Working on reply to your other post, but just
got this eCard( couldn't get it @ work due to filters)
from H.

Front said - You Will Always Be My Valentine
This is wording he wrote:

• I will always consider you my valentine. I don't want to get too mushy here but. Thank you for all the nice gifts for my valentine. It means a LOT !!.
  Have a wonderful day.

I Love You

H
Love Always,
H

What do you think /your opinion?

bump

I didn't know what to say, Gal...

I think it is lovely and uninformative. You know him, I don't. What do you think...that is what matters.

He loves you. The ol' "always have, always will."

You gave him lots of cool stuff for V Day?

LA

Yes, was lovely. What I wanted to think was response to what told him shortly after dday-- "that he NOT tell me “I love you” unless / until such time that you can honestly, truthfully, with your whole heart say it & mean it like a husband, & marriage vows we took" but know in my heart that's not case.
Yeah..gave him movie & candy know he likes, card & replacement container to hold his heart meds around his neck.

Have response to post - will do when get home shortly.

Hope you V-Day was great one!

Here goes - may have missed few, just let me know which ones.

Sorry right back atcha for your trigger. Cell phones. :::: I'm sure the inventors did not imagine them to be used for such evil, did they? I swear, it is the #1 tool for infidelity.

Never know – maybe was man invented them just for that purpose in mind!

Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?

• We’ve had cell phones since we in pouches about the size of man’s shave kit, due to H work
  & at one time they installed phones in autos, which is when his company started paying for phones, then just paid for his, but were allowed to keep my phone on company bill to get better minutes plan/price.

I got over mine pretty rapidly. Funny, because that is how our great anniversary date began. The ending to it, last night on our way home, we were talking and H says, "Well, how did I get over being addicted to OW?" I could have dropped through the floor of the car. It was my own technicality, of course..."I believe you said that you were addicted to a fantasy, not a person." I held my breath. "Same thing, right?" Uhmmmmm...not in my book, huh?
See, I discovered I was a love addict...addicted to my H. Virtually swallowing him to fill myself up. So, me being addicted to him and working it out has been something new to us. When I am very affectionate, he says, "Is that real or the addiction talking?" Well, I work through that, also, because it is a good way not to backslide.
So, him saying he was addicted to HER, well, that bottomed me out. He couldn't see the difference. I maintained, breathed, listened and repeated, but the answer to his question was, "Well, your addiction was going to cost you your family. I believe that's how you conquered it."
"Oh, yeah. That's right."
OHMYGOSH...anyway, lovely time. Thoroughly enjoyed 26 hours together, and was relieved to get to work today.

Okay, back to you, Gal.

About your son and marriagebuilders.

"When started few weeks ago & he asked me about it - I explained about Love bank, LB, En, etc. & told him there was a site that could explain it better & that I also had books that I'd be glad to show him, along with stuff I had printed out. He's not a reader, & hasn't seem interested, but will mention it to him again & show him this time."

I can really see the natural enabler in you showing here. He can search out what he needs...which is a strong Plan A. If he doesn't, his choice. Don't mention it again unless he asks. You've told him there is a way to combat infidelity and save a relationship. His choice.

• Never thought of myself as a enabler – natural or otherwise. – more like a problem-solver!

Was he planning on marrying her ever? Was he still test driving after making a family? Not bashing...just wondering.

• Yes think he was planning on marrying. He’ s not had a job in about 4 yrs. Has sent resume, filled out applications, but even when he’s been honest about his jail time, didn’t get hired. Not making excuses, just facts – don’t think the “sells” himself in interview, use to making it on his good looks/charm, & his attitude.

"She decided to leave - said she would not came back to son in this house." Did she really pack up and leave or is just planning to?

• Ya’ got me there – she took some of her clothes other night, was putting ones off sofa been there minimum of week in plastic bag, made statement that she that wouldn’t be able to take all stuff & didn’t feel like doing this right now & when I offered to bring boxes from work, she said she didn’t want to deal with it. Will see. So guess have to say at this point she’s just taking what she needs.

"My H seemed to resent me also & actually seem to think it was something I did on purpose, not something I couldn't control. Sure weight contributed, as well as my nose - have deviated septum ( cartilage / bone in nose) so only breath thru 1 side nose. Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain. Maybe could have it done now along with alittle plastic surgery on my droopy eyelids & bags under my eyes"

How did you feel about him creating that resentment for you? You believe it is not something you can control and your H believed you could do or try stuff...what do you think now? I wonder if you think I'm nuts for making a big deal out of this...

• I really hate/hated it – especially since was one of his favorite stories was how I snored so loud could here me thru the wall. Or one where he had ear plugs & industrial ear protector & still woke up him
  No I don’t believe my snoring is something I can control, any more than person can control coughing except to hold it in, which doesn’t always work short of surgery, which still gave no guarantee would stop it. Did try number of things, him wearing ear plugs, Breathe Rite strips for nose, etc. Still think the same now.
  No, don’ t think your nuts, just not sure of your reasons, but trust will enlighten me.

"Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain."
How much pain did the growing apart without affection/SF cause? I don't think this was the only solution, but POJA at least, because it was important enough to do something about it. Remember in Lovebusters...annoying habits? They were important enough to be called lovebusters for a reason.

• Caused way more pain than operation. Guess was truly honest, related it to leaving the toilet lid up or squeezing toothpaste in middle , just have to figure / learn way to deal with it. Mine was always to make list of good / bad points, & good always seem to out weigh bad

Our own POJA on H's snoring is that I get to sleep first, which is tough sometimes, as H can dose off in 30 seconds and I might take 10 minutes. Used to be hours, though, so I've been working it down myself to get it into a reasonable amount of time. Can't wait til I hit 30 seconds. That's my part. His part is to hold off or sleep in such a way as to mitigate the snoring until I'm out like a light. Takes two of us, but it works. No resentments.

And I talked with H about sleeping apart (yes, behind your back, Gal) and he said he definitely got his unconscious touch as a connection--touch/affection is his primary way of feeling loved. We slept in a motel this weekend in a queen-sized bed. He complained that it was too big. Ours is still a double and that touch while sleeping is that much more readily available.

• Made frequent trips early in morning to his bed, but obviously guess wasn’t enough.
  I have to agree about the unconscious touch as connection, even though H hates anyone touching his feet! Then few years before his heart attack in April, 2002, he began having ED problems, H would be really upset, seemed he blamed me so thought was being considerate of his feeling, self esteem & ego, but not initiating as often, but was NEVER because didn't want/need him, just trying to spare his feelings,etc. when couldn't perform as he wanted

I liked your humorous remark about tying it into a little well-deserved makeover. Now that's creative thinking!

"H & I quit riding to/from work together as we'd done for almost 10 yrs - it was our time to talk, vent about our day, etc." There ya go! Big info there, huh? See how the things that really connect us slip past us when circumstances change? Your H definitely connected with you through conversation and presence. That's how he's been connecting to you through this year of separation, too, huh?

• Hindsight is a wonderful (??) thing & at the time my crystal ball was broken !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

• Use to have some really heated arguments, but get things out in open & even cleared up at times ! Besides making up afterward was such fun !!!
  For some reason somewhere along line I quit arguing as didn’t seem to get us anywhere, seemed more like I ; had turned into me nagging (which I detest!) so quit effort as saw no result except me getting mad & upset.

• No sure that he's been connecting to me thru conversation / presence during year been separated

"Simply for him to be willing to discuss situation, to be honest, , quit denying anything is wrong, like "normal" as he's done since d-day. as until then we'll be stuck in limbo. ( maybe good time since what he's just told son's GF needed to make decision. ) Really feel like the bills, house, etc. is leading up to him saying he's chosen OW, that's what my initiation / gut is telling me, not to get my hopes up that will work out, so I won't be as hurt - but have idea will be just bad as d day & day he left."

Notice that you didn't own this as your belief. You made it sound like a truth between you. You believe you will be stuck in limbo until he admits, discusses, informs and owns his affair. He may not see it that way. It is your intuition saying why he is now dealing with house repairs, bills, etc. Not his. You're giving yourself future pain with this belief. You have not asked. You don't know. Please don't do this to yourself.


What if you're right? Then you have twice the pain...you have it now and later. Where is the good self care in that?

And if you're wrong? You will have the pain now and not later, but you may feel as if your H is to blame for that pain. Where is the good H caretaking in that?

• Biggest problem with asking him anything about our situation / relationship, when I do ask he gets grumpy, sorta agitated , &/or says something to effect that we’ve been over it already,
  gets defensive, refuses to answer, or some variation, etc. does no good to ask, if H won't answer

• I ask him what he felt / thought when he sees me. while back & His reply:
  He is looking for the “little girl” he married. Needs to feel about me as he once did – wanting to be with me more than anyone else. Tries to separate guilt, pity, etc. from other feelings

""Most times, complaints aren't to be fixed but to be heard. If you want something changed, you ask directly for it. " Totally agree that is what happened with us"

I believe you guys were really good at this for 10 years in your mutual commute. You knew this and lost it with the routine.

• Agree that is at least part of it..but I didn't see / understand importance it until recently Being rather private person, & always having someone in house was difficult.

"My paycheck is already directly deposited our joint account -- what he's talking about is being about to afford for me to take XX amount out of pay & put in separate account."

So, his part is just saying you've got room to deposit X amount separately? You set up the account and split the direct deposit? I'm sorry I didn't get that.

• With new loan, will lower house note, enable us pay off bills, so will have extra money we have not had, so I will open another checking/savings account , then each week take XX amount out of joint account to put into the new account.

"Does it speak of love to you or control and dependency? How much have you chosen to step on your truth in fear of abandonment?"

I was asking you if him controlling your finances, to this degree, was a language of love for you? Or something you aren't comfortable with but since you fear separating your finances as an act of abandonment, maybe it was that fear that kept it in place?

• Really neither one - just relief as one less stress I've had to deal w/ all the years he's handled bills.

Why am I worried? Well, because until this post, you haven't said what a lot of the causes of your distance really were, I guess. I always worry what people are coming back to--I hold the fear my H had, that it would just be more pain and suffering, like a challenge. How would rebuilding be different for you? What are the differences between then and now?

How would rebuilding be different for you? Different than what ?

• Differences between then & now for me would be that I have learned alot about EN, LB, How relationships should work, all stuff here on MB & put it into practice.

"Thought about seeing if can get H to fill out EN questionnaire.... just need to figure way to word it so he?d more incline to do it. What ya? think? "

I think anytime you approach your partner with an eye to manipulation (getting them to do something you want, even if it is "good" for them in your opinion) is dangerously disrespectful.

I'm all for things in their proper order...

Top priority? Getting out all of "your stuff" into a letter or journal and really seeing it, so you weed out the resentments you created from the anger trails that were done to you.
After reading through this personal truth letter, you get to see where you could have done better with what you know now (not then).

• Working on this one - will take while although already have lots written down <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
  Part of Step One is owning your stuff to your H. This is what I was in the habit, or allowed myself to do...I know better and do better now. Your declaration of your love and belief in rebuilding a thriving marriage comes at the end of Step Two.
  
  Step Two. Finding out his plans, dreams or expectation for your marriage. Where he stands now and his desire. And you stating your plans, dreams and expectations for your marriage. Simply saying where you stand and what you desire.
  
  Step Three. Depending on Step Two, tell him of your excitement about MB and how relationships work and flourish. Then ask him to look it up or say that you can print out ENs for you both and trade them when completed.
  
  Depending on Step 2 and information from Step Three (if he does it), if Recreational Companionship is in his top 10, then I would print out that list and have fun going over it with him, getting new ideas for the policy of undivided attention (15 hours per week). A little fun before the next step.
  
  Step Four. Then Lovebusters (which he has to fill out for you and you for him). This can be tough to do and hear, but a great proving ground for your change. He puts down his belief of what you do and vice versa. Great information--terrible info if you're defensive. I think you get this part really well, but had to caution anyway.
  And it sounds like from you that you've cleared up a lot of lovebusters and he's noticed. You being safe is really important and should be what you own in Step One.
  
  Step Five. If you're both committed, go to MC.
  
  Step Six. Talk about this and ask, respectfully, without argument: "Would like to also include things he's said he was going to do, but has not followed thru on, What his standards, values, principles are - as has ask me if I didn't know he had them - know he did just think they are different now; also has made comments that my standards aren't up to his &/or same." Find out the correct, solid information of what he thinks, feels and believes. Don't take it on assumption, mindreading or judging his actions. Be respectful. If he assumes, mindreads or judges, point out when he does it and calmly ask him not to do that. Encourage him to share his thoughts and feelings and to ask and point out as well. Be safe both ways.
  
  " that in way H is wanting/waiting for me to act / do/make certain decisions???? "
  
  How do you feel about your belief that is what he's doing? Why don't you ask him if he is wanting/waiting for you to act/do/make certain decisions?
  
  
  • Resistance - as feel is so he can avoid guilt, by justifying/ excusing it as my choice/decison.
• 
  
  
  ""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
  How do you do that ??"
  
  
  • Oh, that's a long post, but if you'll remind me, I'll tackle that in my next one, 'k?
• 
  
  
  "I have been able to find addresses for various other clubs around town where he/they attend , & am working on exposure letter." Again, your decisions are yours...but I would have hard evidence of the affair (cell phone records, etc.) before exposing. Unless OW is married (and I read that she wasn't) there isn't a lot of good to come out of exposure if the affair is over. Him talking on the cell phone outside is a good indicator, but to whom? Another OW? A new one? Him buying you a Valentine's Day gift? I dunno. Proof is what I advise, then expose if ongoing contact. Period. Right behind you and glad you're making a list to expose.
  
  
  • Last I knew she was still married, but her H living w/ OW. Could be divorced by now, not sure how I'd find out, although do have her ss no.
• <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
  
  I've also been printing out & reading your post on other threads..finding lots of good advice (& some questions also)
  one that comes to mind is Resentment Timeline..not sure about timeline part. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Will work on it after what you've given me.
  
  Really appreciate your time & patience in helping, advising, & supporting me - help me so much, tho' know I have a very loooooooonnnnnggg way to go!

So many places to start...feels like it is raining opportunities.

Okay, taking a stab:

"Never thought of myself as a enabler – natural or otherwise. – more like a problem-solver!"

I asked you before about this tendency of yours...I think I called it being a fixer and what your belief about that was. Sounds like it is something you like about yourself. This was critical to me understanding why my H feared me so much, and how I crossed his boundaries, and the boundaries of everyone else. Lemme know how the problem solver is working for you.

"Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?" I didn't get where you had checked his records for the solid proof of his A and its current status? Including Saturday's stepping outside cell phone call? Did I get lost?

"Caused way more pain than operation. Guess was truly honest, related it to leaving the toilet lid up or squeezing toothpaste in middle , just have to figure / learn way to deal with it. Mine was always to make list of good / bad points, & good always seem to out weigh bad"

I really respect your honesty here. I don't get a smidgen of you answering the way you THINK I want you to--you're all you, and I just had to admire you for that.

I see where you said the operation had no guarantees to stop your snoring...would that have gone in the bad point pile? How much does symbolism mean to you? The act of having the operation as an attempt to give your H relief might have been big enough so that the results might not have mattered. That would be the guarantee. Because you ascribed it to the toilet seat up category, instead of the daily pain of rejection and disrespect your H might have experienced. See, that would be a brave gesture of respect, "I don't believe my snoring should be held against me, but I see it is very important to you. I love you and will do this to demonstrate that your feelings matter very much to me." Huge act, could not be taken lightly. Afterall, your snoring doesn't bother you. Not a sacrifice (you did try other methods), but an act of love.

Again, I think this is part of what you want to consider in recovering your marriage. This isn't a small issue to step over, right? Lack of affection/SF from sleeping in seperately cuts into filling your H's (and your) ENs.

Guess I'm throwing that into all the steps I wrote about. Those steps may get you to where you want to go...worth looking at what that "where" might look like and require, eh?

"Hindsight is a wonderful (??) thing & at the time my crystal ball was broken!" Hindsight gives you constructive foresight...it isn't there for throwing away. How will you incorporate this togetherness, safe vent time, into your new marriage? There was no blame in what I said--you heard me saying you should have foreseen this. I was congratulating you on seeing it at all, even in your rearview mirror.

"but get things out in open & even cleared up at times !"

Seems like Honesty and Openness (albeit with a few lovebusters thrown in) was in the car with you, also. You emotionally connected for ten years. What can you do now to insure that you remain honesty and open, present and communicative in recovery?

Conversation can be email, too. Different rhythm, still communication and a touch of presence, attention in there, I think.

"Biggest problem with asking him anything about our situation / relationship, when I do ask he gets grumpy, sorta agitated , &/or says something to effect that we’ve been over it already, gets defensive, refuses to answer, or some variation, etc. does no good to ask, if H won't answer"

"H, I want to be married to you in person, not seperated. I feel I have grown and changed and am continuing to do so. I know I can't be the little girl you married, but I know I can be a wonderfully grown woman, best friend and partner. I have learned that people can fall in love with each other over and over again. I've learned the whys and hows of it. I believe in you and our marriage. I would like to know what you believe and how you feel."

What's to get defensive about? Where's the attack? You can hear the question without demanding an answer in it. Why base your actions on his response (or refusal to respond)? You state your truth.

You described your H as being very disrespectful of you. In your description, you sound disrespectful of him.

I am not bashing, but observing...and I could be seeing this through my experience, not yours. When you say, "just trying to spare his feelings,etc." that is being disrespectful because you are attempting to control what you can't and any attempt to do that tells your H that you can and will spare his feelings or only allow him certain ones. It is not that you intend any disrespect at all...you have a belief that you can fix, solve, cure, spare, aid, help, better, enhance, cajole, coax and cause others' feelings. That's where I was going back on another page, I think.

Now I am feeling concern that you'll hear me blaming you instead of encouraging you. It was extremely difficult for me to get how disrespectful I was--heck, I was working so hard to be the compassionate fixer who thought if everyone who hurt me didn't realize it. I had no idea that was true disrespect. I lived with DJ beliefs, handed DJs out left and right and to myself, also. I had a signal, though. I never understood what respect meant. My stepmother would say, "You may not love me, but you da^n well better respect me."

I was so confused. I eschewed the word for half my life after leaving home. I knew admiration and thought it meant respect. It is a tough word. Does it mean accept? Don't oppose? Don't think or act differently than the one demanding respect? What does it mean? Don't be bad, argue, feel disloyal, abandon...what?

What does it mean to you?

Okay...what did you think of all my pushy steps?

"Resistance - as feel is so he can avoid guilt, by justifying/ excusing it as my choice/decison."

What does this mean? People can't avoid guilt--it is an emotion, one that is for keeping us from doing something with bad consequences. Remorse is what we feel when we actively want to amend those consequences. One tries to insure we know and understand what not to do, and the other is comes to indicate that we wish we hadn't and want to correct our actions. Your H may attempt to justify or excuse, but that is his own issue, not yours. Our actions are a seperate truth. How we view them is subjective and an opinion. The actions are mutual facts. Making decisions are just that--making them. He can't make you make them and you can't make them for anyone else. God gave us breath, but before he even created us, he gave us respect in choice. Our choices. If your H chooses not to choose, then he's making a choice. You have to make yours. You establish what you want and choose. Choose marriage. Ask him to move back in when your son moves out in two months. Or one, or whenever you choose.

Btw, did son's GF take your grandchild or is your son her primary caregiver?

Ask your son to find out if they are married by common law and what he has to do to get child support now that they are seperated, if he is the primary caregiver.

Taking action from your own integrity is the respectful thing to do. Taking action based on how another person might or might not respond is manipulation.

Now I feel redundant, realizing you're reading my other threads (which THRILLS me). Do I sound like I'm nagging? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
How do you do that ??"" I ended up answering this in my post to weneedhelp today. You were on my mind so I guess it slipped out. I keep promises, but I don't necessarily keep them as expected.

Question on Resentment Timeline...uhm, that's kinda where I was going with your "get it all out" letter. Coming at you sideways for that one. I bet with what you've written you can pull out all your resentments and put them in a seperate entry, chronologically. This was the very best gift I gave myself. Worth doing before you complete your letter. Talk about them with me here and you might look at your letter with new eyes.

There's no time limit or rush to a finish line, Gal. We only get where we're going by going there. I won't measure your progress if you won't, 'k? You're here, taking just as much time and devotion (and patience) with me. Two way street to mutual growth. And you are very welcome.

LA

LA

Hope you've had Happy Friday !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've made my first list of resentments, like in your reply to Vivivanviv's thread "Our Resentments". Should I post them here for your review?

Weather here is predicted to be cold, cloudy & rainy for the weekend, so I'm going to try & get my errands/grocery shopping done after work today so can stay in all weekend working on my MB stuff for you as well as start on my de-junk / de-clutter house project one of my LBs !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
In fact may be #1 on this list.

Stay warm & have a great evening! Will check here later!

Happy Friday...and brrrr! It is six degrees here, and I have to say, six degrees of seperation between frostbite and not...burrrr!

Sounds like a great plan you have for this weekend. I've got stories to edit and a writers critique group to attend, so my weekend is fabulous for me.

You don't have to post your resentments. What do you mean by first list? Is it all of them?

Good luck on the de-clutter...you can help me with that when we re-carpet in April, 'k?

Stay warm and toasty,

LA

Brrr..6 degrees Gez & I said our weather was to be cold when just gonna be around upper 30-40 for low & high low 50's tomorrow, of course with the wet & high winds will seem much colder! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I did manage to get my errands run & grocery shopping down..even squeezed a short visit w/ my daugher before she left work (she's manager at a resturant)& lucked out as got to see my oldest GD, & my niece too---all in all a enjoyable evening & productive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I said first list as if I understood correctly next step is
"Then you re-read what poured out of you. Dig around a second time for any more of them and add what you come up with. Then you let it sit there for two days. Then re-read once more"

• "I won't tell you the next step because I didn't know it until four days had passed. If you'll do this ...and come back I'll give you the next part. I really appreciate that you see how critical resentment is within a relationship."

I now see how H resentments most likely lead to withdrawal, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have actually de-junked/de-cluttered my sewing/craft room twice in as many years, but unless you were me could never tell it..looks worst in some ways than did before. Will be hard to part with some of things, but know it's one of my H major LBs, so will do it since know won't ever use most of stuff & to be honest I've been tired of clutter for while now myself as barely has path to walk thru..just takes while to go thru it all & decide what will keep besides my books. As my D,& GD were kidding me at Xmas with stuff have back there could open my own fabric store, hobby/craft store & even my own book store!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> H also mentioned it along w/ master BR -which won't take as much to get it back.
Hardest to give up will be all my square dance stuff, as love to dance, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but doesn't look like I'll be doing it anytime near future so will try to sell it on eBay & make alittle bit on it at least.

Figure to start in dining room, since first room see when walk in front door, then kitchen, & den. Know won't get all 3 done, but at least get started & give me incentive to keep going, I hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Will take time out to reply to other post.

Have good evening & keep warm!

How did the decluttering go? We're back into sunny skies and manageable degrees...enough of them so I'm not shivering anymore.

Thinking of you,

LA

Really dreary day here, cloudy, overcast w/ 50-80% chance of rain…kinda matches my mood.

OK, get beverage of your choice, comfortable chair & settle in..this is gonna be long…

Have to admit that since last post I have been on roller coaster ride emotionally, getting very mixed signals from H, very apprehensive & downright scared of unknown of future & my ability to handle it.

Read over & added to my resentment list; come to some surprising & unpleasant feelings/thoughts & insights about myself, beliefs, etc.

Will try to explain what I think I’ve learned in way that is understandable, if confusing at times..just way is in my mind & way I feel / felt at time:

• •Seems I have tendency to have/get idea / expectation of how things will/ should/ want to happen, then get upset/angry/resentful when don’t
  •Feel should not have to ask & if have to, then not sincere….. example if have to remind someone of b’day, then if get gift doesn’t have same meaning, more like duty, obligation ( does that make sense?)
  •Don’t like to have to remind repeatedly to do what to me is “common sense” things
  •Don’t like when told will do something, but don’t follow thru, so doesn’t get done
  •Figured out / realized that at some point I quit fighting / trying, just gave up, kinda shut down out of frustration as only upset me so in order to avoid that
  •Like things to work as should
  •Know I’m been lazy..so much want / need to do, just overwhelmed, but no energy / motivation seems only one willing to do work to get it done
  •Feel entitled to certain things – working on this one still

• ??? could it be I like to feel sorry for myself, that these are really things I do myself ---hope not – makes me out as bad person!! Think I’m back for the Next Step you talked about in your Resentment Timeline!

In past few weeks, between kids situation & getting house refinanced to pay off bills, had lots of contact/phone conversations with H, most initiated by him.
In last week have sensed the following from / in him:
•Sense of relief, relaxing, ease
•Sense from things / way he says that has some plan / agenda
Like –
•Said house note would always be his
•That with house refinanced house note would be less & that if should anything happen to him I could with alittle scrimping be able to handle bills
•Wants to get life insurance policy on him,
•Arrange monthly bills set up so can pay by phone or on-line
•Make sure my car running - get suspension, brakes,etc.fixed
•References to us, mostly in the past tense
•Do know from talking w/ his mother & later in day w/ him that he went out of town to dance last weekend…when I talked w/ him he was in car on way back & eating, said he’d call me back as had phone, eating burger, holding drink & French fires between his legs while driving..so made it sound like he was along, but I didn’t ask if dance partner was w/ him
•Has told me what’s he’s doing, although still avoids contact when if involves OW
•Did make it point other day that was going to dance whether had partner to go w/him or not
•Also did tell me that one that that made him angry with me was my being a pessimist..as he was also one deep down & that 2 together wasn’t good thing!!
Then Yesterday…
•He talked about band we always liked was going to be place we use to go to in March..sorta like was feeling me out, maybe gonna ask me to go ???
•Also, said they were playing at private party in nearby town & friend lives there was able to get him in, but no other details as to when, just that he was getting to go
Seem to get sense that once bills paid & house restored to condition in when bought it , he will be done – not have to have as much contact w/ me as has had in last year about bills, problems with things around house. Maybe like his duty, responsibility will be done.
Son mentioned that he got idea that his dad was going to take/act on advise he gave son’s GF to make up her mind to stay or go…son seems to think he’ll come back home.

I took your advise to ask H. rather than “reading” him so.sent him email ..
To commit to being completely truthful & honest with each other
His thinking in signing V-day card sent me w/ ILU,not once but twice, when I’d requested him not to do so months ago, unless/until he meant it as husband should
Haven’t gotten no reply/response of any kind, not even mention that he even got the emails
Also, noticed he’s been calling me more in past weeks than emailing as use to do to contact me


From your last post:
Decluttering didn’t go as I hoped/planned, got little done, but not nearly as much as hoped/wanted!!
Taking way longer than thought it would, but guess have to remember took while to get like it is, so not going to clear up overnight!! Have to break it down in smaller bits that I can get done, so can see results & stay motivated, not get overwhelmed & give up

From your 2/15/06 Post:
So many places to start...feels like it is raining opportunities.
Okay, taking a stab:
"Never thought of myself as a enabler ? natural or otherwise. ? more like a problem-solver!"
I asked you before about this tendency of yours...I think I called it being a fixer and what your belief about that was. Sounds like it is something you like about yourself. This was critical to me understanding why my H feared me so much, and how I crossed his boundaries, and the boundaries of everyone else. Lemme know how the problem solver is working for you.

• Others, including my H might disagree but to me being problem-solver means that I offer several suggestions /options/ideas on ways could be solved. However, sure at times have gone overboard.
  As to how it's working for me in this situation - not too well as this is way beyond anything ever experienced - when was younger was stronger, had permanent job, sure could make it on my own & pretty sure I'd already filed for D by now
  That said beginning to see that maybe I am / have been, as well as controlling type..not pretty thought or something I really like to admit as never liked “controlling people”, especially wives.

"Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?" I didn't get where you had checked his records for the solid proof of his A and its current status? Including Saturday's stepping outside cell phone call? Did I get lost?

• Cell phone account was in/thru his company – at least use to be as know when house broken into few years ago & son’s phone was stolen, H said wasn’t able to get cell phone records.
  That said, have noticed on bank statement since Aug ’05 that payment has been made directly to cell phone company, which leads me to believe that account for H & my phone is now in H name. Tried to access account for my phone,on line, but didn’t have password. To make long story short don’t have access to account to get cell phone records.

"Caused way more pain than operation. Guess was truly honest, related it to leaving the toilet lid up or squeezing toothpaste in middle , just have to figure / learn way to deal with it. Mine was always to make list of good / bad points, & good always seem to out weigh bad"
I really respect your honesty here. I don't get a smidgen of you answering the way you THINK I want you to--you're all you, and I just had to admire you for that.

• I try to just be me most of time – not say/do what THINK other think I should/will say/do

I see where you said the operation had no guarantees to stop your snoring...would that have gone in the bad point pile? How much does symbolism mean to you? The act of having the operation as an attempt to give your H relief might have been big enough so that the results might not have mattered. That would be the guarantee. Because you ascribed it to the toilet seat up category, instead of the daily pain of rejection and disrespect your H might have experienced. See, that would be a brave gesture of respect, "I don't believe my snoring should be held against me, but I see it is very important to you. I love you and will do this to demonstrate that your feelings matter very much to me." Huge act, could not be taken lightly. Afterall, your snoring doesn't bother you. Not a sacrifice (you did try other methods), but an act of love.
Again, I think this is part of what you want to consider in recovering your marriage. This isn't a small issue to step over, right? Lack of affection/SF from sleeping in seperately cuts into filling your H's (and your) ENs.


Guess I'm throwing that into all the steps I wrote about. Those steps may get you to where you want to go...worth looking at what that "where" might look like and require, eh?
"Hindsight is a wonderful (??) thing & at the time my crystal ball was broken!" Hindsight gives you constructive foresight...it isn't there for throwing away. How will you incorporate this togetherness, safe vent time, into your new marriage? There was no blame in what I said--you heard me saying you should have foreseen this. I was congratulating you on seeing it at all, even in your rearview mirror.
"but get things out in open & even cleared up at times !"
Seems like Honesty and Openness (albeit with a few lovebusters thrown in) was in the car with you, also. You emotionally connected for ten years. What can you do now to insure that you remain honesty and open, present and communicative in recovery?
Conversation can be email, too. Different rhythm, still communication and a touch of presence, attention in there, I think.

"Biggest problem with asking him anything about our situation / relationship, when I do ask he gets grumpy, sorta agitated , &/or says something to effect that we?ve been over it already, gets defensive, refuses to answer, or some variation, etc. does no good to ask, if H won't answer"
I am not bashing, but observing...and I could be seeing this through my experience, not yours. When you say, "just trying to spare his feelings,etc." that is being disrespectful because you are attempting to control what you can't and any attempt to do that tells your H that you can and will spare his feelings or only allow him certain ones. It is not that you intend any disrespect at all...you have a belief that you can fix, solve, cure, spare, aid, help, better, enhance, cajole, coax and cause others' feelings. That's where I was going back on another page, I think.
Now I am feeling concern that you'll hear me blaming you instead of encouraging you. It was extremely difficult for me to get how disrespectful I was--heck, I was working so hard to be the compassionate fixer who thought if everyone who hurt me didn't realize it. I had no idea that was true disrespect. I lived with DJ beliefs, handed DJs out left and right and to myself, also. I had a signal, though. I never understood what respect meant. My stepmother would say, "You may not love me, but you da^n well better respect me."

• Didn’t think I was being disrespectful either – just considerate & compassionate !!

I was so confused. I eschewed the word for half my life after leaving home. I knew admiration and thought it meant respect. It is a tough word. Does it mean accept? Don't oppose? Don't think or act differently than the one demanding respect? What does it mean? Don't be bad, argue, feel disloyal, abandon...what?
What does it ( respect) mean to you?

• Looked it up & this pretty much defines it for me:
  •esteem: the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard"
  •an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"
  •deference: a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean"
  •obedience: behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes"
  •regard: a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect"
  •regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgment"; "We prize his creativity"
  •show respect towards; "honor your parents!"
  •deference: courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy"
  •Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people
  •To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
  •To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
  •To relate or refer to; concern.
  •Used as Noun.
  oA feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem..
  oThe state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
  oWillingness to show consideration or appreciation.
  orespects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.
  oA particular aspect, feature, or detail: In many respects this is an important decision.
  •respect - (usually preceded by `in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect
  •respect - the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard
  •respect - an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"
  •respect - a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean
  •respect - behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes
  •respect - a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect
  •respect - courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy"
  Used as Verb
  orespect - regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgment"; "We prize his creativity

Okay...what did you think of all my pushy steps?

• Actually don’t think they are “pushy” at all, being a Virgo I do like plan/organization, despite fact a lot of time does not appear that I am organized at all !!! Give me something to work from, plan.

“……when your son moves out in two months. Or one, or whenever you choose.”

• Don’t think son intends to move out anytime, at least not in near future – has bird nest on the ground!

Btw, did son's GF take your grandchild or is your son her primary caregiver?
Ask your son to find out if they are married by common law and what he has to do to get child support now that they are separated, if he is the primary caregiver.

• Son keeps child during day during week while GF works, in return understand she will continue to pay his car note/insurance & TV payment as well as give him little spending money instead of paying $600/month to put baby in child care

Now I feel redundant, realizing you're reading my other threads (which THRILLS me). Do I sound like I'm nagging?

• Not nagging at all ! Might repeat same thing in different ways , but as BS feel I need that to clarify see things better, different way, with different eyes in order to grow, improve,etc.

""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
How do you do that ??"" I ended up answering this in my post to weneedhelp today. You were on my mind so I guess it slipped out. I keep promises, but I don't necessarily keep them as expected.

• Need to re-read this & work on it

Question on Resentment Timeline...uhm, that's kinda where I was going with your "get it all out" letter. Coming at you sideways for that one. I bet with what you've written you can pull out all your resentments and put them in a seperate entry, chronologically. This was the very best gift I gave myself. Worth doing before you complete your letter. Talk about them with me here and you might look at your letter with new eyes.

• Oops..just noticed I was to put order chronologically when I didn’t do..but here’s what have so far..seems just when think have all, another will come to mind
  Resentments toward H:
  •Not appreciating & acknowledging that my working thru the years contributed
  •Seeing only my faults, mistakes, things not done, things not doing
  •Comparing me to others , pointing out how they did things, what they did better
  •Not appreciating & accepting me for me
  •Not treating me w/ common courtesy, manners, i.e. opening doors, staying w/ me at functions, making sure had drink, etc.
  •Telling / joking in derogatory manner about private things, even after asking H not to do so
  •I went to his softball games out of town & in, for years, even tho' truly did not like sports & yes LB'd often voiced that my dislike, but only after requesting number of times that would help if he'd be willing to at least compromise by taking me somewhere on the out of town trips that I enjoyed. Few times he did was very begrudgingly, acting agitated, grumpy, etc thus ruining it
  •Treating others with kindness, consideration
  •Understanding other point of view,
  •Not helping around house, without having to be ask - that was woman's work
  •Running me down, belittling, demeaning me/my abilities, etc. w/kids, especially son thru years
  •Not presenting united front w/ son
  •Not making son do chores, help around house
  •Not allowing son to take responsibility, experience consequences & be accountable for his actions,
  •Raising son w/ double standard & exactly opposite of how did daughter
  •Not asking or seeming to care how my day went.
  •Insinuating that my job wasn't hard, stressful, etc., since I all did was sit at desk all day
  •Allowing trival things that he chose not to disclose in clear, direct manner something bothered him & let them fester into much bigger problem
  •Making choice to leave without giving any reason(s) - just " about him, not me", loved me wasn't in love w/me" just a "few little problems
  •All deceptions, lies, etc. - including when say/do something knew would give/lead to certain impression / conclusions
  •Violating my love & trust
  •Stealing my hopes, dreams, stability, safety
  •False assurances, when ask if /what problem - that OW & he were/are "Just Friends"
  •Not even giving me / us chance to work on problems issues
  •Rejecting me without giving me chance or any reason
  •Leaving after 40+ yrs to be alone, without any affection, love, security, just for p$$$y
  •Not even wanting to disclose / discuss our "few little problems" after being separated over year
  •Leaving me in limbo
  •Breaking promise & marriage vows
  •Changing the rules without letting me know he had
  •Saying he had principles, values, standards when he has gone against all he ever said he believed in, taught kids was right,,
  •Taking away my being able to retire & live comfortably, enjoy traveling, dancing, etc
  •Not doing upkeep / maintaining house - nothing preventative , only when broken / something wrong
  •Saying will / is going to do something, but not following thru with actually doing it
  
  Resentment, Frustration, Anger At Myself
  •admit. I think I resent myself, my stupidity and gullibility, my own trust, more than anything now
  •Thinking I was being grown up, mature adult by dealing with things he said/ did that didn't
  •like,..especially the trivial ones like leaving toilet seat up, squeezing toothpaste from the middle, by
  accepting the things I cannot change; having courage to change the things I can;and wisdom to know the difference
  •Although he is one made choice/decision not to disclose in clear, direct timely manner the issues/problem so that I knew their existence or importance, betrayed my love trust w/ lies, deceit, deception, false assurances, lying by omission, finding someone else..yet somehow I am to blame, it is my fault, should have know his complaints were actually his way of saying problem !!
  •Seem to put everything else - softball, work, dancing, etc. ahead of me - didn't feel I was "first" or a priority in his life

Hope were able to make it thru & you didn’t fall asleep trying!
Also that I was able to express myself in way that enables you to understand what I was/am trying to say…should you have doubt know you will ask me !! Am eagerly awaiting your feedback to this post!
Suppose to close on house Monday so I took day off. H said we’d have lunch to celebrate!
Working on note asking him what he sees/thinks needs to be done to house, in what order and what his timeline for getting all done. Not sure if should include in it fact that he’s said this about house before but failed to follow thru with actions – guess that might be a DJ, LB ??? ( Will post it for your review & comment before give it to him)

Feel I have/am learning a lot about myself, how I think, etc. wasn’t aware of before, some I admit don’t necessarily like, but at least now getting to honest truth & how others (& H) saw/see me!!!
Owe this to you, your insight, willingness to help, patience
& experience..thanks!

PS - Can you explain how to listen & repeat - I have a really hard time with trying to do it, but think/know would really help if could learn to do it well!!!!

I have chai tea and crangrape next to me...a blanket over my lap...thanks for the warning. I LOVE that you posted a long one.

"??? could it be I like to feel sorry for myself, that these are really things I do myself " Big, gigantic kudos on realizing something really important. Now, get to the pay off...why does feeling sorry for yourself comfort you? Mine? Well, if I wasn't getting attention, consideration, appreciation from others...then I will give those things to myself, in a really tortured way--feeling sorry for myself admitted I was real, I existed and was entitled to stuff. Which meant, when I was building up all the resentments for the shoulds, have tos, ought tos that I assigned others, I wasn't giving myself what I wanted in the first place. I was trying to milk it out from them.

I focused on what I deserved and then did that for others so they would do it for me. How indirect is that? I wasn't giving it to myself at all!!

Resentment made me feel right...had that logic to it. Letting that go, stopped focusing on what others didn't give me (in the way I wanted them to and WHEN I wanted them to) and began giving directly to myself.

Attention? How am I feeling? What am I thinking? Where's my focus? All that says I am and I matter. No judgment...just information. "Will this choice make me feel better or worse? Add to my respect or diminish it? More attention and now, consideration. No judgment. And each question I ask shows I appreciate myself, that I matter. For every time I ask, "How are you doing?" to others, I better be asking that of myself.

"---hope not – makes me out as bad person!!" Just want to point out the super important part above...NO JUDGMENT.

That was key to stopping me making new resentments. In your standards, make the tenet "I will not judge others nor myself." In your boundaries, "I will not allow others to judge (define) me." That takes care of a whole lot of resentment right there!

Have a problem with that no judgment thing? Well, you don't allow yourself to judge others (good/bad). You do allow yourself to judge their actions (mean/kind/loving/hateful). See the difference? You make mistakes but you aren't one. Same for them. You don't total up your judgments of their actions and then judge them good/bad. They are as wonderfully made, with their own purpose, and loved by God exactly as you are.

"Think I’m back for the Next Step you talked about in your Resentment Timeline!" Well, let's go over that awesome truth you posted:

"•Seems I have tendency to have/get idea / expectation of how things will/ should/ want to happen, then get upset/angry/resentful when don’t"

Seems...your truth or are you unsure? Is it what you really do inside your pretty head or are you guessing?

I think it is your truth. I just want you to own it.
"I allow myself to expect a certain result and then allow myself to become angry or resentful when the results aren't what I wanted them to be." Very human. No bad in that. Only thing, you allowing, choosing to do this, seems to hurt you. Why do that? Where's the pay off? Not just feeling sorry...how about security?

I used to believe that if everything went as I planned/expected/worked for...then everyone would be happy and I would be safe from ridicule, being wrong or thrown away. Can you get from your statement to your feelings? If things do go your way, then you feel what? Accepted? Good? Worthy? Safe?

Having those expectations, allowing them in yourself, then is a roll of the dice, don't you think? You'll either end up right or...unacceptable, bad, unworthy and exposed for who you are. Ack. Ick!

"•Feel should not have to ask & if have to, then not sincere….. example if have to remind someone of b’day, then if get gift doesn’t have same meaning, more like duty, obligation ( does that make sense?)"

Of course you make sense. Don't ask. You're stating something very personal and your truth. Don't let my comprehension come into play--heck, if I have to work for it, that's me. Now, what were you saying?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, in this resentment, you allow yourself to expect that others mindread and do it accurately. Is that right? When they get it right, you feel what? I'll use mine (I sooooo did this, too)...accepted, worthy, seen and understood, considered, loved, cherished, imporant...on and on. Same stuff as the first one, really. Okay. But...if you choose to remind them, then you didn't get those marvelous feelings, right? They were tainted...because then you "MADE" them accept you, which took away the worthy, the seen and understood because you had to make yourself seen and understood, considered, loved, cherished and important. Huh. Look at this belief...you can make yourself all those things by reminding. You can give yourself all those things. Huh. Good to know, huh! No expectations involved. You do this. Your power. Your human power.

Now, pretend you already are accepting yourself, know you're worthy; consider, respect and pay attention to yourself...how important is it that others do that? Did the ratio do something to your feelings? You're already getting the result you want without others being responsible for that result...hmmm....getting the results you want, without the roll of the dice, possible disappointment, resentment or feeling sorry for yourself.

Where's the downside?

"•Don’t like to have to remind repeatedly to do what to me is “common sense” things"

Common sense is a judgment. What is logical to you is not to others. It is a misnomer. Not your fault. You're walking through your living room and your son has left his guitar right in the middle of it. You have to walk around it. Common sense would say, anyone would have to walk around it. Real life says...your son may walk through the living room and pick it up, play it, and put it down in the same place. He didn't have to walk around it...he wasn't going into the kitchen. See the diff? Common sense is full of assumptions, mindreading and is a disrespectful way to live. We are raised to believe the opposite. It bond us into a common purpose when we were all created unqiue with a seperate purpose.

Common sense deprives us of our choices. Unless you choose to let go of common sense. That you can see the consequences of actions (stepped on guitar, damage, personal injury) does not mean others must act on it. What you forsee might be valid, but the future ain't here yet. What is underneath common sense is a craving for consideration. Your truth is that you hate that guitar not being put away. You make it known that when it is put away, you feel considered and respected. An act of love. You hear what your son believes and how he feels. You can choose to pick it up and put it where it belongs. You cannot choose to make him do so. You can choose this to be boundary of yours, given your fears of what can happen if it remains, and enforce your consequences (you pick it up and put it in the garage...next time, the garbage...next time donate it to goodwill). Those are your choices. Enforcing them is your responsibility. You accept this as your choice. Your son must know your limits in order to respect them. His choice in how he does that. No manipulation, just choice of action.

You create your own resentment by choosing to repeatedly ask for respect to your boundaries when someone continually crosses them. You do not enforce them progressively (remind once, then act in a predetermined way). You're doing this...not them.

"•Don’t like when told will do something, but don’t follow thru, so doesn’t get done"

Ahh, I'm still working on this myself. Trace this resentment back...far back. Broken promises, where others failed your expectations as a child...all those feelings you had...going to the park then not; learning you can't bank on what loved ones promise...holding tightly to do what you promised, even if you hated doing it, and then resenting them for you following through. Hating yourself when you made a threat and then didn't follow through on it, or did, because you saw it as a promise, an unreasonable promise after it was made. Lots of your reaction to them not fulfilling a promise is yours.

My H is passive aggressive. After I figured out my emotional reaction to his promises was all mine, got into the mental place that I could not force him to agree and then not act, stopped asking him for anything and gave it to myself...guess what? He does stuff. He makes promises to me and holds himself to them. It was his problem that I couldn't solve. I could only stop myself from trying to get him to consider, appreciate and give me security. I accepted he chose. He consciously chose. I'm working to the stage of being able to ask for stuff again...but slowly. Not from what I need him to give me, but what he has shown he enjoys or feels good about. And let me tell you...a lot of praise and admiration from me to him for each and everything he completes that he chose to do. Tons. Valid and sincere admiration. Even what I didn't consider important (for me) but realized was important to him. I gave acceptance and am now receiving it, from myself and him.

"•Figured out / realized that at some point I quit fighting / trying, just gave up, kinda shut down out of frustration as only upset me so in order to avoid that"

You chose to shutdown, not state your thoughts and feelings, quit wanting what you wanted because you weren't getting it, and disconnect to protect yourself. Very common reaction to failed expectations. Instead of examining your expectations, you focused on the results and what feelings those gave you, then fixed that. Funny, but you're almost there in that route, but for a wholly different reason. Your emotions give you information from your beliefs...you believe that killing your want will stop your expectations, which will stop the resulting feelings from failed expectations. Nope. Your emotions will hand you resentment, anger, frustration anyway. Why? Because you are lying to yourself. You still believe others have to fill you. As long as you believe that, you will get those resulting emotions.

However...once you change your belief, you will not expect others to give you what you need because you will be doing that for yourself. So you won't have the resulting emotions from failed expectations...unless you aren't giving yourself what you need. By lifting this extreme burden from others, they will fall out of pattern themselves.

What they choose in how they act towards you will be theirs...out of your control. How you act towards them, from your code, and not gut reactions, will be different. Instead of shutting yourself down, you open yourself up, feel the freedom from the pattern of disappointment, nurture yourself--love that overflows from you (because you're loving yourself full) spills over everyone without a single selfish demand or DJ. Love because a gift you are living. Think of the possible results...they are mind blowing.

"•Like things to work as should"

Already addressed. I know you get this. All shoulds, ought tos, have tos, etc. are of your own judgment. Accepting what is, when you release yourself from the myriad expectations you've had your whole life, is new. Everyone is new. Including you. No shoulds are possible. What is, true reality, is amazing, delightful, filled with freedom and brimming with gratitude. Whole new perspective.

And no resentment.

"•Know I’m been lazy..so much want / need to do, just overwhelmed, but no energy / motivation seems only one willing to do work to get it done"

Self judgment...when you shut down your wants and desires to stop you from getting the resulting negative emotions, you pay a price...emotional lethargy. You are betraying, destroying and attacking yourself when you shut yourself down. Can't be good. When you measure others, read their minds for their motivations, feel their actions or inaction is aimed at you...then you are also attacking, destroying and betraying yourself...and them. No respect of seperate realities or humanness. No room for love, acceptance without judgment...no corner is safe.

In your standards, "I will not judge others nor myself" energy will return. You are safe from those old feelings. You have taken action to make yourself safe in a most authentic way. What you won't allow yourself to do to others, you won't allow you to do to yourself. Period.

Balance.

Where your focus is, so is your life.

"•Feel entitled to certain things – working on this one still" Within your pattern of expectations, shouds, why can't they, and why isn't its...doesn't it seem reasonable to feel entitled? If you are doing for others what you want done for you, then wouldn't entitlement be the resulting feeling? Just telling yourself to switch from entitlement (bad) to gratitude (good) won't work...you still have the same beliefs. I should be treated as I treat others. You're not alone. This Golden Rules has urinated on us for long enough. Golden Rule is fine for what it is...without human interpretation. But we believe it is promising us a good life because we add...THEN we'll be treated as well as we treat others. Bad deserves bad. Good deserves good. Nope. Why?

Because we're humans and have no control, ever, not in the past, present or future, over anyone else.

Golden Rule meant...figure out your code...what you won't allow yourself to do to others, what you won't allow them to do to you, and certainly, what you won't allow you to do to yourself.

Balance. Integrity. Common sense? Nothing common about it. Respects everyone to choose their own code given what means most to them. Period.

Okay...end of first response. Breaking this up. Hope you're on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((((((TGal))))))) Thank you so much for posting all of this. You are helping me in many ways through your own journey. I treasure your self honesty and do not judge you.

LA

Yep, I'm here
Gonna get a tall glass iced tea & settle in the read
your "first" response. Sounds like a "second" response will follow!! Hooray!
Just occured to me:
Always valued honesty, as long as didn't try to hurt others..seems one have been least honest with is myself !

Check again soon!

Whew...

I read down through your observations and readings of hubby to this on decluttering:

"Taking way longer than thought it would, but guess have to remember took while to get like it is, so not going to clear up overnight!! Have to break it down in smaller bits that I can get done, so can see results & stay motivated, not get overwhelmed & give up"

You're living a metaphor, TGal...physical decluttering gave you this insight...which could be exactly what you were needing on resentments. All your changes in you, your realizations and your actions. Yes. This is perfect perspective. Use it in all ways about yourself.

I am not ignoring all your H-related list. You show you're being carefully aware of his actions...that you are forming the seeds of the belief he might be cleaning up his life and divorcing. That your son believes the opposite. Both are guesses. When you asked, you got no response. All this means is...you don't know about him. Return your focus to you for now. Once you really get into a new belief system for you and your life, then all of your observations might look different. If they don't, you can act on them with informed choice and choose a balanced response now knowing why you feel what you do, react when you do, and who you are and your code.

I appreciate you going back to other posts and responding...you do keep your promises. I see that.

"Others, including my H might disagree but to me being problem-solver means that I offer several suggestions /options/ideas on ways could be solved. However, sure at times have gone overboard."

My belief is that fixing/problem solving is disrespectful. This is an extreme belief because I was an extreme fixer. I did not see my disrespect of others. That every time I offered a solution, worked towards one or told someone how to do something when they had not asked me for that information, then I was telling them they were not capable, not human, that I had no faith in them and they were stupid.

Ouch. Surely I wasn't like that?

Yup. Thoroughly and ignorantly. My H would share a problem and I would hear that he wanted to not have it. First DJ. I would also hear he couldn't solve it otherwise he would be telling me the solution. Second DJ. I would then supply him with a solution to stop his pain. Third DJ. I trampled on his autonomy and instead of giving him support and acceptance, I tore him down. Fixers destroy others. Pleasers destroy themselves and others.

Listening and repeating is where I began my journey of respect. "I hear you say that __________, is correct?" No advice, hence no judgment. Just me hearing him. He wanted to be heard. End of what my code told me I had to do. First step I'll share with you. Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.

90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution.

So, offering any advice or solutions when they are not asked for is already overboard. Consider how far overboard then you were when you went even farther overboard.

"As to how it's working for me in this situation - not too well as this is way beyond anything ever experienced - when was younger was stronger, had permanent job, sure could make it on my own & pretty sure I'd already filed for D by now"

Then you know why God didn't give you this when you were younger, strong, more independent and just as ignorant of what your part was...he loves your marriage, you and your H, and wants you both to grow joyfully and intimately. Had you ditched the marriage before, you would have taken your lovely but destructive fixin'/pleasin' person into your next relationship and had the same results, would feel all the pain (and that of the divorce) all over again, and maybe gotten to here. To now. That didn't happen. God be praised. I believe that's what he means when he said no more than you can bear. We just can't see it in context.

"That said beginning to see that maybe I am / have been, as well as controlling type..not pretty thought or something I really like to admit as never liked “controlling people”, especially wives."

We will feel anger in ourselves when we see others doing what we do. Otherwise...won't really faze us. Great signal at self-examination. Use that tool to know yourself more.

By the way...I am not telling you to eliminate your controlling, judgmental, self-betraying parts of yourself. I'm asking you to acknowledge all of you...the cruel as well as the loving; manipulative as well as optimistic. I want you to know all that you have in you and why you have those traits. Then for you to accept them as you and why you don't need to act cruelly, manipulatively, controlling or any of them. Find out what they give you, what feelings and beliefs you have...then you'll understand. You are wonderfully made, acceptable to God. And to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your own self-judgment is toxic to you. I'm reading it over and over again. Others love you more freely than you love yourself. Because you made them responsible for you, they can see your worth when you can't; can feel your love when you can't; and accept you as you are, but you CAN'T.

My job is to show you...you can. You're fully capable. Nothing defective about you, TGal. There's joyous living down your dirt road, Ma'am.

"To make long story short don’t have access to account to get cell phone records. " Because you have a cell phone on his account, you can call the company and request hard copy billing records sent to your address, going back to the month you choose. Try it. Or you can have the password changed and sent to your phone (Tmobile) for access.

"I try to just be me most of time – not say/do what THINK other think I should/will say/do" Here I have to challenge you. I hear a lot of your filter coming back to me that says you judge yourself from the outside in. Could be my own filter doing that. Just want you to consider it closely.

I see next that you posted two really long, wordy, verbose paragraphs I wrote and I couldn't find your comments in them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Did you just want me to see how long I take to get to my point? :::: I know this. I do. I'll try harder. I get such acceptance from you because you seem to be okay with my laborious style. I allow myself to go round Texas and back to get to my point. I'll change that, 'k?

"Didn’t think I was being disrespectful either – just considerate & compassionate !!"

What do you think now?

"Looked it up & this pretty much defines it for me:
•esteem: the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard" "

High regard from whom? Now, I'm taking on the dictionary because I believe, like common sense, and the way we were raised, are detrimental. How you define something is yours...you're going to define it that way anyway. That definition may change. It did for me.

High regard of himself...from sticking to his code. You can't make anyone respect you...it is their choice. That's how God set us up.

"•an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"

Now this is what I believe is the most common definition of respect...and it isn't. It is admiration. That's different to me.

"•deference: a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard;"

This is closer to my definition of respect. I recognize that you are seperate from me...have your own perspectives, beliefs and feelings. I accept that and will not judge you by my own beliefs. That is courteous and true in my words and deeds. I choose to defer to your opinion...that means that I receive it as your own and do not judge it nor attempt to change it because I believe differently.

"•deference: courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy"

You say you want privacy, I give it. But we're not married. Heehee. You say, "Stop saying that," I will. Not because you changed my belief or I think I'm out of line...but because you told me you didn't want to hear my belief. I accept that. I show respect. Course, by saying that, I know I was heard. Easier for me in that case, eh?

Ahhhh....relief!!! Wedged in the middle....

"•Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people"

Yes, yes...yes.

Thank you for all of those definitions...melding together, and straining out the admiration ones...I do think that what I wrote to you about fixers/pleasers being disrespectful is valid. Lemme know what you think.

"Don’t think son intends to move out anytime, at least not in near future – has bird nest on the ground!"

Ahhh, but where is your choice in his intentions? His has his own and you have yours. What are yours?

(This is such a big issue, I'll understand delaying any further answers until after the resentment timeline is complete, and all the self stuff I've brought up.)

Wow...now I see where you give me your resentment summary. Oh, boy...whole 'nuther post there. In fact, I'll wait until you read my answering post before this one to get to that.

Jumping to your last request (after your gracious encouragment and appreciation...thank you)...

You have faith so it will work for you. Listen and repeat?

H - "You make me angry when you look so sad!"
TGal - "I hear you feel anger when you see my sadness, is that correct?"
H - "You pressure me with all your questions. I don't know the future anymore than you do."
TGal - "I hear you feel pressure when I ask about our marriage and the future."

I don't believe your H says stuff like this, but my imagination is in short supply this morning. I'm trying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H - "That is a load off my shoulders, this closing on the refi today. You are a high maintenance woman, TGal. Always wanting me to be different."
TGal - "I hear you feel relief that we closed today and that you believe I take a lot of effort to please. I hear you believe I don't accept you."

Later, after you're really good at listening and repeating...you'll get to listening and sharing what you heard, through your filter...only after you feel safe to do this:

H - "You always think I'm not going to follow through."
TGal - "I hear you believe I judge your actions before they happen, is that correct?'
H - "No, it is not what I believe. It is what you do. You make me do stuff I never wanted to do at all. Just can't stand to see you unhappy or angry at me. You have really high standards and I'm only human."
TGal - "I'm hearing that you see me as a demanding woman who holds you to her high expectations and doesn't accept you do not want and desire the same things."

See the territory you go into...not arguing that his words are wrong, but putting them into your own context. You still do not involve these words: but, no, wrong, right, mean, disrespectful, etc. No judgment. You're there to hear correctly. We all have filters, triggers, buttons...that's within our own domain to know. This builds your nonreactive muscle, where you jump in and defend...which isn't respectful or helpful. You begin to hear the distance between you...that this is what he feels and believes and that you have your own. Not the truth, his and hers.

I end a lot of my repeat statements with, "Good to know." This is a segue for when my H says simple stuff, "I hate brocolli" with a response instead of silence. Silence doesn't tell you that you were heard. "Good to know."

Brush up in your head...you know what your H says..I don't. See his opinion and respond to it. Before, you respond as a fact, not an opinion.

Behind you, TGal. I'm happy about your lunch, too. And all of your growth, ponderings and effort you're putting out on your own behalf. Being here makes a difference, doesn't it?

((((())))))

LA

I'm switching to ice tea now, too. I was raised by texans. I know the beverage. Heehee.

"Always valued honesty, as long as didn't try to hurt others..seems one have been least honest with is myself !"

You are not alone...same thing with me. Oh, what a realization. No judgment, just was what you did. Just was what I did...til I knew better.

You go, Gal!!!!

LA

Woke up with these on my mind felt needed to post them,not sure why, just my intuition /gut feeling...

Realized that if I am truly honest w/ myself that I am

• A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal

• Do not deal w/ rejection well

• Need acceptance, validation from others

• Change myself into what need to be to please at time

Know that insecurity most likely comes from not having sense of safety, security as child, due to dad’s drinking – mostly on weekends. Not paying bills, stuff being repro’d, cut off, , no food, etc.
Remember at about 7-8 took matters into my own hands, by taking money out of Dad wallet when went to sleep/passed out, & gave to my mother to pay bills, buy groceries, etc. when she wouldn’t/couldn’t/didn’t do it
Also when learned needed to change in order to please./ get by. Dad was strict, but not always consistent
Don’t remember Dad ever saying I wasn’t good enough, etc., just got that impression.
When drinking did at times become verbally abusive. His mother was one that verbally abused me most – she was very family oriented, I was oldest gc, but was girl so wouldn’t carry on family name, thus wasn’t worth much.
Realized later in life
that I did not respect my mother which said to me I was bad as God says to “honor thy mother & father”
that both did best they knew how & that wouldn’t be person was if didn’t have childhood had.
That Dad taught me how about real world things – how drive, fix car, etc.
Dad also gave me my love of reading, encouraged my curiosity, inquisitiveness
Mother more about people, love of music, dancing, etc.

Remember her always saying ..”what will / would people / they think about…..” & “how would you feel if you were them” my response was always that I didn’t care what other thought..& in my younger days really didn’t care, at least regarding some things.

• No idea what makes me or how to be happy other than being w/ H

• No idea what my boundaries should be, much less how to enforce them

• Not sure what my beliefs, truths are

Sure these “insights” will help me at some point, not clear at moment however.

Who is author of these..
The Purpose Driven Life
The Seven Principles of Marriage;
The Dance of Anger?

Thanks!

Wow, TGal...

Look what I missed.

And then you go and stump me in your next post. ::::

Okay, I give up...who are those authors?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that Gottman is Seven Principles of How Marriage Works...but I've forgotten the others. I'm sorry! What would I have won?

Now, back to the awesome post...the one where you woke up, looked inside, shared it and began yourself truly new again on Sunday. Good day for it, don't you think?

"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"

You've had to work your butt off to not appear shy, very reserved and fearful, haven't you? You had to create someone else...closely resembling you in many ways, but better, different...to cover all that up. Because of the shoulds you told yourself, and from others...

Alcohol is funny...it is like being raised by two Dads...and that variance alone will give a child that need for stable security...every child wants to know what's gonna happen...with alcohol, we want to know not to be delighted, but be prepared...see the difference?

"Then what happens?" in stories, in living, childlike wonder and excitement...gets replaced with, "please no, not again, just this once's"...see the difference? Doesn't make you shy, reserved...but fearful...and if you feel more protected, less vulnerable by being invisible, less noticed the better, then your fear manifests you.

You took from Dad and provided to Mom. This most likely is where you got that work ethic I was probing you about earlier...where it becomes imbalanced, imperative, no alternatives or choices...having to do what you gotta do kinda gal. No matter what...you wanted, needed or was prepared for. Funny thing is, no matter how much you prepared for life, each moment, you were repeatedly surprised at how much surprise you kept feeling...

Lemme me know if I'm walking off away from you, here...my journey was very similar, only with its own twists. You said "his mother" so you had a grandma living with you? I did. Might be where I got that.

As for now, you're awake to a lot of this, feeling it...in your mind, hug that little girl and kiss her, because she was whole, complete, not a thing wrong with her, wonderfully made for a purpose...and she still is. All that we accommodated in ourselves, denied, ignored or judged bad about us...wasn't true. That was outside human influence because they couldn't see what a wondrous work of God they were...or others. You're right...they didn't know and they were as caught between the shoulds and shouldn'ts, without knowing about...

The I am.

I got the impression of not being good enough because I wasn't enough for my Dad and Mom not to drink for...to not split their personalities, pass out around the house, or wake me up in the middle of the night to put to bed. I wasn't enough...or they would have stopped.

Same thing on being two girls with no one to carry on the name...felt inadequate. Gee, and my Dad didn't appreciate me having two boys out of wedlock with his last name...go figger. (Yeah, showing you my own choices in life had a lot of variables, but one of them I used was what you mentioned.)

We learned if our beliefs and thoughts were different from our parents, then we weren't honoring them...and we all know where that will get you! Yes, yes, TGal...I'm still wrestling with that today. Very insightful of you; gutsy admissions all around.

And that no, what others' thought was their own, and yours was yours, and that has surfaced and dived, surfaced and dived in your life, hasn't it? Have to be accepted, not rejected, to be validated and exist...so others need to be what reflect you, but then you're subjected to what they choose to reflect...needing but hating yourself that you need and trying to not need instead of change the belief...

because we didn't know, did we?

We knew all the should nots and shoulds and none of the know hows or know whys...least I didn't...so confused...doing the best I could with what made sense...and growing up in chaos (reality being very different than what I wished it was)...well, nothing much did make sense.

Now we can make sense...God brought us to this point in our lives, maybe several times attempting to make our way clear, but we couldn't see it...we now see that we need clarity to see, our falseness from what is real, in his creation that we remade...develop that code of our very own...finding out what we believe, both in the child in us and the adult (and all those us's in between), and choosing our beliefs, making our standards and boundaries, and then living from them...in the greatest relief, brightest honesty and openness, which we can't help but admire in us, appreciate, consider ourselves, and cherish ourselves...

created as we were, by God, marvelously...

and be accepted by our selves truly for the first time, giving God reason for rejoicing in our freedom to choose.

We choose us. We choose him.

We are no longer fearful, unaccepted, evaluated, judged, rejected, unworthy, valueless...because we aren't, and we refuse to treat others that way or OURSELVES.

Gotta run...gonna be thinking of your post all day.

LA

!!!Warning – Long post! –lst Part
!!!!Proceed w/ extreme caution! Venting, Ranting, Exasperation,Frustration, etc. ahead!!!!!

I feel like such a mess ! All the unknowns are really driving me nuts- need some answers!!
Really hate in action causing; not being able to physically do some of things need to do before can get started de-junking/de-cluttering, etc. so don’t do or get much of anything done..
Earlier in week ask son to help me today, said he would, but he just left w/ his GF & his daughter to go somewhere! GRRRRRR!!!

Have hard time accepting myself – that I’m worthy, lovable, matter - I look in mirror & see a fat , wrinkled, old, person, rejected I hate getting old , not able to do things want/need to do!

Okay..calming down some…here is what have so far…more to follow….

Still trying to absorb, understand a lot of what you’ve told me…been thinking, pondering it a lot…all your post seem to cause that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Took day off Monday,2/27 , for closing on refinance, then lunch w/ H. All went well, if I LB's, was, I hope, minor. Do believe, from several things said yesterday & when he called this am, to let me know has guy coming on on 11th to give us evaluation/cost estimate of a/c & heat unit.... that de-junking/de-cluttering house, is extremely important to him for some reason, since he keeps mentioning it in various ways, have decided that I will devote as much of my time & energy as possible in the weeks to come as way of meeting what appears one of his ENs. ( In days shortly after D-Day, I finished a plan I'd started to get this done, where took a room or two, depending on size, amount of de-junking/de-cluttering to be done, each month. In effort to get quick visible results will get obvious stuff out first, saving stuff like drawers, etc. for later on when majority of stuff is out. Also prayed that I was willing to do / give up anything to get H back) Promise, I'm not doing this with any expectations, just a tiny bit hope & a prayer for strength, energy, motivation, strength, etc. to get it done !) Really will be nice to have neat house again & make easier to clean & keep clean...I am really excited about getting started, something to keep me busy, work toward that will give me satisfaction & sense of accomplishment when finally done ( been at it off & on for about 3-4 yrs now)
Down side will be that in order to get it done, wouldn't have as much time to read/post here as have tendency, especially on weekends to get on & read for hours.
Hope H stays excited / interested beyond getting major stuff immediate stuff done, but gut/instinct tells me otherwise..…has been complaining a lot lately about his mother’s habits driving him crazy

"I have chai tea and crangrape next to me...a blanket over my lap...thanks for the warning. I LOVE that you posted a long one."

• I bought some Chai & some Green tea, but haven’t tried it yet..read that helped when on diet – I’m trying, but not having too much luck, enough will power, etc. being ole’ fat Texas gal figured need all help can get !! Goes w/ the big hair! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

“...why does feeling sorry for yourself comfort you?

• Have to think about this one some more, as all of yours sound ‘right one’ for me as well ......first thing that came to mind was I deserved / was entitled to it, been mistreated, lied to… have long way to go to break old habits !

"Attention? How am I feeling? What am I thinking? Where's my focus? All that says I am and I matter. No judgment...just information. "Will this choice make me feel better or worse? Add to my respect or diminish it? More attention and now, consideration. No judgment. And each question I ask shows I appreciate myself, that I matter. For every time I ask, "How are you doing?" to others, I better be asking that of myself."

• You make it sound easy, but I’m really not getting it ..by my asking myself these questions & determining answer will give me the attention, consideration, appreciation, etc. for myself been trying to get from others instead of building resentments for them not ….without judgements of myself or them ???

"Have a problem with that no judgment thing? Well, you don't allow yourself to judge others (good/bad). You do allow yourself to judge their actions mean/kind/loving/hateful). See the difference? You make mistakes but you aren't one. Same for them. You don't total up your judgments of their actions and then judge them good/bad. They are as wonderfully made, with their own purpose, and loved by God exactly as you are."

• “Judge the sin not the sinner”!

"•Seems I have tendency to have/get idea / expectation of how things will/ should/ want to happen, then get upset/angry/resentful when don’t"
"Seems...your truth or are you unsure? Is it what you really do inside your pretty head or are you guessing?"

• Yep, that is really what I do inside my pretty head…best illustration can use like have a script & go over all the possible things could happen, really knowing I have no control on others, yet feel secure / happy, then am disappointed if doesn’t happen & a lot of times turned out better than thought would. I am scared to be happy, every time am something always happens to jerk rug out from under me…that’s reason I’m pessimist, if expect worst, then I’m always surprised & happy when good things happen !!

"I allow myself to expect a certain result and then allow myself to become angry or resentful when the results aren't what I wanted them to be." Very human. No bad in that. Only thing, you allowing, choosing to do this, seems to hurt you. Why do that? Where's the pay off? Not just feeling sorry...how about security? "

• After thinking about this - not so much that I get angry or resentful as I am really disappointed & depressed

"I used to believe that if everything went as I planned/expected/worked for...then everyone would be happy and I would be safe from ridicule, being wrong or thrown away. Can you get from your statement to your feelings? If things do go your way, then you feel what? Accepted? Good? Worthy? Safe?"

• I felt that then I knew what to expect, safe, secure

"•Feel should not have to ask & if have to, then not sincere….. example if have to remind someone of b’day, then if get gift doesn’t have same meaning, more like duty, obligation ( does that make sense?)"

• To my way of thinking was more like whatever I had to remind of, then it was not given "freely , from their heart / "giver"

"•Don’t like to have to remind repeatedly to do what to me is “common sense” things"


Common sense is a judgment. What is logical to you is not to others. It is a misnomer. Not your fault. You're walking through your living room and your son has left his guitar right in the middle of it. You have to walk around it. Common sense would say, anyone would have to walk around it. Real life says...your son may walk through the living room and pick it up, play it, and put it down in the same place. He didn't have to walk around it...he wasn't going into the kitchen. See the diff? Common sense is full of assumptions, mindreading and is a disrespectful way to live. We are raised to believe the opposite. It bond us into a common purpose when we were all created unqiue with a seperate purpose.

Really gotta’ work on this one “common sense is a judgement” as you’re right was raised to believe should have common sense – at least enough to come in outa’ the rain."

• Do understand that what is logical to me is not or the same to/for others. Logical may be a better way of how I see common sense, along w/ being pro-active, consideration responsible??? If see trash can needs to be emptied, take it out before overflows instead of just ignoring.

"•Don’t like when told will do something, but don’t follow thru, so doesn’t get done"

Ahh, I'm still working on this myself. Trace this resentment back...far back. Broken promises, where others failed your expectations as a child...all those feelings you had...going to the park then not; learning you can't bank on what loved ones promise...holding tightly to do what you promised, even if you hated doing it, and then resenting them for you following through. Hating yourself when you made a threat and then didn't follow through on it, or did, because you saw it as a promise, an unreasonable promise after it was made. Lots of your reaction to them not fulfilling a promise is yours."

• Yes, it goes way back to early childhood..parents, especially my Day was always saying we do something / promise something, but rarely followed thru with them. Keeping my word has always been important to me ..won't promise if I have any doubt I will not be able to keep it.!

• Some of them where not things I tried to force / make/ manipulate him to do, most were things he thought about doing / simply said he would do, just never bothered to follow thru on….. being that he is a procrastinator

"•Figured out / realized that at some point I quit fighting / trying, just gave up, kinda shut down out of frustration as only upset me so in order to avoid that"

You chose to shutdown, not state your thoughts and feelings, quit wanting what you wanted because you weren't getting it, and disconnect to protect yourself. Very common reaction to failed expectations. Instead of examining your expectations, you focused on the results and what feelings those gave you, then fixed that. Funny, but you're almost there in that route, but for a wholly different reason. Your emotions give you information from your beliefs...you believe that killing your want will stop your expectations, which will stop the resulting feelings from failed expectations. Nope. Your emotions will hand you resentment, anger, frustration anyway. Why? Because you are lying to yourself. You still believe others have to fill you. As long as you believe that, you will get those resulting emotions.

• Not sure get this – please explain more.
  Is it that if I don’t have expectations of others, won’t be frustrated, disappointed, angry, etc when fail to meet those expectations??? Wishfulness of how like / want it to be ???
  Somewhere my spirit, spitfireness,spunk,fight was lost

"•Feel entitled to certain things – working on this one still"

• Gee & it felt so good to be entitled! Sure I'm not? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Others, including my H might disagree but to me being problem-solver means that I offer several suggestions /options/ideas on ways could be solved. However, sure at times have gone overboard."
My belief is that fixing/problem solving is disrespectful. This is an extreme belief because I was an extreme fixer. I did not see my disrespect of others. That every time I offered a solution, worked towards one or told someone how to do something when they had not asked me for that information, then I was telling them they were not capable, not human, that I had no faith in them and they were stupid. Ouch. Surely I wasn't like that?
Yup. Thoroughly and ignorantly. My H would share a problem and I would hear that he wanted to not have it. First DJ. I would also hear he couldn't solve it otherwise he would be telling me the solution. Second DJ. I would then supply him with a solution to stop his pain. Third DJ. I trampled on his autonomy and instead of giving him support and acceptance, I tore him down. Fixers destroy others. Pleasers destroy themselves and others.

• Way you explain it understand how is disrespectful being "fixer"/"problem-solver" is& boy, did/am I guilty of being way overboard on it big time. Still working of the "pleaser" tho'..

"Listening and repeating"

• Need to do this with what H said about restoring house to be sure I understand clearly what he meant

"Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.
90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution"

• Totally believe these !!

"By the way...I am not telling you to eliminate your controlling, judgmental, self-betraying parts of yourself. I'm asking you to acknowledge all of you...the cruel as well as the loving; manipulative as well as optimistic. I want you to know all that you have in you and why you have those traits. Then for you to accept them as you and why you don't need to act cruelly, manipulatively, controlling or any of them. Find out what they give you, what feelings and beliefs you have...then you'll understand. You are wonderfully made, acceptable to God. And to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />"

• I thought I had done this years ago, but see hadn’t, so will try to figure out for another post..should be enlighting!!

"Your own self-judgment is toxic to you...."

• Yep, I know I judge & expect more of me than I do of anyone..hard to stop lifelong habits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"My job is to show you...you can. You're fully capable. Nothing defective about you, TGal. There's joyous living down your dirt road, Ma'am"

• Boy,do you have your job cut out for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"I try to just be me most of time – not say/do what THINK other think I should/will say/do" Here I have to challenge you."

• Operative word here is “try”..I do do this more often that I like to admit as not something I am pleased / proud I do

"I see next that you posted two really long, wordy, verbose paragraphs I wrote and I couldn't find your comments in them. Did you just want me to see how long I take to get to my point? :::: I know this. I do. I'll try harder"

• Nope, wasn’t to show you that at all..simple “oops!” on my part

"Didn’t think I was being disrespectful either – just considerate & compassionate !!"
What do you think now?"

• I see now how I was in fact being disrespectful! Working on stopping all my DJs!

"Respect..
"•Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people"

• This is fairly close for me

"Don’t think son intends to move out anytime, at least not in near future – has bird nest on the ground!"
Ahhh, but where is your choice in his intentions? His has his own and you have yours. What are yours?"

• See only 2 choices for me - let him stay, figure out way for us to co-exist or figure way to live w/myself if ask him to leave knowing he has no means of support, place to live, etc.& losing him forever. Working on this, but failing for now! If truthful w/ myself - if had guarantee was keeping H away he'd be gone!

"Wow...now I see where you give me your resentment summary. Oh, boy...whole 'nuther post there. In fact, I'll wait until you read my answering post before this one to get to that"

• Eagerly awaiting your insights & comments on what I see as resentment - sure will prove interesting & thought provoking!

".....not arguing that his words are wrong, but putting them into your own context. You still do not involve these words: but, no, wrong, right, mean, disrespectful, etc. No judgment. You're there to hear correctly. We all have filters, triggers, buttons...that's within our own domain to know. This builds your nonreactive muscle, where you jump in and defend...which isn't respectful or helpful. You begin to hear the distance between you...that this is what he feels and believes and that you have your own. Not the truth, his and hers."

• Listening & repeating...think this for now is the most helpful advise. Not sure what to make/how to fit in the last part -"Not the truth, his and hers." Wouldn't that be the truth, just truth for each of us?

From 1/28/06 Post:
Okay, I give up...who are those authors?

• The Purpose Driven Life Rick Warren
  The Seven Principles of Marriage; - John Gottman, Ph.D
  The Dance of Anger?- Harriet Lerner

"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"

• Forgot to add selfish in some ways, but not like is meant most time when referring to only children
  had to grow up to fast

"You've had to work your butt off to not appear shy, very reserved and fearful, haven't you? You had to create someone else...closely resembling you in many ways, but better, different...to cover all that up. Because of the shoulds you told yourself, and from others..."

• You nailed it --you're crystal ball finally came in!.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> did/do alright most of time until run into someone that intimidates me for whatever reason(s), makes me defensive, feel vulerable, etc....so thru years put up/built alot of walls to protect myself from the disappoint, hurt, pain, rejection..didn't/don't trust alot of people, very few get "in" past walls...one of reasons my H leaving has caused me so much pain, anguish, etc. - he was only one I ever felt I was able to simply be "me" with, without judgement, loved unconditionally, etc. felt safe, secure etc...H was my world for 40+ years!!!!
  Alot of the "shoulds/should nots" where drilled into me by my parents, how was suppose to/not act,behave, react, etc.

"You said "his mother" so you had a grandma living with you? I did. Might be where I got that."

• No, thank goodness she didn't live with us..Remember when I was 8-10, my dad saying one time that he could only stand to be with his mother for few days at most & thinking how sad. Wasn't until I was much older I understood all he meant by that statement as well as alot more of the things he said

Hope you're still awake..my mini bio didn't put ya' to sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Will take me awhile to incorporate alot of what I'm learning about myself into change..Some of this thought I'd dealt with years ago..guess really just push it away, but it in box,covered it up or something instead... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Truth hard to deal with..
Since doesn't appear will get much of de-junking/de-cluttering done like I wanted & hoped to do..will work on my list of what I think was my H ENs I failed to met, my LBs, DJs, etc. for tomorrow post.
Forgot to thank you for your continued help & support, & putting up with me! God will bless you!

Thanks for the warning!! LOL...I don't put one at the beginning of my posts...you see my screen name then it HAS to be long.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What a lovely treat, your post.

Your humor is terrific. I had a smile all the way through and two full chuckles. Thank you!

(See humor as admiration? I admired your humor...sincere and unasked for...so it will mean something to ya...but think about humor as admiration and how much in your life you worked to make others laugh and therefore like you. Do you tickle yourself?)

I'm no declutter expert, but I have an idea...what if you reversed what you were trying to do? What if you moved what you wanted to keep into your barest room, and then had all your kids and H come over and haul out the rest from all the rooms (sight unseen by you...you'll be at the spa) and have a garage sale. Whatever doesn't sell gets donated.

Like an amputation. The key would be that you get out only what you KNOW you've used in the last year. That's it. Anything else is gone. All sentimental stuff has to be boxed and stored or distributed to children in their own boxes.

Since you've been at this for 3-4 years, I figured a new way, a major surgery, would be painful but not too painful. Now, three weeks after all this, you will miss something and need it. Accept it. Go without. LOL

And please set in your mind you're doing this for you...only you. You are taking control back from your house; you will be supremely satisfied and feel a lot of self worth and respect when it is accomplished. Things are things...people are people; one is stuff and the other priceless. You are priceless. Things aren't money...we convince ourselves to hold onto (yes, I do) things because to replace them costs us. They don't cost us our love, gratitude or acceptance...they cost us our self image, image to others and what DJ others to think of us. Worth getting rid of all of that.

You will be giving yourself gifts--freedom, promise kept, lightness of being, a clean slate. Those are worth things you will miss one every two or three years...you'll miss them for a moment and then not.

Fear of loss...I've had that my whole life. You know what I lost in our move from AR to CO? 25 years worth of my writings...kids' journals...short stories...poems. Irreplaceable. I thought I wouldn't get over that. I have. It's taken five years, but I'm there. So what? I was lucky to have written them, ever. Anything like that in the rooms you're trying to declutter? Something that valuable you can't bear to part with?

God has been trying to teach me about handling loss for many years. In AR, we were broken into seven times. Talk about loss, repeatedly. I didn't get it. Until it was my own fault. I've reached for those stories so many times...they are a part of me, and maybe someday, I'll redo them. Don't know. Won't be the same way. Maybe better. Learn the lesson, TGal...it is there for a reason.

If it is facing the guilt for all that you've spent on this stuff...embrace that guilt. Guilt is not living up to other people's expectations...shame is not living up to your own. Memorize that. Find out what expectation you have that someone else gave you...what voice is in your mind when you look over all the square dancing paraphenalia...and what that voice is saying. If it is not your own, let it go. We hold comments from others about other events that no longer apply. We put that voice in our head and can bless it and ignore it. Follow your own judgment, with an eye to being new...new for a new marriage, self-image, solid self-respect and totally accepting love of yourself. Be ready and it will happen.

All the above was me coaching myself on doing the same darn thing in two months. ::::

See? You're not alone!

As for H not following through...I'm tying that to having to remind about your bday...

When what they do or not do is not your problem...when you do not expect them to do half, their share, pull their weight...then anything they do becomes a gift, doesn't it? Not asked for...sincere and acceptable. Accept others, TGal. That's the road I took to accept myself.

Same with bdays...make it the day to celebrate God's creating you (though he did long before that day); make it about being happy, shining and alive. Others may or may not give you gifts that day, but they will notice you as the gift you are.

If you're not there yet to do this, plan your own bday dinner party and invite family and friends three weeks in advance. That's not reminding...that's inviting.

Whatever you choose...love yourself anyway. Making resentments isn't showing love to yourself, is it? That's like drinking drano and waiting for the other person to die.

"Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.
90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution"

Totally believe these !!"

Then apply these beliefs to your H, your children, coworkers...commit having intimacy in your code...what you do, regardless of how others react. Another way to love yourself and build your self-respect.

"Do understand that what is logical to me is not or the same to/for others. Logical may be a better way of how I see common sense, along w/ being pro-active, consideration responsible??? If see trash can needs to be emptied, take it out before overflows instead of just ignoring."

Take logical out of the picture for a minute--what you choose to believe, put that in its place. If you believe that others should see the trash and take it out, where is that beliefing harming you?

Your clutter, accumulation...whenever you are not pro-active, considerate or responsible (and these may be extremes in yourself and encompass things that require no proactivity, consideration or what you're NOT responsible for)...then you will kick the livin' daylights out of yourself...feel down and depressed and not know why. You will feel worthless, not good enough...and wonder why.

Because you will have the same information handed to you (emotions) when you disappoint yourself as when others disappoint you. What a way to live, huh? So much work in judging, punishing, promising not to be bad anymore...let it go, please.

Get your code written down...and be specific as to its limitations. You have a great need to control to feel safe...from what? From your own emotions? If son doesn't do what he said he would, you feel _____. You are doing it to yourself, TGal. You are worth more. Same thing for when you don't do something (you keep promises to others but NOT YOURSELF)...you're human. You are allowed to let the trash overflow if you need to prioritize something else instead...because taking out that trash can lead to four other things on the way out and in...and then there is no time for that one thing you were going to do in the clutter room, is there? Allow that there are no rules to follow--you decide. No one is inspecting your trash in the middle of the night and writing reports. I promise.

If it is your mother in your head that won't let you sleep until X,Y & Z are done...then kick your mother out of your head...bless her and send her on her way...this is your life, your choices...be well pleased with them, 'k?

And your father's voice, too. Your pessimism comes from one of your parents...would you choose it if I told you that optimistic people live longer, fully lives? Have less physical ailments and disease? Would you choose to be safe or happy? What if happy feels really unsafe?

Optimists define their results...they find the donkey under the pile of manure. Pessimists walk by, pointing at the crap and judging the optimist. They walk into doors and get splinters that way. Pessimists rely on others to prove them right by being wrong...and things to go bad so that they can secretly be happy when they don't. Pessimists cannot be intimate.

Lemme know what you choose.

You're a loving woman, TGal...gotta call you on this:
"Yep, I know I judge & expect more of me than I do of anyone..hard to stop lifelong habits."

When we overheard adults say this, "Oh, he's harder on himself than I could ever be!" this sounded like a good thing, something safe, wouldn't accidentally do damage to others if we were too busy being mindfully punishing ourselves, right? Guess what...this belief gives you license to injure and stab others, innocents, as long as you beat yourself into a coma. Not a really great belief to have, huh? Now, if you attempt, which pleaser/fixers do, to not injure and stab others and still allow yourself to beat yourself into a coma...you can't. Not possible. Standards (inner beliefs) demand balance. What you do to yourself, you do to others. What you do to others, you do to yourself. God's protection in his creations...and his lament.

My belief...being hard on yourself...judging, punishing, evaluating, criticizing...means that you will be that to others. Choose. Not. To.

Good example of this...you hate that your H would "try to do stuff" but not do it. To try is to lie. Remember that. It's a truth. Now, read what you wrote here:

"Operative word here is “try”..I do do this more often that I like to admit as not something I am pleased / proud I do"

See what "double standards" now mean? What you wouldn't allow for your H via your expectations, you allowed for yourself...to try is to lie. Choose which way you're gonna go on this and know that you do or you don't...no trying.

Hard concept...think of it this way, "I tried and failed." Nope, you did and failed, right? Big difference in how we hear ourselves. You did something and it didn't meet your expectations; no trying involved.

Prefacing this with...I think you've got a lot within you that takes priority, rather than your son's living arrangements, but I brought it up from your end, your growth and ownership of what you want in your life. Your answer isn't about his reality, but yours:

"knowing he has no means of support, place to live, etc.& losing him forever. Working on this, but failing for now! If truthful w/ myself - if had guarantee was keeping H away he'd be gone!" You have been in the way, harming your son for a long time. He has means of support...himself. He can find a place to live because he has friends and network, but he's afraid to use it because he's learned from you he's incapable. You cannot lose him forever...all of these are your beliefs but not truth. You don't know. You can do a lot to your kids and be loved anyway. God set it up that way. I've been disowned three times...and had to leave home at 17 because my folks wanted time to themselves without kids, and we weren't allowed to move home again. I love them anyway. I've wanted to stop many times, but God doesn't really make it work that way. You believe you'll lose him forever, when you only live in the right now. Envision him hugging you, crying, three years from now, telling you he finally believes he is lovable, complete, capable and acceptable and you showed him how to be himself. You respected and honored him. Different idea, huh?

And just to let you know where I'm coming from on the no means of support or a place to live...the first time I was disowned was because I was pregnant out of wedlock..choose them or the child. I chose the child. I was homeless and had no job, ended up at a Motherhouse and built my life new again...then homeless for two years while waiting for housing...all survived. What you may judge for homelessness is your belief...but my experience was very different. Made a ton of mistakes and I was 21 years old. Your son can flourish. He is loved by God, also.

And no, you're not alone in this dilemma...my 16-year-old is in the same boat, in a way. He feels incapable because every time we have done for him, it told him he was helpless, useless and incapable. Learning that now. No idea how he'll change that belief. But I have faith he will, and flourish.

Now, leave all that aside as you ponder what you are exampling to your son and what you can do for yourself.

"Listening and repeating"

Need to do this with what H said about restoring house to be sure I understand clearly what he meant"

Double bonus....you learn to really hear by repeating, and HE feels heard. When we feel heard, we feel accepted. Unless we aren't trying to be heard, but trying to get a certain reaction. Note that about yourself when you feel not listened to, 'k?

"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"

Forgot to add selfish in some ways, but not like is meant most time when referring to only children
had to grow up to fast " Okay, my turn...I'm not understanding this.

Big hug, (((((TGal)))).."how was suppose to/not act,behave, react, etc." You did the best with what you believed then and now, as you change those beliefs, you will do better. I'm only asking you to stop believing you have to be any different than God created you...to believe you can't earn love; you are loved. To know that you're acceptable and don't have to "do" things to be that way; to understand your behavior, your choice of action, will be from your code, and not react to others from your feelings...no one makes you defensive...you feel that way. Might be a huge hairy guy with a club who walks up to you, and your expectations give you all those yucky feelings...before he says, "Hello, Miss. I'm looking for the library. Could you direct me, please?"

See the power of what you choose to believe? Huge! Immense!

If you chose to believe that all people were created by God, are whole, complete and wonderfully made...how shy would you be? If you chose to believe that others' choice of actions were not based on you--not the cause, control or cure for them--would you be reserved? Or would you be fascinated? Free?

See, forcing yourself to act like you aren't shy is remaking what God made...not really respectful, huh? But changing your beliefs about the world...there is honoring God!!! He said "Love your enemies" and your neighbor as much as yourself. You've skirted that commandment because you weren't loving yourself too well...how much love is in fear? Release your fear by changing your beliefs...you believe if you hold back you won't be hurt...but time and time again, you've been hurt.

Believe you will be hurt at times. Believe you control your expectations and prefer to accept than expect. How much hurt is in that? None!!!

That your H was the one person you felt just you with is lovely. And a burden. My H felt the same way. A blessing and curse in one, huh? You give all your intimacy to H because he's who you're safe with...you don't even feel safe with yourself...doubles the burden and the gift. Also creates the expectation that he will feel the same, believe the same with you, and to the same degree. Whoa. Triples the burden/shame/failing your expectation. He's not you. He's him. Respect will aid in your reunion. Seperating that, feeling more comfortable with others will change this and be freeing to everyone, 'k?

You can do this. You're already doing this with me. Yippee! That was a sincere, spontaneous outburst, if you coudn't tell.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You've mentioned more than once that a lot of this you got years ago and then lost. God will bring these things to you over and over again until you get it. He's a great enabler, isn't he? Is that lightning? Naw...he's all patient and persistent. Part of his tough love and respect program. Up to you to really get it this time through. Have those great lights going off inside of you that say, "Yes! Yes!" and usually, they are longed for. Like a homecoming.

Truth hard to deal with--and you're doing it. You can do hard, easy, uncomfortable and downright soul-ripping. You've proven that. Know it all the way through you.

Pain is necessary...part of being God's creation...Suffering is optional...our choice.

Pain is growth...suffering is silly and stymies us.

Blessed by God and your presence, TGal...

LA

P.S. Guess I taught you what "long posts" really are, eh?
Thank you for being in my life.