Sorry so long, ....
But figured needed a little background....

Married 39 yrs, dated 4 years off & on before married...
We had met when we were 14 yrs old in a square dance club, but after getting married we quit. In September, 2002, we got back into square dancing..something we both enjoyed as we got exercise, had fun, and also got to do alittle traveling. ( I'd been trying to get him back in it for years!)

I was not able to go with him..couldn’t keep up and work a stressful, demanding full time job & had few small health problems.

In April 2003, my husband who up until then had always taken very good care of himself, played fast pitch softball, exercised, etc., had a heart attack and actually died twice in one day. He had 4 stints put in his heart, but made a very remarkable, fast recovery. He was told he needed to exercise..he jogged, walked, etc., but decided that square dancing was a lot more fun,
but decided that square dancing was a lot more fun, so he began dancing about 5+ nights a week, with Dr blessing.
He even amazed his Drs.; who said really couldn’t tell he had ever been sick.
In fact off & on since then he has made statement several times that he did have heart attack & died twice, but no one seems to think anything changed.

Dr told he needed to exercise..he jogged, walked, etc.,

About this time that one of student s in our club class, graduated and taking next level of lessons at another club, where my H danced. She was a fast learner & good dancer. My H dances every dance & I’m not able to, she often went with us, dancing ones with my H that I wasn’t able to or if she didn’t go he would dance with other single ladies at dance. Over the next year they danced quite a lot together ..she being able to do all the twirls, special turns, move that I’m not able to do. I was not able to go with him..couldn’t keep up and work a stressful, demanding full time job along with few health problems

I was not happy about this, but didn’t feel I could voice too much complaint since he was dancing for exercise for his health…afraid if he didn’t dance to exercise & anything happen I’d never be able to live with guilt.

As time went on I watched when he danced with her he seem to be having more fun and enjoyed dancing with her than when he danced with me.
(Yes, I was very jealous & voiced it loudly angryly (ps?) !!)

On March 1, I woke up with pain in my neck, shoulders & arms that turned out to be a herniated disk in my neck & took me until June to recover enough to dance.
There is a resort in Colorado that offers a week of square dancing during the middle of June. Since I’d miss work and then only able to work ½ days for my recovery, I didn’t think I was in position to ask for a week off to go. Figured we would have to wait until next year. My H emailed me at work about week before date to go & ask what I thought about him going..he hadn’t had day off since his heart attack ,would be a nice break & what did I think about his going? I was busy, didn’t give it much thought, & emailed him back that guess was ok..asking who his partner would be if I didn’t go? His quick response back was her.
I was crushed..1) that he even considered going without me and then to take someone else. Besides my not working full time for several months put a dent in our budget, besides cost for me to go & what I’d lose by not working that week while gone. Never mind that I had just taken the last of my 401K money out to help out. So of course we couldn’t afford for me to go.
Guys I worked with at work found out about my wanting to go on the week long trip and managed to arrange for me to get time off..without pay, since I work contract, but they took up collection & gave me $100 when told me what they had done. I was so excited..just knew he would be too! He didn’t seem as excited as I thought when I told him. At first he thought it would be with pay, but when he found out it was without pay, actually saw a look of relief cross his face. That was his out! Since I wasn’t getting paid for the week off from work, then I couldn’t go..it would cost us too much. So off he went.
Naturally I was very deeply hurt, jealous & angry. When I expressed my feelings & concerns replies were what I see now as just false assurances that all was fine with us, that I should just get back to "normal" etc.

I’d began to realize that he hardly talk to me when he was home, when I ask him a question he replied with short curt answers, or he replied with hint of anger just below the surface in his tone of voice.

Didn’t seem to be enjoying himself when he danced with me and other little things.
Around the end of September '04 I’d had enough one night…in tears I ask him why wasn’t talking to me, giving me the “silent treatment”, treating me like dirt under his feet..what had I done? That I didn’t deserve to be treated like he had been. His answer was he didn’t know why & when I pressed him said not to go there.

Think I then ask if it was he didn’t want care about me any more & he said he’d always care about me, but could tell from tone in his voice that it wasn’t like he truly felt anything special..like a husband. I wasn’t prepared for his answer when I ask him if he wanted to call it quits after 38 yrs & go with OW, or whoever..he replied that he didn’t know what would make him happy. When I said something about his acting different for quite a while ( since Colorado in June) he said that he’d felt like that..not knowing what would make him happy for much longer.
I ask what I had done or not done & he said he wasn’t me.

Tried several times after this to get him to talk/discuss things but never did.
Then once again I had enough & finally I sent him email a week or so before Christmas, requesting that he set aside some time on Sat. Dec 18, for us to sit down & discuss some issues.

When we sat down he said he knew what I wanted to talk about. I said, “what do you think I want to talk about? Tell me.” He said, “that he loved me but wasn’t ‘in love” with me!” That he had felt that way since before his heart attack and had been faking it / playing role since then

Said he had to get the “****** outa’ here” .Said he was confused, that his thinking is cloudy & get his ****** together!” & was “searching for something to build on going forward” Told me that he didn’t have answers to the questions he knew I had.

Sent me emails 2 days later telling me :
“not to give up us yet”
that “You are a most wonderful person that I love with all my heart”
that he “loves me so much””
“just don’t give up on me”
that “it’s not over between us”

On Jan 19,'04 when I came home from work to find a note that he had left..was staying at extended stay hotel for week to be alone to do some serious soul-searching, etc. before going to his mother’s to stay.

Needless to say that although I am normally a very strong person, who was capable of handling myself in crisis very well, taking control, etc. but found that my world had collapsed & everything I had believed & trusted in was gone, had no control, etc. Finally realize this was not something I could handle alone or with just help of God…went to Dr. for anti-depression meds.
Shortly after he left, I told him that I was detaching with love & setting him free& would accept whatever choice / decision he made. Also laid out some ground rules..that any contact would have to come from him., etc.

It's been a year ( on Dec 18th) that got the "love you, but not 'in-love' with you" speech and will be year on Jan 19 that he left.still has not been willing to discuss issues, etc. that lead us to where we are. Has repeatedly denied that he & his dancing partner are anything other than “just good friends”

At the beginning he'd ask me about once week to lunch as worked close by; said that he considers night at our square dance club as “our night”; but these have stopped. Still
comes to house to see our new grandbaby & the baby’s parents ( our son), ( all grown) emails or calls ( Told him early on that contact would have to come from him, unless something about house, car or our kids).

To me the most surprising thing is that once my initial round of tears begging & pleading,etc. had passed, I have been able for the most part, to hold it together & remain calm, fairly level headed & reasonable, etc. when I have talked to …totally out of character for me under circumstances of being so devastated & deeply hurt, & betrayed..I normally would have completely lost my temper & lashed out in terrible anger! (Know this is God’s hand in this..without a doubt!!) Not to mention my jealousy!

I somehow knew almost immediately that I was willing to do any & every thing I could to improve our relationship and save our marriage, but that this was something that would require guidance & what only could come from God. He gave him to me as my husband 38 yrs ago and only He can restore, improve our relationship and save our marriage.

God has really blessed & guided me so far on this journey. As within days after I was told, I was searching the Web for any information.. when He sent me a website on “Mid-Life Crisis”…newcomers information gave stories of women going thru almost exactly what I was and also from men going thru it. Seems all our guys are reading from the same script..as all seem to say almost the same things !

Most of the “crisis” seemed to have been triggered by a very traumatic event in the guys life…like his heart attack & his dying twice in one day.
I quickly realized that what I must do was to turn him over to God and let go..to “Let Go & Let God”. That I needed to walk in failth & not by “sight”. I’m really trying but very difficult. I also knew that I must set him free to go , which I told him and that I would abide by whatever choice/decision he made.
As I said, I am willing to do whatever it takes to improve our relationship and save our marriage however long it takes. To me, this is the part of our marriage vows, “ for better or worse” & is like a sickness, disease, etc. & I would hope that if position were reversed he would do same for me.

It has been my past experience that things happen for a reason, and that God never shuts a door that He doesn’t open a window somewhere. I truly believe His hand is in this and am trusting that it will be revealed in His time & will be His will. That He is guiding, helping both us and hears all the prayers on our behalf!

Although it was not a easy decision, but because I so love him so very much, knew I must set him free to do what he feels he must do and have told him I will abide by whatever choice/decision he makes.


I am willing to do any & every thing I can to improve our relationship and save our marriage.
However, although he's verbally given indications that it's not over between us, his actions give indicate that it is in fact.

To be quite honest...in order to keep house, and be able to stay in it, would have to depend on his financial help with mortgage payments, utilities as well as other debts. Just two days after got speech he did state in email to me .."not to worry about making it financially, that was his worry ( he's paid bills, etc for about the last 10-12 years) & that he would always take care of me.

Questions:

Since almost a year now since he left & we've been separated,..
Is it too late to try Plan A
How do I carry out Plan A, if have no idea what our "few little problems" were, since still refuses to discuss them?
If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I begin to change ?

Welcome any & all suggestions, advice, as well as prayers !

Just got home from work short time ago & have to admit, I was disappointed that although looked several had read my post, no one had offered answers to my questions,or any help, suggestions.
Thanks to those of you that took time to read.
I really could use some help as I'm at a loss as to what to do.

I'm sorry. I read this earlier and had a few questions but I had to take my daughter to ballet. Then, I got caught up in the pre-game stuff. I really am sorry that I forgot to come back to it.

I am not a pro, but I have some questions for you.

Is he living with his dance partner or alone?

Have you read surving an affair?

Have you done the EN Questionaire? I know he is not living with you to do his, but you can fill out it out for him. After this many years together, I bet you have a good idea.

Have you considered counseling, either with the Harleys or someone else?

No, he's living with his mother across town.
"Dance partner" lives not far from me.
I've just found some of the articles on MB in last few weeks; printed some out, but haven't had time to read all yet..EN Questionaire is one of them.
I mentioned counseling almost immediately after D-day, but he refused...rather old fashioned in his thinking about it.
saying his parents/childhood don't need to be picked apart.
Besides, really can't afford it.

Well, it is good he is not living with her.

What have you done for you since he left? Are you working on making positive changes for you?

You might check with your insurance, some provide free counseling. Have you talked to your pastor?

As I said, I am not a pro at this, but I think you could plan A. Have you read the info on Plan A? There is a good post called the carrot and the stick of plan A. Please check it out.

Part of Plan A is also exposing. Have you exposed? Have you told your children why he left? Does his mother know?

There is another book talked about on here called Not Just Friends, you might want to check that out as well.

Keep reading and keep posting.

blessings

Hey TxGal,
How are you dong today?

Hi, Moveforward..

Really been busy & then had trouble finding this..sorry.

Question:
What have you done for you since he left? Are you working on making positive changes for you?

Answer:
Guess, really not much. Have been trying to lose weight - did fairly good for while, but with working more 50-60 hours weeks than 40 hour weeks, since June '05, honestly just haven't had energy or time. Have been getting my nails done.


Question:
You might check with your insurance, some provide free counseling. Have you talked to your pastor?

Answer:
Yes, did talk with pastor early on, but don't have church I attend regularly.
Will check insurance, which is thru his work ( I work contract, so have no benefits..great resume, but no one willing to hire at my age & pay salary, etc. when get younger, cheaper !)
Would love the find a local support group, but no idea where to begin to look, or if could even afford that

Question:
As I said, I am not a pro at this, but I think you could plan A. Have you read the info on Plan A? There is a good post called the carrot and the stick of plan A. Please check it out.

Part of Plan A is also exposing. Have you exposed? Have you told your children why he left? Does his mother know?

Answer:
I confronted him on D-Day (12/18/04), but he denied & has continued to deny. Really don't have any proof or exactly how I'd go about obtaining anything solid.
Our children know & although grown with kids of own...have been greatly affected.
As for his mother, she's not going to interfere, always takes up for her kids, never wanted them mad at her. So I'm sure she suspects/knows ( I sent her letter when he left as I didn't want her to think was my fault & have no idea what he's told her)

Question:
There is another book talked about on here called Not Just Friends, you might want to check that out as well.

Answer:
I've gotten several books ( always been a reader ) Not Just Friends was one of first. Also have
Love is Tough, Divorce Busters ( think that's title), Several of Dr Phil's Relationship Rescue.
These are just main ones that I can think of off top of my head!

Also..as if not enough stress in life..Our son, now 27, along w/His GF (& now /darling 1 yr old daughter live in house. ( Son has never left, GF for about 3-4yrs)
Will try to explain more about this situation later.
but for now just let me say have mixed feelings.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Gotta get back work.
( Also check/look for post by TxDumbo-also me. When got new computer at home, wouldn't let use TxGal2 for some reason)
Thanks for listening ! Really helps!

Bumping this up for help for her

TxGal,

I'm glad you found MB and are a book lover. Sorry that you are in this predicament, but my personal belief is that you are for a reason. A really good reason, if that helps.

Couple of things--have you read the lovebusters section? Might be one of those that you printed out. I picked up in your post that you might have had some problems with angry outbursts. I've been there, done that. No judging here. I know that eliminating LBs was my first step in Plan A.

I also picked up that you aren't assertive when it comes to making your own choices. You are leaving this in your H's hands, with loving detachment. And you didn't go to Colorado (which is where I am, but I was reared by Texans, so I would welcome you anyway) because he said you guys couldn't afford for you to miss the week's pay. What was your take on that? I'm not advocating aggression or independent behavior--just wondering how much you choose in your life. To your own code?

Same thing for working so many hours in a week. Not because that is a bad thing, but if you choose to do that and then say you can't do something because of it, then it is a problem. A legal separation would give you a better idea as to regular income and budgeting--something that you could choose to do for yourself because you're living by yourself (I know about son and family, but I have to take your choices one bit at a time).

What you do for yourself, including getting counseling even if he won't, well, that speaks a lot for your commitment to the marriage. Think of the marriage as a third-part...it is you, your H, and the marriage. You an honor yourself and your marriage without your H present. You are great at surrendering to God and having him lead you. He led you to information and education. What you do with that is up to you.

When you exposed, did you expose to the OW's family? Please don't say that since you didn't have proof, you didn't do it. Let's call it informing. "I believe my H is having an inappropriate friendship with your daughter/mother/wife and I believe it is destructive to my marriage." Stating what you believe, politely, is information. What they/she does with it is not in your control.

There's a great free support group out there--Al-Anon. You don't have to be married to an alcoholic--you just have been influenced by one in your family (great grandfather/mother?), your children...you name it. Anyway, most people think of it as the place a spouse goes to cope with an addicted H or W. I think of it where you go when you can't see where your control ends and others' begins. It helped me tremendously with being a control freak. And yes, conflict avoiders can be control freaks. It is a very sneaky condition. And it's not a character trait, IMHO.

I hope some of this helps. Keep posting and sharing what hits home most for you in the help books, what changes you want to make, what you think of Plan A and about what you're facing with your grown son and family in your home.

And to "moveforward"--I keep following you around. You ask great questions and I consider you helpful and compassionate. What more could a real pro be? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thanks! Given me quite alot to mull over & do some serious thinking about, as well as some reading...which I will do & post more detailed reply.

So glad at least couple people took time & made effort to not only read, but post & help as well...as I truly & seriously need it... was beginning to wonder <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Have a great day!

Think need to read the following books for more help:
"Love Busters", "His Needs, Her Needs" & workbook "Five Steps to Romantic Love" that goes w/ them.
Any others that would be helpful?
Thanks!

I've read His Needs, Her Needs (the quick way is typing HNHN), haven't done the workbook or the other two. I've read all of his stuff here, and have heard Love Busters is excellent.

I don't have more recommendations until you I know more...from all my questions to you. And I know you're busy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So, I'll wait for them and then see what else would help.

Surviving an Affair and Torn Asunder are great, too.

LA

Just to let you know I'm working on replies.
You are so right about being busy...have big project due 7am on Friday at work & am way behind..computer problems, then several of documents that have to be reformatted, are corrupted, so will have to completely retyped from scratch & just learned that part time helper brought in just for this project really doesn't know alot about formatting documents!! Even working on some in evenings all week to try get 'em done on time.
Also..ordered 5 books -- should get by 24th

• Surviving an Affair
  His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage
  Love Busters: Overcoming Habits That Destroy Romantic Love
  Five Steps to Romantic Love: A Workbook for Readers of Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs
  Torn Asunder: Recovering From Extramarital Affairs
  

Again..thanks for interest, support & help!

Good luck tomorrow morning. I'll be waiting, and sympathizing...work is a great/awful distraction, ain't it?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA –You gave me quite alot to mull over & do some serious thinking about, along w/reading. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Got up at 5A, re-read the LB section as well as several of forums/post here..bunches of good advise & information. Especially post by Bob Pure, Ark’s Plan A Tips & Musings and Carrot & Stick..copied them along with any links referenced to CD to print out at work & will find time to read them all in more detail soon!

I too am extremely grateful that finally found ( was lead to?) this site..hope not too late to save M. Know will get good help & advise along with support, ask questions, place to vent.etc. Really need since been separated almost year (1/19 H left)& don't really have anyone feel can discuss & vent to since few have problems of own. Truly sad that there is a need for such a site, but so very thankful it is available!

Several have told me that they feel I am here for reason, which I also believe.. however at this point unable to say it's for really good one.

Can’t wait to get books ordered & start reading. Always been very curious, & inquisitive (sp?) so books were way to learn & answer as well as just entertain, relieve stress or just escape.
Since D-day on 12/18/04 this one of the several things not been able to do or enjoy like did before. My reading instead of watching TV has always been one of many things my H complained about for years. Have also always put my thoughts, feelings, etc on paper kinda like diary or journal, just not on a daily or regular basis..my self help or whatever want to call it.

In the interest of keeping post from being so long, will comment/answer your reply/questions one at time over several postings, since some of them, I have to admit made /are making me do a lot of hard thinking, as well as making me feel alittle defensive for just split second for some reason.

Here goes the first one….(Warning - I am world’s worst speller !)

“Couple of things--have you read the lovebusters section? Might be one of those that you printed out. I picked up in your post that you might have had some problems with angry outbursts. I've been there, done that. No judging here. I know that eliminating LBs was my first step in Plan A.”

Having read LB section again, I do see that I have tendency toward angry outbursts…my defense mechanism it seems, when I’ve been hurt, frustrated not being able to get a point across & on verge of tears…it takes a lot to get me to point of AO, & is usually triggered by something totally unrelated to real issue / problem. When was younger did have a quick temper.

Thanks for your caring, support & advise. Really feel alone!

Great to see you survived the deadline and are back here on your weekend. I believe we are here for more reasons than marriage or infidelity. God brings us together here. Another way he saves, I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can write as much as you want. I post long ones, you know. I like how you are going to separate out the questions and answers, though. Will help to contain myself!

You felt a flicker of defensiveness, eh? Good to know. And the AOs are defense-related, also? Does conflict give you the feeling of being attacked, hence, defensive? If I say, "Hey, we're out of toilet paper!" do you hear, "You screwed up and didn't get toilet paper and now I hate you?"

Okay, I'm exaggerating, but I've been there. I've heard attacks when it was only information. I gave AOs and was defensive because I felt responsible for EVERYTHING. Feeling that way, I was always ready for it to be my fault, my shortcoming, my err. I felt justified in bursting out because of all that pressure.

It got worse if I swallowed those "attacks" until I finally burst. Some were real, some weren't. Finding what was a true attack and what wasn't took out a lot of the frustration, reaction, and anger.

Feel less alone now? You've been journaling, which is being a friend to yourself. The more you do it, the better the friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Consider this...when I eliminated my AOs, my H felt safe to state his thoughts and feelings. I felt less attacked knowing they were information not condemnation. One of the reasons H felt safer was because he felt attacked, misunderstood and GUILTY that what he said "made" me react. Viscious cycle. I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger.

I began stating back to my H what he said. This was so that I had time to discern whether there was an attack, me feeling too responsible, or if it really was just information. This also gave my H a chance to feel heard and to restate if I heard it wrong. If it was just information, I would answer, "Good to know." Because it was. I have no responsiblity in what my H thinks and feels. No burden or culpability. I just want to listen and to know.

90% of the time, it turns out, that's all I needed to do.

If I calmly listened, digested and still felt attacked, I figured out where. "I heard you say you think I'm insensitive. I would appreciate it if you would say, "I believe when you do ____ you are being insensitive. Means a lot to me to know that is your opinion. When you say it the other way, I feel attacked when you state it as a fact. I know I'm not insensitive, but I can act like it sometimes."

Stuff like that. Anyway, now I feel I'm going on too long. But getting the LBs out of my life led me to realize a lot about myself, what I was doing to add to the crazy making of bad communication and self-kicking. I look at eliminating LBs as great self-improvement.

"when I’ve been hurt, frustrated not being able to get a point across & on verge of tears…it takes a lot to get me to point of AO, & is usually triggered by something totally unrelated to real issue / problem. When was younger did have a quick temper."

Frustrated at not being heard? Yeah, I know that one. Another great side-benefit of restating during a conversation is that you really hear and eventually, are really heard. That eliminated my tears during the process. I cry from frustration--when I feel not heard, I feel useless, ignored and invisible. No power. No presence. In other words, YUCKY! So I would cry from those resulting feelings, not from what was being said.

LA

bump

Survived last week’s deadline & on way to making this week’s.
A year ago today came home to find not from H telling me he was leaving; just month after D-day.
Got email from son GF at work today..she’s thinking about leaving him ..will try to post more about this & rest of that part of story this weekend)

I felt/feel a lot of what you described in last post. Don’t know that I felt responsible as much as I was made to feel that way. Also the Yucky feelings.
Trying to remember & try your suggestions.

Books I ordered came today. Which do you suggest I start reading first ?

Ok…Here’s my next installment of replies/answers:

2.) I also picked up that you aren't assertive when it comes to making your own choices. You are leaving this in your H's hands, with loving detachment.

Guess in truth I’m guilty of all LB’s.
As for my not being assertive when comes to making my own choices……leaving this in my H hands, with loving detachment. Was done upon advise based on my understanding after reading “Love Must Be Tough” book.
It was maybe 2 months after D-day & few weeks after H actually left. I was a basket case, barely able to function. Was/am scared alone & trying to accept that man loved, trusted & believed for 40+ years more than anyone else – no longer in- love me. Being my realistic, practical self, knew that w/o his financial support would lose house & all worked so hard so long for since even though I make good money, not enough. One of my worst fears realized – to be alone, old, penniless & homeless! Trying to deal w/ H saying “loved me, but not in-love w/me, that he’d felt that way since before his heart attack in 4/2002, & had faked it since then..that was all about him, not me, denying on his father’s grave there was no one else, unable/unwilling to give me any reason(s)/explanation(s). Since I hadn’t cheated, what could I have done that was so bad??! I did & still am willing to do whatever necessary to save my M!!
In my emotional & mental state knew wasn’t smart to make any major decisions.


3.) And you didn't go to Colorado (which is where I am, but I was reared by Texans, so I would welcome you anyway) because he said you guys couldn't afford for you to miss the week's pay. What was your take on that? I'm not advocating aggression or independent behavior--just wondering how much you choose in your life. To your own code?

From pictures I’ve seen Colorado looks beautiful . Heard some call it “little Texas” so many from here go there. In fact my oldest GD will be moving there in few months so will have lots reasons to visit!
My take on not going to Colorado, at the time and with knowledge had then:
I had just gone back to work full time (40 hrs/wk)after working part time (20hrs/wk) for little over 2 months which along with had put us in bad money bind. Have severe arthritis & herniated disk in my neck since March 1, & had been in severe pain that was like hitting funny bone only 1000s of times worse, numbness in hands.& had to endure it until had tried all convention medicines/treatments before insurance would allow MRI & specialist. So on one hand made sense that the added $500 for me to go would put additional strain on budget, plus as H said the added stress with bills, at work & with kids would take it toll. Had been just year since his heart attack & he hadn’t missed day work since. then
On other hand I was extremely & deeply hurt, jealous, & resentful. I just taken last of my 401K money out to help with finances, but couldn’t afford to spend $500 for me to go???!! (Oh almost forgot did buy a new dishwasher!) Since his heart attack I didn’t want to do anything that upset him, I couldn’t live with the guilt if had & he had another & died!!!

(With knowledge have now I would have gone, regardless!
Hindsight is blessing & curse! Alot things I'd do different.
(Have to figure way to let you read some of H's email after that trip when I expressed my feelings/concerns!)

As for my own code..still thinking about that & will save for later reply.

4.) Same thing for working so many hours in a week. Not because that is a bad thing, but if you choose to do that and then say you can't do something because of it, then it is a problem

As for number of hours worked a week:
as a temp/contractor if don’t work don’t get paid, have no benefits.
Part of the job don’t really have choice being a Admin Asst/Project Sec’y in oil & gas / engineering co
Problem wasn’t just hours, but combined with neck problems as well.
Would like to be hired as permanent employee, but at my age not many companies will & most simply not doing that nowadays, most companies bring in temp/contractor when work load heavy/busy.

5.) A legal separation would give you a better idea as to regular income and budgeting--something that you could choose to do for yourself because you're living by yourself (I know about son and family, but I have to take your choices one bit at a time).

From my research, my understanding that Texas doesn’t have legal separation. So far H has kept his word/promise to continue w/ finances as always. Am working up a agreement/contract for his to sign before notary that will ask lawyer friend to look over first!


Hopefully can post rest this weekend.
Thanks again for your support,& help. Don’t feel as alone now!

Thank you for posting again! No rush or expectation here about how often. When you say your stuff, it's worth the wait. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"A year ago today came home to find not from H telling me he was leaving; just month after D-day." This is an extremely hurtful time in my experience, full of triggers to the pain. I experienced the anniversary of these things (like you, I remember dates of each hurt) as if they were happening again. That's what it felt like. I commiserate with you very much.

As I read your post, I felt that I didn't do a good job in asking you questions. I am reading your response as a defense, and though my intention was not to attack or put more on your shoulders, I need to ask, does it feel that way? Do you feel I'm pointing out places you did something hurtful to your marriage by your actions...not choosing to go to Colorado or not asking your H not to go? Each of the questions you quoted appeared that way to me. Please tell me if you felt defensive. Or, did you feel that I had forgotten, or hadn't read the information in your responses in other posts?

I can't do or say anything to ease your defensiveness, if that is what you are feeling. My part is only to clearly state that my intent is to the best of my ability show you through what I've learned how to see yourself and your life with clarity. I believe clarity is essential in making the decision you came here for. That's my truth.

I'm getting that some of the fears you live with are money-based: Being alone; penniless; homeless; not going to Colorado w/H because of bad financial bind; working while in dire physical pain; working excessive hours; taking care of your children and grandchildren; and seeing these as not your choice, but what you have to do?

Other fears: not being loved, accepted, trusted or believed; do you fear being thought of as lazy or incapable as well? May I ask you if you felt not only the financial pressure to work while having a herniated disk in your neck, but that people do not believe you are in pain when you are?

I also hear the fear of aging and death; the fear of loss. Did you feel that if you didn't work as hard as your H that you would feel less than equal, or a burden?

As to your question about which of your new books to read first, my answer, as you might expect now, whichever you choose. What ever title pulls you the most, that's the one to start with. I staggered across these titles, so I have no idea as to a good order. I'm really not good with order in general, I think. Shows in my posts.

And I have yet to read Dr. Dobson's, "Love Must Be Tough" but it is on my list, too; especially now that you've understood him to be saying that you leave your choices in your H's hand with loving detachment. I can see where you decided to do that when your life was upside down and backwards. Are you saying you still felt that way in two or four more months, or are you saying that you've felt that way until now? (I'll get it from the library this week, snow drift or no.)

A little clarifying for me:

You view yourself as a realistic, practical person. This is what you believe about yourself.

What else do you believe about yourself?

That your actions cause others to react?

Do you believe that you are responsible for your H's happiness or distress?

Do you believe that you stress your H and could cause him another heart attack?

Do you believe you're a hardworker because that is what a good person is, or because you have to do everything you can to get what you need when you need it?

Do you believe that in the end, you can only rely on yourself?

Other beliefs not about yourself:

That stress comes from the outside...money, kids, marriage?

Do you believe you had to do something awful in order for your H to betray you?

That if you try anything and everything, try hard enough, figure it all out, that you'll get what you want most?

Do you believe that love never rejects or abandons?

"even though I make good money, not enough" Who do you believe determines what is enough?

"I was a basket case, barely able to function." Did you miss work? Become depressed and immobile? What does barely able to function mean to you?

I am not challenging your beliefs, but endeavoring to know you. Beliefs are what give us our emotions and determine our decisions. Some are easy to spot and others take a bit of digging. These are the ones I saw in your post.

Back to your fears...did you grow up with these fears? Are they from what you experienced in your childhood?

I didn't know that about Texas and separation. I'm sorry I spoke without knowledge.

I'm pleased you don't feel so alone. I'm definitely committing to being here for you. And yes, that could be a negative thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

P.S. And to think I'm leaving out your son and GF and child. I recognize this as being impactful to your life--they are your family and live with you.

Afternoon….Hope day is off to great start.

Better have a comfortable chair, & settle in.. this will be a loooooonnnnnggg post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Will finish replies/answers to your 1/10 reply & then address comments/questions from your
1/20/06 reply…

6.) What you do for yourself, including getting counseling even if he won't, well, that speaks a lot for your commitment to the marriage. Think of the marriage as a third-part...it is you, your H, and the marriage. You an honor yourself and your marriage without your H present. You are great at surrendering to God and having him lead you. He led you to information and education. What you do with that is up to you.

• Main thing feel need to do for myself, is go back to Dr for test wanted / needed done since Dec’04..I put off originally due to insurance then after d-day I just haven’t been up to them.
  I would like to lose 30-40 lbs think would help me have more energy, etc. & start some sort of exercise, want to check out Curves, WeightWatchers or Overeaters Anonymous. Maybe get back on AD for while as some days feel really stressed & overwhelmed, just all too much, not able to deal w/ things, want runaway, or Scarlet- worry about them tomorrow, but know not answer.

7.) When you exposed, did you expose to the OW's family? Please don't say that since you didn't have proof, you didn't do it. Let's call it informing. "I believe my H is having an inappropriate friendship with your daughter/mother/wife and I believe it is destructive to my marriage." Stating what you believe, politely, is information. What they/she does with it is not in your control.

• Unfortunately at time had no idea of the possible benefits from exposing, especially since I didn’t & still really don’t have proof. Again, at time & with knowledge had from research / reading understood best not to, in case got back together; I did think about it, but honestly motive was out need for revenge & too hurt, as I felt. Also never liked everyone know my/our personal business & certainly not that H had left me…wasn’t ready to talk about it. Without proof, knew H’s talent for twisting words/things to support/substantiate his point/view so meant exact opposite/ different than what was said or intended & would enable him to come up with excuse,/justification/reply.
  ( does that make any sense??!!) My thought, too was it would seem more like jilted wife whining.etc …so we agreed not to discuss. Since was living w/ his mother, whom I am very close to, I did write her letter. Of course I had to tell kids, since son lives here as well daughter.
  Guess too wanted to behave like lady.

8.) There's a great free support group out there--Al-Anon. You don't have to be married to an alcoholic--you just have been influenced by one in your family (great grandfather/mother?), your children...you name it. Anyway, most people think of it as the place a spouse goes to cope with an addicted H or W. I think of it where you go when you can't see where your control ends and others' begins. It helped me tremendously with being a control freak. And yes, conflict avoiders can be control freaks. It is a very sneaky condition. And it's not a character trait, IMHO.

• Find it alittle spooky & also a sign..that you’d suggest Al-Anon. I was daughter of “weekend alcoholic”. Will check it out!

9.) A.-what changes you want to make,
B.-what you think of Plan A and
C. about what you're facing with your grown son and family in your home.

• A. – Working on this one..
  B. from what read, wish I’d known about it earlier; think might have worked better. Unsure now, since been separated year exactly how to implement it, or if would even be of any benefit.
  C. – have given serious thought to giving them choice…
  Stay, agreeing to pay a agreed upon amount of household expenses on time each & every month, along with discussing annoying behaviors, etc on both side & finding mutually agreeable solution for each.
  Or if not setting certain date for finding their own place.
  Howver recent development ..they are having relationship problems, think she is thinking seriously about leaving..along w/ her grandmother’s cancer returning & being asked to take care of her during her cemo treatments..requiring her to leave her job, but GM willing & able to pay her same salary. No idea how this will play out, so in holding pattern

Now my response/answer to your 1/20/06:


"A year ago today came home to find not from H telling me he was leaving; just month after D-day." This is an extremely hurtful time in my experience, full of triggers to the pain. I experienced the anniversary of these things (like you, I remember dates of each hurt) as if they were happening again. That's what it felt like. I commiserate with you very much.

• You are right about dates triggering pain feeling like was all happening again! That is exactly how I’ve felt.

“As I read your post, I felt that I didn't do a good job in asking you questions. I am reading your response as a defense, and though my intention was not to attack or put more on your shoulders, I need to ask, does it feel that way? Do you feel I'm pointing out places you did something hurtful to your marriage by your actions...not choosing to go to Colorado or not asking your H not to go? Each of the questions you quoted appeared that way to me. Please tell me if you felt defensive. Or, did you feel that I had forgotten, or hadn't read the information in your responses in other posts?

I can't do or say anything to ease your defensiveness, if that is what you are feeling. My part is only to clearly state that my intent is to the best of my ability show you through what I've learned how to see yourself and your life with clarity. I believe clarity is essential in making the decision you came here for. That's my truth.”

• Guess I did feel abit defensive as you did point out things I thought about, as I am realistic enough to know that some thing(s) I did/did not do contributed to our circumstances of our situation, so thought by providing my reasons/reasoning at time might better understand thus be in better place to help/advise me. Believe that I need to be aware of thing(s) I did / did not do , to accept, grow & move forward. Hope that makes sense

• Difficulty for me is trying to understand how I was suppose to know what issue(s)/problem(s) were, if they weren’t presented / expressed in such manner that they could clearly be understood as well as their importance….then when I did express my concerns/feelings only assurances that all was fine, &/or were dismissed..just get over it & get back to normal.
  Can/should I be expected to correct issue(s)/problem(s) if not even aware is one, much less what is ??

“I'm getting that some of the fears you live with are money-based: Being alone; penniless; homeless; not going to Colorado w/H because of bad financial bind; working while in dire physical pain; working excessive hours; taking care of your children and grandchildren;

• Hadn’t thought about it until now, but yes, guess come of my fears are money-based. Maybe lack of security? Thank God I have never been homeless, but have experienced not having money for necessities & what it’s like to be poor and hope never have to experience it again. I have never been truly alone & on my own.

and seeing these as not your choice, but what you have to do?“

• Did have choice in some , just didn’t like them…but more like expected to do.

“And I have yet to read Dr. Dobson's, "Love Must Be Tough" but it is on my list, too; especially now that you've understood him to be saying that you leave your choices in your H's hand with loving detachment. I can see where you decided to do that when your life was upside down and backwards. Are you saying you still felt that way in two or four more months, or are you saying that you've felt that way until now? (I'll get it from the library this week, snow drift or no.)”

• I’m saying that felt that way even now in some ways.. I took marriage vows very seriously…so part of me feels that this is the “better or worst”, “ in sickness & in health” parts;
  part is that I need to know that I have tried/done everything possible to save marriage as still love H
  part of me has had enough know for my own well being should move on.

A little clarifying for me:
You view yourself as a realistic, practical person. This is what you believe about yourself.
What else do you believe about yourself?

That I am honest-to fault, trust worthy, loyal, dependable, responsible


That your actions cause others to react?

• Yes.

Do you believe that you are responsible for your H's happiness or distress?

• To certain degree, yes

Do you believe that you stress your H and could cause him another heart attack?

• At times

Do you believe you're a hard worker because that is what a good person is, or because you have to do everything you can to get what you need when you need it?

• Hard worker because I enjoy working, & is what person has to do to survive.

Do you believe that in the end, you can only rely on yourself?

• Yes

Other beliefs not about yourself:

That stress comes from the outside...money, kids, marriage?

• No not totally. Some is from within.

Do you believe you had to do something awful in order for your H to betray you?

• Yes

That if you try anything and everything, try hard enough, figure it all out, that you'll get what you want most?

• Like to think that, but know really not true

Do you believe that love never rejects or abandons?

• Like to, know better

"even though I make good money, not enough" Who do you believe determines what is enough?

• Each of us…what I meant by ‘not enough’, what I earn isn’t enough to cover my being able to stay in home, or make it on my own to cover the basics, housing, food, transportation, utilities, phone, etc.

"I was a basket case, barely able to function." Did you miss work? Become depressed and immobile?

• Yes, was very depressed did miss couple of days work

What does barely able to function mean to you?

• To me that means feeling overwhelmed, Hunable to think about much else- thought about 24/7, couldn’t eat, trouble sleeping, didn’t want to be around people, cried a lot. Thought I was handling/dealing with ok, but when almost lost job, due to lots of mistakes in my work knew time to get help!

I am not challenging your beliefs, but endeavoring to know you. Beliefs are what give us our emotions and determine our decisions. Some are easy to spot and others take a bit of digging. These are the ones I saw in your post.

Back to your fears...did you grow up with these fears? Are they from what you experienced in your childhood?

• Yes some of them. Also some from my mother’s experiences after my day died

I'm pleased you don't feel so alone. I'm definitely committing to being here for you. And yes, that could be a negative thing.

• How/ Why would your definitely committing to being here for me be a negative thing?

I’ve done alittle reading in books I ordered. Started with “Surviving An Affair”, “His Needs, Her Needs” & “Love Busters” ….. although haven’t finished any of them….relate to a lot, especially in “Love Busters” (These should be required reading, with exam for all couples before can get married!!!)
Trying to figure out what His Needs were that I failed to meet, & which of my habits, behaviors, & other LB, added to them. Able to see that a lot of my actions were reactions/ non actions to his!
Wonder since been separated for year not sure if or how Plan A work at this point.


Hope haven’t put you to sleep with this long post! You made me do a lot of thinking, but feel better & definitely agree with you that need to be able to see myself & my life with clarity ! Hope able to make sense out of it.. have helped me already. Look forward to your next post!
Can’t thank you enough! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow, are you efficient or what? I feel so heard and respected in your reply. Thank you! (Now, when are you sending the comfy chair?)

How did you make your replies indented? It was a breeze for me to read. I soooo want to emulate you. Let me in on it.

That efficiency really shows in your mind, too. I saw a lot of emotionality in your previous posts. This one "how I was suppose to know what issue(s)/problem(s) were, if they weren’t presented / expressed in such manner that they could clearly be understood as well as their importance…"

Wow. Where did the "suppose" come from? You married another conflict avoider who didn't tell you his thoughts or feelings, share is internal conflict and issues with you. That's what it sounds like. You had no information to act on. I wasn't asking you what you were supposed to have done--what you did is what you did; what he didn't do, he didn't. No changing that. I'm with you. What I'm mostly asking of you is not what you could've done, but your perspective at the time and has it changed? Do you allow yourself more freedom to just be? Not as a caretaking action person, but a whole and lovable human being seperate from what you do?

This is good to know, too:

"Guess I did feel abit defensive..."

Do you often have that feeling, from others, that they are questioning/attacking your reality? That you're at fault somehow for their emotions and actions?

I hear you putting off the doctor; I did that for five years with what looked exactly like breast cancer. It wasn't. Can't tell you what a jolt of self-respect I got back when I made myself get to the cancer clinic and find out it wasn't. I want that for you--my experience. I have no idea of your condition, just thought I'd throw in my experience to say I'm not bashing you. Good self-caretaking takes time. Don't waste anymore, though, 'k?

I did the joining the gym, having the membership for six months before actually going thing. Know what I found out? It was like salvation. I hated gyms before that (just on theory alone), and making myself walk ten minutes on a treadmill when I started was my maximum sacrfice. But I picked a gym close to my house, that had hot tubs and wet and dry saunas. Oh, my! For my ten minutes on treadmill, I rewarded myself with an hour in the tubs and saunas. Then I got up to 20 minutes, and so on. Within seven months, I was working out with alternating days of weights and cardio for an hour, then rewarding myself for that last hour with stretch outs. I found that I had stopped focusing on losing weight and began yearning for the time because I found out what profound emotional relief there is in physical exercise. Numbed my mind so pleasantly, opened my heart, and in the bargain I lost 70 lbs and gained 25 pounds of muscle. It was heaven.

I've fallen off in the last three months and am putting it back on. Wanna be my online partner in that? LOL Okay, just asking.

"Can/should I be expected to correct issue(s)/problem(s) if not even aware is one, much less what is ??"

Your responsibility is to know your own issues, share and research them. Not his. You do it for you, for the person you've wanted to be, instead of within a reactive thought-pattern and emotional pattern with him. It's like a surgery you do yourself. VERY carefully. Seems to me like you were trying to be the wife/mother/provider/companion the best way you thought you should be. Txgal, roles can tend to stepover selves. You're only responsible for you. No bashing or should haves here. Al-Anon showed me that. A little nudge from God that it saved me?

With your son, his GF and GC...sounds like a perfect plan. Also seems to me that you are attempting to control the situation based on reactions and choices outside of your control. When you give them a choice, with all the care and consideration you put into it, you always hand them the respect of that choice. It's theirs. They are responsible for their lives and choices. You might feel you're compounding something sensitive by your timing; the what-ifs and changes at this stressful time. Let me ask you, were there other stresses stopping you before, in their lives?

Now that you recognize the money-based (security...you nailed it) fears, you can work with yourself and look at your reality. You've been poor. Deprived. Sacrificed. You survived. Part of security fears, I find, is that they are always based on what-ifs and what I can't stand...but really, I withstood and am not enduring it again. Being open to yourself, knowing you can get along on many levels of income and not die (I know that sounds ridiculous, but fears are), frees you in your choices because they become rooted in reality, not fear. Something I battled and was feeling in you.

Doctor and individual counseling as self-care. Hmmm. Feeling nagged yet? The control freak in me showing? ((((TxGal2))))) I'm concerned that you've evolved this incredible threshold for physical and emotional pain. Hence, my concern. You are worthy, valuable and not defective in anyway. Yeah, I'm repeating myself.

I am not attacking, but I want to show your concerns back to yourself in your words:

"supposed to" "expected to" "what should have" "trust worthy, loyal, dependable, responsible" Where did your idea of a good person come from? Who helped you make up all the ingredients? Use your honest-to-a-fault quality here.

"did miss couple of days work" Ohmygosh. TxGal? You were in incredible physical pain and you missed...a couple days of work? Holy terror, Batman! (I have no idea where that came from in me...must be the stomach flu from today.)

Let me know if you feel you have any extremist behaviors? No bashing, just urgently want you to realize that your ideal person may not be ideal. It wasn't until you almost lost your job that you decided to get help. You didn't believe your miserableness was worth it alone. Jobs can be our symbols of what is expected, supposed to be, and how we are thought of. Lot more than income. Losing that was what got to you. You, yourself, were not valued enough. Just want to be clear on this. I know you're smart and reasonable and will wonder about this, won't you?

"How/ Why would your definitely committing to being here for me be a negative thing?" Wow, you don't see me as a huge pain in the butt yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So, I still have some self-issues I'm working on. Heehee.

I'm with on a required course of Harley's Lovebusters in all schools! Definitely! And a retake exam, with HNHN for marrying couples. I did give that book as a wedding present to my oldest son.

Thank you for being so honest in your response to your beliefs. Did you look up any Al-Anon meetings yet? You can do it online!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, when you post this week, you'll have two appts set up, right? One for doc and heart doc? Heart would be the shrink, in my estimation. My heart breaks for some of them...you causing your H's affair, that you cause others to react, etc. But my heart is still intact and I know that as you examine your beautiful self, you'll see they were formed long before your H. How old were you when your dad died?

Thank YOU for sharing. Means a lot to me.

LA

Morning..LA

At work reading reply..but have question/ need clarification on :

• "What I'm mostly asking of you is not what you could've done, but your perspective at the time and has it changed?"

My perspective on exactly what at the time?
guess little dense this am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Later .. Have a great day!

Afternoon, TxGal!

I'm not at work, but at home recovering from last night. You're not dense. You're honest and smart enough to get understand before you attempt to make yourself understood. That's a tenet in life that is worth keeping to, I believe.

Your perspective...how you look at yourself, and thereby, life. All your interactions. If your perspective is, "If I do this, I might get this reaction, or this one." Your perspective is, like you said above, that you cause stuff to happen--people's reactions. Has that changed in anyway? Along with assessing what your relationship was with your H, you get to find out what you were thinking at the time. Usually, we carry one perspective our whole lives, rarely changing it. When you hear or see something that alerts you to how you view it, an "Ah ha!" moment happens. Those are the times we change our perspective. First, recognizing it, then shifting it a little.

Difficult for me to explain because of the way I worded the question. See, I hear you very reactive to feeling blamed. That's a perspective. You can feel blame where it isn't and validly, have been blamed for a lot of stuff that wasn't your fault. Finding what was your reality and what was your perspective that made it your reality, well, that isn't for the faint of heart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For instance, had you had the perspective that your H was responsible for his heart attack, his choices afterwards, his own stress management--then you wouldn't have feared causing him to have another. That perspective doesn't say you don't have influence, but that's all it is, influence. Your encouragement and care of him, coming from love and respect, with a solid acknowledgement that he has his own reactions just as you have your own, might be an issue you are still struggling with. Change the perspective and see it from another angle. How does that feel?

I hope you're having a physically comfortable and pleasant day, as well. I'm still euphoric to be out of pain; just the remnant feeling of having been run over by a very large truck. Are you scheduling your dr's appt, even as I type?

<---a nag at heart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hi, LA

Clarification... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Gee..just wanted a "simple" reply..I'm learning you like to think...a true "nag at heart"!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
'K, I'll work on it.

Gotta get back to the grindstone...

I have my own clarity problem. I'm working on it. I do explain too much, mostly because each time, I'm checking it from beginning to end for myself, holding it true for me.

Has nothing to do with you!

LOL

Want to help me with that?

Grind away...

LA

Howdy, LA


Hope you are over your stomach flu..yuk,yuk! & feeling terrific !!

Ok..ready, set..here's my replies ( most of them, still working on the "perspective" thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> )


1.) Wow, are you efficient or what? I feel so heard and respected in your reply. Thank you! (Now, when are you sending the comfy chair?)

• I can be efficient & organized ..also detailed oriented, which is not always a good thing.;o(
  Comfy chair will be on it's way..as soon as my ship comes in or win lottery !

2.) How did you make your replies indented? It was a breeze for me to read. I soooo want to emulate you. Let me in on it.

• Will have to figure out how I did it & let you know...sleep couple time since then !
  Ahh..light bulb went off...
  in edit put curser at beginning of what you want to indent,
  then click on list start
  now put curser at end of what you want to indent,
  then click on list end

3.) " What I'm mostly asking of you is not what you could've done....but your perspective at the time and has it changed?"

• Dictionary defines perspective = view / position: a way of regarding situations or topics etc
  Still thinking / working on it ---not sure about this one..

4.) Do you allow yourself more freedom to just be? Not as a caretaking action person, but a whole and lovable human being separate from what you do?

• Yeah, way too much for most of time in the last year..just sitting on my b??.
  ..quite honestly have let alot of things go, not had alot of motivation, or energy to do some things want &/or always enjoyed doing - sewing, crafts, reading... just happy to sit, write or watch TV.

5.) "Guess I did feel abit defensive..."
Do you often have that feeling, from others, that they are questioning/attacking your reality? That you're at fault somehow for their emotions and actions?

• Really depends on subject, how others phrase/ ask, their tone, as well as my frame of mind etc.
  Yes to a certain degree as believe that our words, actions, etc. are like ripple effect of throwing stone into pond.where ripples spread in ever widening circle until reach all edges of the pond..

6.) "I hear you putting off the doctor; I did that for five years with what looked exactly like breast cancer. ........... Good self-caretaking takes time. Don't waste anymore, though, 'k?"

• Need to get thru next month financially, before start scheduling the tests needed. ( think 3-4 @ $250 out of pocket) Will need to see my GP, especially if continue having days like did last week where felt totally overwhelmed, extremely nervous, etc. & get back on AD. & also for my neck - herniated disk- as it's been bothering me alttle, so need that Rx as well. Keep after me!!

7.) "I did the joining the gym, having the membership for six months before actually going thing. Know what I found out? It was like salvation. I hated gyms before that (just on theory alone)........... I've fallen off in the last three months and am putting it back on. Wanna be my online partner in that? "

• Did find there is a Curves near house & one close to work..just need to pay them visit & see if think with my neck & foot problem would be able to do their program. Know I need to get moving, cut down on food intake ( also aware that I use it for comfort) Just don't have the will power like I use to. By time get home & cook between 7-8p before eat, so been just eating whatever son's GF cooks..tacos, enchiladas, tostadas, spanish rice, etc.
  When days get longer, will try walking again.

8.) ' "Can/should I be expected to correct issue(s)/problem(s) if not even aware is one, much less what is ??"
Your responsibility is to know your own issues, share and research them. Not his. You do it for you, for the person you've wanted to be, instead of within a reactive thought-pattern and emotional pattern with him. It's like a surgery you do yourself. VERY carefully. Seems to me like you were trying to be the wife/mother/provider/companion the best way you thought you should be. Txgal, roles can tend to stepover selves. You're only responsible for you. No bashing or should haves here. Al-Anon showed me that. A little nudge from God that it saved me?'

• I understand that I need to figure out, learn, research my issues & share them.
  What I was asking with this question was more about how to know what were/are his LBs, ENs, etc .

9) "With your son, his GF and GC...sounds like a perfect plan. Also seems to me that you are attempting to control the situation based on reactions and choices outside of your control .......... Let me ask you, were there other stresses stopping you before, in their lives?"

• Yes, seem always some stress/drama going on in their lives -

• Didn't feel I was trying to control situation.. just give them choices & make them aware that if decide to stay, there would be house rules that would need to abide by, as well as household duties needing to be done weekly basis , instead of repeatedly being put off or left for me to do,( really bad last 6 months) which to me indicates lack of respect .

10.) " Now that you recognize the money-based (security...you nailed it) fears, you can work with yourself and look at your reality "

• Yes, I have been poor, deprived & sacrificed as well as working hard, so that I would never have to experience that again. Not sure at this stage/time in my life I am strong enough or have resources to get thru it ...

11.) A -' " I am not attacking, but I want to show your concerns back to yourself in your words:"supposed to" "expected to" "what should have" "trust worthy, loyal, dependable, responsible" '
Where did your idea of a good person come from?
Who helped you make up all the ingredients?

• The "Golden Rule", my grandmother & mother influenced, along with my own experiences, all contributed to my idea/opinion of what good person should strive to be

B. (1)' "did miss couple of days work" 'Ohmygosh. TxGal? You were in incredible physical pain and you missed...a couple days of work? "
(2) Let me know if you feel you have any extremist behaviors? No bashing, just urgently want you to realize that your ideal person may not be ideal.
(3) It wasn't until you almost lost your job that you decided to get help. You didn't believe your miserableness was worth it alone. Jobs can be our symbols of what is expected, supposed to be, and how we are thought of. Lot more than income. Losing that was what got to you. You, yourself, were not valued enough. Just want to be clear on this. I know you're smart and reasonable and will wonder about this, won't you?

• Honestly..trust me when I say that when I went to work, the pain was bearable...I am a major wimp when it comes to pain-do not handle it well.
  As for other extremist behaviors...guess that would depend on whose point of view...but I don't think so...
  Almost losing my job made me get help only because made me realize the mistakes in my work, when I really & truly thought/believed I was handling it & since obvious that I indeed was not that did need to get help to do so. I do & have always taken pride in my work, job I do, but don't / never have thought/believe job I did/had defined who I was or my value.

12.) " Wow, you don't see me as a huge pain in the butt yet?"

• No yet.. will admit some of questions force me to look at myself..as they say,
  "truth hurts"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (Only been in past few years I've taken to wanting to burying my head in sand at times, so this will be a good thing in the long run! )

13.)" Did you look up any Al-Anon meetings yet ?"

• Yes., but need to look again & print out locations, time, etc.

14.) " How old were you when your dad died? "

• Almost 27 yrs old...he died in May & I turned 27 in Sept.

It is forecast to be rainy here this weekend, so hope to have some quiet time to read & nap..

Eagerly awaiting your comments, questions.
Have question .. by having me focus on myself.is that your way of telling me

• that in my case too late for Plan A ?

• don't see much hope after us being separated for year?

Gota run to a 2hour class & hope don't fall asleep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have a great Friday!

TxGal,

You wrote these questions:

"Is it too late to try Plan A"

"How do I carry out Plan A, if have no idea what our "few little problems" were, since still refuses to discuss them?"

"If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I begin to change ?"

• I side-stepped them because they perplexed me. You read Harley's material on this website, got excited and wanted to save your marriage, after having been separated a year. Then you ask if you should do Plan A...and will it help if you don't know what to fix, and if you don't know what you did wrong...
  
  What do you think of Plan A? Do you feel up to being the BS and in essence, wooing your H back to the marriage? I'm summarizing because I'm tired. Sorry. It's not wooing, per se, but being your best self; stopping your LBs, meeting his ENs, etc.
  
  I heard a lot of pain in your answers to my questions. I also hear a dedication for your 38-year-marriage.
  
  I took the approach to understand better what you were asking--your thoughts and feelings. You feel responsible for his A. I can't make you believe differently. You both were responsible for the state of your marriage before the A. He chose the A. You weren't responsible for it. He could have chosen marriage counseling, getting all those books you now have, talking to you, etc. He chose. You didn't.
  
  You are a Christian, so let me ask this of you. If you were to ask God these same questions, paraphrased to be, "If I do this Plan A, will it even work after being separated for a year?" What would he say? "All things are possible through Christ Jesus."
  
  When he left the note and moved out, you said you made the condition that any contact had to be initiated by him. Is that still in place? That would essentially be that you went into Plan B, somewhat. To switch to Plan A, you need to initiate contact. Do you know if the A is still active or if there is someone new in his life? I can't grasp this arrangement well enough to advise you. I just thought I'd start with the last question which stunned me...

"If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I begin to change ?"

• TxGal, this is what you said to him when he gave you the "I love you but not in love with you anymore" fog speech. Why is it you did wrong? How do you make another person say that to you? You can't. They do it. It's about them.
  
  I asked you questions to look at who you are, how you see yourself, why you make the choices you do, and why you believe you cause/cure/control so much in your world.
  
  You said you left the decision in your H's hands. Sounds like you were willing to accept him returning to the marriage and recovery or to let him go. Were you willing to accept him not deciding?
  
  You write. You write well. Try to compose a letter of acknowledgement...this is where we are at, this is what I've learned about myself, and this is where I would love to be...in a great marriage with you.
  
  Before the A, did you regularly share your thoughts and feelings with your H? Feel safe to have different opinons, feel respected, understood and accepted? And were you all these things for your H?
  
  That's where I was going with all the questions...if you believe you cause other people's choices, then conversely, you believe they cause your choices. Our human pathways can't go one way out and a different way back.
  
  So no, I wasn't asking you all those questions because I thought Plan A was too late. I woudn't know. From my perspective, I think learning about your own behavior and decisions to grow is a solid endeavor. Understanding your own ENs and your H's would be great information. Understanding how relationships work, about the four Rules, the lovebank, LBs in myself and others, enhanced my life.
  
  My marriage is saved and I believe we have a bright future. I see the way into and through this process as self-discovery, comprehending respect and living from a personal code. It's all I could do. I have to focus on myself because that's the only person I'm responsible for and have control over.

"Able to see that a lot of my actions were reactions/ non actions to his! Wonder since been separated for year not sure if or how Plan A work at this point."

• Do you two interact? Sounds like you do. If you change how you react/non-react in the usual pattern, you alter the course of your relationship. Stopping the LBs is a big one.

"about how to know what were/are his LBs, ENs, etc."

• You know his ENs, I believe. Do you not think you can meet them in some way?

"Honestly..trust me when I say"

• I do trust you. I felt it through my woosy pain level. I projected there. Sorry about that.

Hope you had success in staying awake during class. And yes, the whole family is now over the stomach flu and it was Yuk! Yuk! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA

My 2 hour class turned out to be really interesting & informative..learned a few new tricks for using the software.

Glad to hear that all family is over the stomach bug.
For last 2 weeks or so, my bunch has had really bad cold/flu/upper respiratory/lost voice thing..started w/GD who also had ear infection in both ears added to hers, then her mom & now my son. I’m keeping my fingers crossed & praying that passes me by!

With our weather forecast today to be 80% chance of rain, w/possible severe T-storms & up to 2” in rain possible..sounds like good excuse to spend day replying to your last post, & if time after that maybe reading, watching TV, taking nap(s), & just vegging out..enjoying peace ,quiet & being alone which is rare!. (all have gone to wedding shower of best friend of son’s GF.)

Once again you have caused me to do some deep digging, soul searching & thinking..
Also I now understand where you were headed with questions. as well as why & have to admit agree, that it makes sense….

Few comments / clarification ( honest – didn’t feel defensive this time!)

I am truly happy that your marriage is saved & able to see a bright future ahead.
That is what I am hoping & praying for with all my heart & soul !!

First -- since d-day have been willing to do my very best to do any & everything, whatever necessary rebuild/save marriage –that has been/is my goal. As regardless of outcome, I must know that I tried to do all could possibly could, with unconditional love for H.

Since d-day, I was a complete mental & emotional wreck- trying to understand, make sense, searching to find answers & help, in world shattered & I am like ship on sea w/o a rutter in uncharted waters { Needed AD meds to be able to function, something never experienced before - - maybe on verse of nervous breakdown.}

From information I read & found....

- Followed what I understood from advice presented

- know that while it was by his choices/decisions that we are in this situation, also smart enough to know that I contributed to it by my actions/re-actions/lack action. which allowed him to justify his choices/decisions/actions & appease his guilt in making his choices/decisions.

-that I had/have no control over anyone, but me

In finding & reading books & material here, & from you understand & know that need to work on me .. was simply looking for a small ray of hope trying to sort all out.





Now to your post…
<><><>><>>>>>>><>><>>
TxGal,
You wrote these questions:
"Is it too late to try Plan A"
"How do I carry out Plan A, if have no idea what our "few little problems" were, since still refuses to discuss them?"
"If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I begin to change ?"
I side-stepped them because they perplexed me. You read Harley's material on this website, got excited and wanted to save your marriage, after having been separated a year. Then you ask if you should do Plan A...and will it help if you don't know what to fix, and if you don't know what you did wrong...

What do you think of Plan A? Do you feel up to being the BS and in essence, wooing your H back to the marriage? I'm summarizing because I'm tired. Sorry. It's not wooing, per se, but being your best self; stopping your LBs, meeting his ENs, etc.

• Wish learned about it sooner, but in some small ways have followed it by trying to be patience, upbeat, cheerful, no anger, judgement, etc during conversations & meetings.

I heard a lot of pain in your answers to my questions. I also hear a dedication for your 38-year-marriage.

• There is a lot of pain..but extremely difficult as after almost 44 yrrs, there is hardly anything that doesn’t cause me to think of him, almost 24/7

I took the approach to understand better what you were asking--your thoughts and feelings. You feel responsible for his A. I can't make you believe differently. You both were responsible for the state of your marriage before the A. He chose the A. You weren't responsible for it. He could have chosen marriage counseling, getting all those books you now have, talking to you, etc. He chose. You didn't.

• Maybe if try to put my thoughts & feelings at time down & where I think I am now would help??

• My head knows better, but heart has trouble

You are a Christian, so let me ask this of you. If you were to ask God these same questions, paraphrased to be, "If I do this Plan A, will it even work after being separated for a year?" What would he say? "All things are possible through Christ Jesus."

• Yes, think He’d say that along with perhaps – “all things happen for reason”. Seem to remember from Bible study years ago, there were several but only one recall at moment is purification...

When he left the note and moved out, you said you made the condition that any contact had to be initiated by him. Is that still in place? That would essentially be that you went into Plan B, somewhat. To switch to Plan A, you need to initiate contact.
Do you know if the A is still active or if there is someone new in his life? I can't grasp this arrangement well enough to advise you. I just thought I'd start with the last question which stunned me...

"If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I begin to change ?"

• Was getting mixed messages from H words & actions at time - , felt used, that needed few boundaries to protect myself

• They still attend dances together, but no idea or way of knowing / proving anything beyond that.

TxGal, this is what you said to him when he gave you the "I love you but not in love with you anymore" fog speech. Why is it you did wrong? How do you make another person say that to you? You can't. They do it. It's about them.
I asked you questions to look at who you are, how you see yourself, why you make the choices you do, and why you believe you cause/cure/control so much in your world.

• Need to keep asking myself these questions,

• look at who I am,
  how you see myrself,
  why I make the choices I do,
  why I believe I cause/cure/control so much in my world – if I in truly do & never knew it!
  until / so can truly see & understand

You said you left the decision in your H's hands. Sounds like you were willing to accept him returning to the marriage and recovery or to let him go. Were you willing to accept him not deciding?

• Honestly never occurred to me about him just not deciding, but does seem to be what he has done.

You write. You write well. Try to compose a letter of acknowledgement...this is where we are at, this is what I've learned about myself, and this is where I would love to be...in a great marriage with you.

• Again uncanny you saying this as I have been working on just that kind of letter off & on since last fall. Along with trying to get information from H on financial status.
  Will definitely continue. . Thanks for the comment about my writing well.

Before the A, did you regularly share your thoughts and feelings with your H? Feel safe to have different opinons, feel respected, understood and accepted? And were you all these things for your H?

• Have to think about this some more.
  At time thought I did these for H, but realize from LBs wasn’t really.

That's where I was going with all the questions...if you believe you cause other people's choices, then conversely, you believe they cause your choices. Our human pathways can't go one way out and a different way back.

So no, I wasn't asking you all those questions because I thought Plan A was too late. I woudn't know. From my perspective, I think learning about your own behavior and decisions to grow is a solid endeavor. Understanding your own ENs and your H's would be great information. Understanding how relationships work, about the four Rules, the lovebank, LBs in myself and others, enhanced my life.

• I have to agree with all of the above. Will work more on understanding my ENs & LBs
  And try to determine exactly what his ENs are!

My marriage is saved and I believe we have a bright future. I see the way into and through this process as self-discovery, comprehending respect and living from a personal code. It's all I could do. I have to focus on myself because that's the only person I'm responsible for and have control over.

"Able to see that a lot of my actions were reactions/ non actions to his! Wonder since been separated for year not sure if or how Plan A work at this point."

Do you two interact? Sounds like you do. If you change how you react/non-react in the usual pattern, you alter the course of your relationship. Stopping the LBs is a big one.

• Yes, guess could call it interacting. H emails / calls fairly often. I email him jokes, etc but only call if question about bills, problem around house, or something to do with kids.

"about how to know what were/are his LBs, ENs, etc."
You know his ENs, I believe. Do you not think you can meet them in some way?

• Feel I able better able to identify my LB towards him. & towards each other
  Believe need to do a lot more work on me before can try to identify his ENs

"Honestly..trust me when I say"
I do trust you. I felt it through my woosy pain level. I projected there. Sorry about that.

Hope you had success in staying awake during class. And yes, the whole family is now over the stomach flu and it was Yuk! Yuk!

LA

><><><><><>>><


Hope you will bear with me & haven’t changed your mind about
being “definitely committing to being here for me”

Thanks as always for your help & support, know will get there just may take me while longer!

Happy Saturday, Con!

Good to know about class beating your expectations, and that you get some quality me-time. :::spraying Lysol down your throat::: to avoid the yucky sickness stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"didn’t feel defensive this time" This says more about you than about me. You're choosing to see me as helpful and not attacking. You did that. Excellent choice (I think!). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Very good to hear that.

What do you think about initiating more contact with your H? Asking him on dates, over for dinner, non-children-related? How does that feel to you?

Realizing that your H decided not to decide, what are your plans? Do you know you have the choice? You can decide to save your marriage. Open dialogue, attempt to fill his ENs, ask him to move back home for a year's trial run again. Explain your boundaries, your knowledge, and your hope of a really great marriage. You can decide what actions you want to take, what words you want to use and do it. You have to let go of the results...not base what you say and do on what his response might be, but what will be the authentic you.

You can choose to send him a daily email composed about your thoughts and feelings. How would that feel?

And I do understand very much how difficult it is for you to take your focus off of him since that's where it was for so many years! I believe you can do it and that it won't be easy. Not at all. Even if you've done it 44 years, though, I guarantee that once you really practice this control of focus, that within just one year, you can get there completely. Doesn't take another 44 years, isn't that cool?

I'm reconfirming your hope that I'm there for you. I have no expectations of what you should or will do. You won't disappoint me or cause me pain. You can lash out if you feel hurt by my words, be angry, happy, sad...however you feel, you can say. My response will still be appreciation for the effort you took to tell me.

LA

Not sure where to start….Been a really stressful, tension filled, nerve wrecking since posted last.


Son stopped for not using turn signal & went to jail on warrant for unpaid speeding ticket, so missed work on Monday 1/20 due to getting him out & lack of sleep worrying…the Mom thing.,
(Even being out a day, still got over 40 hours this week! Love paycheck, but long hours are beginning to bother & depress me.. Shouldn’t complain, as know I’m blessed to at least I have a good job that’s close to home., which I enjoy most of time)

WH went downtown to pay fine ..talked w/ me on cell phone off & on all time, almost 2 hours.

Then there is L, son’s GF who is openly talking/text messaging (TM) her new OM, but saying/writing notes that she loves him, wants to stay w/ him, but out most nights has left with various excuses .. visiting her Mom, Aunt, brother, etc. & few staying all night coming in at 8-9a several time week. Don’t think he’s going to put up that much longer, but for now tension in house can be cut with knife. We’ve discussed that if they work thing out & stay a lot of things concerning house cleaning/clutter, chores, etc will have to change. He agreed.


Guess one good thing to come out of all this, son has been talking/TM his “Pop & WH has been calling to talk/discuss kids, other things. w/ me, vent, etc. about his work issues, ask for my help w/ setting up spreadsheet for him, etc. ????

• Admitted during talks last few days about kids that he is “conflict avoider”…not sure but curious as to where he learned this term.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

• Also said he know it’s like I was hit between eyes with a 2x4 !!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Back in November, when invitation for Holiday celebration were emailed, I sent to WH, asking if thought I should go, just to make conversation. About 1 or so, later he calls me & asks if I have a date for that night, & when I said no, he ask if he could take me. Went & had good time ,.
So, on Thurs. 1/26, when got invite for company sponsored lst oil celebration for project I was on when worked here in ’04, for night of dinner, dancing & gambling. Emailed it to him & ask if he’d be interested/consider offering his services as escort. Didn’t get reply until following Tues, when I emailed him that had to know to RSVP..said he had other plans.
Then this past weekend he called me to say that his business trip to the valley had been cancelled & he’d love to go & was looking forward to it. Will report how it goes.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since last time posted I’ve been doing a lot of thinking, reading – some of your & other posts here, books, more thinking. Even read back thru email talks we’ve had over past 2 years ( not sure why I saved them, but something at time told me too!)
as well as some of our recent phone conversations.
Notice there were several times he mentioned my being on diet, that he was "proud of me, to stick with it – would change my life, I (he) promise(d)". ..so figure that was one of his ENs I wasn’t meeting
He’s also said he "looking for the little girl he married"..not size – weighed about 100 lbs when got married..for about 10 years now I’ve been fighting a losing battle with my 40-50 lbs need & want to lose.
His other EN I failed to meet, was keeping house neat…really gotten back past few years, have way too much stuff & not enough room for it, made even worse since son’s GF been here.

Believe my best course of action would be

• Write him letter - get all the negative stuff have stored up out

• Then send letter to his brothers, sisters & all the club members, etc to expose ( would need help in wording it since really don’t have definite proof )

& while his temper cools & hopefully the dusts settles…

• Work myself, why I do / react as I do
  go on / stick to diet to lost 30-40 lbs –figure way to curb appetite ,

• Get new hairdo /color –cover gray hair,
  & work what I think are his ENs I failed to met,

• By taking one room a month & de-junking/de-cluttering, cleaning, it

as well as do my best not to LBs.
showing by my actions I am serious about them.

• Contact him by phone/email just to talk & not just to deliver negative news all the time.

It’s late gotta run & get things ready for work tomorrow.
Suggestions for some safe conversation topics for Saturday??
As always looking forward to comments, questions,suggestions,advice whatever.
about my plan.
Have a great day.

Hopefully wouldn’t be as long ‘til my next post & things around house will improve soon!

Missed you, Gal!

Nice to see your post. Great news on Saturday. What did you talk about at the holiday date? Same stuff might work. You can find things you really admire about him--his appearance that night, his increasing communication, how you appreciate him, enjoy his company as the night progresses (which sounds exactly like my H's holiday party..dinner, drinks, awards and Texas Hold'em). I would steer away from any talk of son/GF, etc. unless he brings it up, and then I would just listen and repeat.

I think you're doing awesome...but one thing...about that letter..."Write him letter - get all the negative stuff have stored up out" I would definitely write the letter, but maybe not send it?

Up to you. Your life.

As for dieting...my way was to make time for exercise. I couldn't fix my behavior with more control and deprivation. I could wear myself out at the gym, come home too tired to eat and fall into bed. Since I wasn't eating after 5pm every weekday, I lost over 100 lbs, slowly, with no hanging skin, and put on about 30 lbs of muscle...which then helps keep the calories burning.

Great stress reliever, too. Best I've found. Promotes deeper sleep, kicks in the growth hormone which repairs damaged cells (face lines, eyes, etc.) and got down to a size 8 from a 22. I'll be your workout buddy online if you want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've got to get back into it. My happy marriage needs to include that level of self-care in it, and I've been too happy (but then, why am I eating so much?).

Happy for his self admissions on CA and your pain. That's tremendous. Something you've really wanted for a long time, huh?

Big hug, dear.

LA

Nice to be missed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

More news, but first will response to your questions, comments, etc.

At Holiday party really not chance to talk, too busy eating, dancing, etc. On way home did most of talking about my job, people, & experience thru the years – he even made the comment that he thought was amusing as he didn’t remember me ever talking like that?? !! Still not sure if was meant as compliment, but I chose to take it as one. Will try your suggestions..

As for the letter, would post before/if decided to sent it.

I'm doing alot better since found this site & your advice, suggestions, questions etc & most of all your support !! The books have helped explain, too as have reading yours replies on other threads & other posts!

On line workout buddy sounds like good idea - how does/would it work? Sounds like you did strength training with weights if you add 30lbs muscle & are size 8 -- I'm impressed - Awesome!, just not sure could /should do that with my neck. Maybe my best bet to begin would be to walk, found site online which outlines a plan for beginners. Have to look it up & post it to see what you think.
Patience is not one of my strong points!

Now for the latest - WH & I have talked about get equity loan to do few needed improvements on house & pay off few bills. Called me to tell me he'd arranged for appraiser to come to house today.
Told me if goes thru & no reason it shouldn't,

• that with lower house note, utilities so that he can pay all of them,

• wants me to set up at bank so that $$ go in a separate savings account for me

• that wants me & kids to have assurance I will always have a home, roof over heads etc.

Also that he is excited about getting house cleaned & fixed up again! He does tend to put things off, so will have to see if he really follows thru & his excitement lasts.

Yours thoughts --Think I should be worried, suspicious that he's up to something ??!!

Time to get ready to go home - actually going to get my nails done, then home to see what latest
chapter in kids soap opera will be - it's beginning to wear really thin.

Have a good one !

up

"On line workout buddy sounds like good idea - how does/would it work?"

I don't know...we'd just make it up as we go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would start over with you...how I began was 10 minutes on the treadmill. That's it. That's walking. It was as long as I could go without going into boredom or feeling uncomfortable in my legs. Then I would change into my swimsuit and soak and stretch in the hot tub, massage my feet, hit the wet sauna and then the dry sauna. No kidding. That was like an hour of pampering for a ten minute walk. I counted getting to the gym, changing into and out of workout clothes and swimsuit and getting home as additional exercise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did it each day after work, M to Th, and by the end of the first week, I was up to almost 20 minutes. And there I stayed. Within three weeks I added in sit ups (they have cool assisted machines). Always the same pampering afterwards.

That is where I'll start again, this time with you, if you'd like.

"Patience is not one of my strong points!"

I knew that about you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It wasn't mine, either. Another good thing to come out of marital dischord...becoming more patient.

"Think I should be worried, suspicious that he's up to something ??!!" No, I don't think you should worry (it is unhealthy because it holds no reality) or suspicious...ask him. Say that you appreciate all his planning and effort. Is this for creating a better marriage or is he cleaning up stuff for a divorce?"

Ask. Ask. Give yourself permission. Then listen, repeat back and listen.

Good job on the manicure...as for soap opera at home...have you talked w/GF about your belief that she is being destructive and unfaithful? Explain an EA and how you cannot condone it under your roof. That's if you believe it, of course.

LA

So glad your on-line & hope still are....

"....for soap opera at home...have you talked w/GF about your belief that she is being destructive and unfaithful? Explain an EA and how you cannot condone it under your roof. That's if you believe it, of course"

The latest on home soap opera ..here is quote from the email she sent to WH late yesterday..

• "I have told son that I think the moment it is best that I leave the house, at least for now because this is not fair to anyone… this is literally the HARDEST think I have ever had to do in my life but I can not continue to put myself, son, Ariyana, you, TxGal2, or anyone through this. Even if at some point we do get back together, we will be out of the house…"

Here is reply WH sent her: - Interested in what you make of this -

• "Maybe coming from me it doesn't mean much but ( TxGal2) and I had several wonderful years together and many trials and tribulatiuons to deal with. I guess we really loved each other that we could always work things out. The harder things became the closer we got. I didn't care if we lost everything we had ever worked for as long as we were together. What we had was special (still is) but I dont need to bore you with our issues at a time when it's about you and son
  I know the crowded conditions at home is hard to live with not just for you but also Myself and (TxGal2) throught the years. (TxGal2) and I have never had a house to ourselves in our entire life together. I never had any regrets and I would do it all over again if I had too."

Working on reply to rest of your earlier post & to tell about conversation has with H about house stuff..

Wow, Gal...sorry I wasn't still online when you posted. Work got in the way. Darn work.

Just to be sure...your son's GF sent that to your husband, right?

Did you notice that the first person she believes that her staying in the relationship is unfair to...is her? She is fogged out.

You know, I love what your H wrote back...but it is too bad in my opinion, that he didn't take the opportunity to tell her about the fog, his affair, why it was and how it doesn't give you anything worth ruining your family over. He just said the next most brilliant stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do you think that his A was trying to find his own spot in the crowded spot? Going outside, away, symbolizing room to breathe? I only guess that because usually what we are telling others, we are telling ourselves.

Can't wait to read what you think and conversation about house. If your son's family does move out (and it looks like that's a possibility), maybe your H is wanting to come home to share your home, repair and improve it with you, for just the two of you?

Do you think you could pick your H over your son?

I won't be on until tomorrow morning...hubby time tonight. I'll be thinking of you!

LA

Yeah..work does get in the way at times! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Correct, son’s GF sent email to my husband.

• Did notice that – but she’s told son, that Ariyana (child) should be lst priority, that she needs them both. While she’s been a good mother in past noticed these past few weeks she’s slacked off in her care, i.e., not giving baby her medicine on set schedule, taking her out at night w/her, getting upset with her for acting her age & not listening when she’s told her “no” several times, etc. like she’s tired of being a mother after a year in some ways.
  Also, up until I went to bed last night, GF has not said/told son she was leaving, as far as I know.
  Son has said something has to give & soon..can’t do it much longer. One thing H told her in earlier email was that “there is no sin God doesn’t/can’t forgive”. When I ask him for clarification on what he meant replied – “that if God could forgive she should be able to as well”

• As for what my H wrote in his reply to GF – don’t think he took opportunity to write about the fog, his affair, why it was & how doesn’t give you anything worth ruining family over – is that he is still in fog since has yet to admit to there being anyone else, etc.

Do you think that his A was trying to find his own spot in the crowded spot? Going outside, away, symbolizing room to breathe?

(BTW – I did ask him several times to make list, but he never has. Maybe it's time I should ask again! ??)

• My guess as to some of his ENs I failed to meet, are many, if maybe not all, but especially
  Domestic Support. Also due to him being a very light sleeper & my loud snoring, hadn’t sleep together in several years so have to say Affection / Sexual Fulfillment
  Also aware that iif/when he complained would be in such a way/tone that I’d be extremely defensive, be angry, argue etc lots of LBs. & since he’s admitted to being conflict avoider as I am to some degree, he’d repress his anger, resentment, etc. & withdrew.
  (Know I have a lot of work on me, ahead !)

• Then after his heart attack tried to behave as if all was normal, not smother/protect him make invalid out of him, when that is exactly what I really wanted to do hold, pamper love him, but didn’t show it
  ( Does that make any sense??!! )

".ask him. Say that you appreciate all his planning and effort. Is this for creating a better marriage or is he cleaning up stuff for a divorce?""

• Wish I'd waited so could've used you questions, but shortly after I posted I did ask him if this was in preparation for divorce. He actually shocked, & said "No, that D had not even crossed his mind"! Swore on his father's grave that was for D. ( Bad LB - I replied, ok, but you also swore on your father's grave that there was no one else & we both know better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No reply to my LB..just said No ..again that would enable him to pay for the house & make easier on/for both of us.
  When he called about L email he told me again that house payment would be his always! Both times he indicated he was surprised I'd even think that. He wants me to be able to take part of my paycheck each week & put in account just for me.
  
  H is really excited about getting bills paid off & getting house in shape once again way it use to be & so am I. Hope H follows thru with what he has said, but he does have history of putting things off /not following thru!

As for - “Do you think you could pick your H over your son? “

• Yes, I can as always thought H comes first since was 2 of you before kids & would be 2 of you after they are gone, however might have to be careful how went about it, so H didn’t think was “bad mother” We are both guilty of “enabling” son..has had to face minimum consequences for his actions, H really soft heart where son is concerned.

Gotta run..will try to post more later.

Did you bring your son here to marriagebuilders and show him Plan A? Tell him to read all this stuff and learn what relationships are, how to protect and defend them?

God didn't bring you here just for you, I think.

"a very light sleeper & my loud snoring"

Now we're getting to it. Wish Harley would write something about his. My parents' marriage has been like that for 20 years. Friend at work was already in that stage in her fifth year of marriage.

Very disconnecting.

I wrestled my H's snoring, too. I resented him for it. It is something to POJA. I also noticed that when H was feeling strong, good about himself, he didn't snore. Funny, huh? I tracked his patterns from weight loss to weight gain, confidence, anger, and found when he was having to do stuff he didn't want to do, well it was louder, stronger and overbearhing. There's a combination in there, but if you could fix your own snoring, well, wouldn't that be awesome?

I'm full of guesses with no evidence here, but what if we give ourselves permission for everything--to feel sad, to be energetic (or not); what we do when we're awake and what we're allowed or not to do when we're asleep...what then?

When my H and I slept apart, so did our hearts. It felt like when we went through rough times in our double bed, that in sleep we gave ourselves permission to forgive, even for six hours, with the touch of a leg, a foot, a hand tucked under the tummy of the other. Like our waking disconnection and resentments were permitted, but we fed on unconscious affection. Without that, I couldn't understand him, his words or actions, nor he mine.

"Also aware that iif/when he complained would be in such a way/tone that I’d be extremely defensive, be angry, argue etc lots of LBs. & since he’s admitted to being conflict avoider as I am to some degree, he’d repress his anger, resentment, etc. & withdrew.
(Know I have a lot of work on me, ahead !)"

You read him and he read you. Now you know that is the laziest, most self-protective and self-destructive way to communicate and love. If he complains about something, it must be your fault, your blame; and vice versa. You hear "Fix this!" and so when you complain you are saying the same thing. Feelings just are...and they are his alone, and yours alone. Seperate. Most times, complaints aren't to be fixed but to be heard. If you want something changed, you ask directly for it. But make sure it is within the other person's power and not your own that you're giving way--shoving onto shoulders that shouldn't bear it.

I don't know what fog your H might still be in. I refuse to read him anymore than you. What I hear you doing is attempting to get him to validate his affair, talk about it, confirm it, be remorseful. Why? Because he's a conflict avoider (CA)? How did pressuring a CA work for you in your marriage?

"Then after his heart attack tried to behave as if all was normal, not smother/protect him make invalid out of him, when that is exactly what I really wanted to do hold, pamper love him, but didn’t show it" By reading him, you went contrary to your own desire to express your love. You did what you thought he wanted, not what you ached to do. You bogarted yourself. Yes, I understand. This way of miscommunicating, hiding personal truths, is as common as it is corrosive. Erodes love all the way down and leaves the lover wondering why? I was doing all I knew how? Being true to yourself, shining for who you are, being aware you choose to do this and that, well, where's the corrosion? But being contrary to who you are, living like you think your spouse wants you to live leaves you...alone.

You can mourn the loss of opportunity after his heart attack and let it go. You did then what you were in the habit of doing, but now that you know better, you can do better.

"He wants me to be able to take part of my paycheck each week & put in account just for me." Okay, I'll bite. Why can't you set up an account and have part of your paycheck directly deposited into that savings account? Why does he do it? Is this his usual language of love? Does it speak of love to you or control and dependency?

How much have you chosen to step on your truth in fear of abandonment?

Here I am, happy you're back and posting and feeling like I'm bashing you...must have a lot of this stuff in my life, huh? Your H sounds like your Plan A is working and he wants to come home...to you. To reduce his stress, right his life, find forgiveness from you and for you. All wonderful. Why am I worried?

I have my big anniversary date tonight with H. I'm not dancing inside like I was the last two days. Why? One small trigger...had to call him at work and a woman answered his cell. That hasn't happened in over a year. It wasn't OW, but it could have been. I'm back there all over again when the only way to speak to him was through her at his work. Killed me. Maybe I'm being all probing and disrespectful because I'm hurt all over again? Gosh, I thought I was past this. I really did. Not his doing, mine. My trigger.

Thanks for being here and hearing me out. Feel free to kick my hiney, 'k?

LA

Hope you were able to enjoy your Anniversary Date & had a wonderful time!
Hate those triggers - I had to overcome one Saturday as well - as was getting ready, went to ask H question only to discover him on his cell phone outside!

Had alot going on Saturday, so had to run my errands yesterday. H & I talked & we made decision to tell son's GF that needs to make up her mind & make decision to go or stay that her being out every night / staying out all night can not continue… not fair, is disrespectful , causing extreme tension & stress to all..
She decided to leave - said she would notcame back to son in this house.
Learned that it seems she did not make a single payment onloan signed on ( after she said months ago that she'd made arrangements for payment to be taken directly out of her bank account & also, despite being told month ago or more, the toll road tag on car was out so cost $15 each time go thru, & not to use tollroad- she has continued to use . Lying & stealing, not honoring your word / promise are things I do not tolerate or excuse easily.

Our party was ok - was quite different. I thought was interesting, but I worked on project. H said he had good time, but know that he was difficult for him as was bothered about son & GF, how son was going to react - as H brought it up several times.


Now to responses to your Sat 2/11 4:30PM post:

"Did you bring your son here to marriagebuilders and show him Plan A? Tell him to read all this stuff and learn what relationships are, how to protect and defend them?
God didn't bring you here just for you, I think."

• When started few weeks ago & he asked me about it - I explained about Love bank, LB, En, etc. & told him there was a site that could explain it better & that I also had books that I'd be glad to show him, along with stuff I had printed out. He's not a reader, & hasn't seem interested, but will mention it to him again & show him this time.

"I wrestled my H's snoring, too. I resented him for it. It is something to POJA......"

• My H seemed to resent me also & actually seem to think it was something I did on purpose, not something I couldn't control. Sure weight contributed, as well as my nose - have deviated septum ( cartilage / bone in nose) so only breath thru 1 side nose. Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain. Maybe could have it done now along with alittle plastic surgery on my droopy eyelids & bags under my eyes ?? !!! ) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Couple of other things I remembered happened about this time or shortly after, was I had major surgery, & company I worked for was sold & I was laid off, so H & I quit riding to/from work together as we'd done for almost 10 yrs - it was our time to talk, vent about our day, etc.

"What I hear you doing is attempting to get him to validate his affair, talk about it, confirm it, be remorseful. Why? "

• Simply for him to be willing to discuss situation, to be honest, , quit denying anything is wrong, like "normal" as he's done since d-day. as until then we'll be stuck in limbo. ( maybe good time since what he's just told son's GF needed to make decision. ) Really feel like the bills, house, etc. is leading up to him saying he's chosen OW, that's what my inituation / gut is telling me, not to get my hopes up that will work out, so I won't be as hurt - but have idea will be just bad as d day & day he left.

"Most times, complaints aren't to be fixed but to be heard. If you want something changed, you ask directly for it. "

• Totally agree that is what happened with us

"But make sure it is within the other person's power and not your own that you're giving way--shoving onto shoulders that shouldn't bear it."

• Not sure I understand this - Can you clarify?

"He wants me to be able to take part of my paycheck each week & put in account just for me." Okay, I'll bite. Why can't you set up an account and have part of your paycheck directly deposited into that savings account? Why does he do it? "

• My paycheck is already directly deposited our joint account -- what he's talking about is being about to afford for me to take XX amount out of pay & put in separate account.

"How much have you chosen to step on your truth in fear of abandonment?"

• Not sure what you mean by "my truth"? My beliefs, principles, values?

"Your H sounds like your Plan A is working and he wants to come home...to you. To reduce his stress, right his life, find forgiveness from you and for you. All wonderful. Why am I worried? "

• Why ARE you worried?

"Thanks for being here and hearing me out Feel free to kick my hiney, 'k? "

• Glad to listen & why would I kick you hiney for giving me advise, your take on situation & trying to help from you experience -- why this is here, right? !

Thought about seeing if can get H to fill out EN questionnaire….just need to figure way to word it so he’d more incline to do it. What ya’ think? Also, filling out my LB list & asking him what he thinks & see if he’d make his own list ??? Maybe something along lines of improving / bettering myself..etc. ??

Gotten feeling on several occasions on different subjects, that in way H is wanting/waiting for me to act / do/make certain decisions…??? Almost sure he’s been surprised, as he’s mentioned it in sorta offhand way, in way I’ve handle situation / myself..biggest being that haven’t had any really major angry temper fits & go ballistic, other than Dday,& day he left note, for most part have been cool, calm, & collected--- at least on surface. Kinda plan a w/o knowing at time..more of kill ‘em with kindness, as my grandmother would say!


Now let me go back to one of your earlier posts:
From 1/15/06 @ 3:07PM
"I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"

• How do you do that ??
  
  

From remarks / conversation on Saturday, do believe I'm correct that one of his EN was/is domestic support - in talking about house, said it stunk, with all clutter, etc. hated coming in ( son & I smoke (another EN / LB of H - H dips snuff - but that's different something he does/enjoys, regardless of health )

I have been able to find addresses for various other clubs around town where he/they attend , & am working on exposure letter. Also working on letter to communicate the hurt, devastation has caused, accepting that my not meeting his ENs (as I see them now in hindsight) my LBs.
Would like to also include things he's said he was going to do, but has not followed thru on, What his standards, values, principles are - as has ask me if I didn't know he had them - know he did just think they are different now; also has made comments that my standards aren't up to his &/or same.

Thought about seeing if can get H to fill out EN questionnaire….just need to figure way to word it so he’d more incline to do it. What ya’ think? Also, filling out my LB list & asking him what he thinks & see if he’d make his own list ??? Maybe something along lines of improving / bettering myself..etc. ??

Gotten feeling on several occasions on different subjects, that in way H is wanting/waiting for me to act / do/make certain decisions…??? Almost sure he’s been surprised, as he’s mentioned it in sorta offhand way, in way I’ve handle situation / myself..biggest being that haven’t had any really major angry temper fits & go ballistic, other than Dday,& day he left note, for most part have been cool, calm, & collected--- at least on surface. Kinda plan a w/o knowing at time..more of kill ‘em with kindness, as my grandmother would say!

Time to go home -- check later! (Forgive my errors!)
Have a great evening ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry right back atcha for your trigger. Cell phones. :::: I'm sure the inventors did not imagine them to be used for such evil, did they? I swear, it is the #1 tool for infidelity. Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?

I got over mine pretty rapidly. Funny, because that is how our great anniversary date began. The ending to it, last night on our way home, we were talking and H says, "Well, how did I get over being addicted to OW?" I could have dropped through the floor of the car. It was my own technicality, of course..."I believe you said that you were addicted to a fantasy, not a person." I held my breath. "Same thing, right?" Uhmmmmm...not in my book, huh?

See, I discovered I was a love addict...addicted to my H. Virtually swallowing him to fill myself up. So, me being addicted to him and working it out has been something new to us. When I am very affectionate, he says, "Is that real or the addiction talking?" Well, I work through that, also, because it is a good way not to backslide.

So, him saying he was addicted to HER, well, that bottomed me out. He couldn't see the difference. I maintained, breathed, listened and repeated, but the answer to his question was, "Well, your addiction was going to cost you your family. I believe that's how you conquered it."

"Oh, yeah. That's right."

OHMYGOSH...anyway, lovely time. Thoroughly enjoyed 26 hours together, and was relieved to get to work today.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, back to you, Gal.

About your son and marriagebuilders.

"When started few weeks ago & he asked me about it - I explained about Love bank, LB, En, etc. & told him there was a site that could explain it better & that I also had books that I'd be glad to show him, along with stuff I had printed out. He's not a reader, & hasn't seem interested, but will mention it to him again & show him this time."

I can really see the natural enabler in you showing here. He can search out what he needs...which is a strong Plan A. If he doesn't, his choice. Don't mention it again unless he asks. You've told him there is a way to combat infidelity and save a relationship. His choice.

Was he planning on marrying her ever? Was he still test driving after making a family? Not bashing...just wondering.

"She decided to leave - said she would notcame back to son in this house." Did she really pack up and leave or is just planning to?

"My H seemed to resent me also & actually seem to think it was something I did on purpose, not something I couldn't control. Sure weight contributed, as well as my nose - have deviated septum ( cartilage / bone in nose) so only breath thru 1 side nose. Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain. Maybe could have it done now along with alittle plastic surgery on my droopy eyelids & bags under my eyes"

How did you feel about him creating that resentment for you? You believe it is not something you can control and your H believed you could do or try stuff...what do you think now? I wonder if you think I'm nuts for making a big deal out of this...

"Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain."

How much pain did the growing apart without affection/SF cause? I don't think this was the only solution, but POJA at least, because it was important enough to do something about it. Remember in Lovebusters...annoying habits? They were important enough to be called lovebusters for a reason.

Our own POJA on H's snoring is that I get to sleep first, which is tough sometimes, as H can dose off in 30 seconds and I might take 10 minutes. Used to be hours, though, so I've been working it down myself to get it into a reasonable amount of time. Can't wait til I hit 30 seconds. That's my part. His part is to hold off or sleep in such a way as to mitigate the snoring until I'm out like a light. Takes two of us, but it works. No resentments.

And I talked with H about sleeping apart (yes, behind your back, Gal) and he said he definitely got his unconscious touch as a connection--touch/affection is his primary way of feeling loved. We slept in a motel this weekend in a queen-sized bed. He complained that it was too big. Ours is still a double and that touch while sleeping is that much more readily available.

I liked your humorous remark about tying it into a little well-deserved makeover. Now that's creative thinking!

"H & I quit riding to/from work together as we'd done for almost 10 yrs - it was our time to talk, vent about our day, etc." There ya go! Big info there, huh? See how the things that really connect us slip past us when circumstances change? Your H definitely connected with you through conversation and presence. That's how he's been connecting to you through this year of seperation, too, huh?

"Simply for him to be willing to discuss situation, to be honest, , quit denying anything is wrong, like "normal" as he's done since d-day. as until then we'll be stuck in limbo. ( maybe good time since what he's just told son's GF needed to make decision. ) Really feel like the bills, house, etc. is leading up to him saying he's chosen OW, that's what my inituation / gut is telling me, not to get my hopes up that will work out, so I won't be as hurt - but have idea will be just bad as d day & day he left."

Notice that you didn't own this as your belief. You made it sound like a truth between you. You believe you will be stuck in limbo until he admits, discusses, informs and owns his affair. He may not see it that way. It is your intuition saying why he is now dealing with house repairs, bills, etc. Not his. You're giving yourself future pain with this belief. You have not asked. You don't know. Please don't do this to yourself.

What if you're right? Then you have twice the pain...you have it now and later. Where is the good self care in that?

And if you're wrong? You will have the pain now and not later, but you may feel as if your H is to blame for that pain. Where i sthe good H caretaking in that?

""Most times, complaints aren't to be fixed but to be heard. If you want something changed, you ask directly for it. " Totally agree that is what happened with us"

I believe you guys were really good at this for 10 years in your mutual commute. You knew this and lost it with the routine.

"My paycheck is already directly deposited our joint account -- what he's talking about is being about to afford for me to take XX amount out of pay & put in separate account."

So, his part is just saying you've got room to deposit X amount seperately? You set up the account and split the direct deposit? I'm sorry I didn't get that.

"Does it speak of love to you or control and dependency? How much have you chosen to step on your truth in fear of abandonment?"

I was asking you if him controlling your finances, to this degree, was a language of love for you? Or something you aren't comfortable with but since you fear seperating your finances as an act of abandonment, maybe it was that fear that kept it in place?

Why am I worried? Well, because until this post, you haven't said what a lot of the causes of your distance really were, I guess. I always worry what people are coming back to--I hold the fear my H had, that it would just be more pain and suffering, like a challenge. How would rebuilding be different for you? What are the differences between then and now?

"Thought about seeing if can get H to fill out EN questionnaire….just need to figure way to word it so he’d more incline to do it. What ya’ think? "

I think anytime you approach your partner with an eye to manipulation (getting them to do something you want, even if it is "good" for them in your opinion) is dangerously disrespectful. I'm all for things in their proper order...

Top priority? Getting out all of "your stuff" into a letter or journal and really seeing it, so you weed out the resentments you created from the anger trails that were done to you. After reading through this personal truth letter, you get to see where you could have done better with what you know now (not then).

Part of Step One is owning your stuff to your H. This is what I was in the habit, or allowed myself to do...I know better and do better now. Your declaration of your love and belief in rebuilding a thriving marriage comes at the end of Step Two.

Step Two. Finding out his plans, dreams or expectation for your marriage. Where he stands now and his desire. And you stating your plans, dreams and expectations for your marriage. Simply saying where you stand and what you desire.

Step Three. Depending on Step Two, tell him of your excitement about MB and how relationships work and flourish. Then ask him to look it up or say that you can print out ENs for you both and trade them when completed.

Depending on Step 2 and information from Step Three (if he does it), if Recreational Companionship is in his top 10, then I would print out that list and have fun going over it with him, getting new ideas for the policy of undivided attention (15 hours per week). A little fun before the next step.

Step Four. Then Lovebusters (which he has to fill out for you and you for him). This can be tough to do and hear, but a great proving ground for your change. He puts down his belief of what you do and vice versa. Great information--terrible info if you're defensive. I think you get this part really well, but had to caution anyway.
And it sounds like from you that you've cleared up a lot of lovebusters and he's noticed. You being safe is really important and should be what you own in Step One.

Step Five. If you're both committed, go to MC.

Step Six. Talk about this and ask, respectfully, without argument: "Would like to also include things he's said he was going to do, but has not followed thru on, What his standards, values, principles are - as has ask me if I didn't know he had them - know he did just think they are different now; also has made comments that my standards aren't up to his &/or same." Find out the correct, solid information of what he thinks, feels and believes. Don't take it on assumption, mindreading or judging his actions. Be respectful. If he assumes, mindreads or judges, point out when he does it and calmly ask him not to do that. Encourage him to share his thoughts and feelings and to ask and point out as well. Be safe both ways.

" that in way H is wanting/waiting for me to act / do/make certain decisions…??? "

How do you feel about your belief that is what he's doing? Why don't you ask him if he is wanting/waiting for you to act/do/make certain decisions?

""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
How do you do that ??"

Oh, that's a long post, but if you'll remind me, I'll tackle that in my next one, 'k?

"I have been able to find addresses for various other clubs around town where he/they attend , & am working on exposure letter." Again, your decisions are yours...but I would have hard evidence of the affair (cell phone records, etc.) before exposing. Unless OW is married (and I read that she wasn't) there isn't a lot of good to come out of exposure if the affair is over. Him talking on the cell phone outside is a good indicator, but to whom? Another OW? A new one? Him buying you a Valentine's Day gift? I dunno. Proof is what I advise, then expose if ongoing contact. Period. Right behind you and glad you're making a list to expose.

All errors forgiven. Check!

Have a great evening, too,

LA

Working on reply to your other post, but just
got this eCard( couldn't get it @ work due to filters)
from H.

Front said - You Will Always Be My Valentine
This is wording he wrote:

• I will always consider you my valentine. I don't want to get too mushy here but. Thank you for all the nice gifts for my valentine. It means a LOT !!.
  Have a wonderful day.

I Love You

H
Love Always,
H

What do you think /your opinion?

bump

I didn't know what to say, Gal...

I think it is lovely and uninformative. You know him, I don't. What do you think...that is what matters.

He loves you. The ol' "always have, always will."

You gave him lots of cool stuff for V Day?

LA

Yes, was lovely. What I wanted to think was response to what told him shortly after dday-- "that he NOT tell me “I love you” unless / until such time that you can honestly, truthfully, with your whole heart say it & mean it like a husband, & marriage vows we took" but know in my heart that's not case.
Yeah..gave him movie & candy know he likes, card & replacement container to hold his heart meds around his neck.

Have response to post - will do when get home shortly.

Hope you V-Day was great one!

Here goes - may have missed few, just let me know which ones.

Sorry right back atcha for your trigger. Cell phones. :::: I'm sure the inventors did not imagine them to be used for such evil, did they? I swear, it is the #1 tool for infidelity.

Never know – maybe was man invented them just for that purpose in mind!

Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?

• We’ve had cell phones since we in pouches about the size of man’s shave kit, due to H work
  & at one time they installed phones in autos, which is when his company started paying for phones, then just paid for his, but were allowed to keep my phone on company bill to get better minutes plan/price.

I got over mine pretty rapidly. Funny, because that is how our great anniversary date began. The ending to it, last night on our way home, we were talking and H says, "Well, how did I get over being addicted to OW?" I could have dropped through the floor of the car. It was my own technicality, of course..."I believe you said that you were addicted to a fantasy, not a person." I held my breath. "Same thing, right?" Uhmmmmm...not in my book, huh?
See, I discovered I was a love addict...addicted to my H. Virtually swallowing him to fill myself up. So, me being addicted to him and working it out has been something new to us. When I am very affectionate, he says, "Is that real or the addiction talking?" Well, I work through that, also, because it is a good way not to backslide.
So, him saying he was addicted to HER, well, that bottomed me out. He couldn't see the difference. I maintained, breathed, listened and repeated, but the answer to his question was, "Well, your addiction was going to cost you your family. I believe that's how you conquered it."
"Oh, yeah. That's right."
OHMYGOSH...anyway, lovely time. Thoroughly enjoyed 26 hours together, and was relieved to get to work today.

Okay, back to you, Gal.

About your son and marriagebuilders.

"When started few weeks ago & he asked me about it - I explained about Love bank, LB, En, etc. & told him there was a site that could explain it better & that I also had books that I'd be glad to show him, along with stuff I had printed out. He's not a reader, & hasn't seem interested, but will mention it to him again & show him this time."

I can really see the natural enabler in you showing here. He can search out what he needs...which is a strong Plan A. If he doesn't, his choice. Don't mention it again unless he asks. You've told him there is a way to combat infidelity and save a relationship. His choice.

• Never thought of myself as a enabler – natural or otherwise. – more like a problem-solver!

Was he planning on marrying her ever? Was he still test driving after making a family? Not bashing...just wondering.

• Yes think he was planning on marrying. He’ s not had a job in about 4 yrs. Has sent resume, filled out applications, but even when he’s been honest about his jail time, didn’t get hired. Not making excuses, just facts – don’t think the “sells” himself in interview, use to making it on his good looks/charm, & his attitude.

"She decided to leave - said she would not came back to son in this house." Did she really pack up and leave or is just planning to?

• Ya’ got me there – she took some of her clothes other night, was putting ones off sofa been there minimum of week in plastic bag, made statement that she that wouldn’t be able to take all stuff & didn’t feel like doing this right now & when I offered to bring boxes from work, she said she didn’t want to deal with it. Will see. So guess have to say at this point she’s just taking what she needs.

"My H seemed to resent me also & actually seem to think it was something I did on purpose, not something I couldn't control. Sure weight contributed, as well as my nose - have deviated septum ( cartilage / bone in nose) so only breath thru 1 side nose. Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain. Maybe could have it done now along with alittle plastic surgery on my droopy eyelids & bags under my eyes"

How did you feel about him creating that resentment for you? You believe it is not something you can control and your H believed you could do or try stuff...what do you think now? I wonder if you think I'm nuts for making a big deal out of this...

• I really hate/hated it – especially since was one of his favorite stories was how I snored so loud could here me thru the wall. Or one where he had ear plugs & industrial ear protector & still woke up him
  No I don’t believe my snoring is something I can control, any more than person can control coughing except to hold it in, which doesn’t always work short of surgery, which still gave no guarantee would stop it. Did try number of things, him wearing ear plugs, Breathe Rite strips for nose, etc. Still think the same now.
  No, don’ t think your nuts, just not sure of your reasons, but trust will enlighten me.

"Guess should have it operation to have fixed, but I'm a wimp when comes to pain."
How much pain did the growing apart without affection/SF cause? I don't think this was the only solution, but POJA at least, because it was important enough to do something about it. Remember in Lovebusters...annoying habits? They were important enough to be called lovebusters for a reason.

• Caused way more pain than operation. Guess was truly honest, related it to leaving the toilet lid up or squeezing toothpaste in middle , just have to figure / learn way to deal with it. Mine was always to make list of good / bad points, & good always seem to out weigh bad

Our own POJA on H's snoring is that I get to sleep first, which is tough sometimes, as H can dose off in 30 seconds and I might take 10 minutes. Used to be hours, though, so I've been working it down myself to get it into a reasonable amount of time. Can't wait til I hit 30 seconds. That's my part. His part is to hold off or sleep in such a way as to mitigate the snoring until I'm out like a light. Takes two of us, but it works. No resentments.

And I talked with H about sleeping apart (yes, behind your back, Gal) and he said he definitely got his unconscious touch as a connection--touch/affection is his primary way of feeling loved. We slept in a motel this weekend in a queen-sized bed. He complained that it was too big. Ours is still a double and that touch while sleeping is that much more readily available.

• Made frequent trips early in morning to his bed, but obviously guess wasn’t enough.
  I have to agree about the unconscious touch as connection, even though H hates anyone touching his feet! Then few years before his heart attack in April, 2002, he began having ED problems, H would be really upset, seemed he blamed me so thought was being considerate of his feeling, self esteem & ego, but not initiating as often, but was NEVER because didn't want/need him, just trying to spare his feelings,etc. when couldn't perform as he wanted

I liked your humorous remark about tying it into a little well-deserved makeover. Now that's creative thinking!

"H & I quit riding to/from work together as we'd done for almost 10 yrs - it was our time to talk, vent about our day, etc." There ya go! Big info there, huh? See how the things that really connect us slip past us when circumstances change? Your H definitely connected with you through conversation and presence. That's how he's been connecting to you through this year of separation, too, huh?

• Hindsight is a wonderful (??) thing & at the time my crystal ball was broken !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

• Use to have some really heated arguments, but get things out in open & even cleared up at times ! Besides making up afterward was such fun !!!
  For some reason somewhere along line I quit arguing as didn’t seem to get us anywhere, seemed more like I ; had turned into me nagging (which I detest!) so quit effort as saw no result except me getting mad & upset.

• No sure that he's been connecting to me thru conversation / presence during year been separated

"Simply for him to be willing to discuss situation, to be honest, , quit denying anything is wrong, like "normal" as he's done since d-day. as until then we'll be stuck in limbo. ( maybe good time since what he's just told son's GF needed to make decision. ) Really feel like the bills, house, etc. is leading up to him saying he's chosen OW, that's what my initiation / gut is telling me, not to get my hopes up that will work out, so I won't be as hurt - but have idea will be just bad as d day & day he left."

Notice that you didn't own this as your belief. You made it sound like a truth between you. You believe you will be stuck in limbo until he admits, discusses, informs and owns his affair. He may not see it that way. It is your intuition saying why he is now dealing with house repairs, bills, etc. Not his. You're giving yourself future pain with this belief. You have not asked. You don't know. Please don't do this to yourself.


What if you're right? Then you have twice the pain...you have it now and later. Where is the good self care in that?

And if you're wrong? You will have the pain now and not later, but you may feel as if your H is to blame for that pain. Where is the good H caretaking in that?

• Biggest problem with asking him anything about our situation / relationship, when I do ask he gets grumpy, sorta agitated , &/or says something to effect that we’ve been over it already,
  gets defensive, refuses to answer, or some variation, etc. does no good to ask, if H won't answer

• I ask him what he felt / thought when he sees me. while back & His reply:
  He is looking for the “little girl” he married. Needs to feel about me as he once did – wanting to be with me more than anyone else. Tries to separate guilt, pity, etc. from other feelings

""Most times, complaints aren't to be fixed but to be heard. If you want something changed, you ask directly for it. " Totally agree that is what happened with us"

I believe you guys were really good at this for 10 years in your mutual commute. You knew this and lost it with the routine.

• Agree that is at least part of it..but I didn't see / understand importance it until recently Being rather private person, & always having someone in house was difficult.

"My paycheck is already directly deposited our joint account -- what he's talking about is being about to afford for me to take XX amount out of pay & put in separate account."

So, his part is just saying you've got room to deposit X amount separately? You set up the account and split the direct deposit? I'm sorry I didn't get that.

• With new loan, will lower house note, enable us pay off bills, so will have extra money we have not had, so I will open another checking/savings account , then each week take XX amount out of joint account to put into the new account.

"Does it speak of love to you or control and dependency? How much have you chosen to step on your truth in fear of abandonment?"

I was asking you if him controlling your finances, to this degree, was a language of love for you? Or something you aren't comfortable with but since you fear separating your finances as an act of abandonment, maybe it was that fear that kept it in place?

• Really neither one - just relief as one less stress I've had to deal w/ all the years he's handled bills.

Why am I worried? Well, because until this post, you haven't said what a lot of the causes of your distance really were, I guess. I always worry what people are coming back to--I hold the fear my H had, that it would just be more pain and suffering, like a challenge. How would rebuilding be different for you? What are the differences between then and now?

How would rebuilding be different for you? Different than what ?

• Differences between then & now for me would be that I have learned alot about EN, LB, How relationships should work, all stuff here on MB & put it into practice.

"Thought about seeing if can get H to fill out EN questionnaire.... just need to figure way to word it so he?d more incline to do it. What ya? think? "

I think anytime you approach your partner with an eye to manipulation (getting them to do something you want, even if it is "good" for them in your opinion) is dangerously disrespectful.

I'm all for things in their proper order...

Top priority? Getting out all of "your stuff" into a letter or journal and really seeing it, so you weed out the resentments you created from the anger trails that were done to you.
After reading through this personal truth letter, you get to see where you could have done better with what you know now (not then).

• Working on this one - will take while although already have lots written down <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
  Part of Step One is owning your stuff to your H. This is what I was in the habit, or allowed myself to do...I know better and do better now. Your declaration of your love and belief in rebuilding a thriving marriage comes at the end of Step Two.
  
  Step Two. Finding out his plans, dreams or expectation for your marriage. Where he stands now and his desire. And you stating your plans, dreams and expectations for your marriage. Simply saying where you stand and what you desire.
  
  Step Three. Depending on Step Two, tell him of your excitement about MB and how relationships work and flourish. Then ask him to look it up or say that you can print out ENs for you both and trade them when completed.
  
  Depending on Step 2 and information from Step Three (if he does it), if Recreational Companionship is in his top 10, then I would print out that list and have fun going over it with him, getting new ideas for the policy of undivided attention (15 hours per week). A little fun before the next step.
  
  Step Four. Then Lovebusters (which he has to fill out for you and you for him). This can be tough to do and hear, but a great proving ground for your change. He puts down his belief of what you do and vice versa. Great information--terrible info if you're defensive. I think you get this part really well, but had to caution anyway.
  And it sounds like from you that you've cleared up a lot of lovebusters and he's noticed. You being safe is really important and should be what you own in Step One.
  
  Step Five. If you're both committed, go to MC.
  
  Step Six. Talk about this and ask, respectfully, without argument: "Would like to also include things he's said he was going to do, but has not followed thru on, What his standards, values, principles are - as has ask me if I didn't know he had them - know he did just think they are different now; also has made comments that my standards aren't up to his &/or same." Find out the correct, solid information of what he thinks, feels and believes. Don't take it on assumption, mindreading or judging his actions. Be respectful. If he assumes, mindreads or judges, point out when he does it and calmly ask him not to do that. Encourage him to share his thoughts and feelings and to ask and point out as well. Be safe both ways.
  
  " that in way H is wanting/waiting for me to act / do/make certain decisions???? "
  
  How do you feel about your belief that is what he's doing? Why don't you ask him if he is wanting/waiting for you to act/do/make certain decisions?
  
  
  • Resistance - as feel is so he can avoid guilt, by justifying/ excusing it as my choice/decison.
• 
  
  
  ""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
  How do you do that ??"
  
  
  • Oh, that's a long post, but if you'll remind me, I'll tackle that in my next one, 'k?
• 
  
  
  "I have been able to find addresses for various other clubs around town where he/they attend , & am working on exposure letter." Again, your decisions are yours...but I would have hard evidence of the affair (cell phone records, etc.) before exposing. Unless OW is married (and I read that she wasn't) there isn't a lot of good to come out of exposure if the affair is over. Him talking on the cell phone outside is a good indicator, but to whom? Another OW? A new one? Him buying you a Valentine's Day gift? I dunno. Proof is what I advise, then expose if ongoing contact. Period. Right behind you and glad you're making a list to expose.
  
  
  • Last I knew she was still married, but her H living w/ OW. Could be divorced by now, not sure how I'd find out, although do have her ss no.
• <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
  
  I've also been printing out & reading your post on other threads..finding lots of good advice (& some questions also)
  one that comes to mind is Resentment Timeline..not sure about timeline part. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Will work on it after what you've given me.
  
  Really appreciate your time & patience in helping, advising, & supporting me - help me so much, tho' know I have a very loooooooonnnnnggg way to go!

So many places to start...feels like it is raining opportunities.

Okay, taking a stab:

"Never thought of myself as a enabler – natural or otherwise. – more like a problem-solver!"

I asked you before about this tendency of yours...I think I called it being a fixer and what your belief about that was. Sounds like it is something you like about yourself. This was critical to me understanding why my H feared me so much, and how I crossed his boundaries, and the boundaries of everyone else. Lemme know how the problem solver is working for you.

"Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?" I didn't get where you had checked his records for the solid proof of his A and its current status? Including Saturday's stepping outside cell phone call? Did I get lost?

"Caused way more pain than operation. Guess was truly honest, related it to leaving the toilet lid up or squeezing toothpaste in middle , just have to figure / learn way to deal with it. Mine was always to make list of good / bad points, & good always seem to out weigh bad"

I really respect your honesty here. I don't get a smidgen of you answering the way you THINK I want you to--you're all you, and I just had to admire you for that.

I see where you said the operation had no guarantees to stop your snoring...would that have gone in the bad point pile? How much does symbolism mean to you? The act of having the operation as an attempt to give your H relief might have been big enough so that the results might not have mattered. That would be the guarantee. Because you ascribed it to the toilet seat up category, instead of the daily pain of rejection and disrespect your H might have experienced. See, that would be a brave gesture of respect, "I don't believe my snoring should be held against me, but I see it is very important to you. I love you and will do this to demonstrate that your feelings matter very much to me." Huge act, could not be taken lightly. Afterall, your snoring doesn't bother you. Not a sacrifice (you did try other methods), but an act of love.

Again, I think this is part of what you want to consider in recovering your marriage. This isn't a small issue to step over, right? Lack of affection/SF from sleeping in seperately cuts into filling your H's (and your) ENs.

Guess I'm throwing that into all the steps I wrote about. Those steps may get you to where you want to go...worth looking at what that "where" might look like and require, eh?

"Hindsight is a wonderful (??) thing & at the time my crystal ball was broken!" Hindsight gives you constructive foresight...it isn't there for throwing away. How will you incorporate this togetherness, safe vent time, into your new marriage? There was no blame in what I said--you heard me saying you should have foreseen this. I was congratulating you on seeing it at all, even in your rearview mirror.

"but get things out in open & even cleared up at times !"

Seems like Honesty and Openness (albeit with a few lovebusters thrown in) was in the car with you, also. You emotionally connected for ten years. What can you do now to insure that you remain honesty and open, present and communicative in recovery?

Conversation can be email, too. Different rhythm, still communication and a touch of presence, attention in there, I think.

"Biggest problem with asking him anything about our situation / relationship, when I do ask he gets grumpy, sorta agitated , &/or says something to effect that we’ve been over it already, gets defensive, refuses to answer, or some variation, etc. does no good to ask, if H won't answer"

"H, I want to be married to you in person, not seperated. I feel I have grown and changed and am continuing to do so. I know I can't be the little girl you married, but I know I can be a wonderfully grown woman, best friend and partner. I have learned that people can fall in love with each other over and over again. I've learned the whys and hows of it. I believe in you and our marriage. I would like to know what you believe and how you feel."

What's to get defensive about? Where's the attack? You can hear the question without demanding an answer in it. Why base your actions on his response (or refusal to respond)? You state your truth.

You described your H as being very disrespectful of you. In your description, you sound disrespectful of him.

I am not bashing, but observing...and I could be seeing this through my experience, not yours. When you say, "just trying to spare his feelings,etc." that is being disrespectful because you are attempting to control what you can't and any attempt to do that tells your H that you can and will spare his feelings or only allow him certain ones. It is not that you intend any disrespect at all...you have a belief that you can fix, solve, cure, spare, aid, help, better, enhance, cajole, coax and cause others' feelings. That's where I was going back on another page, I think.

Now I am feeling concern that you'll hear me blaming you instead of encouraging you. It was extremely difficult for me to get how disrespectful I was--heck, I was working so hard to be the compassionate fixer who thought if everyone who hurt me didn't realize it. I had no idea that was true disrespect. I lived with DJ beliefs, handed DJs out left and right and to myself, also. I had a signal, though. I never understood what respect meant. My stepmother would say, "You may not love me, but you da^n well better respect me."

I was so confused. I eschewed the word for half my life after leaving home. I knew admiration and thought it meant respect. It is a tough word. Does it mean accept? Don't oppose? Don't think or act differently than the one demanding respect? What does it mean? Don't be bad, argue, feel disloyal, abandon...what?

What does it mean to you?

Okay...what did you think of all my pushy steps?

"Resistance - as feel is so he can avoid guilt, by justifying/ excusing it as my choice/decison."

What does this mean? People can't avoid guilt--it is an emotion, one that is for keeping us from doing something with bad consequences. Remorse is what we feel when we actively want to amend those consequences. One tries to insure we know and understand what not to do, and the other is comes to indicate that we wish we hadn't and want to correct our actions. Your H may attempt to justify or excuse, but that is his own issue, not yours. Our actions are a seperate truth. How we view them is subjective and an opinion. The actions are mutual facts. Making decisions are just that--making them. He can't make you make them and you can't make them for anyone else. God gave us breath, but before he even created us, he gave us respect in choice. Our choices. If your H chooses not to choose, then he's making a choice. You have to make yours. You establish what you want and choose. Choose marriage. Ask him to move back in when your son moves out in two months. Or one, or whenever you choose.

Btw, did son's GF take your grandchild or is your son her primary caregiver?

Ask your son to find out if they are married by common law and what he has to do to get child support now that they are seperated, if he is the primary caregiver.

Taking action from your own integrity is the respectful thing to do. Taking action based on how another person might or might not respond is manipulation.

Now I feel redundant, realizing you're reading my other threads (which THRILLS me). Do I sound like I'm nagging? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
How do you do that ??"" I ended up answering this in my post to weneedhelp today. You were on my mind so I guess it slipped out. I keep promises, but I don't necessarily keep them as expected.

Question on Resentment Timeline...uhm, that's kinda where I was going with your "get it all out" letter. Coming at you sideways for that one. I bet with what you've written you can pull out all your resentments and put them in a seperate entry, chronologically. This was the very best gift I gave myself. Worth doing before you complete your letter. Talk about them with me here and you might look at your letter with new eyes.

There's no time limit or rush to a finish line, Gal. We only get where we're going by going there. I won't measure your progress if you won't, 'k? You're here, taking just as much time and devotion (and patience) with me. Two way street to mutual growth. And you are very welcome.

LA

LA

Hope you've had Happy Friday !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've made my first list of resentments, like in your reply to Vivivanviv's thread "Our Resentments". Should I post them here for your review?

Weather here is predicted to be cold, cloudy & rainy for the weekend, so I'm going to try & get my errands/grocery shopping done after work today so can stay in all weekend working on my MB stuff for you as well as start on my de-junk / de-clutter house project one of my LBs !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
In fact may be #1 on this list.

Stay warm & have a great evening! Will check here later!

Happy Friday...and brrrr! It is six degrees here, and I have to say, six degrees of seperation between frostbite and not...burrrr!

Sounds like a great plan you have for this weekend. I've got stories to edit and a writers critique group to attend, so my weekend is fabulous for me.

You don't have to post your resentments. What do you mean by first list? Is it all of them?

Good luck on the de-clutter...you can help me with that when we re-carpet in April, 'k?

Stay warm and toasty,

LA

Brrr..6 degrees Gez & I said our weather was to be cold when just gonna be around upper 30-40 for low & high low 50's tomorrow, of course with the wet & high winds will seem much colder! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I did manage to get my errands run & grocery shopping down..even squeezed a short visit w/ my daugher before she left work (she's manager at a resturant)& lucked out as got to see my oldest GD, & my niece too---all in all a enjoyable evening & productive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I said first list as if I understood correctly next step is
"Then you re-read what poured out of you. Dig around a second time for any more of them and add what you come up with. Then you let it sit there for two days. Then re-read once more"

• "I won't tell you the next step because I didn't know it until four days had passed. If you'll do this ...and come back I'll give you the next part. I really appreciate that you see how critical resentment is within a relationship."

I now see how H resentments most likely lead to withdrawal, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have actually de-junked/de-cluttered my sewing/craft room twice in as many years, but unless you were me could never tell it..looks worst in some ways than did before. Will be hard to part with some of things, but know it's one of my H major LBs, so will do it since know won't ever use most of stuff & to be honest I've been tired of clutter for while now myself as barely has path to walk thru..just takes while to go thru it all & decide what will keep besides my books. As my D,& GD were kidding me at Xmas with stuff have back there could open my own fabric store, hobby/craft store & even my own book store!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> H also mentioned it along w/ master BR -which won't take as much to get it back.
Hardest to give up will be all my square dance stuff, as love to dance, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but doesn't look like I'll be doing it anytime near future so will try to sell it on eBay & make alittle bit on it at least.

Figure to start in dining room, since first room see when walk in front door, then kitchen, & den. Know won't get all 3 done, but at least get started & give me incentive to keep going, I hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Will take time out to reply to other post.

Have good evening & keep warm!

How did the decluttering go? We're back into sunny skies and manageable degrees...enough of them so I'm not shivering anymore.

Thinking of you,

LA

Really dreary day here, cloudy, overcast w/ 50-80% chance of rain…kinda matches my mood.

OK, get beverage of your choice, comfortable chair & settle in..this is gonna be long…

Have to admit that since last post I have been on roller coaster ride emotionally, getting very mixed signals from H, very apprehensive & downright scared of unknown of future & my ability to handle it.

Read over & added to my resentment list; come to some surprising & unpleasant feelings/thoughts & insights about myself, beliefs, etc.

Will try to explain what I think I’ve learned in way that is understandable, if confusing at times..just way is in my mind & way I feel / felt at time:

• •Seems I have tendency to have/get idea / expectation of how things will/ should/ want to happen, then get upset/angry/resentful when don’t
  •Feel should not have to ask & if have to, then not sincere….. example if have to remind someone of b’day, then if get gift doesn’t have same meaning, more like duty, obligation ( does that make sense?)
  •Don’t like to have to remind repeatedly to do what to me is “common sense” things
  •Don’t like when told will do something, but don’t follow thru, so doesn’t get done
  •Figured out / realized that at some point I quit fighting / trying, just gave up, kinda shut down out of frustration as only upset me so in order to avoid that
  •Like things to work as should
  •Know I’m been lazy..so much want / need to do, just overwhelmed, but no energy / motivation seems only one willing to do work to get it done
  •Feel entitled to certain things – working on this one still

• ??? could it be I like to feel sorry for myself, that these are really things I do myself ---hope not – makes me out as bad person!! Think I’m back for the Next Step you talked about in your Resentment Timeline!

In past few weeks, between kids situation & getting house refinanced to pay off bills, had lots of contact/phone conversations with H, most initiated by him.
In last week have sensed the following from / in him:
•Sense of relief, relaxing, ease
•Sense from things / way he says that has some plan / agenda
Like –
•Said house note would always be his
•That with house refinanced house note would be less & that if should anything happen to him I could with alittle scrimping be able to handle bills
•Wants to get life insurance policy on him,
•Arrange monthly bills set up so can pay by phone or on-line
•Make sure my car running - get suspension, brakes,etc.fixed
•References to us, mostly in the past tense
•Do know from talking w/ his mother & later in day w/ him that he went out of town to dance last weekend…when I talked w/ him he was in car on way back & eating, said he’d call me back as had phone, eating burger, holding drink & French fires between his legs while driving..so made it sound like he was along, but I didn’t ask if dance partner was w/ him
•Has told me what’s he’s doing, although still avoids contact when if involves OW
•Did make it point other day that was going to dance whether had partner to go w/him or not
•Also did tell me that one that that made him angry with me was my being a pessimist..as he was also one deep down & that 2 together wasn’t good thing!!
Then Yesterday…
•He talked about band we always liked was going to be place we use to go to in March..sorta like was feeling me out, maybe gonna ask me to go ???
•Also, said they were playing at private party in nearby town & friend lives there was able to get him in, but no other details as to when, just that he was getting to go
Seem to get sense that once bills paid & house restored to condition in when bought it , he will be done – not have to have as much contact w/ me as has had in last year about bills, problems with things around house. Maybe like his duty, responsibility will be done.
Son mentioned that he got idea that his dad was going to take/act on advise he gave son’s GF to make up her mind to stay or go…son seems to think he’ll come back home.

I took your advise to ask H. rather than “reading” him so.sent him email ..
To commit to being completely truthful & honest with each other
His thinking in signing V-day card sent me w/ ILU,not once but twice, when I’d requested him not to do so months ago, unless/until he meant it as husband should
Haven’t gotten no reply/response of any kind, not even mention that he even got the emails
Also, noticed he’s been calling me more in past weeks than emailing as use to do to contact me


From your last post:
Decluttering didn’t go as I hoped/planned, got little done, but not nearly as much as hoped/wanted!!
Taking way longer than thought it would, but guess have to remember took while to get like it is, so not going to clear up overnight!! Have to break it down in smaller bits that I can get done, so can see results & stay motivated, not get overwhelmed & give up

From your 2/15/06 Post:
So many places to start...feels like it is raining opportunities.
Okay, taking a stab:
"Never thought of myself as a enabler ? natural or otherwise. ? more like a problem-solver!"
I asked you before about this tendency of yours...I think I called it being a fixer and what your belief about that was. Sounds like it is something you like about yourself. This was critical to me understanding why my H feared me so much, and how I crossed his boundaries, and the boundaries of everyone else. Lemme know how the problem solver is working for you.

• Others, including my H might disagree but to me being problem-solver means that I offer several suggestions /options/ideas on ways could be solved. However, sure at times have gone overboard.
  As to how it's working for me in this situation - not too well as this is way beyond anything ever experienced - when was younger was stronger, had permanent job, sure could make it on my own & pretty sure I'd already filed for D by now
  That said beginning to see that maybe I am / have been, as well as controlling type..not pretty thought or something I really like to admit as never liked “controlling people”, especially wives.

"Btw, did you check his records for proof of the A?" I didn't get where you had checked his records for the solid proof of his A and its current status? Including Saturday's stepping outside cell phone call? Did I get lost?

• Cell phone account was in/thru his company – at least use to be as know when house broken into few years ago & son’s phone was stolen, H said wasn’t able to get cell phone records.
  That said, have noticed on bank statement since Aug ’05 that payment has been made directly to cell phone company, which leads me to believe that account for H & my phone is now in H name. Tried to access account for my phone,on line, but didn’t have password. To make long story short don’t have access to account to get cell phone records.

"Caused way more pain than operation. Guess was truly honest, related it to leaving the toilet lid up or squeezing toothpaste in middle , just have to figure / learn way to deal with it. Mine was always to make list of good / bad points, & good always seem to out weigh bad"
I really respect your honesty here. I don't get a smidgen of you answering the way you THINK I want you to--you're all you, and I just had to admire you for that.

• I try to just be me most of time – not say/do what THINK other think I should/will say/do

I see where you said the operation had no guarantees to stop your snoring...would that have gone in the bad point pile? How much does symbolism mean to you? The act of having the operation as an attempt to give your H relief might have been big enough so that the results might not have mattered. That would be the guarantee. Because you ascribed it to the toilet seat up category, instead of the daily pain of rejection and disrespect your H might have experienced. See, that would be a brave gesture of respect, "I don't believe my snoring should be held against me, but I see it is very important to you. I love you and will do this to demonstrate that your feelings matter very much to me." Huge act, could not be taken lightly. Afterall, your snoring doesn't bother you. Not a sacrifice (you did try other methods), but an act of love.
Again, I think this is part of what you want to consider in recovering your marriage. This isn't a small issue to step over, right? Lack of affection/SF from sleeping in seperately cuts into filling your H's (and your) ENs.


Guess I'm throwing that into all the steps I wrote about. Those steps may get you to where you want to go...worth looking at what that "where" might look like and require, eh?
"Hindsight is a wonderful (??) thing & at the time my crystal ball was broken!" Hindsight gives you constructive foresight...it isn't there for throwing away. How will you incorporate this togetherness, safe vent time, into your new marriage? There was no blame in what I said--you heard me saying you should have foreseen this. I was congratulating you on seeing it at all, even in your rearview mirror.
"but get things out in open & even cleared up at times !"
Seems like Honesty and Openness (albeit with a few lovebusters thrown in) was in the car with you, also. You emotionally connected for ten years. What can you do now to insure that you remain honesty and open, present and communicative in recovery?
Conversation can be email, too. Different rhythm, still communication and a touch of presence, attention in there, I think.

"Biggest problem with asking him anything about our situation / relationship, when I do ask he gets grumpy, sorta agitated , &/or says something to effect that we?ve been over it already, gets defensive, refuses to answer, or some variation, etc. does no good to ask, if H won't answer"
I am not bashing, but observing...and I could be seeing this through my experience, not yours. When you say, "just trying to spare his feelings,etc." that is being disrespectful because you are attempting to control what you can't and any attempt to do that tells your H that you can and will spare his feelings or only allow him certain ones. It is not that you intend any disrespect at all...you have a belief that you can fix, solve, cure, spare, aid, help, better, enhance, cajole, coax and cause others' feelings. That's where I was going back on another page, I think.
Now I am feeling concern that you'll hear me blaming you instead of encouraging you. It was extremely difficult for me to get how disrespectful I was--heck, I was working so hard to be the compassionate fixer who thought if everyone who hurt me didn't realize it. I had no idea that was true disrespect. I lived with DJ beliefs, handed DJs out left and right and to myself, also. I had a signal, though. I never understood what respect meant. My stepmother would say, "You may not love me, but you da^n well better respect me."

• Didn’t think I was being disrespectful either – just considerate & compassionate !!

I was so confused. I eschewed the word for half my life after leaving home. I knew admiration and thought it meant respect. It is a tough word. Does it mean accept? Don't oppose? Don't think or act differently than the one demanding respect? What does it mean? Don't be bad, argue, feel disloyal, abandon...what?
What does it ( respect) mean to you?

• Looked it up & this pretty much defines it for me:
  •esteem: the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard"
  •an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"
  •deference: a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean"
  •obedience: behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes"
  •regard: a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect"
  •regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgment"; "We prize his creativity"
  •show respect towards; "honor your parents!"
  •deference: courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy"
  •Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people
  •To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
  •To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
  •To relate or refer to; concern.
  •Used as Noun.
  oA feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem..
  oThe state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
  oWillingness to show consideration or appreciation.
  orespects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.
  oA particular aspect, feature, or detail: In many respects this is an important decision.
  •respect - (usually preceded by `in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect
  •respect - the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard
  •respect - an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"
  •respect - a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean
  •respect - behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes
  •respect - a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect
  •respect - courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy"
  Used as Verb
  orespect - regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgment"; "We prize his creativity

Okay...what did you think of all my pushy steps?

• Actually don’t think they are “pushy” at all, being a Virgo I do like plan/organization, despite fact a lot of time does not appear that I am organized at all !!! Give me something to work from, plan.

“……when your son moves out in two months. Or one, or whenever you choose.”

• Don’t think son intends to move out anytime, at least not in near future – has bird nest on the ground!

Btw, did son's GF take your grandchild or is your son her primary caregiver?
Ask your son to find out if they are married by common law and what he has to do to get child support now that they are separated, if he is the primary caregiver.

• Son keeps child during day during week while GF works, in return understand she will continue to pay his car note/insurance & TV payment as well as give him little spending money instead of paying $600/month to put baby in child care

Now I feel redundant, realizing you're reading my other threads (which THRILLS me). Do I sound like I'm nagging?

• Not nagging at all ! Might repeat same thing in different ways , but as BS feel I need that to clarify see things better, different way, with different eyes in order to grow, improve,etc.

""I stopped the AOs without suppressing my anger"
How do you do that ??"" I ended up answering this in my post to weneedhelp today. You were on my mind so I guess it slipped out. I keep promises, but I don't necessarily keep them as expected.

• Need to re-read this & work on it

Question on Resentment Timeline...uhm, that's kinda where I was going with your "get it all out" letter. Coming at you sideways for that one. I bet with what you've written you can pull out all your resentments and put them in a seperate entry, chronologically. This was the very best gift I gave myself. Worth doing before you complete your letter. Talk about them with me here and you might look at your letter with new eyes.

• Oops..just noticed I was to put order chronologically when I didn’t do..but here’s what have so far..seems just when think have all, another will come to mind
  Resentments toward H:
  •Not appreciating & acknowledging that my working thru the years contributed
  •Seeing only my faults, mistakes, things not done, things not doing
  •Comparing me to others , pointing out how they did things, what they did better
  •Not appreciating & accepting me for me
  •Not treating me w/ common courtesy, manners, i.e. opening doors, staying w/ me at functions, making sure had drink, etc.
  •Telling / joking in derogatory manner about private things, even after asking H not to do so
  •I went to his softball games out of town & in, for years, even tho' truly did not like sports & yes LB'd often voiced that my dislike, but only after requesting number of times that would help if he'd be willing to at least compromise by taking me somewhere on the out of town trips that I enjoyed. Few times he did was very begrudgingly, acting agitated, grumpy, etc thus ruining it
  •Treating others with kindness, consideration
  •Understanding other point of view,
  •Not helping around house, without having to be ask - that was woman's work
  •Running me down, belittling, demeaning me/my abilities, etc. w/kids, especially son thru years
  •Not presenting united front w/ son
  •Not making son do chores, help around house
  •Not allowing son to take responsibility, experience consequences & be accountable for his actions,
  •Raising son w/ double standard & exactly opposite of how did daughter
  •Not asking or seeming to care how my day went.
  •Insinuating that my job wasn't hard, stressful, etc., since I all did was sit at desk all day
  •Allowing trival things that he chose not to disclose in clear, direct manner something bothered him & let them fester into much bigger problem
  •Making choice to leave without giving any reason(s) - just " about him, not me", loved me wasn't in love w/me" just a "few little problems
  •All deceptions, lies, etc. - including when say/do something knew would give/lead to certain impression / conclusions
  •Violating my love & trust
  •Stealing my hopes, dreams, stability, safety
  •False assurances, when ask if /what problem - that OW & he were/are "Just Friends"
  •Not even giving me / us chance to work on problems issues
  •Rejecting me without giving me chance or any reason
  •Leaving after 40+ yrs to be alone, without any affection, love, security, just for p$$$y
  •Not even wanting to disclose / discuss our "few little problems" after being separated over year
  •Leaving me in limbo
  •Breaking promise & marriage vows
  •Changing the rules without letting me know he had
  •Saying he had principles, values, standards when he has gone against all he ever said he believed in, taught kids was right,,
  •Taking away my being able to retire & live comfortably, enjoy traveling, dancing, etc
  •Not doing upkeep / maintaining house - nothing preventative , only when broken / something wrong
  •Saying will / is going to do something, but not following thru with actually doing it
  
  Resentment, Frustration, Anger At Myself
  •admit. I think I resent myself, my stupidity and gullibility, my own trust, more than anything now
  •Thinking I was being grown up, mature adult by dealing with things he said/ did that didn't
  •like,..especially the trivial ones like leaving toilet seat up, squeezing toothpaste from the middle, by
  accepting the things I cannot change; having courage to change the things I can;and wisdom to know the difference
  •Although he is one made choice/decision not to disclose in clear, direct timely manner the issues/problem so that I knew their existence or importance, betrayed my love trust w/ lies, deceit, deception, false assurances, lying by omission, finding someone else..yet somehow I am to blame, it is my fault, should have know his complaints were actually his way of saying problem !!
  •Seem to put everything else - softball, work, dancing, etc. ahead of me - didn't feel I was "first" or a priority in his life

Hope were able to make it thru & you didn’t fall asleep trying!
Also that I was able to express myself in way that enables you to understand what I was/am trying to say…should you have doubt know you will ask me !! Am eagerly awaiting your feedback to this post!
Suppose to close on house Monday so I took day off. H said we’d have lunch to celebrate!
Working on note asking him what he sees/thinks needs to be done to house, in what order and what his timeline for getting all done. Not sure if should include in it fact that he’s said this about house before but failed to follow thru with actions – guess that might be a DJ, LB ??? ( Will post it for your review & comment before give it to him)

Feel I have/am learning a lot about myself, how I think, etc. wasn’t aware of before, some I admit don’t necessarily like, but at least now getting to honest truth & how others (& H) saw/see me!!!
Owe this to you, your insight, willingness to help, patience
& experience..thanks!

PS - Can you explain how to listen & repeat - I have a really hard time with trying to do it, but think/know would really help if could learn to do it well!!!!

I have chai tea and crangrape next to me...a blanket over my lap...thanks for the warning. I LOVE that you posted a long one.

"??? could it be I like to feel sorry for myself, that these are really things I do myself " Big, gigantic kudos on realizing something really important. Now, get to the pay off...why does feeling sorry for yourself comfort you? Mine? Well, if I wasn't getting attention, consideration, appreciation from others...then I will give those things to myself, in a really tortured way--feeling sorry for myself admitted I was real, I existed and was entitled to stuff. Which meant, when I was building up all the resentments for the shoulds, have tos, ought tos that I assigned others, I wasn't giving myself what I wanted in the first place. I was trying to milk it out from them.

I focused on what I deserved and then did that for others so they would do it for me. How indirect is that? I wasn't giving it to myself at all!!

Resentment made me feel right...had that logic to it. Letting that go, stopped focusing on what others didn't give me (in the way I wanted them to and WHEN I wanted them to) and began giving directly to myself.

Attention? How am I feeling? What am I thinking? Where's my focus? All that says I am and I matter. No judgment...just information. "Will this choice make me feel better or worse? Add to my respect or diminish it? More attention and now, consideration. No judgment. And each question I ask shows I appreciate myself, that I matter. For every time I ask, "How are you doing?" to others, I better be asking that of myself.

"---hope not – makes me out as bad person!!" Just want to point out the super important part above...NO JUDGMENT.

That was key to stopping me making new resentments. In your standards, make the tenet "I will not judge others nor myself." In your boundaries, "I will not allow others to judge (define) me." That takes care of a whole lot of resentment right there!

Have a problem with that no judgment thing? Well, you don't allow yourself to judge others (good/bad). You do allow yourself to judge their actions (mean/kind/loving/hateful). See the difference? You make mistakes but you aren't one. Same for them. You don't total up your judgments of their actions and then judge them good/bad. They are as wonderfully made, with their own purpose, and loved by God exactly as you are.

"Think I’m back for the Next Step you talked about in your Resentment Timeline!" Well, let's go over that awesome truth you posted:

"•Seems I have tendency to have/get idea / expectation of how things will/ should/ want to happen, then get upset/angry/resentful when don’t"

Seems...your truth or are you unsure? Is it what you really do inside your pretty head or are you guessing?

I think it is your truth. I just want you to own it.
"I allow myself to expect a certain result and then allow myself to become angry or resentful when the results aren't what I wanted them to be." Very human. No bad in that. Only thing, you allowing, choosing to do this, seems to hurt you. Why do that? Where's the pay off? Not just feeling sorry...how about security?

I used to believe that if everything went as I planned/expected/worked for...then everyone would be happy and I would be safe from ridicule, being wrong or thrown away. Can you get from your statement to your feelings? If things do go your way, then you feel what? Accepted? Good? Worthy? Safe?

Having those expectations, allowing them in yourself, then is a roll of the dice, don't you think? You'll either end up right or...unacceptable, bad, unworthy and exposed for who you are. Ack. Ick!

"•Feel should not have to ask & if have to, then not sincere….. example if have to remind someone of b’day, then if get gift doesn’t have same meaning, more like duty, obligation ( does that make sense?)"

Of course you make sense. Don't ask. You're stating something very personal and your truth. Don't let my comprehension come into play--heck, if I have to work for it, that's me. Now, what were you saying?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, in this resentment, you allow yourself to expect that others mindread and do it accurately. Is that right? When they get it right, you feel what? I'll use mine (I sooooo did this, too)...accepted, worthy, seen and understood, considered, loved, cherished, imporant...on and on. Same stuff as the first one, really. Okay. But...if you choose to remind them, then you didn't get those marvelous feelings, right? They were tainted...because then you "MADE" them accept you, which took away the worthy, the seen and understood because you had to make yourself seen and understood, considered, loved, cherished and important. Huh. Look at this belief...you can make yourself all those things by reminding. You can give yourself all those things. Huh. Good to know, huh! No expectations involved. You do this. Your power. Your human power.

Now, pretend you already are accepting yourself, know you're worthy; consider, respect and pay attention to yourself...how important is it that others do that? Did the ratio do something to your feelings? You're already getting the result you want without others being responsible for that result...hmmm....getting the results you want, without the roll of the dice, possible disappointment, resentment or feeling sorry for yourself.

Where's the downside?

"•Don’t like to have to remind repeatedly to do what to me is “common sense” things"

Common sense is a judgment. What is logical to you is not to others. It is a misnomer. Not your fault. You're walking through your living room and your son has left his guitar right in the middle of it. You have to walk around it. Common sense would say, anyone would have to walk around it. Real life says...your son may walk through the living room and pick it up, play it, and put it down in the same place. He didn't have to walk around it...he wasn't going into the kitchen. See the diff? Common sense is full of assumptions, mindreading and is a disrespectful way to live. We are raised to believe the opposite. It bond us into a common purpose when we were all created unqiue with a seperate purpose.

Common sense deprives us of our choices. Unless you choose to let go of common sense. That you can see the consequences of actions (stepped on guitar, damage, personal injury) does not mean others must act on it. What you forsee might be valid, but the future ain't here yet. What is underneath common sense is a craving for consideration. Your truth is that you hate that guitar not being put away. You make it known that when it is put away, you feel considered and respected. An act of love. You hear what your son believes and how he feels. You can choose to pick it up and put it where it belongs. You cannot choose to make him do so. You can choose this to be boundary of yours, given your fears of what can happen if it remains, and enforce your consequences (you pick it up and put it in the garage...next time, the garbage...next time donate it to goodwill). Those are your choices. Enforcing them is your responsibility. You accept this as your choice. Your son must know your limits in order to respect them. His choice in how he does that. No manipulation, just choice of action.

You create your own resentment by choosing to repeatedly ask for respect to your boundaries when someone continually crosses them. You do not enforce them progressively (remind once, then act in a predetermined way). You're doing this...not them.

"•Don’t like when told will do something, but don’t follow thru, so doesn’t get done"

Ahh, I'm still working on this myself. Trace this resentment back...far back. Broken promises, where others failed your expectations as a child...all those feelings you had...going to the park then not; learning you can't bank on what loved ones promise...holding tightly to do what you promised, even if you hated doing it, and then resenting them for you following through. Hating yourself when you made a threat and then didn't follow through on it, or did, because you saw it as a promise, an unreasonable promise after it was made. Lots of your reaction to them not fulfilling a promise is yours.

My H is passive aggressive. After I figured out my emotional reaction to his promises was all mine, got into the mental place that I could not force him to agree and then not act, stopped asking him for anything and gave it to myself...guess what? He does stuff. He makes promises to me and holds himself to them. It was his problem that I couldn't solve. I could only stop myself from trying to get him to consider, appreciate and give me security. I accepted he chose. He consciously chose. I'm working to the stage of being able to ask for stuff again...but slowly. Not from what I need him to give me, but what he has shown he enjoys or feels good about. And let me tell you...a lot of praise and admiration from me to him for each and everything he completes that he chose to do. Tons. Valid and sincere admiration. Even what I didn't consider important (for me) but realized was important to him. I gave acceptance and am now receiving it, from myself and him.

"•Figured out / realized that at some point I quit fighting / trying, just gave up, kinda shut down out of frustration as only upset me so in order to avoid that"

You chose to shutdown, not state your thoughts and feelings, quit wanting what you wanted because you weren't getting it, and disconnect to protect yourself. Very common reaction to failed expectations. Instead of examining your expectations, you focused on the results and what feelings those gave you, then fixed that. Funny, but you're almost there in that route, but for a wholly different reason. Your emotions give you information from your beliefs...you believe that killing your want will stop your expectations, which will stop the resulting feelings from failed expectations. Nope. Your emotions will hand you resentment, anger, frustration anyway. Why? Because you are lying to yourself. You still believe others have to fill you. As long as you believe that, you will get those resulting emotions.

However...once you change your belief, you will not expect others to give you what you need because you will be doing that for yourself. So you won't have the resulting emotions from failed expectations...unless you aren't giving yourself what you need. By lifting this extreme burden from others, they will fall out of pattern themselves.

What they choose in how they act towards you will be theirs...out of your control. How you act towards them, from your code, and not gut reactions, will be different. Instead of shutting yourself down, you open yourself up, feel the freedom from the pattern of disappointment, nurture yourself--love that overflows from you (because you're loving yourself full) spills over everyone without a single selfish demand or DJ. Love because a gift you are living. Think of the possible results...they are mind blowing.

"•Like things to work as should"

Already addressed. I know you get this. All shoulds, ought tos, have tos, etc. are of your own judgment. Accepting what is, when you release yourself from the myriad expectations you've had your whole life, is new. Everyone is new. Including you. No shoulds are possible. What is, true reality, is amazing, delightful, filled with freedom and brimming with gratitude. Whole new perspective.

And no resentment.

"•Know I’m been lazy..so much want / need to do, just overwhelmed, but no energy / motivation seems only one willing to do work to get it done"

Self judgment...when you shut down your wants and desires to stop you from getting the resulting negative emotions, you pay a price...emotional lethargy. You are betraying, destroying and attacking yourself when you shut yourself down. Can't be good. When you measure others, read their minds for their motivations, feel their actions or inaction is aimed at you...then you are also attacking, destroying and betraying yourself...and them. No respect of seperate realities or humanness. No room for love, acceptance without judgment...no corner is safe.

In your standards, "I will not judge others nor myself" energy will return. You are safe from those old feelings. You have taken action to make yourself safe in a most authentic way. What you won't allow yourself to do to others, you won't allow you to do to yourself. Period.

Balance.

Where your focus is, so is your life.

"•Feel entitled to certain things – working on this one still" Within your pattern of expectations, shouds, why can't they, and why isn't its...doesn't it seem reasonable to feel entitled? If you are doing for others what you want done for you, then wouldn't entitlement be the resulting feeling? Just telling yourself to switch from entitlement (bad) to gratitude (good) won't work...you still have the same beliefs. I should be treated as I treat others. You're not alone. This Golden Rules has urinated on us for long enough. Golden Rule is fine for what it is...without human interpretation. But we believe it is promising us a good life because we add...THEN we'll be treated as well as we treat others. Bad deserves bad. Good deserves good. Nope. Why?

Because we're humans and have no control, ever, not in the past, present or future, over anyone else.

Golden Rule meant...figure out your code...what you won't allow yourself to do to others, what you won't allow them to do to you, and certainly, what you won't allow you to do to yourself.

Balance. Integrity. Common sense? Nothing common about it. Respects everyone to choose their own code given what means most to them. Period.

Okay...end of first response. Breaking this up. Hope you're on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((((((TGal))))))) Thank you so much for posting all of this. You are helping me in many ways through your own journey. I treasure your self honesty and do not judge you.

LA

Yep, I'm here
Gonna get a tall glass iced tea & settle in the read
your "first" response. Sounds like a "second" response will follow!! Hooray!
Just occured to me:
Always valued honesty, as long as didn't try to hurt others..seems one have been least honest with is myself !

Check again soon!

Whew...

I read down through your observations and readings of hubby to this on decluttering:

"Taking way longer than thought it would, but guess have to remember took while to get like it is, so not going to clear up overnight!! Have to break it down in smaller bits that I can get done, so can see results & stay motivated, not get overwhelmed & give up"

You're living a metaphor, TGal...physical decluttering gave you this insight...which could be exactly what you were needing on resentments. All your changes in you, your realizations and your actions. Yes. This is perfect perspective. Use it in all ways about yourself.

I am not ignoring all your H-related list. You show you're being carefully aware of his actions...that you are forming the seeds of the belief he might be cleaning up his life and divorcing. That your son believes the opposite. Both are guesses. When you asked, you got no response. All this means is...you don't know about him. Return your focus to you for now. Once you really get into a new belief system for you and your life, then all of your observations might look different. If they don't, you can act on them with informed choice and choose a balanced response now knowing why you feel what you do, react when you do, and who you are and your code.

I appreciate you going back to other posts and responding...you do keep your promises. I see that.

"Others, including my H might disagree but to me being problem-solver means that I offer several suggestions /options/ideas on ways could be solved. However, sure at times have gone overboard."

My belief is that fixing/problem solving is disrespectful. This is an extreme belief because I was an extreme fixer. I did not see my disrespect of others. That every time I offered a solution, worked towards one or told someone how to do something when they had not asked me for that information, then I was telling them they were not capable, not human, that I had no faith in them and they were stupid.

Ouch. Surely I wasn't like that?

Yup. Thoroughly and ignorantly. My H would share a problem and I would hear that he wanted to not have it. First DJ. I would also hear he couldn't solve it otherwise he would be telling me the solution. Second DJ. I would then supply him with a solution to stop his pain. Third DJ. I trampled on his autonomy and instead of giving him support and acceptance, I tore him down. Fixers destroy others. Pleasers destroy themselves and others.

Listening and repeating is where I began my journey of respect. "I hear you say that __________, is correct?" No advice, hence no judgment. Just me hearing him. He wanted to be heard. End of what my code told me I had to do. First step I'll share with you. Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.

90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution.

So, offering any advice or solutions when they are not asked for is already overboard. Consider how far overboard then you were when you went even farther overboard.

"As to how it's working for me in this situation - not too well as this is way beyond anything ever experienced - when was younger was stronger, had permanent job, sure could make it on my own & pretty sure I'd already filed for D by now"

Then you know why God didn't give you this when you were younger, strong, more independent and just as ignorant of what your part was...he loves your marriage, you and your H, and wants you both to grow joyfully and intimately. Had you ditched the marriage before, you would have taken your lovely but destructive fixin'/pleasin' person into your next relationship and had the same results, would feel all the pain (and that of the divorce) all over again, and maybe gotten to here. To now. That didn't happen. God be praised. I believe that's what he means when he said no more than you can bear. We just can't see it in context.

"That said beginning to see that maybe I am / have been, as well as controlling type..not pretty thought or something I really like to admit as never liked “controlling people”, especially wives."

We will feel anger in ourselves when we see others doing what we do. Otherwise...won't really faze us. Great signal at self-examination. Use that tool to know yourself more.

By the way...I am not telling you to eliminate your controlling, judgmental, self-betraying parts of yourself. I'm asking you to acknowledge all of you...the cruel as well as the loving; manipulative as well as optimistic. I want you to know all that you have in you and why you have those traits. Then for you to accept them as you and why you don't need to act cruelly, manipulatively, controlling or any of them. Find out what they give you, what feelings and beliefs you have...then you'll understand. You are wonderfully made, acceptable to God. And to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your own self-judgment is toxic to you. I'm reading it over and over again. Others love you more freely than you love yourself. Because you made them responsible for you, they can see your worth when you can't; can feel your love when you can't; and accept you as you are, but you CAN'T.

My job is to show you...you can. You're fully capable. Nothing defective about you, TGal. There's joyous living down your dirt road, Ma'am.

"To make long story short don’t have access to account to get cell phone records. " Because you have a cell phone on his account, you can call the company and request hard copy billing records sent to your address, going back to the month you choose. Try it. Or you can have the password changed and sent to your phone (Tmobile) for access.

"I try to just be me most of time – not say/do what THINK other think I should/will say/do" Here I have to challenge you. I hear a lot of your filter coming back to me that says you judge yourself from the outside in. Could be my own filter doing that. Just want you to consider it closely.

I see next that you posted two really long, wordy, verbose paragraphs I wrote and I couldn't find your comments in them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Did you just want me to see how long I take to get to my point? :::: I know this. I do. I'll try harder. I get such acceptance from you because you seem to be okay with my laborious style. I allow myself to go round Texas and back to get to my point. I'll change that, 'k?

"Didn’t think I was being disrespectful either – just considerate & compassionate !!"

What do you think now?

"Looked it up & this pretty much defines it for me:
•esteem: the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard" "

High regard from whom? Now, I'm taking on the dictionary because I believe, like common sense, and the way we were raised, are detrimental. How you define something is yours...you're going to define it that way anyway. That definition may change. It did for me.

High regard of himself...from sticking to his code. You can't make anyone respect you...it is their choice. That's how God set us up.

"•an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"

Now this is what I believe is the most common definition of respect...and it isn't. It is admiration. That's different to me.

"•deference: a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard;"

This is closer to my definition of respect. I recognize that you are seperate from me...have your own perspectives, beliefs and feelings. I accept that and will not judge you by my own beliefs. That is courteous and true in my words and deeds. I choose to defer to your opinion...that means that I receive it as your own and do not judge it nor attempt to change it because I believe differently.

"•deference: courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy"

You say you want privacy, I give it. But we're not married. Heehee. You say, "Stop saying that," I will. Not because you changed my belief or I think I'm out of line...but because you told me you didn't want to hear my belief. I accept that. I show respect. Course, by saying that, I know I was heard. Easier for me in that case, eh?

Ahhhh....relief!!! Wedged in the middle....

"•Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people"

Yes, yes...yes.

Thank you for all of those definitions...melding together, and straining out the admiration ones...I do think that what I wrote to you about fixers/pleasers being disrespectful is valid. Lemme know what you think.

"Don’t think son intends to move out anytime, at least not in near future – has bird nest on the ground!"

Ahhh, but where is your choice in his intentions? His has his own and you have yours. What are yours?

(This is such a big issue, I'll understand delaying any further answers until after the resentment timeline is complete, and all the self stuff I've brought up.)

Wow...now I see where you give me your resentment summary. Oh, boy...whole 'nuther post there. In fact, I'll wait until you read my answering post before this one to get to that.

Jumping to your last request (after your gracious encouragment and appreciation...thank you)...

You have faith so it will work for you. Listen and repeat?

H - "You make me angry when you look so sad!"
TGal - "I hear you feel anger when you see my sadness, is that correct?"
H - "You pressure me with all your questions. I don't know the future anymore than you do."
TGal - "I hear you feel pressure when I ask about our marriage and the future."

I don't believe your H says stuff like this, but my imagination is in short supply this morning. I'm trying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H - "That is a load off my shoulders, this closing on the refi today. You are a high maintenance woman, TGal. Always wanting me to be different."
TGal - "I hear you feel relief that we closed today and that you believe I take a lot of effort to please. I hear you believe I don't accept you."

Later, after you're really good at listening and repeating...you'll get to listening and sharing what you heard, through your filter...only after you feel safe to do this:

H - "You always think I'm not going to follow through."
TGal - "I hear you believe I judge your actions before they happen, is that correct?'
H - "No, it is not what I believe. It is what you do. You make me do stuff I never wanted to do at all. Just can't stand to see you unhappy or angry at me. You have really high standards and I'm only human."
TGal - "I'm hearing that you see me as a demanding woman who holds you to her high expectations and doesn't accept you do not want and desire the same things."

See the territory you go into...not arguing that his words are wrong, but putting them into your own context. You still do not involve these words: but, no, wrong, right, mean, disrespectful, etc. No judgment. You're there to hear correctly. We all have filters, triggers, buttons...that's within our own domain to know. This builds your nonreactive muscle, where you jump in and defend...which isn't respectful or helpful. You begin to hear the distance between you...that this is what he feels and believes and that you have your own. Not the truth, his and hers.

I end a lot of my repeat statements with, "Good to know." This is a segue for when my H says simple stuff, "I hate brocolli" with a response instead of silence. Silence doesn't tell you that you were heard. "Good to know."

Brush up in your head...you know what your H says..I don't. See his opinion and respond to it. Before, you respond as a fact, not an opinion.

Behind you, TGal. I'm happy about your lunch, too. And all of your growth, ponderings and effort you're putting out on your own behalf. Being here makes a difference, doesn't it?

((((())))))

LA

I'm switching to ice tea now, too. I was raised by texans. I know the beverage. Heehee.

"Always valued honesty, as long as didn't try to hurt others..seems one have been least honest with is myself !"

You are not alone...same thing with me. Oh, what a realization. No judgment, just was what you did. Just was what I did...til I knew better.

You go, Gal!!!!

LA

Woke up with these on my mind felt needed to post them,not sure why, just my intuition /gut feeling...

Realized that if I am truly honest w/ myself that I am

• A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal

• Do not deal w/ rejection well

• Need acceptance, validation from others

• Change myself into what need to be to please at time

Know that insecurity most likely comes from not having sense of safety, security as child, due to dad’s drinking – mostly on weekends. Not paying bills, stuff being repro’d, cut off, , no food, etc.
Remember at about 7-8 took matters into my own hands, by taking money out of Dad wallet when went to sleep/passed out, & gave to my mother to pay bills, buy groceries, etc. when she wouldn’t/couldn’t/didn’t do it
Also when learned needed to change in order to please./ get by. Dad was strict, but not always consistent
Don’t remember Dad ever saying I wasn’t good enough, etc., just got that impression.
When drinking did at times become verbally abusive. His mother was one that verbally abused me most – she was very family oriented, I was oldest gc, but was girl so wouldn’t carry on family name, thus wasn’t worth much.
Realized later in life
that I did not respect my mother which said to me I was bad as God says to “honor thy mother & father”
that both did best they knew how & that wouldn’t be person was if didn’t have childhood had.
That Dad taught me how about real world things – how drive, fix car, etc.
Dad also gave me my love of reading, encouraged my curiosity, inquisitiveness
Mother more about people, love of music, dancing, etc.

Remember her always saying ..”what will / would people / they think about…..” & “how would you feel if you were them” my response was always that I didn’t care what other thought..& in my younger days really didn’t care, at least regarding some things.

• No idea what makes me or how to be happy other than being w/ H

• No idea what my boundaries should be, much less how to enforce them

• Not sure what my beliefs, truths are

Sure these “insights” will help me at some point, not clear at moment however.

Who is author of these..
The Purpose Driven Life
The Seven Principles of Marriage;
The Dance of Anger?

Thanks!

Wow, TGal...

Look what I missed.

And then you go and stump me in your next post. ::::

Okay, I give up...who are those authors?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that Gottman is Seven Principles of How Marriage Works...but I've forgotten the others. I'm sorry! What would I have won?

Now, back to the awesome post...the one where you woke up, looked inside, shared it and began yourself truly new again on Sunday. Good day for it, don't you think?

"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"

You've had to work your butt off to not appear shy, very reserved and fearful, haven't you? You had to create someone else...closely resembling you in many ways, but better, different...to cover all that up. Because of the shoulds you told yourself, and from others...

Alcohol is funny...it is like being raised by two Dads...and that variance alone will give a child that need for stable security...every child wants to know what's gonna happen...with alcohol, we want to know not to be delighted, but be prepared...see the difference?

"Then what happens?" in stories, in living, childlike wonder and excitement...gets replaced with, "please no, not again, just this once's"...see the difference? Doesn't make you shy, reserved...but fearful...and if you feel more protected, less vulnerable by being invisible, less noticed the better, then your fear manifests you.

You took from Dad and provided to Mom. This most likely is where you got that work ethic I was probing you about earlier...where it becomes imbalanced, imperative, no alternatives or choices...having to do what you gotta do kinda gal. No matter what...you wanted, needed or was prepared for. Funny thing is, no matter how much you prepared for life, each moment, you were repeatedly surprised at how much surprise you kept feeling...

Lemme me know if I'm walking off away from you, here...my journey was very similar, only with its own twists. You said "his mother" so you had a grandma living with you? I did. Might be where I got that.

As for now, you're awake to a lot of this, feeling it...in your mind, hug that little girl and kiss her, because she was whole, complete, not a thing wrong with her, wonderfully made for a purpose...and she still is. All that we accommodated in ourselves, denied, ignored or judged bad about us...wasn't true. That was outside human influence because they couldn't see what a wondrous work of God they were...or others. You're right...they didn't know and they were as caught between the shoulds and shouldn'ts, without knowing about...

The I am.

I got the impression of not being good enough because I wasn't enough for my Dad and Mom not to drink for...to not split their personalities, pass out around the house, or wake me up in the middle of the night to put to bed. I wasn't enough...or they would have stopped.

Same thing on being two girls with no one to carry on the name...felt inadequate. Gee, and my Dad didn't appreciate me having two boys out of wedlock with his last name...go figger. (Yeah, showing you my own choices in life had a lot of variables, but one of them I used was what you mentioned.)

We learned if our beliefs and thoughts were different from our parents, then we weren't honoring them...and we all know where that will get you! Yes, yes, TGal...I'm still wrestling with that today. Very insightful of you; gutsy admissions all around.

And that no, what others' thought was their own, and yours was yours, and that has surfaced and dived, surfaced and dived in your life, hasn't it? Have to be accepted, not rejected, to be validated and exist...so others need to be what reflect you, but then you're subjected to what they choose to reflect...needing but hating yourself that you need and trying to not need instead of change the belief...

because we didn't know, did we?

We knew all the should nots and shoulds and none of the know hows or know whys...least I didn't...so confused...doing the best I could with what made sense...and growing up in chaos (reality being very different than what I wished it was)...well, nothing much did make sense.

Now we can make sense...God brought us to this point in our lives, maybe several times attempting to make our way clear, but we couldn't see it...we now see that we need clarity to see, our falseness from what is real, in his creation that we remade...develop that code of our very own...finding out what we believe, both in the child in us and the adult (and all those us's in between), and choosing our beliefs, making our standards and boundaries, and then living from them...in the greatest relief, brightest honesty and openness, which we can't help but admire in us, appreciate, consider ourselves, and cherish ourselves...

created as we were, by God, marvelously...

and be accepted by our selves truly for the first time, giving God reason for rejoicing in our freedom to choose.

We choose us. We choose him.

We are no longer fearful, unaccepted, evaluated, judged, rejected, unworthy, valueless...because we aren't, and we refuse to treat others that way or OURSELVES.

Gotta run...gonna be thinking of your post all day.

LA

!!!Warning – Long post! –lst Part
!!!!Proceed w/ extreme caution! Venting, Ranting, Exasperation,Frustration, etc. ahead!!!!!

I feel like such a mess ! All the unknowns are really driving me nuts- need some answers!!
Really hate in action causing; not being able to physically do some of things need to do before can get started de-junking/de-cluttering, etc. so don’t do or get much of anything done..
Earlier in week ask son to help me today, said he would, but he just left w/ his GF & his daughter to go somewhere! GRRRRRR!!!

Have hard time accepting myself – that I’m worthy, lovable, matter - I look in mirror & see a fat , wrinkled, old, person, rejected I hate getting old , not able to do things want/need to do!

Okay..calming down some…here is what have so far…more to follow….

Still trying to absorb, understand a lot of what you’ve told me…been thinking, pondering it a lot…all your post seem to cause that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Took day off Monday,2/27 , for closing on refinance, then lunch w/ H. All went well, if I LB's, was, I hope, minor. Do believe, from several things said yesterday & when he called this am, to let me know has guy coming on on 11th to give us evaluation/cost estimate of a/c & heat unit.... that de-junking/de-cluttering house, is extremely important to him for some reason, since he keeps mentioning it in various ways, have decided that I will devote as much of my time & energy as possible in the weeks to come as way of meeting what appears one of his ENs. ( In days shortly after D-Day, I finished a plan I'd started to get this done, where took a room or two, depending on size, amount of de-junking/de-cluttering to be done, each month. In effort to get quick visible results will get obvious stuff out first, saving stuff like drawers, etc. for later on when majority of stuff is out. Also prayed that I was willing to do / give up anything to get H back) Promise, I'm not doing this with any expectations, just a tiny bit hope & a prayer for strength, energy, motivation, strength, etc. to get it done !) Really will be nice to have neat house again & make easier to clean & keep clean...I am really excited about getting started, something to keep me busy, work toward that will give me satisfaction & sense of accomplishment when finally done ( been at it off & on for about 3-4 yrs now)
Down side will be that in order to get it done, wouldn't have as much time to read/post here as have tendency, especially on weekends to get on & read for hours.
Hope H stays excited / interested beyond getting major stuff immediate stuff done, but gut/instinct tells me otherwise..…has been complaining a lot lately about his mother’s habits driving him crazy

"I have chai tea and crangrape next to me...a blanket over my lap...thanks for the warning. I LOVE that you posted a long one."

• I bought some Chai & some Green tea, but haven’t tried it yet..read that helped when on diet – I’m trying, but not having too much luck, enough will power, etc. being ole’ fat Texas gal figured need all help can get !! Goes w/ the big hair! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

“...why does feeling sorry for yourself comfort you?

• Have to think about this one some more, as all of yours sound ‘right one’ for me as well ......first thing that came to mind was I deserved / was entitled to it, been mistreated, lied to… have long way to go to break old habits !

"Attention? How am I feeling? What am I thinking? Where's my focus? All that says I am and I matter. No judgment...just information. "Will this choice make me feel better or worse? Add to my respect or diminish it? More attention and now, consideration. No judgment. And each question I ask shows I appreciate myself, that I matter. For every time I ask, "How are you doing?" to others, I better be asking that of myself."

• You make it sound easy, but I’m really not getting it ..by my asking myself these questions & determining answer will give me the attention, consideration, appreciation, etc. for myself been trying to get from others instead of building resentments for them not ….without judgements of myself or them ???

"Have a problem with that no judgment thing? Well, you don't allow yourself to judge others (good/bad). You do allow yourself to judge their actions mean/kind/loving/hateful). See the difference? You make mistakes but you aren't one. Same for them. You don't total up your judgments of their actions and then judge them good/bad. They are as wonderfully made, with their own purpose, and loved by God exactly as you are."

• “Judge the sin not the sinner”!

"•Seems I have tendency to have/get idea / expectation of how things will/ should/ want to happen, then get upset/angry/resentful when don’t"
"Seems...your truth or are you unsure? Is it what you really do inside your pretty head or are you guessing?"

• Yep, that is really what I do inside my pretty head…best illustration can use like have a script & go over all the possible things could happen, really knowing I have no control on others, yet feel secure / happy, then am disappointed if doesn’t happen & a lot of times turned out better than thought would. I am scared to be happy, every time am something always happens to jerk rug out from under me…that’s reason I’m pessimist, if expect worst, then I’m always surprised & happy when good things happen !!

"I allow myself to expect a certain result and then allow myself to become angry or resentful when the results aren't what I wanted them to be." Very human. No bad in that. Only thing, you allowing, choosing to do this, seems to hurt you. Why do that? Where's the pay off? Not just feeling sorry...how about security? "

• After thinking about this - not so much that I get angry or resentful as I am really disappointed & depressed

"I used to believe that if everything went as I planned/expected/worked for...then everyone would be happy and I would be safe from ridicule, being wrong or thrown away. Can you get from your statement to your feelings? If things do go your way, then you feel what? Accepted? Good? Worthy? Safe?"

• I felt that then I knew what to expect, safe, secure

"•Feel should not have to ask & if have to, then not sincere….. example if have to remind someone of b’day, then if get gift doesn’t have same meaning, more like duty, obligation ( does that make sense?)"

• To my way of thinking was more like whatever I had to remind of, then it was not given "freely , from their heart / "giver"

"•Don’t like to have to remind repeatedly to do what to me is “common sense” things"


Common sense is a judgment. What is logical to you is not to others. It is a misnomer. Not your fault. You're walking through your living room and your son has left his guitar right in the middle of it. You have to walk around it. Common sense would say, anyone would have to walk around it. Real life says...your son may walk through the living room and pick it up, play it, and put it down in the same place. He didn't have to walk around it...he wasn't going into the kitchen. See the diff? Common sense is full of assumptions, mindreading and is a disrespectful way to live. We are raised to believe the opposite. It bond us into a common purpose when we were all created unqiue with a seperate purpose.

Really gotta’ work on this one “common sense is a judgement” as you’re right was raised to believe should have common sense – at least enough to come in outa’ the rain."

• Do understand that what is logical to me is not or the same to/for others. Logical may be a better way of how I see common sense, along w/ being pro-active, consideration responsible??? If see trash can needs to be emptied, take it out before overflows instead of just ignoring.

"•Don’t like when told will do something, but don’t follow thru, so doesn’t get done"

Ahh, I'm still working on this myself. Trace this resentment back...far back. Broken promises, where others failed your expectations as a child...all those feelings you had...going to the park then not; learning you can't bank on what loved ones promise...holding tightly to do what you promised, even if you hated doing it, and then resenting them for you following through. Hating yourself when you made a threat and then didn't follow through on it, or did, because you saw it as a promise, an unreasonable promise after it was made. Lots of your reaction to them not fulfilling a promise is yours."

• Yes, it goes way back to early childhood..parents, especially my Day was always saying we do something / promise something, but rarely followed thru with them. Keeping my word has always been important to me ..won't promise if I have any doubt I will not be able to keep it.!

• Some of them where not things I tried to force / make/ manipulate him to do, most were things he thought about doing / simply said he would do, just never bothered to follow thru on….. being that he is a procrastinator

"•Figured out / realized that at some point I quit fighting / trying, just gave up, kinda shut down out of frustration as only upset me so in order to avoid that"

You chose to shutdown, not state your thoughts and feelings, quit wanting what you wanted because you weren't getting it, and disconnect to protect yourself. Very common reaction to failed expectations. Instead of examining your expectations, you focused on the results and what feelings those gave you, then fixed that. Funny, but you're almost there in that route, but for a wholly different reason. Your emotions give you information from your beliefs...you believe that killing your want will stop your expectations, which will stop the resulting feelings from failed expectations. Nope. Your emotions will hand you resentment, anger, frustration anyway. Why? Because you are lying to yourself. You still believe others have to fill you. As long as you believe that, you will get those resulting emotions.

• Not sure get this – please explain more.
  Is it that if I don’t have expectations of others, won’t be frustrated, disappointed, angry, etc when fail to meet those expectations??? Wishfulness of how like / want it to be ???
  Somewhere my spirit, spitfireness,spunk,fight was lost

"•Feel entitled to certain things – working on this one still"

• Gee & it felt so good to be entitled! Sure I'm not? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Others, including my H might disagree but to me being problem-solver means that I offer several suggestions /options/ideas on ways could be solved. However, sure at times have gone overboard."
My belief is that fixing/problem solving is disrespectful. This is an extreme belief because I was an extreme fixer. I did not see my disrespect of others. That every time I offered a solution, worked towards one or told someone how to do something when they had not asked me for that information, then I was telling them they were not capable, not human, that I had no faith in them and they were stupid. Ouch. Surely I wasn't like that?
Yup. Thoroughly and ignorantly. My H would share a problem and I would hear that he wanted to not have it. First DJ. I would also hear he couldn't solve it otherwise he would be telling me the solution. Second DJ. I would then supply him with a solution to stop his pain. Third DJ. I trampled on his autonomy and instead of giving him support and acceptance, I tore him down. Fixers destroy others. Pleasers destroy themselves and others.

• Way you explain it understand how is disrespectful being "fixer"/"problem-solver" is& boy, did/am I guilty of being way overboard on it big time. Still working of the "pleaser" tho'..

"Listening and repeating"

• Need to do this with what H said about restoring house to be sure I understand clearly what he meant

"Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.
90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution"

• Totally believe these !!

"By the way...I am not telling you to eliminate your controlling, judgmental, self-betraying parts of yourself. I'm asking you to acknowledge all of you...the cruel as well as the loving; manipulative as well as optimistic. I want you to know all that you have in you and why you have those traits. Then for you to accept them as you and why you don't need to act cruelly, manipulatively, controlling or any of them. Find out what they give you, what feelings and beliefs you have...then you'll understand. You are wonderfully made, acceptable to God. And to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />"

• I thought I had done this years ago, but see hadn’t, so will try to figure out for another post..should be enlighting!!

"Your own self-judgment is toxic to you...."

• Yep, I know I judge & expect more of me than I do of anyone..hard to stop lifelong habits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"My job is to show you...you can. You're fully capable. Nothing defective about you, TGal. There's joyous living down your dirt road, Ma'am"

• Boy,do you have your job cut out for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"I try to just be me most of time – not say/do what THINK other think I should/will say/do" Here I have to challenge you."

• Operative word here is “try”..I do do this more often that I like to admit as not something I am pleased / proud I do

"I see next that you posted two really long, wordy, verbose paragraphs I wrote and I couldn't find your comments in them. Did you just want me to see how long I take to get to my point? :::: I know this. I do. I'll try harder"

• Nope, wasn’t to show you that at all..simple “oops!” on my part

"Didn’t think I was being disrespectful either – just considerate & compassionate !!"
What do you think now?"

• I see now how I was in fact being disrespectful! Working on stopping all my DJs!

"Respect..
"•Respect is the objective, unbiased consideration and regard for the rights, values, beliefs and property of all people"

• This is fairly close for me

"Don’t think son intends to move out anytime, at least not in near future – has bird nest on the ground!"
Ahhh, but where is your choice in his intentions? His has his own and you have yours. What are yours?"

• See only 2 choices for me - let him stay, figure out way for us to co-exist or figure way to live w/myself if ask him to leave knowing he has no means of support, place to live, etc.& losing him forever. Working on this, but failing for now! If truthful w/ myself - if had guarantee was keeping H away he'd be gone!

"Wow...now I see where you give me your resentment summary. Oh, boy...whole 'nuther post there. In fact, I'll wait until you read my answering post before this one to get to that"

• Eagerly awaiting your insights & comments on what I see as resentment - sure will prove interesting & thought provoking!

".....not arguing that his words are wrong, but putting them into your own context. You still do not involve these words: but, no, wrong, right, mean, disrespectful, etc. No judgment. You're there to hear correctly. We all have filters, triggers, buttons...that's within our own domain to know. This builds your nonreactive muscle, where you jump in and defend...which isn't respectful or helpful. You begin to hear the distance between you...that this is what he feels and believes and that you have your own. Not the truth, his and hers."

• Listening & repeating...think this for now is the most helpful advise. Not sure what to make/how to fit in the last part -"Not the truth, his and hers." Wouldn't that be the truth, just truth for each of us?

From 1/28/06 Post:
Okay, I give up...who are those authors?

• The Purpose Driven Life Rick Warren
  The Seven Principles of Marriage; - John Gottman, Ph.D
  The Dance of Anger?- Harriet Lerner

"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"

• Forgot to add selfish in some ways, but not like is meant most time when referring to only children
  had to grow up to fast

"You've had to work your butt off to not appear shy, very reserved and fearful, haven't you? You had to create someone else...closely resembling you in many ways, but better, different...to cover all that up. Because of the shoulds you told yourself, and from others..."

• You nailed it --you're crystal ball finally came in!.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> did/do alright most of time until run into someone that intimidates me for whatever reason(s), makes me defensive, feel vulerable, etc....so thru years put up/built alot of walls to protect myself from the disappoint, hurt, pain, rejection..didn't/don't trust alot of people, very few get "in" past walls...one of reasons my H leaving has caused me so much pain, anguish, etc. - he was only one I ever felt I was able to simply be "me" with, without judgement, loved unconditionally, etc. felt safe, secure etc...H was my world for 40+ years!!!!
  Alot of the "shoulds/should nots" where drilled into me by my parents, how was suppose to/not act,behave, react, etc.

"You said "his mother" so you had a grandma living with you? I did. Might be where I got that."

• No, thank goodness she didn't live with us..Remember when I was 8-10, my dad saying one time that he could only stand to be with his mother for few days at most & thinking how sad. Wasn't until I was much older I understood all he meant by that statement as well as alot more of the things he said

Hope you're still awake..my mini bio didn't put ya' to sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Will take me awhile to incorporate alot of what I'm learning about myself into change..Some of this thought I'd dealt with years ago..guess really just push it away, but it in box,covered it up or something instead... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Truth hard to deal with..
Since doesn't appear will get much of de-junking/de-cluttering done like I wanted & hoped to do..will work on my list of what I think was my H ENs I failed to met, my LBs, DJs, etc. for tomorrow post.
Forgot to thank you for your continued help & support, & putting up with me! God will bless you!

Thanks for the warning!! LOL...I don't put one at the beginning of my posts...you see my screen name then it HAS to be long.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What a lovely treat, your post.

Your humor is terrific. I had a smile all the way through and two full chuckles. Thank you!

(See humor as admiration? I admired your humor...sincere and unasked for...so it will mean something to ya...but think about humor as admiration and how much in your life you worked to make others laugh and therefore like you. Do you tickle yourself?)

I'm no declutter expert, but I have an idea...what if you reversed what you were trying to do? What if you moved what you wanted to keep into your barest room, and then had all your kids and H come over and haul out the rest from all the rooms (sight unseen by you...you'll be at the spa) and have a garage sale. Whatever doesn't sell gets donated.

Like an amputation. The key would be that you get out only what you KNOW you've used in the last year. That's it. Anything else is gone. All sentimental stuff has to be boxed and stored or distributed to children in their own boxes.

Since you've been at this for 3-4 years, I figured a new way, a major surgery, would be painful but not too painful. Now, three weeks after all this, you will miss something and need it. Accept it. Go without. LOL

And please set in your mind you're doing this for you...only you. You are taking control back from your house; you will be supremely satisfied and feel a lot of self worth and respect when it is accomplished. Things are things...people are people; one is stuff and the other priceless. You are priceless. Things aren't money...we convince ourselves to hold onto (yes, I do) things because to replace them costs us. They don't cost us our love, gratitude or acceptance...they cost us our self image, image to others and what DJ others to think of us. Worth getting rid of all of that.

You will be giving yourself gifts--freedom, promise kept, lightness of being, a clean slate. Those are worth things you will miss one every two or three years...you'll miss them for a moment and then not.

Fear of loss...I've had that my whole life. You know what I lost in our move from AR to CO? 25 years worth of my writings...kids' journals...short stories...poems. Irreplaceable. I thought I wouldn't get over that. I have. It's taken five years, but I'm there. So what? I was lucky to have written them, ever. Anything like that in the rooms you're trying to declutter? Something that valuable you can't bear to part with?

God has been trying to teach me about handling loss for many years. In AR, we were broken into seven times. Talk about loss, repeatedly. I didn't get it. Until it was my own fault. I've reached for those stories so many times...they are a part of me, and maybe someday, I'll redo them. Don't know. Won't be the same way. Maybe better. Learn the lesson, TGal...it is there for a reason.

If it is facing the guilt for all that you've spent on this stuff...embrace that guilt. Guilt is not living up to other people's expectations...shame is not living up to your own. Memorize that. Find out what expectation you have that someone else gave you...what voice is in your mind when you look over all the square dancing paraphenalia...and what that voice is saying. If it is not your own, let it go. We hold comments from others about other events that no longer apply. We put that voice in our head and can bless it and ignore it. Follow your own judgment, with an eye to being new...new for a new marriage, self-image, solid self-respect and totally accepting love of yourself. Be ready and it will happen.

All the above was me coaching myself on doing the same darn thing in two months. ::::

See? You're not alone!

As for H not following through...I'm tying that to having to remind about your bday...

When what they do or not do is not your problem...when you do not expect them to do half, their share, pull their weight...then anything they do becomes a gift, doesn't it? Not asked for...sincere and acceptable. Accept others, TGal. That's the road I took to accept myself.

Same with bdays...make it the day to celebrate God's creating you (though he did long before that day); make it about being happy, shining and alive. Others may or may not give you gifts that day, but they will notice you as the gift you are.

If you're not there yet to do this, plan your own bday dinner party and invite family and friends three weeks in advance. That's not reminding...that's inviting.

Whatever you choose...love yourself anyway. Making resentments isn't showing love to yourself, is it? That's like drinking drano and waiting for the other person to die.

"Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.
90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution"

Totally believe these !!"

Then apply these beliefs to your H, your children, coworkers...commit having intimacy in your code...what you do, regardless of how others react. Another way to love yourself and build your self-respect.

"Do understand that what is logical to me is not or the same to/for others. Logical may be a better way of how I see common sense, along w/ being pro-active, consideration responsible??? If see trash can needs to be emptied, take it out before overflows instead of just ignoring."

Take logical out of the picture for a minute--what you choose to believe, put that in its place. If you believe that others should see the trash and take it out, where is that beliefing harming you?

Your clutter, accumulation...whenever you are not pro-active, considerate or responsible (and these may be extremes in yourself and encompass things that require no proactivity, consideration or what you're NOT responsible for)...then you will kick the livin' daylights out of yourself...feel down and depressed and not know why. You will feel worthless, not good enough...and wonder why.

Because you will have the same information handed to you (emotions) when you disappoint yourself as when others disappoint you. What a way to live, huh? So much work in judging, punishing, promising not to be bad anymore...let it go, please.

Get your code written down...and be specific as to its limitations. You have a great need to control to feel safe...from what? From your own emotions? If son doesn't do what he said he would, you feel _____. You are doing it to yourself, TGal. You are worth more. Same thing for when you don't do something (you keep promises to others but NOT YOURSELF)...you're human. You are allowed to let the trash overflow if you need to prioritize something else instead...because taking out that trash can lead to four other things on the way out and in...and then there is no time for that one thing you were going to do in the clutter room, is there? Allow that there are no rules to follow--you decide. No one is inspecting your trash in the middle of the night and writing reports. I promise.

If it is your mother in your head that won't let you sleep until X,Y & Z are done...then kick your mother out of your head...bless her and send her on her way...this is your life, your choices...be well pleased with them, 'k?

And your father's voice, too. Your pessimism comes from one of your parents...would you choose it if I told you that optimistic people live longer, fully lives? Have less physical ailments and disease? Would you choose to be safe or happy? What if happy feels really unsafe?

Optimists define their results...they find the donkey under the pile of manure. Pessimists walk by, pointing at the crap and judging the optimist. They walk into doors and get splinters that way. Pessimists rely on others to prove them right by being wrong...and things to go bad so that they can secretly be happy when they don't. Pessimists cannot be intimate.

Lemme know what you choose.

You're a loving woman, TGal...gotta call you on this:
"Yep, I know I judge & expect more of me than I do of anyone..hard to stop lifelong habits."

When we overheard adults say this, "Oh, he's harder on himself than I could ever be!" this sounded like a good thing, something safe, wouldn't accidentally do damage to others if we were too busy being mindfully punishing ourselves, right? Guess what...this belief gives you license to injure and stab others, innocents, as long as you beat yourself into a coma. Not a really great belief to have, huh? Now, if you attempt, which pleaser/fixers do, to not injure and stab others and still allow yourself to beat yourself into a coma...you can't. Not possible. Standards (inner beliefs) demand balance. What you do to yourself, you do to others. What you do to others, you do to yourself. God's protection in his creations...and his lament.

My belief...being hard on yourself...judging, punishing, evaluating, criticizing...means that you will be that to others. Choose. Not. To.

Good example of this...you hate that your H would "try to do stuff" but not do it. To try is to lie. Remember that. It's a truth. Now, read what you wrote here:

"Operative word here is “try”..I do do this more often that I like to admit as not something I am pleased / proud I do"

See what "double standards" now mean? What you wouldn't allow for your H via your expectations, you allowed for yourself...to try is to lie. Choose which way you're gonna go on this and know that you do or you don't...no trying.

Hard concept...think of it this way, "I tried and failed." Nope, you did and failed, right? Big difference in how we hear ourselves. You did something and it didn't meet your expectations; no trying involved.

Prefacing this with...I think you've got a lot within you that takes priority, rather than your son's living arrangements, but I brought it up from your end, your growth and ownership of what you want in your life. Your answer isn't about his reality, but yours:

"knowing he has no means of support, place to live, etc.& losing him forever. Working on this, but failing for now! If truthful w/ myself - if had guarantee was keeping H away he'd be gone!" You have been in the way, harming your son for a long time. He has means of support...himself. He can find a place to live because he has friends and network, but he's afraid to use it because he's learned from you he's incapable. You cannot lose him forever...all of these are your beliefs but not truth. You don't know. You can do a lot to your kids and be loved anyway. God set it up that way. I've been disowned three times...and had to leave home at 17 because my folks wanted time to themselves without kids, and we weren't allowed to move home again. I love them anyway. I've wanted to stop many times, but God doesn't really make it work that way. You believe you'll lose him forever, when you only live in the right now. Envision him hugging you, crying, three years from now, telling you he finally believes he is lovable, complete, capable and acceptable and you showed him how to be himself. You respected and honored him. Different idea, huh?

And just to let you know where I'm coming from on the no means of support or a place to live...the first time I was disowned was because I was pregnant out of wedlock..choose them or the child. I chose the child. I was homeless and had no job, ended up at a Motherhouse and built my life new again...then homeless for two years while waiting for housing...all survived. What you may judge for homelessness is your belief...but my experience was very different. Made a ton of mistakes and I was 21 years old. Your son can flourish. He is loved by God, also.

And no, you're not alone in this dilemma...my 16-year-old is in the same boat, in a way. He feels incapable because every time we have done for him, it told him he was helpless, useless and incapable. Learning that now. No idea how he'll change that belief. But I have faith he will, and flourish.

Now, leave all that aside as you ponder what you are exampling to your son and what you can do for yourself.

"Listening and repeating"

Need to do this with what H said about restoring house to be sure I understand clearly what he meant"

Double bonus....you learn to really hear by repeating, and HE feels heard. When we feel heard, we feel accepted. Unless we aren't trying to be heard, but trying to get a certain reaction. Note that about yourself when you feel not listened to, 'k?

"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"

Forgot to add selfish in some ways, but not like is meant most time when referring to only children
had to grow up to fast " Okay, my turn...I'm not understanding this.

Big hug, (((((TGal)))).."how was suppose to/not act,behave, react, etc." You did the best with what you believed then and now, as you change those beliefs, you will do better. I'm only asking you to stop believing you have to be any different than God created you...to believe you can't earn love; you are loved. To know that you're acceptable and don't have to "do" things to be that way; to understand your behavior, your choice of action, will be from your code, and not react to others from your feelings...no one makes you defensive...you feel that way. Might be a huge hairy guy with a club who walks up to you, and your expectations give you all those yucky feelings...before he says, "Hello, Miss. I'm looking for the library. Could you direct me, please?"

See the power of what you choose to believe? Huge! Immense!

If you chose to believe that all people were created by God, are whole, complete and wonderfully made...how shy would you be? If you chose to believe that others' choice of actions were not based on you--not the cause, control or cure for them--would you be reserved? Or would you be fascinated? Free?

See, forcing yourself to act like you aren't shy is remaking what God made...not really respectful, huh? But changing your beliefs about the world...there is honoring God!!! He said "Love your enemies" and your neighbor as much as yourself. You've skirted that commandment because you weren't loving yourself too well...how much love is in fear? Release your fear by changing your beliefs...you believe if you hold back you won't be hurt...but time and time again, you've been hurt.

Believe you will be hurt at times. Believe you control your expectations and prefer to accept than expect. How much hurt is in that? None!!!

That your H was the one person you felt just you with is lovely. And a burden. My H felt the same way. A blessing and curse in one, huh? You give all your intimacy to H because he's who you're safe with...you don't even feel safe with yourself...doubles the burden and the gift. Also creates the expectation that he will feel the same, believe the same with you, and to the same degree. Whoa. Triples the burden/shame/failing your expectation. He's not you. He's him. Respect will aid in your reunion. Seperating that, feeling more comfortable with others will change this and be freeing to everyone, 'k?

You can do this. You're already doing this with me. Yippee! That was a sincere, spontaneous outburst, if you coudn't tell.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You've mentioned more than once that a lot of this you got years ago and then lost. God will bring these things to you over and over again until you get it. He's a great enabler, isn't he? Is that lightning? Naw...he's all patient and persistent. Part of his tough love and respect program. Up to you to really get it this time through. Have those great lights going off inside of you that say, "Yes! Yes!" and usually, they are longed for. Like a homecoming.

Truth hard to deal with--and you're doing it. You can do hard, easy, uncomfortable and downright soul-ripping. You've proven that. Know it all the way through you.

Pain is necessary...part of being God's creation...Suffering is optional...our choice.

Pain is growth...suffering is silly and stymies us.

Blessed by God and your presence, TGal...

LA

P.S. Guess I taught you what "long posts" really are, eh?
Thank you for being in my life.

!!! WARNING !! 2 EXTREMELY LOOONNNGGG POST AHEAD !
Get your tea, extra comfy chair & settle in
(Yep, had excellent teacher on how to do long post !! )

Been a really emotional, unsettling roller coaster for me this week. Done my best to heed your advise, but as will see it didn’t work all time, extremely down.
I really want / need to lose 40lbs ASAP..just can not seem to quit eating..still hungry after eating good meal, no will power / self –discipline / self-control, not to eat snacks, candy, ice cream, etc. or stay on any type diet! Totally disgusted with myself as never been this hard/difficult!!! GRRRRR!!

Despite all that’s gone on that have been somewhat productive –
worked on what I believe were H ENs I failed to meet, my LBs,

• started exposure letter
  started letter abut my feelings, ask what his plans, hopes, etc are for our relationship,marriage
  started list of my beliefs, values, principles, standards,truths or whatever want to call them.
  working on what my expectations of myself, others is
  working on some boundaries for myself.
  Gratitude journal

Also, picked up all my papers, etc out of dining room, put them in containers in my craft room to sort thru later; put a lot of my writings, my post your responses on disks. Also, cleaned off kitchen bar that had major flat surface disease, as well as minor clean up in den! Felt really good!
H even complimented me on what & how much I was able to accomplish in short period of time from 5am to 9am yesterday.

Nearly every morning since D-day, I have prayed asking God to give strength, focus, will power, motivation, discernment, wisdom, peace, when I speak/email H that it is He give me the right words, to help me understand our situation, lesson He wants me to learn, etc… Also ask that if there is no hope for us, that He remove it from my thoughts & give me the strength to move on with my life without H.

2 Weeks ago last Sunday woke up a lot of things on my mind I posted on MB Forum site.
Last Saturday met my daughter & granddaughter for dinner, then we walked around Home Depot looking at stuff for restoring house, light fixtures, doors, etc as we all 3 love the store!
When got home about 9p, watched TV, then out of blue had strong feeling to read all the emails gotten from H that I’d saved, so did. Made me angry & very sad at times. Then went to bed.
Then again this past Sunday got up I’ve with same sorta “leading/ need” to get a lot of certain things out of my system, that by action will bring peace, answers, acceptance , etc. figure if feel this strongly then should not ignore or question whether from God..just do it !! However, did not heed my inner voice, instinct, except "urging" that I read back over old emails, review conversations, etc. in attempt to figure out the ENs of my H wasn't meeting,& my DJs, LBs, etc.not only in working on 6 Steps posted earlier.

Woke up from dead sleep Tuesday night, with a really uneasy feeling something is about to happen...in fact haven't been able to shake it all week. At times I’m hopeful


Realized few things ...H has not replied / responded to any of my last 2 emails ( see excerpts from them below) to him. He's been calling alot about refin, house, paying bills & so, took me to dinner Monday...did hem haw around when asked how to access our cell phone accounts..so must have something to hide.maybe has her phone on his account. ???

Excerpts from last 2 emails:
"= Did he think we could make a commitment to each other to be totally & completely honest with each other,. ( answer on this one would be appreciated - ;o)
= ask for clarifaction of what he wrote in eValentine Day card he sent me"

Want to share some of email been reading over to figure out H ENs I failed to meet, etc... to see if you agree with what I got ( you may want to copy them as I plan to delete them later)

This one’s from 10/7/03 –

H-I am really proud of you for staying on your diet. Please don’t stop. You are doing great and it will change your life trust me. To see you trimmer again is going to be so great. You used to always have great discipline. Don’t give up.
Love ya,
H
Me-Thanks for the encouragement about my diet! But as to me “always have great discipline”, think you have me confused with one of your other girlfriends! I’ve never thought of myself as having discipline or I’d have been better at a number of things.

H-Don’t sell yourself short!! It may have wavered somewhat in the last few years but it may have to do with motivating factor. You use to diet when I thought you were perfect. You took great care of yourself. You have been to put it bluntly, lazy or complacent, when it comes to caring about yourself. Maybe not the right words but I’m trying to find the right adjective to communicate what I’m trying to say. I care about you and I want you to feel great about yourself. I know you like it when look nice, to your standards. I know you have always lacked self confidence and I am greatly to blame for that. I am sorry for that. I couldn’t have done a better job of finding a wife like you though I tease you, sometimes too harshly. You have never given up on me. Keep up the great work and thank you for taking care of our home while I go and dance and leave you there alone to do all the work.

I think dancing really helps “Papa’s delicate condition” as for all the great exercise. It kicks my a$$ the next morning though.
Tale to you later
H


From 5/20/04

Me-Glad you enjoyed your class last night. Wish I was at place could take it with you..
Feel alittle left out not being able to dance on same level with you & at times its hard to watch someone else in place I should be. Love ya’
H-Don’t worry about it. When you are able to get back dancing 100% I will angel with you if that’s what it takes to get you fully confident with plus dancing. A or advanced dancing is really detailed and that to will come to you as well. Right now plus or hard plus would greatly challenge your intellect but it is so routine for me and the A stuff make me really think. I don’t want to get so bored with dancing that I back off and eventually lose interest. Hang in there we will be back on top dancing together again ,soon. First thing is for you to get well or to where you can tolerate your condition. Then we will go over all the plus moves, or the ones you are not too confident with and go to a plus dance. I do love SDing a lot and I hope that I never tire of it. But I have to have challenges and style to function at level I want to dance at. I have to have a goal for myself to be the best I can be so I keep driving myself to know more and more. No different with softball, golf, pool, bowling or whatever I try. Maybe the right word is competitive. We’ll get there I am sure so don’t despair.
Have a nice day,
ly

6/11/04 – had emailed him about joining health club:

You know what I think about any type of working out. I think it would be just fabulous if you had some type of motivation to workout and do something positive for your health I would jump for joy. I will support you beyond belief if you are serious abut it. All it could do for you is help you live longer and raise your quality of life. You go girl


The following are various emails we had back & forth right after he & his dance partner went out of state ( see my original post for more details):

From 6/23/04 email ( just week or so after got back from week in Fun Valley w/ dance partner)
Lost my email to him that this is in reply to

I said no not her because I was just with her silly. When would I have time to have this hot affair. I can barely keep up with what I have going on. What in the world have I done after 37 years of marriage to make you think all of this. I am completely under great scrutiny when we go out of town dancing and am on my best behavior for all of those who would like nothing better than to see something not righteous. I dance 4 to 5 times a week. Just think when in the he$$ do I have time for another woman. They all have problems, much worse than any I have and I don’t want anymore
I died last year you seem to forget and don’t know how much longer I have left. I seem back to normal in everyone’s eyes and it makes it look like nothing ever happened. I have not taken a sick day since I have been back to work and something told me to go to CO and just getaway. I know it was out of the ordinary and I can’t explain it. I couldn’t go much cheaper than I did. If we both had of gone we would have paid dearly for it and the stress of all the bills, the new baby coming, A not working, etc. would have it’s effect, trust me. I wished many times you were there with me and leaving you at the door was really hard for me too. I came close to backing out driving down road, but I know you won’t believe that either. I hope to live long enough to retire together. Maybe if you had been the one lying there thinking about dying and leaving all your love ones behind you might understand where I am coming from. I try to dance a lot but most dances are getting a little to simple. That’s why I am truing the advanced thing and joining the plus club and possibly the round dance thing you hate and going out of town to the plus dances. I have a goal to try and be the best dancer I can. It is boring walking around a walking trail when dancing gives me the same benefit. I am extremely competitive as you know and I look at dancing that way.
W is just a dancing partner. She flirts with every person she sees. She is a good friend and thinks the world of you. If I tell her about what you are saying she would quit dancing I’m sure because it would devastate her if you ever thought ill about her.
I was suppose to be so with S according to you. YUUUUUKKKK!!!!!!! What a joke.
I think you need to get back to normal. You are stuck with me after this many years
If I were so unhappy at home I would get the he$$ out of there.
We have a special relationship, some might think it a bit unorthodox, but it is ours. So many different people told me what a lucky man I was to have a special wife like I do (that lets me go dancing here and out of town) You have a lot of respect from a lot of people, trust me. Sh$t I know it.
I will quit square dancing all together and take up another hobby. I left it once 37 years ago and I can do it again!!!
We started out 43 years ago and grew up together and we are still her together. That ought to speak for itself.
Sh$t maybe it will be all over for me soon and you can worry about something that is real.
I love you now just as I always have.


7/12/04 11;54A email to me:
Just a little interjection here, we started out together more than 38 years ago and I feel we are more solid now than we were then. Stop all the analyzing of events, all is well with me. Sorry for the episode yesterday but all of the accusing, not true is just rediculous. We dont drink wine every time I see John and the drink it all and go fuc-.. In fact that was the first time he gave me any since Austin. That is so totally off base it isn't funny. If I were looking at someone to pal up with for the affair you think I am having it would not be someone I dance with all the time that everyone knows. People keep a ****** of a watchful eye on us when we are out of town dancing or for that matter even here in town. I wouldn't give anybody anything to talk behind our backs about that is true. W and I are friends, dancing partners. A man or woman can have a freind of the opposite sex without having to have an affair with them. I talk with her sometimes on the phone talking about up coming dances, talking about the club and things you and I would like to change etc. ****** she is one of the few in the club that is involved with trying to help make us a better club, one of the damn few. When I call her it is not to set up a rendezvous but to set up when and where to meet of what we are wearing etc. or usually talk someting square dance related.

She has a lot to do with visitors coming to our club. It isn't just because people like me because I'm sure some don't. Dancing at all the other clubs makes me feel like an ambassador for our club. I like dancing but it takes it's toll on me with all the lost sleep. We are doing a great job I think with the president thing or that's what some have told me. I couldn't do it without you or would I want to even try it without you.

Take a chill pill you have me forever if you want.

I am way too old for change.

Cheer up and enjoy what we have,

love you forever and always,


My 7/13/04 9:30AM reply:

I didn't have time yesterday to reply to your note.
Here is few things that have come to mind over the past few months
that may help you understand where I'm coming from...my point of view:


Most of time I'm fine...guess this started since I've been down with my neck problems.
I don't like to be sick & in pain, don't like to have to ask for help, & especially don't like
that there are things I can't do.

All my life, dancing has always been the one thing I knew I did better than most;
something that always made me happy & something I looked forward to doing,
where for alittle while I could forget problems, troubles, worries, etc.;
Something I could be proud of & was fun!

I was so happy & excited when you decided to start square dancing again!
At last something we could do together, not only for fun & enjoyment, but exercise too.
And we'd get to travel, too!
Was doing okay until you had your heart attack.
Then you began using square dancing for your exercise so needed t
o do it more often than I could do working full time, unless I took nap.
You didn't want to have to come all the way back home to get me however.
( Of course now you come back all this way to get W!) So you'd go alone.
W had just graduated from classes, was a good dancer, so you took her under your wing to tutor
& help get better.
I knew you needed exercise to stay healthy so couldn't very well complain too much
about you going so often.
Didn't bother me too much when you went & danced w/ alot of different partners,
but then you started dancing most of time with W,
& people began thinking the two of you were a couple, & then you started taking her out of town with you...that's when it began to really bother & upset me.


I've had to listen to you brag about how fast a learner & good she was...how excited you were !
You are always complimenting her & telling others how great a dancer she is,
what great couple ya'll make, etc
All I ever heard you say about me, (& not always just to me but to everyone),
- is how bad a house keeper I am,
- how bad I snore
just to name a two of your favorites!

I'd watch you dancing with her & you always have a smile on your face,
picking & teasing with her, & seem to really be enjoying yourself.
But you rarely smile, pick & tease, or seem to be enjoying yourself when you are dancing w/ me.!
However I even managed to deal w/ that most of the time.

When I got sick I was almost to the point in my dancing where I felt I was doing good & had most of moves down fairly good and was looking forward to learning more & getting even better with you.
Then I got sick & couldn't dance at all for several months.

At dances you seem more attentive & considerate of her. Between being just plain tired after work,
my back or feet hurting & then my neck problems I wasn't able to keep up.
It really hurt when I wasn't able to go out of town with you, that you wanted to go anyway without me
& take W. - before Fun Valley in the Fall & several weekends this Spring -- even took her to a softball game.
Not only goes she dance better , she even likes softball !

Then comes June - I was all set , excited & looking forward about going to State in Mesquite..when you emailed me you wanted to go to Fun Valley & W was going as your partner.
since I didn't think I could get off. Even after I got the time off you said I couldn't go as it would cost us too much & you'd be too worried/stressed out about the bills, etc. ( Never mind that it was the last of my 401K money in the back.. don't think it would have hurt for us
to spend $500 or so of it on me !)
Fun Valley was something we'd talked about doing since last year & were suppose to be saving ( money from Coke machine) so we could go together - our first week's vacation doing something we both enjoy. It never occurred to me that you'd actually want to go without me, much less actually go & then want take someone in my place. All this will take me quite a while to get over that hurt!

Now added to the rest you're taking round dance lessons together- something up until Fun Valley you disliked as much as me. Something had to have happened in Fun Valley to change your mind so suddenly. What was it?
You recently ask ..what was difference in Line / Round dancing? Round dancing is more like ballroom/country-western dancing..you need a partner & is more intimate
but don't need partner to do line dancing.

After you said something to me about round dancing being good, less impact exercise, I go to thinking
maybe you had a point & that I should give it try. But when I said something to you about that & I was
thinking about taking lessons, you looked funny, wasn't encouraging at all.

Said you'd support me in exercise, diet, & dancing to improve...but
- always seem unhappy when you dance w/ me compared to when you dance w/ W
- made me feel like 3rd wheel last week at Frontier Squares dance in Clear Lake
- But don't offer much encouragement when I want to go dancing more or mentioned that thought it would be good exercise for me to do Round Dance Lessons.

When you had your heart attack & died last year, my world turned upside down! I was faced with morality --yours & mine.
My world was turned upside down...what little security I felt was gone!
You are & always have been my entire world... I want to spend as much time enjoying & sharing things together with you ! Don't like to share you.

I'm deeply hurt & resentful that as your partner everyone knows her, gets the attention, etc. in my rightful place!
Being together & talking on the phone so much you're sharing experiences & things I am left out of & I am not / can't be a part of ..that I don't share!
Seems to me that I'm getting the leftover of your time, attention & consideration!

When I told you almost a year ago I didn't mind if W was your dance partner, I truly didn't mind.
However, had I known she would become your almost constant companion, spending more time with her than you do with me, I not sure I would have never agreed.
As usual, you have taken it to the extreme.
As to your talking to her on the phone about when you will meet , & what you'll wear for dance, I can understand.
Although don't really think it's necessary that you match.
As to discussing the coming dances, talking about the club and things you and I would like to change etc.,
think you need to talk over with me first.
( Still wonder exactly when you discussed going to Fun Valley with her...had to be before you emailed me..which
I don't think was right, since you knew I wasn't going to get to go !)

It is & has been, hard enough to take that she's a better square dancer , but that together with all the rest is just more than I am able to handle at times.
Bear with me..will take some time for the hurts to heal

Love ya!

H Reponses 7/13/04 11:16 AM:
Thanks for your email.

Let me tell you a little now of where I am with square dancing or dancing in general.

First of all dancing so much normally gets a person burned out. But in lieu of quitting I found a way to keep dancing, with all the twirling and swapping over to dance the ladies part and generally putting someting extra into it out of the norm to keep my interest in the program.

I'm sorry you are offended by the compliments that W and I get. That is natural to most people when they see the style that is not too often displayed when dancing. Should I be ashamed or embarassed by that?. We danced at an awfully lot of [censored] dances last year to practice and get better and got into it with a lot of work to do so. I could see that I was never going to get there by just dancing at the Wildcatters. The club is weak and has no desire to get any better and that's a fact. Do you think I would have put so much into it if say someone like Gwen or Gerri or someone else that couldn't move well. ****** if I don't enjoy it I'll quit. Like I told you before if you want me too I'll quit and sit on my [censored] until I find something else to do in the place of what I love to do. I will dance with you on Thursday night and the weekend when you can go and just fade away from dancing. Say the word!!.

I will dance with you first and foremost but when I don't dance with you W is my next choice and that is just the way I feel. You don't like it because it's not you. Well I'm sorry for that. Most everyone else dances the old people way and I am just not ready to be linked to that way of dancing just yet. Do a 1000 alamande lefts, square thru 4's and weave the ring a week, it gets real boring weaving and the ladies bowing and weaving and not touching hands, (Like you have ****** on your hands), don't even think about trying to do a twirl Half don't even want to swing when they get back to the home position. Boy is that a blast!!. If I have to dance like that for the rest of my life I WILL just quit it altogether. We can either look forward to our up coming trips to W Falls and Baton Rouge or blow it off.

I am glad that we are communicating maybe it will help.

I can tell you one thing for sure if I tell W how you feel about her she would just die since she thinks that she has your approval. ****** she would have never started dancing with me if she didn't think it was ok and I assured her it was.

I have to go for now so I can deliver your time sheet to Oaks.

Love you, just as always,

My response on 7/14/06 7:30AM to H 7/13/04 11:16AM email:
Morning!

Read my reply with a open mind & don't get upset !
I'm just trying to get you to understand how I feel & why.

You didn't have to tell me where you stand with square dancing or dancing in general,
I already knew..you've told me several times.
But I still don't think you understand where I'm coming from...my point of view, even after you read my previous email.

My standards for my dancing are , no one should progress to the next level until they have completely mastered the level they are at...meaning I didn't want to progress to Plus level until I felt comfortable doing all the Basic/Mainstream moves without having to think about them & was able to do them as either the male or female.

When we took over last August as Club Treasurer, you were free to dance, while I was the one that had to sit out, learn what had to be done with the job & do it, which meant that I didn't get the practice I needed. Now as President it is some better, but still don't feel I can dance as much as I'd like & do job.

To me it's like I'm being penalized for being slower at learning & not being able to go practice.
You can never make me think you would have the patience teaching /practicing with me you have had/shown with W
over the last year or so...you just don't seem to have the same interest in me getting to that point.

Some of the stuff you do, like "diddle in the middle", & the other to kill time when others are squaring thru;
Maybe even some of the twirls, etc...I can do,if you'd take the time to really show me & practice..
but you haven't even seemed interested in doing that, even before my neck problems.

You are right...I don't like it because it's not me you're dancing with, but most of all because I'm not
the one you want to dance with.....& I bet if positions were reversed, you'd feel the same way I do.

As I say in my reply yesterday, I was so happy & excited when you decided to start square dancing again! After all the years of being left at home while you played softball ..at last this was something we could do together, not only for fun & enjoyment, but exercise, too. Plus we'd get to travel as well. Once again I was wrong!
Had I known a year what was going to happen, I would have never agreed she could be your dance partner!
As usual, you have become obsessed & taken it to the extreme!

But I feel about things quite differently than you....I wouldn't want to do things without you...that's why for years I went with you to softball games, etc. ...hoping that you'd compromise by doing something that I enjoyed, but it rarely ever happened.
That's the area where you are & always been very selfish & inconsiderate....if it's something you enjoy, then you are totally committed, & to ****** with anything or anyone else that might interfere !
Guess I just keep hoping it will happen someday. Marriage should be two people together doing & enjoying things together & sharing.

From reading your email, what I hear is that you are either going to continue dancing with W as you have been doing, or you'll just quit.. That all of this is to keep you interested in dancing.
You still had to get your little digs in...with complements like:
-"Do you think I would have put so much into it if say someone like Gwen or Gerri or someone else that couldn't move well" ( Guess that's why you didn't do it with me ?)
- Most everyone else dances the old people way and I am just not ready to be linked to that way of dancing just yet ( You said the same thing about Round dancing being for old people who couldn't dance, but look at you now..you are taking Round dancing ! ???? But of course, now you are interested in round dancing so it's ok!)

Just say.....at some point I was able to do what she does, would it make a difference?


You didn't comment on this: ( or were the 3 & 4 paragraphs of your email your comments?!?!)
Said you'd support me in exercise, diet, & dancing to improve...but
- But don't offer much encouragement when I want to go dancing more
or mentioned that thought it would be good exercise for me to do Round Dance Lessons.

No, I'm not stupid enough to tell you to quit nor do I want you to quit. It is good exercise for you (& for me.)
The one thing I do worry about is how losing sleep is going to affect your health over period of time.
If it comes to anyone quitting it will be me.

What is gonna happen when have done all this but still wind up getting burned out & want to quit dancing before I catch up with you?
Guess I'll just be out of luck ...& be stuck at home & you'll move on to some new interest.
Don't want to see that happen.

Yes, I'm looking forward to our up coming trips to Wichita Falls and Baton Rouge.

As I've already said it will take time for the hurts of the past month or so to heal..just bear with me.

Square dancing is suppose to be fun & enjoyable..Not a Contest !

Maybe there is a way for us to comprise on some of this.

Love ya'


PS --
ALL OF THIS OR ANY OTHER LETTERS, NOTES, EMAILS, PHONE, OR OTHER CONVERSATIONS. ARE OUR PERSONAL MATTERS & AS SUCH, ARE NOT TO BE DISCUSSED WITH ANYONE !



H 7/14/04 9:40AM Reply to My 7:30AM Email:

Good morning to you.

I will try and answer some of the questions or concerns you made this am.

First and all what I said about the Gewn and Geri thing was meant that I would not have gone dancing as much as I did last year if it was only for straight up dancing. It had nothing to do with you. I went 4 days a week some weeks without you and I meant that I would not have gone as much. Damn you read too much into every thing I say.

I have heard you say many times about getting dizzy twirling, so I just dance the normal with you. You still don't have the confidence that you think you need and spinning you around and getting you disorientated probably wont help. You can dance a whole lot better than you give yourself credit for being able to do.

As far as "would it make a difference if I could dance like W", what is that supposed to mean. I would be able to dance differently the way I dance with you , yes. I told you yesterday and I will not never tell you this again. You are my wife and I will "dance with you first, anytime you want to dance. But when I don't dance with you W is my next choice. We are dance partners and have danced many times to get where we are and we dance well together. What ever you want to try and do tell me. Watch us dance and see what it is you want me to teach you. ****** all you have to do is ask me and I will show you anything you want to learn.
It is no big mystery. I have told you a thousand times read the plus list. Tell me the ones that you do not have down pat and I will go over them with you. I have showed you many times right there in our own den, different moves. How many times have I showed you "chase right"?. I will show you every day til the day I die if I need to

You act like I have never attempted to try and get your level of dancing up. That is totally false. I don't what your stumbling block is about learning. Make a list and I will go over them with you every day if you want. I laugh and tease with you about some of the moves you have a continual problems with. Not ugly at all.

Maybe if you concentrated more on what you are doing (learning) instead of picking at what or where I am at, it will help you more.

I hope we will be able to dance for a long time to come as it is something we can both do and enjoy.

As for round dancing I am in the middle of lessons now. When they are done and you still want to learn that too I will go through them again with you. Marilyn slowed her class 2 weeks ago and caught us up the 4 weeks we missed being as we already had a lot of basic moves down we learned in Colorado. The Prowls are nice people but they teach a strict type of dancing and demanding style. I like doing my own style like Marilyn and Jarrel teach and do. They look to really have fun as many don't seem to.

I find it very interesting whit all the ****** talking about me round dancing and now you are interested?????.

I don't want every time I go dancing to be a fight and ****** slinging contest because it isn't worth it to me.

I will do anything to help you that you want to get you where you feel comfortable dancing.

I have and will continue to go dancing with or without you, with or without W etc.. I don't just go dancing if W goes. I have in the past gone many, many, times without her as I'm sure I will do in the future. She is 500 miles from here and it hasn't slowed me down a bit this week. I am going tonight to advance lessons, tomorrow night to my favorite club, Friday somewhere and Saturday to Cat Springs. It is all just about dancing. I hope you see that it is only that and very soon.


gotta go to work now,

love ya,


His exact words on D-day were “ I love you, but I’m not in love with you”, have felt this way since before my heart attack & dying twice in 1 day in April ‘’03 (about 2 -1/2 yrs), tired of “faking” it.
In email H sent me 2 days after D-day ( BTW –just the day after D-day, took his dance partner to eat at his mother’s house after dance lessons & meet his Aunt, Uncle & cousin! & but didn’t tell me found out days later when was talking to his mother about something else.; & she mentioned that W had brought them her homemade peanut brittle for Xmas gift

Here’s email he sent me on 12.20, just 2 days after Dday….
Hope you morning is going well. It is kinda slow so far today.
I don't want to upset you anymore than I already have but I am sincere in telling you, don't give up on us yet. Honey give me a little time to get my ****** together. You are a most wonderful person that I love with all my heart. I know it's a blow to you.
Please don't stop with your dieting. It is really starting to show. You are getting results and look very nice.

I have made so many mistakes with you. I have been so selfish and just plain ugly( although not intentional) with little remarks. Maybe it was my lack of self confidence or something but you didn't deserve it. I amso lucky you
didn't leave me for being harsh . I know that I have seemed thoughtless at times and I am truly so sorry for ever hurting you. My mind is so cloudy right now but I love you so much. You deserve to be on a pedestal. Just
don't give up on me. I better stop for now. See you this afternoon.

I Love you,

Then his reply to my response:

Honey. When I say dont worry about finances I mean just that. First of all that is not something you have to worry about EVER. I want you to be secure about that. Second of all like I said it's not over between us. Give me a
chance. Let's take one day at a time for now. There is no need to push or rush into anything while emotions are running so high. I've been able to talk to you more in the last few days than I have in the last year or so. I
want you to be sure and understand me, I will take care of you. That you can believe, do not give making it financially a second thought. I promise you
with all I am. I know you think your world has crumbled around you but something had to give.

About questions, I meant that I might not have answers to some of your questions you might have right now.

That is what I am searching for, something to build on going forward.

ly

Note left me tell me he was leaving month after D-day:
" My Darling,

I have to go way for a little while to figure out somethings. Please don't give up on me just yet, but if you do I guess I have it coming. It will be OK I promise. I am going to stay at a suite that has a weekly rental really cheap. I thought it would be best before just going to moms right off. Just for a week to be alone and do some soul searching. I know it may not be the most proper way to let you know but telling you in person would be just too emotional right now. You know the kind of heart I have so have a little faith in me. Please don't worry about the finances. I promise I will be there to take of you.

The letter you wrote me New Year's Eve is the most sincere straight from the heart words that have ever been given to me. I cling to them dearly.

Catholic men go on retreats yearly to mediate and pray. Probably a good thing.

I know this is most upsetting for you and I am more sorry than you will ever know. It's not the end. If something doesn't give I'm going to crack up.

In our early years we separated few time but something always brought us back together - Well, I need to find it again. 99% of our 38 years have been wonderful and I'd do it all over again.

I love you & always will

H - 05 0125 Email reply just few days after moved out to note I wrote him:

You have been a busy little beaver. You have a great style in writing. I know how much you have poured your heart into me and for the love of God that is all I am thinking about. For the greatest part of my life I have felt the exact same way. As long as we were together we could overcome anything. I felt everything about you that you do in me. One of the most contenting feelings I have ever had was to come home on a Saturday afternoon and you & R were in the process of finishing up cleaning our beautiful and loving home. It smelled great, no clutter and was proud if anyone happen to come over. I use to love to hand water each little blade of grass in the evenings. The waking up early in the am and we would make love & go back to sleep. Play hooky, make love & just chill for the day. I don’t want to start telling you some of the things that have upset me through the past years because they may sound trivial or infantile to you. I have not just sat down and listed them but I will if you think it might can help us . I have made comments about certain things to you in the past that upset me more than you will ever know but it was passed off like a joke “the circus has left town, but the clown is still here” I know you have given me the best years of your life and I have given you the best of mine., NO REGRETS. I hope and pray with all my heart that we can somehow work it out. If I didn’t still love you then it would be a shut case. But I do.

I can see your stance for keeping some kind of sanity and I respect that. I miss my family and my home more each passing day. You are in my thoughts continually through the day.
I’ll write more tomorrow. Be careful and take care of yourself,

My Requests were: as I understood at time from "Love Is Tough":
--Ask that you NOT tell me you “love me” if / until such time that you can honestly, truthfully, with your whole heart can tell me “you love me”, and mean it like a husband… like it is suppose to be between man & his wife…in way expected ..like marriage vows we took

-Since this it is your choice/decision to leave, I will respect it by leaving the choice/decision to
call/make contact to you..Will only call/contract you if emergency or urgent issues arises.
Will continue email, unless you tell me otherwise.

- Ask that should you need/want to come to house, that you check with / make arrangement with me in advance

--you not discuss me,/us with others.

<><><>>>>><>>>>
In past weeks, he seems to me that he has failed to respect some of requests
-- signed eVDay card with "I Love You", "Love you"
---several times has called on less than 30 minutes notice coming to house, usually w/ excuse seeing GD on a Monday or Thursday night when he dances nearby as it is convenient for him to have nice place to wait until time to pick up W to go to dance.
Really feel used !

<><>>>><><><><><><<><><

Having read MBs info on ENs, LBs along w/ your advise/ guidance/ insight & having reread our emails exchanges/conversations in past few years it is my belief that the following are my contribution to our marriage situation:
H's Emotional Needs failed to meet:
Domestic Support -

• didn't not realize until very recently how important was to him to have a clean, clutter free house was proud of when someone happen to come by; since I worked full time always felt was more important that I spend my time at home with family, instead of cleaning, etc. Also, felt since I worked full time, should be able to relax as H did when just sit watch TV, or go play softball, golf, etc.
  About 10 years ago got to feeling that I was only one in house that did anything or cared about upkeep of house, no one else did much, & I got tired & quit caring as well, only doing what I felt was necessary. Also about this time began having back problems & other health issues that prevented me from doing alot of things once did, so was doubly frustrated as don't like that not able to do things once did & want to do.
  I also bought "stuff" fabrics, patterns, craft items with good intentions, but also as replacement (?) for my feelings of frustration, resentment, not being loved, respected, etc.

Physical Attractiveness

• Took Dr's 14 yrs to figure out my "stomach" problems where caused from gall bladder & after having it removed about time when thru the "change" had a problem with my weight, for first time in my life - resented I couldn't eat same as H w/o gaining weight & that when we'd go on diet together he'd lose more quicker than me, felt was unfair that when could afford to eat out, food love, I gained weight. Hated/hate extra weight but didn't/don't seem to have the will power, to stay on diet, & when on diet only lose 1-2lbs/week which is way too slowly for me. Health issues prevent me from doing alot of exercise which know would help. Just hate getting old period! Why I was so excited & happy when H started back square dancing - not only seem fun way for us to get exercise, something we both enjoyed doing together, we'd get to travel, etc.
  Hurt great deal when he went to dances for his health/exercise when I wasn't able to go due to my health issues, had more patience, etc w/ W, his dance partner, than did me.

Sexual Fulfillment

• I'm not sure how many years been since H basically ran me out of our bed due to my snoring & his being a very light sleeper. Then few years before his heart attack began having trouble with ED, finally talked w/ his Dr about problem, took Viagra, which helped most of time, but would get really upset when didn't perform as he wanted, at times seemed to blame me . also was about this time is when he was working a part time job, so thought I was being kind, considerate of him by letting him sleep late on weekends & sparing his feelings when didn't go to him of morning. In truth of hindsight, was also my fear of rejection, ridicule, or whatever else call it. --was never because I didn't want/need him

Affection

• When we were younger, I was very affectionate toward him, & even continued after he told me he didn't like me to "hang" on him in public, we still picked / teased with each other at home, then seemed to just dwindle away. For my part some of it was fear of being rejected, pushed away, made to feel silly, etc.

Recreational Companionship

• H loves sports, very competitive, & if game played with a round ball, is above average player. I on other hand, never like sports as not good at them, like to dance, etc. more, not competitive, enjoy them for the fun / companionship, being with friends / family, etc. For years went to his softball games, just to be with / support him, & hoped would at some point compromise by taking me to some places / thing I like to do in various cities traveled to, but never did. After years went by got tired & bored with it, not getting anything out of it in return, and never getting to go to the really nice cities as we couldn't afford for me too. Did for few years attend NHRA National Drag Races, which is one sport I enjoy, but then tickets got to be too expensive, took 45 min to 1 hour to get out parking lot, etc., so H decided wasn't worth going any more.
  Again this is why I was so excited & happy when H started back square dancing - not only seem fun way for us to get exercise, something we both enjoyed doing together, we'd get to travel, etc.
  Hurt great deal when he went to dances for his health/exercise when I wasn't able to go due to my health issues, had more patience, etc w/ W, his dance partner, than did me.

Admiration

• He was/is my hero, just failed to express it often enough, thought he should know it after all these years. Always saw him as person I hoped to be.

Conversation

• Not sure if this is one of H ENs, but do know that he does like to talk..at least to most everyone else in past few years. Even said in one or more of his emails since Dday, that he'd been able to talk to me more than in last few years.
  So sure I did all of these in failing to meet this need (1) demands are made, (2) disrespect is shown, (3) one or both become angry, or (4) when it is used to dwell on mistakes of the past or present. Unless conversation is mutually enjoyable, a couple is better off not to talk to each other at all. An unpleasant conversation not only fails to meet the emotional need, but it also makes it less likely that there will be an opportunity to meet the need in the future. That's because we tend to prevent our spouse from meeting our needs if earlier attempts are painful to us
  We have just seem to run out of things to talk about.
  Just misunderstand each other, argue, get frustrated, resentful, etc.

My Love Buster's toward H: ( All of them, but especially these )

• Anger Outburst
  Disrespectful Judgments
  Annoying Habits
  Selfish Demands

Read the following, under General Discussions -Emotional Needs Forum on the "Fading FAITH Losing HOPE Drained of LOVE...the root cause of my struggle",thread http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...0&fpart=all
sort of sums up in some ways how I think/ feel. Why is H being taken away? Why must I have my greatest fear realized - getting old & being rejected & abandoned to live out remainder of my life alone & lonely? What did I do / not do, that was so bad to be punished so severely? Did the best I knew how with what I had & knew at time !
If I'm completely honest, really not sure I'll make it or even want to , if H chooses to leave for good.
No I'm too big coward to commit suicide, but with hope gone, nothing to look forward to, won't be much of life
About only thing I know for sure, unless something happens to change my mind at some point, I will never be one to file for divorce, that will be his choice/decision, like this whole situation due to his choices/ decisions!

Really big question for me – Is there really real reason in hoping H will return?
If as he’s said he’d felt this way since before his heart attack in April '03 & we’ve been separated for alittle over year now & I didn’t find MB to know what to do until Dec’05..is there truthfully much reason to hope at this point he will ever come back? Have other WH returned after this long a time?

"I don't put one at the beginning of my posts...you see my screen name then it HAS to be long."

• True, but always so enlightening, challenging & so worth it!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"What a lovely treat, your post.
Your humor is terrific. I had a smile all the way through and two full chuckles. Thank you!
(See humor as admiration? I admired your humor...sincere and unasked for...so it will mean something to ya...but think about humor as admiration and how much in your life you worked to make others laugh and therefore like you. Do you tickle yourself?)"

• Love humor, good laugh. Actually am upbeat, cheerful most of time. Yes I enjoy making other laugh, but honestly don’t believe I did it for anything other than because enjoy seeing people happy, laughing enjoying themselves. Humor laughing helped me escape for alittle while. Besides as got older everyone has their own problems they want to escape and doesn’t want to be gloomly Gus all time …I’m really not depressed, down all or even most time. I do like people and enjoy just sitting, especially outside on pretty day watching people.

"I'm no declutter expert, but I have an idea...what if you reversed what you were trying to do? What if you moved what you wanted to keep into your barest room, and then had all your kids and H come over and haul out the rest from all the rooms (sight unseen by you...you'll be at the spa) and have a garage sale. Whatever doesn't sell gets donated.
Like an amputation. The key would be that you get out only what you KNOW you've used in the last year. That's it. Anything else is gone. All sentimental stuff has to be boxed and stored or distributed to children in their own boxes.
Since you've been at this for 3-4 years, I figured a new way, a major surgery, would be painful but not too painful. Now, three weeks after all this, you will miss something and need it. Accept it. Go without. LOL "

• Love your idea & will implement parts of it since there is really not room in house bare enough to stage all that want/needs to be tossed out / donated – 28+ yrs worth. H said wanted to clean out garage first so will have place to put stuff being tossed / donated.. he’s getting bids on having someone haul it away as well as for a construction dumpster. After get garage cleaned out, then H want to redeck the attic so can walk between the two openings & start clearing that out.
  I decided that if haven’t used it in last year out it goes, with exception of my sewing supplies, magazines, books. There is also few things from each of my parents want to keep

• By saying been at this for 3-4 years meant that have actually donated/given away/tossed a lot of craft stuff – fabrics, patterns, books, magazines, etc. at several times over last 3-4 years

"And please set in your mind you're doing this for you...only you. You are taking control back from your house; you will be supremely satisfied and feel a lot of self worth and respect when it is accomplished. Things are things...people are people; one is stuff and the other priceless. You are priceless. Things aren't money...we convince ourselves to hold onto (yes, I do) things because to replace them costs us. They don't cost us our love, gratitude or acceptance...they cost us our self image, image to others and what DJ others to think of us. Worth getting rid of all of that."
You will be giving yourself gifts--freedom, promise kept, lightness of being, a clean slate. Those are worth things you will miss one every two or three years...you'll miss them for a moment and then not.
Fear of loss...I've had that my whole life. You know what I lost in our move from AR to CO? 25 years worth of my writings...kids' journals...short stories...poems. Irreplaceable. I thought I wouldn't get over that. I have. It's taken five years, but I'm there. So what? I was lucky to have written them, ever. Anything like that in the rooms you're trying to declutter? Something that valuable you can't bear to part with?
God has been trying to teach me about handling loss for many years. In AR, we were broken into seven times. Talk about loss, repeatedly. I didn't get it. Until it was my own fault. I've reached for those stories so many times...they are a part of me, and maybe someday, I'll redo them. Don't know. Won't be the same way. Maybe better. Learn the lesson, TGal...it is there for a reason.

• Have to think about the fear of loss, but sounds right. I have made up my mind - I'm ready to get rid of all junk, clutter , for me, I'm tired of it as there is so much think it's one of reason I haven't had interest in doing sewing, crafts like I use to enjoy..too much stuff have to move out of the way.
  Even admit early on prayed that I was willing to lose everything, if God would return H to me.

"If it is facing the guilt for all that you've spent on this stuff...embrace that guilt. Guilt is not living up to other people's expectations...shame is not living up to your own. Memorize that. Find out what expectation you have that someone else gave you...what voice is in your mind when you look over all the square dancing paraphenalia...and what that voice is saying. If it is not your own, let it go. We hold comments from others about other events that no longer apply. We put that voice in our head and can bless it and ignore it. Follow your own judgment, with an eye to being new...new for a new marriage, self-image, solid self-respect and totally accepting love of yourself. Be ready and it will happen."

As for H not following through...I'm tying that to having to remind about your bday...

• Working on my expectations of others, will take time

When what they do or not do is not your problem...when you do not expect them to do half, their share, pull their weight...then anything they do becomes a gift, doesn't it? Not asked for...sincere and acceptable. Accept others, TGal. That's the road I took to accept myself.
All these years I thought I was / did accept others!
Same with bdays...make it the day to celebrate God's creating you (though he did long before that day); make it about being happy, shining and alive. Others may or may not give you gifts that day, but they will notice you as the gift you are.
If you're not there yet to do this, plan your own bday dinner party and invite family and friends three weeks in advance. That's not reminding...that's inviting.

• Like these ideas, will try to remember when my b'day gets closer !

Whatever you choose...love yourself anyway. Making resentments isn't showing love to yourself, is it? That's like drinking drano and waiting for the other person to die.

"Intimacy has no judgment, advice, definition of others...it is the act of sharing yourself and allowing others to share themselves with you.
90% of marital problems aren't not to be solved, but understood. The solution to them is sharing and hearing. That is the solution"
Totally believe these !!"
Then apply these beliefs to your H, your children, coworkers...commit having intimacy in your code...what you do, regardless of how others react. Another way to love yourself and build your self-respect.

• the act of sharing myself is hard for me.

"Do understand that what is logical to me is not or the same to/for others. Logical may be a better way of how I see common sense, along w/ being pro-active, consideration responsible??? If see trash can needs to be emptied, take it out before overflows instead of just ignoring."
Take logical out of the picture for a minute--what you choose to believe, put that in its place. If you believe that others should see the trash and take it out, where is that beliefing harming you?
Your clutter, accumulation...whenever you are not pro-active, considerate or responsible (and these may be extremes in yourself and encompass things that require no proactivity, consideration or what you're NOT responsible for)...then you will kick the livin' daylights out of yourself...feel down and depressed and not know why. You will feel worthless, not good enough...and wonder why.
Because you will have the same information handed to you (emotions) when you disappoint yourself as when others disappoint you. What a way to live, huh? So much work in judging, punishing, promising not to be bad anymore...let it go, please.

• Got to think about this more..not sure I completely understand what you're telling me

Get your code written down...and be specific as to its limitations. You have a great need to control to feel safe...from what? From your own emotions? If son doesn't do what he said he would, you feel _____. You are doing it to yourself, TGal. You are worth more. Same thing for when you don't do something (you keep promises to others but NOT YOURSELF)...you're human.

• Will work on getting my code, truths, beliefs written down

You are allowed to let the trash overflow if you need to prioritize something else instead...because taking out that trash can lead to four other things on the way out and in...and then there is no time for that one thing you were going to do in the clutter room, is there? Allow that there are no rules to follow--you decide. No one is inspecting your trash in the middle of the night and writing reports. I promise.

• Your cheating again - using your crystal ball <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> as I can not tell you how many times I've started doing something really simple like taking out trash, & got distracted with one or more other things !!!

"If it is your mother in your head that won't let you sleep until X,Y & Z are done...then kick your mother out of your head...bless her and send her on her way...this is your life, your choices...be well pleased with them, 'k?
Nope - can't lay blame for this on my mother, this is something I've done for as long as can remember & especially in later years - my self discipline - not allowing myself to do something fun, I enjoy, etc. until got homework, housework, etc.
And your father's voice, too. Your pessimism comes from one of your parents...would you choose it if I told you that optimistic people live longer, fully lives? Have less physical ailments and disease? Would you choose to be safe or happy? What if happy feels really unsafe?"

• Happy does feel unsafe most of time, as I can not seem to remember time that was really happy, that something did not happen to take happy / enjoyable away!

"Prefacing this with...I think you've got a lot within you that takes priority, rather than your son's living arrangements, but I brought it up from your end, your growth and ownership of what you want in your life. Your answer isn't about his reality, but yours:"

• Help me out here – “I think you’ve got a lot within you that takes priority’. What do you think my priorities are?

"knowing he has no means of support, place to live, etc.& losing him forever. Working on this, but failing for now! If truthful w/ myself - if had guarantee was keeping H away he'd be gone!" You have been in the way, harming your son for a long time. He has means of support...himself. He can find a place to live because he has friends and network, but he's afraid to use it because he's learned from you he's incapable. You cannot lose him forever...all of these are your beliefs but not truth. You don't know. You can do a lot to your kids and be loved anyway. God set it up that way. I've been disowned three times...and had to leave home at 17 because my folks wanted time to themselves without kids, and we weren't allowed to move home again. I love them anyway. I've wanted to stop many times, but God doesn't really make it work that way. You believe you'll lose him forever, when you only live in the right now. Envision him hugging you, crying, three years from now, telling you he finally believes he is lovable, complete, capable and acceptable and you showed him how to be himself. You respected and honored him. Different idea, huh?
And just to let you know where I'm coming from on the no means of support or a place to live...the first time I was disowned was because I was pregnant out of wedlock..choose them or the child. I chose the child. I was homeless and had no job, ended up at a Motherhouse and built my life new again...then homeless for two years while waiting for housing...all survived. What you may judge for homelessness is your belief...but my experience was very different. Made a ton of mistakes and I was 21 years old. Your son can flourish. He is loved by God, also.

• FYI – Had it been left to me I would have raised son just as did daughter . However in the 12 years between 2 kids, a lot of things changed..H grew up, realized mistakes he made w/ daughter, so did a complete turnaround from being strict to not strict enough, H would tell him had to mow lawn, take out trash, etc., but when he didn’t do whatever it was faced no unpleasant consequences for not doing them. Part of it was H didn’t think his son should have to help around house was “woman’s job”, since H didn’t growing up, his mother did it all as a SAHM, will his dad worked 2 jobs to support family. I tried for years, but would have had better luck beating my head on concrete than changing things. If I tried to get son to do something, punish him,etc., H rarely backed me up. Son has never had to accept/face responsibility for his actions, bad choices, etc. Dad has always been there to rescue him. I truly believe that all problems with son contributed to H stress level..just before H heart attack we had refin house, paid off few bills & was going to do a lot of improvements to house, but over next year or so most was spent on bail & lawyers for son instead as H couldn’t stand to think about son in jail ( longest stayed in was 2 weeks)

• I know son can / could do a lot for himself than his dad doesn’t think he can. Part of my problem with him now is I am not sure how /what to do when he crosses my boundaries.

• Son has admitted that he has lot of anger inside, but doesn’t know what/when caused it.
  Also, I have overheard him say that make more money selling drugs than working, so figure that’s what he’d choice to do for support.
  I did tell him last time was in jail, that if happened again would /could not bail him out.

Now, leave all that aside as you ponder what you are exampling to your son and what you can do for yourself.


"A shy, very reserved, extremely insecure gal"
Forgot to add selfish in some ways, but not like is meant most time when referring to only children ..just had to grow up to fast "
Okay, my turn...I'm not understanding this."

• Only children are thought of as spoiled, selfish brats always getting what they want, but never having to work/do anything for it. Which in some ways I was –my mother did most all housework, cooking, even when I ask her to show me how, she said I’d have to start doing it soon enough & for the rest of my life, so didn’t think should have to do it while was growing up only after I left home. My dad on other hand taught me a lot of practical useful things, saying that just because I was a female & blond should I have air between my ears. He made me learn all the parts of car, what each did, how change flat, grease car, change oil, how to shoot & clean gun, how to fish, how to find out information, where look for it, etc. to be independent, self sufficient
  Both taught me I had to accept responsibility for my actions & choices.

You've mentioned more than once that a lot of this you got years ago and then lost. God will bring these things to you over and over again until you get it. He's a great enabler, isn't he? Is that lightning? Naw...he's all patient and persistent. Part of his tough love and respect program. Up to you to really get it this time through. Have those great lights going off inside of you that say, "Yes! Yes!" and usually, they are longed for. Like a homecoming.

• In the 80’s I was very involved in church, bible study, etc. attended almost as my H said, every time the doors opened” I got a lot of criticism from H for going to church since wasn’t Catholic, it was a “cult” & from church members when I missed on Sunday to go on boat as family
  God is said to be loving, forgiving, etc. For years I have had trouble with couple of instances in B

Some of post was lost..here is the rest...

it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit , who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
Have asked about meaning of these many times, but never been explained so understand them &/or I feel all “warm & fussy”, loved, worthy, etc.


Truth hard to deal with--and you're doing it. You can do hard, easy, uncomfortable and downright soul-ripping. You've proven that. Know it all the way through you.

I know that I have a lot to be thankful & grateful for, just failed to see it a lot of time. I have, with God’s help & blessings, gone from being a waitress to assistant manager of 350 room old fashion type full service hotel at age 22, then from a mail clerk to executive secretary to VP in large company ..He has never shut a door, that a better one has not opened elsewhere! Just need to remember that as well as times He has had to carry me! Need to start a “grateful for “ journal.

Pain is necessary...part of being God's creation...Suffering is optional...our choice.

Pain is growth...suffering is silly and stymies us.

Blessed by God and your presence, TGal...

LA

P.S. Guess I taught you what "long posts" really are, eh?
Thank you for being in my life.

It is I that needs to thank you & God for bringing you into my life. Been such a blessing, even if causing me to face some hard truths about myself, my life.


From your 2/25/06 post..
“Wow...now I see where you give me your resentment summary. Oh, boy...whole 'nuther post there. In fact, I'll wait until you read my answering post before this one to get to that.”

Are ready to tackle my resentment summary along with the rest of my “stuff” ??

(((TGal))))

Congrats on the progress of cleaning up...you sound very happy about it. While I'm working on your resentments timeline (nonchrono, but okay), would you do me a favor and go through those emails you post and pick out all the DJs from H to you and from you to H?

LA

Your resentments toward H--I'm hearing with each bullet of your list that you created and held resentments for:

•Not appreciating & acknowledging that my working thru the years contributed

When you read this now, who carries the responsibility for appreciating and acknowledging your work?

•Seeing only my faults, mistakes, things not done, things not doing

Read this and think of his "teasing" and how you chose to believe it was a signal of love...his "woman's work" belief, also; and when you hear his opinion, were you taking it as THE truth instead of just his opinion?

•Comparing me to others , pointing out how they did things, what they did better

See the answer before this one...do you also compare yourself to others (you do to OW, I know)?

•Not appreciating & accepting me for me

Now here I will sound harsh...but do YOU accept and appreciate who you are? And if you concentrated on that, would you need H to do so much of it? Not trying to cure...you created resentment and held it against your H because he wasn't doing something you weren't doing.

•Not treating me w/ common courtesy, manners, i.e. opening doors, staying w/ me at functions, making sure had drink, etc.

To bring this one around to your power is a little bit difficult. I believe you said how you felt many times, but from what I've read, you got this feeling more intensely as your injury prohibited you from dancing and H ignored you at these events. Now...you respect him to know that your language of love is attention and consideration...courtesy, concern, presence (as acknowledgment), and acts of service (getting you a drink as needed). Now you guys stopped attending Drag races together for a similar reason--you weren't getting what you wanted out of them.

You say you wanted him to continue dancing for his heart (though he has many other ways to exercise as he said), and when you weren't receiving what you wanted from watching him dance and dancing a little, you could have POJA'd something new...including gym membership for you both. You didn't. I'm not blaming...but you are the one holding resentment over something you have no control over...namely, his conduct.

•Telling / joking in derogatory manner about private things, even after asking H not to do so

I don't see this as a resentment but a drain on your love bank...it is different. Only thing you might do in the future is to enforce your progressive boundary...tell what you feel when he does this...even in front of others..."Ouch!" and if he continues, "I can't stick around when you destroy my intimacy, H. See you later!"

One of my favs..."Humor at my private expense is pretty costly" wink and exit.

•I went to his softball games out of town & in, for years, even tho' truly did not like sports & yes LB'd often voiced that my dislike, but only after requesting number of times that would help if he'd be willing to at least compromise by taking me somewhere on the out of town trips that I enjoyed. Few times he did was very begrudgingly, acting agitated, grumpy, etc thus ruining it

Manipulating your spouse through sacrifice and SDs is your own to let go of. You were doing what you knew how then, though know you no better. You only control you. You do not say you'll attend to support him and then manipulate him. You decide not to make new resentments by not going to support or sacrificing. You made this resentment. You got in the way of his consequences to his actions. You will do yourself a great honor to let this resentment go especially...and you DJ'd him awfully by holding up high expectations for his behavior when you guys went out of town.

•Treating others with kindness, consideration

The way he treats others and not you says more about all the resentments he holds than about who you are. You are allowing yourself to create resentments and hold it against your H because of how he treats others. If you did not define yourself through him, this would be a joy, not a bane.

•Understanding other point of view,

You are holding resentment for something he might be incapable of--from your emails, you both DJ'd each other so much, I can't help but think this resentment goes deeply both ways. This happens when both of you are taking each other's opinions as facts and not opinions and struggling to change the other. Please let this go...needs one person to be accepting for the other to feel safe. You have to start this. Listen/repeat is the best way to begin. You are totally protected from his opinion when you leave it in his hands...not yours. His opinions are not your truth. You have your own. They are yours.

The THE truth, just your truth.

•Not helping around house, without having to be ask - that was woman's work

Tell me, if your H had this childhood concept of worman's work, why did you agree to go to work and not be a SAHM?

•Running me down, belittling, demeaning me/my abilities, etc. w/kids, especially son thru years

Big lovebank withdrawals...not sure about resentment. Raw pain here. Please think the truth here...no one could make your son think anything he didn't want to about you...kids know more than adults give them credit for. The effect of your H's nasty DJs would be that son thinks worse of him than you. This would have been a big boundary issue with me...let go the resentment portion you created because you didn't have this boundary and if you did, for being willing to enforce it.

•Not presenting united front w/ son

Did you bring home parenting study guides, get counseling/coaching? Your son would still be who he is...God's work is in this...had you had this...I figure you did with your daughter.

•Not making son do chores, help around house

Our kids volunteer to obey...we can't make them. When they figure out they have control over what they do, you aren't responsible for their choices. They must overcome and understand when they choose not to obey, that your choice is to not stand in way of the consequences. Now...I get that H did this a whole lot...but son is in your house, not living with H. Why not?

•Not allowing son to take responsibility, experience consequences & be accountable for his actions,

You took part in this, also. When you and H split, you got house and son...why not the other way around?

•Raising son w/ double standard & exactly opposite of how did daughter

Sweetie, your daughter got enough of the same stuff you did...the teasing (tears down), probably doesn't feel loved due to unequal treatment...lots of stuff. Please do not set her down unrealistically as the child you both raised right. Not happening, IMO. When you begin thinking in extremes (opposites), your inner chid is at work, thinking for you.

You have two children, both loved, but felt to you like raised by different parents. That's valid. That's how you feel...creating resentment for it is a whole other ballgame...you could mourn the loss of your desire for how you wished it to be, and let it go. It's over. Maybe you're angry and resenting yourself for not doing something to stop it, early on...something that would have MADE your H act differently?

•Not asking or seeming to care how my day went.
•Insinuating that my job wasn't hard, stressful, etc., since I all did was sit at desk all day
•Allowing trival things that he chose not to disclose in clear, direct manner something bothered him & let them fester into much bigger problem

He didn't meet your expectations. You didn't accept that he was selfish, full of anger, like you, and didn't learn how to express it in a healthy manner. This affected his O&H, intimacy, conversation, affection...all of them. You are resenting him for not being different than he is.

•Making choice to leave without giving any reason(s) - just " about him, not me", loved me wasn't in love w/me" just a "few little problems

I don't believe you resent him for this. You resented all the choices he made in regards to his work, his health, his parenting and his choices in all of those. I beleive you resent him for choosing differently than you wanted him to choose.

•All deceptions, lies, etc. - including when say/do something knew would give/lead to certain impression / conclusions

Are you angry at yourself for not be a truth-diviner? For not seeing through his deceptions, lies, etc? Because we are humans and totally deceivable...but that is always on the liar/deceiver, not you. No anger necessary...unless you're angry at yourself for believing the liar. Good news! You can forgive yourself and let this go...it is about them, not you.

•Violating my love & trust
About you, not him. Self-betrayal bites just as hard and fast as spousal betrayal. Seperate the two of them. You're leaving your power on the floor...you had choices. One is to not trust those who betray...a part of you kept trusting. You believed you loved him anyway...he can't violate your love...it is your belief.

•Stealing my hopes, dreams, stability, safety

He can't do this stuff, either. You have this in you, all yours. You believe he can do this, then he can. Please stop believing in his huge power over you because that means you're giving him yours. Take it back. Creating resentment for this is taking poison so that he will die. You're more powerful, whole and in control than that.

•False assurances, when ask if /what problem - that OW & he were/are "Just Friends"

He lied. No resentment needs to be created to sap you power. You chose (and I believe this) not to believe him. You didn't betray yourself believing this.

•Not even giving me / us chance to work on problems issues

You've had nearly three years of working on these problems...opportunity...you found MB...that's a joy. You aren't divorced. It isn't over. Why take this poison?

•Rejecting me without giving me chance or any reason

Really look at this one carefully...you weren't the problem, the issue or the reason. His choices are not about you. You did not cause him to berate, tease, bash or DJ you. He did that. Not you. No "chance" was necessary. It was about him, not you. Believe this...this belief you have that you have power over him has to stop...it is the main fuel igniting your resentments.

•Leaving after 40+ yrs to be alone, without any affection, love, security, just for p$$$y

Same as previous. I know you see this now.

•Not even wanting to disclose / discuss our "few little problems" after being separated over year

You are resenting another person's wants due to your own expectations.

•Leaving me in limbo

You did this. You choose to wait for his decision. He didn't do this, you did. Own your power of choice, TGal...it is God given to you. Let go this resentment...it is for yourself.

•Breaking promise & marriage vows

You are resenting him for being human, vulnerable and lost.

•Changing the rules without letting me know he had

Same as previous.

•Saying he had principles, values, standards when he has gone against all he ever said he believed in, taught kids was right,,

You are angry at him not being who you made him out to be...you believe his spirtual commitment was your protection...you did this...you believed he was as good as word, after he has proved he isn't...he talks what he wants to be but is not. That's pitiable, not something to resent.

•Taking away my being able to retire & live comfortably, enjoy traveling, dancing, etc

Now this...well...you can sell the house, split up the stuff, get all you can on the adultery, and most likely be able to retire, comfortably, travel a little and your own body for dancing? You are resenting a future that isn't here yet. Much like him taking away your dreams...they are yours, within your choices.

•Not doing upkeep / maintaining house - nothing preventative , only when broken / something wrong

This has to go to your expectations, doesn't it?

•Saying will / is going to do something, but not following thru with actually doing it

Passive-aggressive behavior existed throughout your marriage...needs professional help and awareness. This is something you choose to accept or combat, but not resent.

Resentment, Frustration, Anger At Myself
•admit. I think I resent myself, my stupidity and gullibility, my own trust, more than anything now

Let go this resentment for not knowing you chose to believe lies...for believing you had no choice.

•Thinking I was being grown up, mature adult by dealing with things he said/ did that didn't

We all share this one...when you're done kicking yourself, know that you did the best with what you knew then, and now, you can do so much better because you know so much more.

(Hug yourself here)

•like,..especially the trivial ones like leaving toilet seat up, squeezing toothpaste from the middle, by
accepting the things I cannot change; having courage to change the things I can;and wisdom to know the difference

You got your cure of resentment already. Serenity prayer.

•Although he is one made choice/decision not to disclose in clear, direct timely manner the issues/problem so that I knew their existence or importance, betrayed my love trust w/ lies, deceit, deception, false assurances, lying by omission, finding someone else..yet somehow I am to blame, it is my fault, should have know his complaints were actually his way of saying problem !!

If you take all the blame, it feels like power to you...all the blame and twice the credit (when it works out)...meanwhile, your real power of reality and your choices is buried, suffocating under the blame/credit. Stop it. You only have your part. All humans only have their part. Be respectful to others and yourself and know your part.

•Seem to put everything else - softball, work, dancing, etc. ahead of me - didn't feel I was "first" or a priority in his life

Now you put this under resentments against self...so you realize you did this, not him, right? You didn't make you a priority, but expected him to do that.


Lemme know what you think,

LA

Here ya' go..Admit I'm better at picking out his to me
than I am at mine to him!

Don't know how to do font colors so here's how
I did it...
Legend:
TH – my DJ to Husband
FH – H DJ to me

Want to share some of email been reading over to figure out H ENs I failed to meet, etc... to see if you agree with what I got ( you may want to copy them as I plan to delete them later)

This one?s from 10/7/03 ?

H-I am really proud of you for staying on your diet. Please don?t stop. FH-You are doing great and it will change your life trust me. To see you trimmer again is going to be so great. You used to always have great discipline. Don?t give up.
Love ya,
H
Me-Thanks for the encouragement about my diet! But as to me ?always have great discipline?, TH?- think you have me confused with one of your other girlfriends! I?ve never thought of myself as having discipline or I?d have been better at a number of things.

H-Don?t sell yourself short!! It may have wavered somewhat in the last few years but it may have to do with motivating factor. You use to diet when I thought you were perfect. You took great care of yourself. FH -You have been to put it bluntly, lazy or complacent, when it comes to caring about yourself. Maybe not the right words but I?m trying to find the right adjective to communicate what I?m trying to say. I care about you and I want you to feel great about yourself.FH- I know you like it when look nice, to your standards. I know you have always lacked self confidence and I am greatly to blame for that. I am sorry for that. I couldn?t have done a better job of finding a wife like you though I tease you, sometimes too harshly. You have never given up on me. Keep up the great work and thank you for taking care of our home while I go and dance and leave you there alone to do all the work.

I think dancing really helps ?Papa?s delicate condition? as for all the great exercise. It kicks my a$$ the next morning though.
Tale to you later
H


From 5/20/04

Me-Glad you enjoyed your class last night. Wish I was at place could take it with you..
Feel alittle left out not being able to dance on same level with you & at times its hard to watch someone else in place I should be. Love ya?
H-Don?t worry about it. When you are able to get back dancing 100% I will angel with you if that?s what it takes to get you fully confident with plus dancing. A or advanced dancing is really detailed and that to will come to you as well. FH-Right now plus or hard plus would greatly challenge your intellect but it is so routine for me and the A stuff make me really think. I don?t want to get so bored with dancing that I back off and eventually lose interest. Hang in there we will be back on top dancing together again ,soon. First thing is for you to get well or to where you can tolerate your condition. Then we will go over all the plus moves, or the ones you are not too confident with and go to a plus dance. I do love SDing a lot and I hope that I never tire of it. But I have to have challenges and style to function at level I want to dance at. I have to have a goal for myself to be the best I can be so I keep driving myself to know more and more. No different with softball, golf, pool, bowling or whatever I try. Maybe the right word is competitive. We?ll get there I am sure so don?t despair.
Have a nice day,
ly

6/11/04 ? had emailed him about joining health club:

You know what I think about any type of working out. I think it would be just fabulous if you had some type of motivation to workout and do something positive for your health I would jump for joy. I will support you beyond belief if you are serious abut it. All it could do for you is help you live longer and raise your quality of life. You go girl


The following are various emails we had back & forth right after he & his dance partner went out of state ( see my original post for more details):

From 6/23/04 email ( just week or so after got back from week in Fun Valley w/ dance partner)
Lost my email to him that this is in reply to

I said no not her because I was just with her silly. When would I have time to have this hot affair. I can barely keep up with what I have going on. What in the world have I done after 37 years of marriage to make you think all of this. I am completely under great scrutiny when we go out of town dancing and am on my best behavior for all of those who would like nothing better than to see something not righteous. I dance 4 to 5 times a week. Just think when in the he$$ do I have time for another woman. They all have problems, much worse than any I have and I don?t want anymore
I died last year you seem to forget and don?t know how much longer I have left. I seem back to normal in everyone?s eyes and it makes it look like nothing ever happened. I have not taken a sick day since I have been back to work and something told me to go to CO and just getaway. I know it was out of the ordinary and I can?t explain it. I couldn?t go much cheaper than I did. If we both had of gone we would have paid dearly for it and the stress of all the bills, the new baby coming, A not working, etc. would have it?s effect, trust me. I wished many times you were there with me and leaving you at the door was really hard for me too. I came close to backing out driving down road, but I know you won?t believe that either. I hope to live long enough to retire together. Maybe if you had been the one lying there thinking about dying and leaving all your love ones behind you might understand where I am coming from. I try to dance a lot but most dances are getting a little to simple. That?s why I am truing the advanced thing and joining the plus club and possibly the round dance thing you hate and going out of town to the plus dances. I have a goal to try and be the best dancer I can. It is boring walking around a walking trail when dancing gives me the same benefit. I am extremely competitive as you know and I look at dancing that way.
W is just a dancing partner. She flirts with every person she sees. She is a good friend and thinks the world of you. If I tell her about what you are saying she would quit dancing I?m sure because it would devastate her if you ever thought ill about her.
I was suppose to be so with S according to you. YUUUUUKKKK!!!!!!! What a joke.
FH-I think you need to get back to normal. You are stuck with me after this many years
If I were so unhappy at home I would get the he$$ out of there.
We have a special relationship, some might think it a bit unorthodox, but it is ours. So many different people told me what a lucky man I was to have a special wife like I do (that lets me go dancing here and out of town) You have a lot of respect from a lot of people, trust me. Sh$t I know it.
I will quit square dancing all together and take up another hobby. I left it once 37 years ago and I can do it again!!!
We started out 43 years ago and grew up together and we are still her together. That ought to speak for itself.
Sh$t maybe it will be all over for me soon and you can worry about something that is real.
I love you now just as I always have.


7/12/04 11;54A email to me:
Just a little interjection here, we started out together more than 38 years ago and I feel we are more solid now than we were then. FH-Stop all the analyzing of events, all is well with me. Sorry for the episode yesterday but all of the accusing, not true is just rediculous. TH-We dont drink wine every time I see John and the drink it all and go fuc-.. In fact that was the first time he gave me any since Austin. That is so totally off base it isn't funny. If I were looking at someone to pal up with for the affair you think I am having it would not be someone I dance with all the time that everyone knows. People keep a ****** of a watchful eye on us when we are out of town dancing or for that matter even here in town. I wouldn't give anybody anything to talk behind our backs about that is true. W and I are friends, dancing partners. A man or woman can have a freind of the opposite sex without having to have an affair with them. I talk with her sometimes on the phone talking about up coming dances, talking about the club and things you and I would like to change etc. ****** she is one of the few in the club that is involved with trying to help make us a better club, one of the damn few. When I call her it is not to set up a rendezvous but to set up when and where to meet of what we are wearing etc. or usually talk someting square dance related.

She has a lot to do with visitors coming to our club. It isn't just because people like me because I'm sure some don't. Dancing at all the other clubs makes me feel like an ambassador for our club. I like dancing but it takes it's toll on me with all the lost sleep. We are doing a great job I think with the president thing or that's what some have told me. I couldn't do it without you or would I want to even try it without you.

Take a chill pill you have me forever if you want.

I am way too old for change.

Cheer up and enjoy what we have,

love you forever and always,


My 7/13/04 9:30AM reply:

I didn't have time yesterday to reply to your note.
Here is few things that have come to mind over the past few months
that may help you understand where I'm coming from...my point of view:


Most of time I'm fine...guess this started since I've been down with my neck problems.
I don't like to be sick & in pain, don't like to have to ask for help, & especially don't like
that there are things I can't do.

All my life, dancing has always been the one thing I knew I did better than most;
something that always made me happy & something I looked forward to doing,
where for alittle while I could forget problems, troubles, worries, etc.;
Something I could be proud of & was fun!

I was so happy & excited when you decided to start square dancing again!
At last something we could do together, not only for fun & enjoyment, but exercise too.
And we'd get to travel, too!
Was doing okay until you had your heart attack.
Then you began using square dancing for your exercise so needed to do it more often than I could do working full time, unless I took nap.
TH-You didn't want to have to come all the way back home to get me however.
( Of course now you come back all this way to get W!) So you'd go alone.
W had just graduated from classes, was a good dancer, so you took her under your wing to tutor & help get better.
TH-I knew you needed exercise to stay healthy so couldn't very well complain too much
about you going so often.
Didn't bother me too much when you went & danced w/ alot of different partners,
but then you started dancing most of time with W, & people began thinking the two of you were a couple, & then you started taking her out of town with you...that's when it began to really bother & upset me.

TH-I've had to listen to you brag about how fast a learner & good she was...how excited you were !
You are always complimenting her & telling others how great a dancer she is,
what great couple ya'll make, etc
TH-All I ever heard you say about me, (& not always just to me but to everyone),
- is how bad a house keeper I am,
- how bad I snore
just to name a two of your favorites!

I'd watch you dancing with her & you always have a smile on your face,
picking & teasing with her, & seem to really be enjoying yourself.
TH- But you rarely smile, pick & tease, or seem to be enjoying yourself when you are dancing w/ me.!
However I even managed to deal w/ that most of the time.

When I got sick I was almost to the point in my dancing where I felt I was doing good & had most of moves down fairly good and was looking forward to learning more & getting even better with you.
Then I got sick & couldn't dance at all for several months.

At dances you seem more attentive & considerate of her. Between being just plain tired after work, my back or feet hurting & then my neck problems I wasn't able to keep up.
It really hurt when I wasn't able to go out of town with you, that you wanted to go anyway without me & take W. - before Fun Valley in the Fall & several weekends this Spring -- even took her to a softball game.
TH-Not only goes she dance better , she even likes softball !

Then comes June - I was all set , excited & looking forward about going to State in Mesquite..when you emailed me you wanted to go to Fun Valley & W was going as your partner. since I didn't think I could get off. Even after I got the time off you said I couldn't go as it would cost us too much & you'd be too worried/stressed out about the bills, etc. ( Never mind that it was the last of my 401K money in the back.. don't think it would have hurt for us
to spend $500 or so of it on me !)
Fun Valley was something we'd talked about doing since last year & were suppose to be saving ( money from Coke machine) so we could go together - our first week's vacation doing something we both enjoy. It never occurred to me that you'd actually want to go without me, much less actually go & then want take someone in my place. All this will take me quite a while to get over that hurt!

TH-Now added to the rest you're taking round dance lessons together- something up until Fun Valley you disliked as much as me. Something had to have happened in Fun Valley to change your mind so suddenly. What was it?
You recently ask ..what was difference in Line / Round dancing? Round dancing is more like ballroom/country-western dancing..you need a partner & is more intimate
but don't need partner to do line dancing.

TH- After you said something to me about round dancing being good, less impact exercise, I go to thinking maybe you had a point & that I should give it try. But when I said something to you about that & I was thinking about taking lessons, you looked funny, wasn't encouraging at all.

TH - Said you'd support me in exercise, diet, & dancing to improve...but
- always seem unhappy when you dance w/ me compared to when you dance w/ W
- made me feel like 3rd wheel last week at Frontier Squares dance in Clear Lake
- But don't offer much encouragement when I want to go dancing more or mentioned that thought it would be good exercise for me to do Round Dance Lessons.

When you had your heart attack & died last year, my world turned upside down! I was faced with morality --yours & mine.
My world was turned upside down...what little security I felt was gone!
You are & always have been my entire world... I want to spend as much time enjoying & sharing things together with you ! Don't like to share you.

I'm deeply hurt & resentful that as your partner everyone knows her, gets the attention, etc. in my rightful place!
Being together & talking on the phone so much you're sharing experiences & things I am left out of & I am not / can't be a part of ..that I don't share!
TH-Seems to me that I'm getting the leftover of your time, attention & consideration!

When I told you almost a year ago I didn't mind if W was your dance partner, I truly didn't mind.
However, had I known she would become your almost constant companion, spending more time with her than you do with me, I not sure I would have never agreed.
TH- As usual, you have taken it to the extreme.
As to your talking to her on the phone about when you will meet , & what you'll wear for dance, I can understand.
Although don't really think it's necessary that you match.
As to discussing the coming dances, talking about the club and things you and I would like to change etc.,think you need to talk over with me first.
( Still wonder exactly when you discussed going to Fun Valley with her...had to be before you emailed me..which I don't think was right, since you knew I wasn't going to get to go !)

It is & has been, hard enough to take that she's a better square dancer , but that together with all the rest is just more than I am able to handle at times.
Bear with me..will take some time for the hurts to heal

Love ya!

H Reponses 7/13/04 11:16 AM:
Thanks for your email.

Let me tell you a little now of where I am with square dancing or dancing in general.

First of all dancing so much normally gets a person burned out. But in lieu of quitting I found a way to keep dancing, with all the twirling and swapping over to dance the ladies part and generally putting someting extra into it out of the norm to keep my interest in the program.

I'm sorry you are offended by the compliments that W and I get. That is natural to most people when they see the style that is not too often displayed when dancing. Should I be ashamed or embarassed by that?. We danced at an awfully lot of [censored] dances last year to practice and get better and got into it with a lot of work to do so. I could see that I was never going to get there by just dancing at the Wildcatters. The club is weak and has no desire to get any better and that's a fact. Do you think I would have put so much into it if say someone like Gwen or Gerri or someone else that couldn't move well. ****** if I don't enjoy it I'll quit. FH-Like I told you before if you want me too I'll quit and sit on my [censored] until I find something else to do in the place of what I love to do. I will dance with you on Thursday night and the weekend when you can go and just fade away from dancing. Say the word!!.

I will dance with you first and foremost but when I don't dance with you W is my next choice and that is just the way I feel. You don't like it because it's not you. FH-Well I'm sorry for that. Most everyone else dances the old people way and I am just not ready to be linked to that way of dancing just yet. Do a 1000 alamande lefts, square thru 4's and weave the ring a week, it gets real boring weaving and the ladies bowing and weaving and not touching hands, (Like you have ****** on your hands), don't even think about trying to do a twirl Half don't even want to swing when they get back to the home position. Boy is that a blast!!. If I have to dance like that for the rest of my life I WILL just quit it altogether. We can either look forward to our up coming trips to W Falls and Baton Rouge or blow it off.

I am glad that we are communicating maybe it will help.

FH-I can tell you one thing for sure if I tell W how you feel about her she would just die since she thinks that she has your approval. ****** she would have never started dancing with me if she didn't think it was ok and I assured her it was.

I have to go for now so I can deliver your time sheet to Oaks.

Love you, just as always,

My response on 7/14/06 7:30AM to H 7/13/04 11:16AM email:
Morning!

Read my reply with a open mind & don't get upset !
I'm just trying to get you to understand how I feel & why.

TH- You didn't have to tell me where you stand with square dancing or dancing in general,
I already knew..you've told me several times.
TH- But I still don't think you understand where I'm coming from...my point of view, even after you read my previous email.

My standards for my dancing are , no one should progress to the next level until they have completely mastered the level they are at...meaning I didn't want to progress to Plus level until I felt comfortable doing all the Basic/Mainstream moves without having to think about them & was able to do them as either the male or female.

When we took over last August as Club Treasurer, you were free to dance, while I was the one that had to sit out, learn what had to be done with the job & do it, which meant that I didn't get the practice I needed. Now as President it is some better, but still don't feel I can dance as much as I'd like & do job.

To me it's like I'm being penalized for being slower at learning & not being able to go practice.
TH- You can never make me think you would have the patience teaching /practicing with me you have had/shown with W
over the last year or so...you just don't seem to have the same interest in me getting to that point.

Some of the stuff you do, like "diddle in the middle", & the other to kill time when others are squaring thru;
Maybe even some of the twirls, etc...I can do,if you'd take the time to really show me & practice..but you haven't even seemed interested in doing that, even before my neck problems.

TH - You are right...I don't like it because it's not me you're dancing with, but most of all because I'm not the one you want to dance with.....& I bet if positions were reversed, you'd feel the same way I do.

As I say in my reply yesterday, I was so happy & excited when you decided to start square dancing again! After all the years of being left at home while you played softball ..at last this was something we could do together, not only for fun & enjoyment, but exercise, too. Plus we'd get to travel as well. Once again I was wrong!
Had I known a year what was going to happen, I would have never agreed she could be your dance partner!
TH- As usual, you have become obsessed & taken it to the extreme!

But I feel about things quite differently than you....I wouldn't want to do things without you...that's why for years I went with you to softball games, etc. ...hoping that you'd compromise by doing something that I enjoyed, but it rarely ever happened.
TH- That's the area where you are & always been very selfish & inconsiderate....if it's something you enjoy, then you are totally committed, & to ****** with anything or anyone else that might interfere !
Guess I just keep hoping it will happen someday. Marriage should be two people together doing & enjoying things together & sharing.

TH- From reading your email, what I hear is that you are either going to continue dancing with W as you have been doing, or you'll just quit.. That all of this is to keep you interested in dancing.
TH-You still had to get your little digs in...with complements like:
-"Do you think I would have put so much into it if say someone like Gwen or Gerri or someone else that couldn't move well" ( Guess that's why you didn't do it with me ?)
- Most everyone else dances the old people way and I am just not ready to be linked to that way of dancing just yet ( You said the same thing about Round dancing being for old people who couldn't dance, but look at you now..you are taking Round dancing ! ???? But of course, now you are interested in round dancing so it's ok!)

Just say.....at some point I was able to do what she does, would it make a difference?


You didn't comment on this: ( or were the 3 & 4 paragraphs of your email your comments?!?!)
Said you'd support me in exercise, diet, & dancing to improve...but
- But don't offer much encouragement when I want to go dancing more
or mentioned that thought it would be good exercise for me to do Round Dance Lessons.

No, I'm not stupid enough to tell you to quit nor do I want you to quit. It is good exercise for you (& for me.)
The one thing I do worry about is how losing sleep is going to affect your health over period of time.
If it comes to anyone quitting it will be me.

What is gonna happen when have done all this but still wind up getting burned out & want to quit dancing before I catch up with you?
TH- Guess I'll just be out of luck ...& be stuck at home & you'll move on to some new interest. Don't want to see that happen.

Yes, I'm looking forward to our up coming trips to Wichita Falls and Baton Rouge.

As I've already said it will take time for the hurts of the past month or so to heal..just bear with me.

Square dancing is suppose to be fun & enjoyable..Not a Contest !

Maybe there is a way for us to comprise on some of this.

Love ya'


PS --
ALL OF THIS OR ANY OTHER LETTERS, NOTES, EMAILS, PHONE, OR OTHER CONVERSATIONS. ARE OUR PERSONAL MATTERS & AS SUCH, ARE NOT TO BE DISCUSSED WITH ANYONE !



H 7/14/04 9:40AM Reply to My 7:30AM Email:

Good morning to you.

I will try and answer some of the questions or concerns you made this am.

First and all what I said about the Gewn and Geri thing was meant that I would not have gone dancing as much as I did last year if it was only for straight up dancing. It had nothing to do with you. I went 4 days a week some weeks without you and I meant that I would not have gone as much. Damn you read too much into every thing I say.

I have heard you say many times about getting dizzy twirling, so I just dance the normal with you. You still don't have the confidence that you think you need and spinning you around and getting you disorientated probably wont help. You can dance a whole lot better than you give yourself credit for being able to do.

As far as "would it make a difference if I could dance like W", what is that supposed to mean. I would be able to dance differently the way I dance with you , yes. I told you yesterday and I will not never tell you this again. You are my wife and I will "dance with you first, anytime you want to dance. But when I don't dance with you W is my next choice. We are dance partners and have danced many times to get where we are and we dance well together. What ever you want to try and do tell me. Watch us dance and see what it is you want me to teach you. ****** all you have to do is ask me and I will show you anything you want to learn.
It is no big mystery. I have told you a thousand times read the plus list. Tell me the ones that you do not have down pat and I will go over them with you. I have showed you many times right there in our own den, different moves. How many times have I showed you "chase right"?. I will show you every day til the day I die if I need to

You act like I have never attempted to try and get your level of dancing up. That is totally false. I don't what your stumbling block is about learning. Make a list and I will go over them with you every day if you want. I laugh and tease with you about some of the moves you have a continual problems with. Not ugly at all.

FH- Maybe if you concentrated more on what you are doing (learning) instead of picking at what or where I am at, it will help you more.

I hope we will be able to dance for a long time to come as it is something we can both do and enjoy.

As for round dancing I am in the middle of lessons now. When they are done and you still want to learn that too I will go through them again with you. Marilyn slowed her class 2 weeks ago and caught us up the 4 weeks we missed being as we already had a lot of basic moves down we learned in Colorado. The Prowls are nice people but they teach a strict type of dancing and demanding style. I like doing my own style like Marilyn and Jarrel teach and do. They look to really have fun as many don't seem to.

FH-I find it very interesting whit all the ****** talking about me round dancing and now you are interested?????.

I don't want every time I go dancing to be a fight and ****** slinging contest because it isn't worth it to me.

I will do anything to help you that you want to get you where you feel comfortable dancing.

I have and will continue to go dancing with or without you, with or without W etc.. I don't just go dancing if W goes. I have in the past gone many, many, times without her as I'm sure I will do in the future. She is 500 miles from here and it hasn't slowed me down a bit this week. I am going tonight to advance lessons, tomorrow night to my favorite club, Friday somewhere and Saturday to Cat Springs. It is all just about dancing. I hope you see that it is only that and very soon.

gotta go to work now,

love ya,


His exact words on D-day were ? I love you, but I?m not in love with you?, have felt this way since before my heart attack & dying twice in 1 day in April ??03 (about 2 -1/2 yrs), tired of ?faking? it.
In email H sent me 2 days after D-day ( BTW ?just the day after D-day, took his dance partner to eat at his mother?s house after dance lessons & meet his Aunt, Uncle & cousin! & but didn?t tell me found out days later when was talking to his mother about something else.; & she mentioned that W had brought them her homemade peanut brittle for Xmas gift)

Here?s email he sent me on 12.20, just 2 days after Dday?.
Hope you morning is going well. It is kinda slow so far today.
I don't want to upset you anymore than I already have but I am sincere in telling you, don't give up on us yet. Honey give me a little time to get my ****** together. You are a most wonderful person that I love with all my heart. I know it's a blow to you.
Please don't stop with your dieting. It is really starting to show. You are getting results and look very nice.

I have made so many mistakes with you. I have been so selfish and just plain ugly( although not intentional) with little remarks. Maybe it was my lack of self confidence or something but you didn't deserve it. I am so lucky you didn't leave me for being harsh . I know that I have seemed thoughtless at times and I am truly so sorry for ever hurting you. My mind is so cloudy right now but I love you so much. You deserve to be on a pedestal. Just don't give up on me. I better stop for now. See you this afternoon.

I Love you,

Then his reply to my response:

Honey. When I say dont worry about finances I mean just that. First of all that is not something you have to worry about EVER. I want you to be secure about that. Second of all like I said it's not over between us. Give me a chance. Let's take one day at a time for now. There is no need to push or rush into anything while emotions are running so high. I've been able to talk to you more in the last few days than I have in the last year or so. I want you to be sure and understand me, I will take care of you. That you can believe, do not give making it financially a second thought. I promise you with all I am. I know you think your world has crumbled around you but something had to give.

About questions, I meant that I might not have answers to some of your questions you might have right now.

That is what I am searching for, something to build on going forward.

ly

Note left me tell me he was leaving month after D-day:
" My Darling,

I have to go way for a little while to figure out somethings. Please don't give up on me just yet, but if you do I guess I have it coming. It will be OK I promise. I am going to stay at a suite that has a weekly rental really cheap. I thought it would be best before just going to moms right off. Just for a week to be alone and do some soul searching. I know it may not be the most proper way to let you know but telling you in person would be just too emotional right now. You know the kind of heart I have so have a little faith in me. Please don't worry about the finances. I promise I will be there to take of you.

The letter you wrote me New Year's Eve is the most sincere straight from the heart words that have ever been given to me. I cling to them dearly.

Catholic men go on retreats yearly to mediate and pray. Probably a good thing.

I know this is most upsetting for you and I am more sorry than you will ever know. It's not the end. If something doesn't give I'm going to crack up.

In our early years we separated few time but something always brought us back together - Well, I need to find it again. 99% of our 38 years have been wonderful and I'd do it all over again.

I love you & always will

H - 05 0125 Email reply just few days after moved out to note I wrote him:

You have been a busy little beaver. You have a great style in writing. I know how much you have poured your heart into me and for the love of God that is all I am thinking about. For the greatest part of my life I have felt the exact same way. As long as we were together we could overcome anything. I felt everything about you that you do in me. One of the most contenting feelings I have ever had was to come home on a Saturday afternoon and you & R were in the process of finishing up cleaning our beautiful and loving home. FH- It smelled great, no clutter and was proud if anyone happen to come over. I use to love to hand water each little blade of grass in the evenings. The waking up early in the am and we would make love & go back to sleep. Play hooky, make love & just chill for the day. FH-I don?t want to start telling you some of the things that have upset me through the past years because they may sound trivial or infantile to you. I have not just sat down and listed them but I will if you think it might can help us . I have made comments about certain things to you in the past that upset me more than you will ever know but it was passed off like a joke ?the circus has left town, but the clown is still here? I know you have given me the best years of your life and I have given you the best of mine., NO REGRETS. I hope and pray with all my heart that we can somehow work it out. If I didn?t still love you then it would be a shut case. But I do.

I can see your stance for keeping some kind of sanity and I respect that. I miss my family and my home more each passing day. You are in my thoughts continually through the day.
I?ll write more tomorrow. Be careful and take care of yourself,

My Requests were: as I understood at time from "Love Is Tough":
--Ask that you NOT tell me you ?love me? if / until such time that you can honestly, truthfully, with your whole heart can tell me ?you love me?, and mean it like a husband? like it is suppose to be between man & his wife?in way expected ..like marriage vows we took

-Since this it is your choice/decision to leave, I will respect it by leaving the choice/decision to call/make contact to you..Will only call/contract you if emergency or urgent issues arises.
Will continue email, unless you tell me otherwise.

- Ask that should you need/want to come to house, that you check with / make arrangement with me in advance

--you not discuss me,/us with others.

The DJs you missed (though you hit a number of them)

FH: You used to always have great discipline.
FH: Don?t sell yourself short!!


Oh, I can't get through all the reprint...could you just excerpt the DJs...or better yet...can you just see how very much you defined each other...stomped each other with your permission to say who each of you were?

LA

Mostly H to you, you know. He carries huge responsibility for a lot that isn't his, not within his control, and it must crush him even as it feeds him the feeling of being powerful.

Perfect set up for a heart attack.

You didn't do that.

LA

Here are the DJs hope helps you..I saw more when
I was separating them out...
His DJs to me:

. FH-You are doing great and it will change your life trust me. To see you trimmer again is going to be so great. You used to always have great discipline


. FH -You have been to put it bluntly, lazy or complacent, when it comes to caring about yourself. Maybe not the right words but I?m trying to find the right adjective to communicate what I?m trying to say. I care about you and I want you to feel great about yourself.FH- I know you like it when look nice, to your standards


FH-Right now plus or hard plus would greatly challenge your intellect but it is so routine for me and the A stuff make me really think. I don?t want to get so bored with dancing that I back off and eventually lose interest.


FH-I think you need to get back to normal

These seemed more like treats &/or to make me feel guilty..they worked!
FH- I will quit square dancing all together and take up another hobby. I left it once 37 years ago and I can do it again!!!
FH-Sh$t maybe it will be all over for me soon and you can worry about something that is real

FH-Like I told you before if you want me too I'll quit and sit on my [censored] until I find something else to do in the place of what I love to do

FH-Well I'm sorry for that. Most everyone else dances the old people way and I am just not ready to be linked to that way of dancing just yet

FH-I can tell you one thing for sure if I tell W how you feel about her she would just die since she thinks that she has your approval. ****** she would have never started dancing with me if she didn't think it was ok and I assured her it was


FH- Maybe if you concentrated more on what you are doing (learning) instead of picking at what or where I am at, it will help you more

FH-I find it very interesting whit all the ****** talking about me round dancing and now you are interested?????.

FH-Take a chill pill you have me forever if you want.

FH - I have and will continue to go dancing with or without you, with or without W etc..
FH - It is all just about dancing. I hope you see that it is only that and very soon.


FH - I don't want every time I go dancing to be a fight and ****** slinging contest because it isn't worth it to me

FH- It smelled great, no clutter and was proud if anyone happen to come over.

FH-I don?t want to start telling you some of the things that have upset me through the past years because they may sound trivial or infantile to you. I have not just sat down and listed them but I will if you think it might can help us . I have made comments about certain things to you in the past that upset me more than you will ever know but it was passed off like a joke ?the circus has left town, but the clown is still here? I know you have given me the best years of your life and I have given you the best of mine., NO REGRETS


TH - My DJs to Hiim

TH-You didn't want to have to come all the way back home to get me however.
( Of course now you come back all this way to get W!) TH-I knew you needed exercise to stay healthy so couldn't very well complain too much about you going so often.

TH-I've had to listen to you brag about how fast a learner & good she was...how excited you were !

TH-All I ever heard you say about me, (& not always just to me but to everyone),
- is how bad a house keeper I am,
- how bad I snore
just to name a two of your favorites!

TH - I'd watch you dancing with her & you always have a smile on your face,
picking & teasing with her, & seem to really be enjoying yourself. But you rarely smile, pick & tease, or seem to be enjoying yourself when you are dancing w/ me

TH-Not only goes she dance better , she even likes softball

TH-Now added to the rest you're taking round dance lessons together- something up until Fun Valley you disliked as much as m

TH- After you said something to me about round dancing being good, less impact exercise, I go to thinking maybe you had a point & that I should give it try. But when I said something to you about that & I was thinking about taking lessons, you looked funny, wasn't encouraging at all.

TH - Said you'd support me in exercise, diet, & dancing to improve...but
- always seem unhappy when you dance w/ me compared to when you dance w/ W
- made me feel like 3rd wheel last week at Frontier Squares dance in Clear Lake
- But don't offer much encouragement when I want to go dancing more or mentioned that thought it would be good exercise for me to do Round Dance Lessons.

TH-Seems to me that I'm getting the leftover of your time, attention & consideration!


TH- As usual, you have taken it to the extreme

TH- You didn't have to tell me where you stand with square dancing or dancing in general,
I already knew..you've told me several times.
TH- But I still don't think you understand where I'm coming from...my point of view, even after you read my previous email


TH- You can never make me think you would have the patience teaching /practicing with me you have had/shown with W over the last year or so...you just don't seem to have the same interest in me getting to that point

TH - You are right...I don't like it because it's not me you're dancing with, but most of all because I'm not the one you want to dance with.....& I bet if positions were reversed, you'd feel the same way I do.

TH- As usual, you have become obsessed & taken it to the extreme!


TH- That's the area where you are & always been very selfish & inconsiderate....if it's something you enjoy, then you are totally committed, & to ****** with anything or anyone else that might interfere !

TH- From reading your email, what I hear is that you are either going to continue dancing with W as you have been doing, or you'll just quit.. That all of this is to keep you interested in dancing.
TH-You still had to get your little digs in...with complements like:
-"Do you think I would have put so much into it if say someone like Gwen or Gerri or someone else that couldn't move well" ( Guess that's why you didn't do it with me ?)
- Most everyone else dances the old people way and I am just not ready to be linked to that way of dancing just yet ( You said the same thing about Round dancing being for old people who couldn't dance, but look at you now..you are taking Round dancing ! ???? But of course, now you are interested in round dancing so it's ok!)

TH- Guess I'll just be out of luck ...& be stuck at home & you'll move on to some new interest. Don't want to see that happen

Now, what does all of this feel like to you? What do you feel when you read it?

LA

Honestly..first thought - angry as to why couldn't he see truth in what I said? However realize that couldn't see truth as was too busy being defensive as I was.
Now makes me very sad that both of us weren't able to communicate better, built anger, frustration, resentment toward each other, withdrew, which caused him to choice to leave.

You didn't see the truth in what you said, either. Do you see where you did the "I'll treat you like you treat me" thingie...for decades?

No...he CHOSE to leave, to DJ you and believe himself righteous. Don't you dare go there.

Get some respect going here...you made your choices and he made his. That's all humans can do. Period.

He doesn't own his choices..." I know you think your world has crumbled around you but something had to give." He had his part in tearing up your marriage...just as you had yours. At least own your part, and only your part--because then you get in the way of him owning his part.

He chose to resent, feel frustration, build anger, withdraw (as a weapon) and disrespect you and your marriage.

That's sad. Pitiful.

What were your choices that you're not owning?

LA

The big one at least to me..that I should have not been afraid of making him mad, losing him, stood up for myself, my belief that was not right he had dance partner!
Am I still missing it?

TGal...

Your H has his truth and you have yours. You kept your truth to yourself to manipulate him...so you wouldn't get answers you didn't want.

All that was in your control. You weren't O&H, were you?

Because of your fear. Your fear of his feelings being your fault. Are they? Tell me honestly what you believe right now?

LA

Sorry to try your patience.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but have tough time getting this one... how another person feelings are not my fault when/ if I do/say something that provokes/causes them to be angry, sad, whatever. Is it that I have no control over how they will REACT to what I do/say that makes their feelings not my fault?
Am I getting closer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know, I knew we could get to this when you were ready.

You believe that you can make your H mad, reject you, leave you, correct?

Why?

Why would God create humans with that kind of nuclear power if he wanted us to procreate and populate the earth?

LA

Yes, I believe can make H mad, reject me, leave me.
Why? Because we are human beings...as even Jesus got angry, so just seem to make sense to me that that was way we were made, so that by our actions/words could cause others to be angry, sad, hurt, happy, rejected, accepted, etc.
Honestly, I'm really trying to get understand! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Jesus got angry because his Heavenly father's boundaries were being crossed.

Anger is a signal...Our emotions give us information, TGal...nothing more. They are information about what we believe.

I believe my H shouldn't act this way...anger results. Wait, that's not a boundary...that's an expectation...one I created. My anger is mine...information about me.

My H moved out to find himself. That crosses my boundary of marriage. I have to enforce my boundary.

He didn't make me angry...did he?

He made a choice.

I make a choice.

God respected us so much that he didn't make us choose him...it is voluntary, even at the life blood of his son.

He only gave us the ability to control ourselves, no one else. He would not give us the responsibility of other people's feelings unless he also gave us the control, would he?

That's crazymaking.

I know you're really trying to understand. You were raised to be responsible for your father and mother's feelings. Others. Strangers (What would they think!!!)...this isn't something that is easy...you have layers and layers of beliefs supporting that you are so powerful that you can MAKE others do stuff, feel stuff...

God didn't make us that way. If we're here to do everything for othes...what are the others here for, TGal?

LA

I really don't believe that I am powerful enough to MAKE other do stuff, more like what I say/do can CAUSE them to react. "every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" just popped into my silly little head.

Help me understand...you said..
"My H moved out to find himself. That crosses my boundary of marriage. I have to enforce my boundary.
He didn't make me angry...did he?
He made a choice.
Yes, I really am trying to get thru those layers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I make a choice."

I see his choice was to move out. Don't quite understand
exactly how you enforced your boundary, what your choice was.

You have influence...that is not nearly as powerful as the word "cause" is it?

Yep, you quoted Newton's first law of physics. And that only works emotionally with children. I had that belief. It was yucky. I put it down.

Well, I wasn't really referring to me and my choice about my H. I bawled my eyes out. LOL

And he left to continue his A, not find himself. I enforced my boundary that he couldn't keep doing it in my house!!

My next choice, after choosing allow myself bawl my eyes out, was to Plan A.

How can your H make you love him?
How can he make you frustrated?
How can he make you joyful?
How can he make you do anything?

See, you'll love him from your belief that you love him. When you replace that belief, you will no longer choose to love him.

You will feel frustration when what you expect/want/desire to happen doesn't. Without your expectation, you won't feel frustration. You'll feel surprise.

You DJ'd yourself with "silly little head"...sounds affectionate, but puts yourself down. You are thoroughly capable, intelligent and stubborn enough to just get this.

Okay...you ever have a crush on somebody who didn't know you were alive? They didn't make you think/feel about them, did they? You did...something in you thought that they were hot stuff...and what that hotstuff usually was were things in you that you didn't believe you had.

When we crave someone, we are usually craving to fill in our holes. We don't know we can fill them ourselves.

This is the first tenet of self-ownership...nobody makes you and you can't make anybody. You have influence, but it is limited.

Your H may fear intimacy to his very soul, but you didn't make him fear...he got that from his childhood and hasn't owned it or overcome it. Your fault? Your power? You can control or cause it?

Now, all rules are off with our kids under the age of reason (around 8)...they look to us to tell them who they are. You know this.

LA

Aw..you got me.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />how'd you figure out I was very stubborn? Comes from Scot/Irish/Cherokee hertiage (sp?) Should of had & always wanted the auburn hair, got the olive skin that tans so nicely & then causes wrinkles in later years! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yes, I do know I am capable & intelligent, just to name a few of my many talents <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> especially since I didn't finish HS, quit 3 months before graduated since was pg.
I've come a long way with God's help & blessing!


OK, beginning to see tiny light in the dark tunnel of understanding..the "crush" thingy helped me understand better!
Do I understand you correctly..that I should need to stop craving H, that you don't see any hope, that I need to just move on.
All I have to do now is believe I don't love him, & I can move on with no pain, hurt, etc..just kidding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"When we crave someone, we are usually craving to fill in our holes" Reckon this could/does apply to food..I certainly trying lately to fill my big hole of a tummy!:D

Heard that . "nobody makes you and you can't make anybody"
& believed I believed it.

No, if my H fears intimacy I see how not my fault,etc.
My words/actions might influence/trigger that fear, but I did not cause it.

Need advice - had another of those instinct thoughts pop into my head today. Feel very strongly that I need to go to bank tomorrow, withdraw large part of $$ & put in separate account. My doing this would be a major DJ, will result in major AO & maybe worse, some other type reaction by H when he figures it out, but I'm willing to risk it. Up to now I have felt could trust him regarding money,& he's not done anything that I know of to date to cause me to distrust.. but not so sure I should keep trusting as I have done..much rather be safe than sorry. Would be better to tell him after I've done it or just let him find out?

If slow day at work tomorrow, will try to have response to your first reply today.

I am truly thankful & blessed to have you in my life!
Thanks for your advise, insight & most of all today for your patience..bet I push'em to limit today !

"Heard that . "nobody makes you and you can't make anybody"
& believed I believed it."

Gonna hold you to that, toots.

Now...about the money...

I dunno. See, you're in the inbetween...you are legally married but seperated. I don't know legally if that is kosher or not. Are you acting from fear? That usually leads us to places that really suck.

"Do I understand you correctly..that I should need to stop craving H, that you don't see any hope, that I need to just move on. All I have to do now is believe I don't love him, & I can move on with no pain, hurt, etc..just kidding!"

You almost gave me a heart attack!!!

Uh, just kidding. You wuttle devil you.

Have a good day tomorrow. Feel the freedom of not being responsible for other people's feelings, thoughts, beliefs or destinies...you should lose two billion pounds that way, at least.

((((()))))
LA

Now...about the money...
I dunno. See, you're in the inbetween...you are legally married but seperated. I don't know legally if that is kosher or not. Are you acting from fear? That usually leads us to places that really suck.

• No, not from fear so much as a lack of trust. Couple of things H said yesterday makes me wonder..he gave me list of cc bills he paid, including paying off his car, which when we'd discussed what would pay wasn't even mentioned. When him if he'd paid one to XX, which is in my name only, he got sorta defensive, miffed, & said No, HE hadn't; that would be the last one he paid! When these are combined with his not responding to request for us to be honest w/ each other, & no wanting me to have access to his cell phone account..realize I mostly likely should not trust him as much as I have been.

Really feel that "something is in the wind" kinda like weeks/months leading up to Dday! YUKY, YUKY feeling...uncertainly, suspense...waiting for the other shoe to drop!

As for legally, it is a joint account & other than family, couple of close friends that I know are aware we are separated, willing to bet he's not told too many people..for couple of reasons - they might ask questions -he doesn't want to discuss it; wants to keep his "good guy" image, & to protect OW.

Heard that . "nobody makes you and you can't make anybody"
& believed I believed it." Gonna hold you to that, toots.

• Gonna do my best to remember this one! Seems so easy, until actually "in the moment"..then old habits, reactions, etc. just kick in!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hope your Monday is a marvelous one!
Thanks for being you & willing to share your knowledge, experience, understanding & most of all your patience & friendship!
(((()))))

Your choice on the money sounds like a good thing, I guess. I would substantiate what you take in some way...and no, didn't realize he was playing fast and loose while saying he was being reasonable. No shock there, eh?

And yes on the new belief...it is simple, but so far from easy! Practice practice practice...you can do this even when the old emotions kick in as information from your old belief. Nope, this one isn't mine. I'm respectful now, of myself and others. I listen and repeat. No arguing here.

Take care as you take action...I believe in you and all that you're discovering about yourself and how you live your life. You do what you choose to do. I'll be behind you.

LA

And yes on the new belief...it is simple, but so far from easy!
Seems harder for me..due to my not ever having been on my own & alone before..H family was my family, but well aware that "blood is thicker" ; since H has been my life, have few friends, although they are "true friends" & ones had for years, all but 1 since at least HS; & my kids have lives of their own, & to be honest, really have tried very hard not to "bash" their Dad.. so support system alittle weak..so MB & especially you are a true God send for me!
I know your advice is excellent of there would have been others who chimed in by now !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

Whoa...wait...the last belief...that others would have chimed in by now...

I didn't think that. I thought our mutually novel-length posts scared them away!

Oh, no...what if I'm all wrong! LOL

You're terrific and I'm happy God brought us together. You enrich my spirit and tickle my funny spot. Your honesty brings you in close and mine in return is what you're believing...and you can.

Now, I have to go practice what I preach instead of just writing about it...

(((((TGal)))))

LA

Never thought about our novel length post maybe frightening people away..just thought those type of posts were "normal"
(Great minds think alike! Hehe!)
Glad you have a sense of humor & understand my rather "warped" one!
Yep.. you gotta practice what you preach
I have to get ready for Monday!

BTW - are you a writer by profession..is that your day job on top of all the others? just nosey/curious,if don't mind my asking.

Did I tell you for the 50th time how wonderful you are.

You guessed I was a writer.

I'm happy dancing...along with GMTA above...

Yes, I am a writer. I write on MB boards.

LOL

And I write stories, too.

However, I don't get paid for them.

I do, however, pay people for a living.

I'm balanced, eh?

LA

Thinking of you...no rush. Just thought of.

LA

Thought of you alot & wished several times there was way I could talk w/ you...

Know this might not make a lot of sense, but had a really hard time since my last post.
I have tried to practice what I’ve learned from MB & you, done pretty well with no LBs.
But with myself for each step forward taken 10 steps backward! EZ to slip back into life long habits, patterns. Feel ready to give up…want to find place to hide, pull covers over my head..unable to deal with all this – too overwhelming, too much pain, uncertainty, depressed, crying, immobilized, want to shut down. –mentally, emotionally & at times physically from all turmoil. Haven’t been able to shake feeling that Hs wanting to paid off all bills, restore house, etc.) is all leading to somewhere.

Each day I’ve prayed asking God’s guidance, direction & peace, that He knew my heart, my H heart, & my needs better than I

Really bad day I was reading MB post, when I came across this one

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;gonew=1#UNREAD

These words really spoke to me:

".....I realized even the most simple contact had the most detrimental effects on me."
"......At this time you are all over the place."
"..... Does that mean that he will return to you a repetent and remorseful H? Right now, it doesn't seem so."
"....... I recognized that I wasn't worthy of crumbs...I was worthy of the entire cake and if he wasn't willing to give it to me...well, he wasn't having any part of me. I finally got it....and then my recovery...personal recover was to begin."

"The one thing we tend to do when recovering from infidelity is to neglect the blessings....if we paid more attention to these blessings and counted them...personal recovery would come to us so much quicker "

"My selfishness was overwhelming in that I was playing hostess and favorite guest to my personal pity party."



Also read this MB Post - :Giving Up" http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;gonew=1#UNREAD
"Friend, it's time to yank yourself out of the morass, take up for yourself, and start fighting the alien.
I know only one way to ensure things will never get better and that’s for you to keep on rolling down the river, going with the flow and being nice to the alien. Get with the program,... It’s time to get up on your hind legs and fight back, as Grandma used to say."

• This is more like the stronger real me!
  Actually do feel strength when read the words in these two posts..that I can make it..with God's help!

Really made me think & realize alot of things I didn't /couldn't see before, or chose not to see: - have been too trusting, & gullible,
That I’ve been a doormat long enough…
Some of the first things that came to my mind.almost immediately..
• I should start back going to some of the dances
• Ask him to sit down to see where we are at with finances,now, his plan for restoring house & ask what/how he sees our relationship in the future , etc. (Few months back he told me that if I wanted to draft document stating & outlining that he’d take care of me financially, etc he’d sign it in front of notary..interested in seeing if he’s still willing, depending on what he has to say ) Time for me to look out for myself ! All without any LBs !


• After more than year of honoring H’s request that we not tell anyone & being reasonably certain that he’s told some – I feel time has come for me to tell truth, my side-knowing that with H talent for twisting/turning truth to his favor/POV, like a lawyer.to quit protecting / enabling him...by pretending all is "normal" / OK..
That I need to expose to his family, friends, & to grown kids, OW’s mother ( if can get her name – met her several times really sweet lady) & her job - felt this very strongly & the words just flowed onto the paper!-- even though still have no concrete proof
making sure everyone else know I want & trying re-build the marriage. I did not hinder his decisions to move out, although I did not agree or condone, that beginning with his decision to have an affair in the first place - was his decision.
[OK I admit my meanness showing is as want to word it to remind all good Christian church goers (dances) & Catholic family members - that is sinning, & they aren't helping by putting their heads in sand, acting as if his behavior is "normal" maybe include couple articles I’ve found on adultery/infidelity from church view]


Week ago, when Son came home from mall he told me he'd seen OW's daughter at restaurant , that she'd come up to him & ask if his name was AB, when he said yes, why. She told him her name & whose daughter she was - that his dad & her mother were "friends"
Then this Monday night, was at restaurant in mall, & this time she came up to him again, made small talk & introduced him to her co-workers ( she's the restaurant manager) as her new "step-brother" & that his dinner was on her. He said didn't like it but went along with it, that he didn't & wasn’t right to blame her for her mother actions.
He was upset with his dad however, Son said when our neighbor left his wife of 25+ years for girl younger than his daughter, his Dad told him that he'd never do that to his mother !

Today son learned from his grandmother (his Dad’s mother) that his Dad was out state where most of her family lives at dance, wondered if his Dad took OW to meet family & if they stayed with family while there or at motel/hotel. ( All look forward to big 3 day family reunion there every Easter)
Between these events think son realizes that even though his Dad tells him & acts like all is normal between us, that his Dad isn’t telling him truth, which has him really upset with his Dad.


Still working on reply to your 3/12 posts – but took detour, which I believe is way I need to go for me.

As always looking forward to your replies & comments. Thanks for walking with me on my journey, feel it will be a long one – if doesn’t kill me know will make me stronger

I'm behind you on exposure. Understand you have felt like a doormat, just want you to see you made the choices which led to that...he can't make you be a doormat. I don't think you are one, btw. I think you're human.

Silly me, huh?

I'm glad reading here helps you, guides you and connects you with others.

As for your son's experience with OW's daughter...ask how feels feels, what he believes, and inform him first of the A. See, OW's daughter isn't blameless...she is uninformed. He needs to say, "Your mother is cheating with my father on my mother. Doesn't make us step-anything."

He has to have his power, which is truth, right?

Is it mean to proclaim truth? Your son needs to see it; the charade doesn't tell a grown man that he knows what he knows, just allows him to tell himself he doesn't know.

Crazymaking.

So, three huge cheers on exposure and your words flowing and your strength rising. May the block to your O&H statements have been not exposing, you think?

Thinking of you,

LA

Hey, TGal...

I found a thread here I wanted to see if you'd take a look at...here is the link from the beginning...

What do you think of this?

I was wondering if this fit your situation at all?

Thinking of ya...

LA

I read some of this..& do believe it does fit my situation.
The MidLife Crisis site is the first one I found that seemed to offer any explanation ...remember reading somewhere that midlife crisis was usually triggered by traumic (sp?) event - guess his dying twice in 1 day would qualify, huh? Anyway here is my post on MLC site back in March,2005 - if you'd like to read it
http://midlifecrisisforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9846084204/m/6351098631/r/4631079631#4631079631
Hope did right for it to work..might have to copy/paste.
Will try to post more later.
Thinking of you as well..alot.

LA ...

Please clarify what you meant..not sure understand..

• "May(be) the block to your O&H statements have been not exposing, you think?"
  

Since you essentially held your WH's secret, do you think that blocked your ability, your allowance to yourself to be open and honest (O&H)?

I do O&H with "I believe" and "I feel" statements. They are voluntary. They are to share myself with others. I have to do that because I have it in my standards. I share my thoughts, feelings and beliefs. If I didn't do that, withheld (lying by omission), then I couldn't enforce my boundary of not allowing others to lie to me.

Keeping secrets, covering up or ignoring truth (all are the same to me), prohibits me from enforcing my boundaries...so why wouldn't it also keep me from holding to my standards?

LA

Update…on my mental, emotional & physical roller coaster ride….

Trying to get my ducks in row.. will talk with attorney on either 11th or 18th, just to ask questions, get advise, etc.

Friday 3/31 - H is came to house after work to start w/ dejunking garage to use for staging area for cleaning out attic, then wants to put down 5/8-3/4 inch plywood for decking in attic before having new AC/Heat units, ducting & new vent in den installed - which H wants done before gets too hot.
Didn't get to the attic , H was dancing in exhibition at yearly festival downtown on Sat morning & then going to another dance out of town,. All after telling me earlier in week that if club danced in festival as always do on Sat morning they’d have to do it w/o him! I told him that made me when he changed plans I felt disrespected & was inconsiderate of him to do so, since I cancelled my plans in order to have time to get stuff done. Next time to please show me respect & consideration by letting me know ahead of time if his plans change, so I can have option of changing mine. He’d arranged for the trash guy to come to haul off stuff out of garage at 5P, after he’d leave for night dance. No AO, DJ’s.
I also went to festival as I’ve done each year since it started as it’s always fun, & all profits go to the Senior Activity Center. I was early, so I stood in the shade between 2 buildings while waited for it to open at 10a…H & OW walked by, H spoke, she started to, then just walked on. I hung back & watched club dance few tips, few of club members saw me & came up to talk w/ me..then I walked on down street to see rest of festival. After exhibition over, H came back to house, brought me a watermelon. Later on he said that reason he wanted to restore the house was so I, we could be proud of it again; that he wasn’t doing it so could get his things/stuff out.
Trash guy didn’t show up at all Sat. He did came Sun morning as I was leaving,& told him he’d have to call H to make new arrangements as I had plans Then I called H on his cell phone when didn’t get answer at his mothers. He called guy & arranged for him to come back at 2p Sunday afternoon & H met him here.

I ask H if he thought could arrange to have my car worked on before next week & he ask why.
said so I could go to LA for family reunion at Easter. ( it’s his mother’s family) H said that it would be silly to take 2 cars..that of course I’d ride with him & his mother just like always..

Also said I was gullible. Week or so ago he said I was pessimistic, which really upsets /makes him angry with me, as he really is also. I agreed with him, I am gullible, trust him in some things / ways .

In last few weeks, when he’s called has said how his mother is driving him crazy..her singing, humming, her talking on phone & telling each one talks to the same things each time.. His indirect way of letting me know he’ll be moving out soon perhaps.

When I’ve had spare time last few weeks, & my brain was working ..I’ve been researching, reading about boundaries – personal & in marriage, active listening,& other some that I’ve printed off or copied, but not read completely yet.
Here’s sites which has a lot of helpful info: -
Active Listening:
http://www.mindtools.com/CommSkll/ActiveListening.htm

Personal Boundary Info
http://www.bpd411.org/boundariesintro.html

Boundaries in Marriage
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kreitz/Christian/Boundaries/all.html?HTML=Html+Version

Still need to do my beliefs, standards, values, principles, truths, etc. which I started.
Then there are questions from you I still need to answer, which also started.
Slowly, but surely I’ll get there!

From 3/26/06 Post

"I'm behind you on exposure. Understand you have felt like a doormat, just want you to see you made the choices which led to that...he can't make you be a doormat. I don't think you are one, btw. I think you're human. Silly me, huh?"

• Yes, I know was my choice to agree to his request not to tell anyone..not knowing any better at time..exceptions being close friends felt I needed for help & my support, have pretty much honored that for last year.
  I'll admit I was embarrassed, humiliated that by my allowing H to dance w/ OW, having no reason not to trust him, no proof-other than feeling/gut instinct that "they were more than "Just friends" / dance partners" as H told me.. was afraid that if told I'd run him off..& all the other excuses I told myself..
  
  I am pretty sure he’s told lots more than I have..besides finding MB since then, learning about exposing, another reason I want to expose, so can hear truth about the last year, since H has such a talent for twisting & turning things , like a lawyer does want my side, the truth heard, hopefully in such way I don’t come across as jealous, jilted bi$$h also like to work in that know most all belong to & go to church weekly, are all aware adultery/infidelity is sin..even found some info to include from churches !!! So by ignoring, are actually condoning H & OW behavior instead of pointing it out !!
  Will be honest & admit that when I even think about exposure, I get the jitters, tingly all over, stomach knots, etc. as know he will be really angry & upset, especially about exposure in dance circle as likes all think he’s good guy, but know must & will do it .
  I really don’t believe that after us being separated over year now, that exposing will end H relationship w/ OW, think way too late for that to happen!
  Really wished that I'd known about MB lot earlier, but figure there’s a reason I didn’t, wasn’t God’s timing
  My choice to keep silent made me feel really bad about myself..really beat down…don’t like to lie by omission, make excuses, etc. just never like it! Never good at it either !

"I'm glad reading here helps you, guides you and connects you with others."

• What helps, guides & connects me the most is what I get from you..your have great compassion, empathy, insight, etc. and share knowledge, advise so freely & willingly, with no judgement, expectations, etc. just lots of patience..which need w/ me !
  all with a wonderful sense of humor! Couldn’t ask for more.
  From some of other post they are able to express in words ways, things I feel, but aren’t able to get into words as they do.

"As for your son's experience with OW's daughter...ask how feels feels, what he believes, and inform him first of the A. See, OW's daughter isn't blameless...she is uninformed. He needs to say, "Your mother is cheating with my father on my mother. Doesn't make us step-anything."
He has to have his power, which is truth, right?
Is it mean to proclaim truth? Your son needs to see it; the charade doesn't tell a grown man that he knows what he knows, just allows him to tell himself he doesn't know.
Crazymaking."

• Will do this one next time

"So, three huge cheers on exposure and your words flowing and your strength rising. May the block to your O&H statements have been not exposing, you think?"

• Words did flow, but bad news didn’t get all written down & now have writer’s block
  (ask God to give me words if this path He wanted me to take, but guess I messed up or again just not right time..sure words will come when needed)
  When have letter to MIL & other siblings, letter to family out of state & one to dancers will post for review, comments editing to be sure no DJs, etc. & don’t sound like jealous, jilted witch!

• As for my strength – don’t want to give false impression..it been coming & going, mostly goes when I’m around H..seem to revert back to old ways/habits..

• Yep, I’m human, just slightly warped & off center ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
  Next time like to come back as little dog to rich loving family ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
  
  Hope have slow day tomorrow at work so can read some of boundary stuff I printed off...just skimmed over it & sounds like what you've told me..even the "crazymaking"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
  
  Hope have good night & wonderful day!
  As always looking forward to your reply!

(((Tgal injection!)))

Thank you very much.

"I ask H if he thought could arrange to have my car worked on before next week & he ask why." Uhm, why aren't you taking care of getting your own car worked on, toots? You can do this. No judgment...more self-care.

What did you say when WH dj'd you with don't be silly? Did you stick to your boundary of respect? Tell him that saying you were silly is abusive? That you do not want to drive to LA with him and his mother?

Him telling you that you are gullible is defining you. You may agree with it, but you are allowing abuse for him to tell you are. Ask him to rephrase, "I believe you are gullible." Okay then.

Same with pessimistic, silly, fragile, beautiful, WHATEVER.

"I am gullible, trust him in some things / ways ." Start owning, Tgal (you'll have to look up my recent posts...novellas...on this)...You CHOSE to trust him in some things and ways. Where's the gullible?

Because he didn't earn his side of the trust? You only choose to trust your side; he earns his.

Truth straightening:

"another reason I want to expose, so can hear truth about the last year," Exposing does not get you truth. It shows truth to the light. Your WH twists and lies. You may not receive the truth.

This is why you expose: "My choice to keep silent made me feel really bad about myself..really beat down…don’t like to lie by omission, make excuses, etc. just never like it! Never good at it either !" You no longer make yourself a living sacrifice, an offense, you know. You are worth not beating up, not judging bad, not choosing to lie by omission. You're worth it.

"Yep, I’m human, just slightly warped & off center !"
DJ to yourself!!! Alert, Alert!! Hands off your own self-respect, Tgal. God says you are whole, complete and marvelously made. Stop dis'ing God.

I got "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud & Townsend. I'm with you on your journey, Tgal!

Are you looking for power or permission with boundaries?

LA

Morning!

Thanks for your responses!
Gotta' go to training class shortly, but have few
things need to clarify / understand:

• "I am gullible, trust him in some things / ways ." Start owning, Tgal (you'll have to look up my recent posts...novellas...on this)...You CHOSE to trust him in some things and ways. Where's the gullible?

I tried looking up your recent posts & under user name
"novellas" & didn't find anything..Guess I'll search
using "owning" to see what get..in meantime..could you
tell name of post/subject &/or poster I need to find about "owning"?

Want to work on my truths, beliefs, etc.
Little confused about these..are beliefs, values, principles, standards, morals, etc. all same things as my truths?

Have a great day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess I mislead you...my recent posts...this week...to a few people...they were long...my "novellas" comment was about length, not subject.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Just click on my name and go back to Monday's date for posts...I think. better_than_ever's thread with my name as the thread title might help you out...same for LLG's thread "Seeking Experience and Attention to Detail"

Sorry I wasted your time by not being more clear. You ARE a search engine, Tgal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Found 'em! Don't think was waste of my time!
Now just gotta find time to read all of 'em!
Sorry..have more questions... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
"Little confused about these..are my truths my beliefs, values, principles, standards, morals, etc.? "

Is there certain order that I need to work on these things
in? If so, which first?
Truths / Expectations
Ownership
Boundaries

Time to go home.. later!
Thanks!

Bump for LA

Tgal...

You are task oriented, so I get that. I was too. We multi-task in a lot of ways, but when it's big, we take one premeditated bite at a time.

What I found out was how much my brain wanted to give me what I want. Pretty much 24/7 desire to do so. You have all these things brewing in the back on burners you didn't know you have. I began with separate and equal for my first bite...much bigger than you think. Ownership then comes in, like it was the main thing...other stuff rolls on.

Let God direct your path. Do not judge yourself for thinking about one thing and not another. Trust yourself to have all of these new ideas brewing, mixing, growing...main thing? Don't do tv, movies, entertainment too much. Then you'll get to hear more of what you're thinking.

LA

I'm back from vacation...and I saw your other thread. Great idea. What did you decide on exposure?

You separated your finances (which I forgot to applaud you for); how is that working out? Also, I've been thinking of you as we started the cleaning out, as well. Began with the garage. Half is redone...really nice feeling looking at the half.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Today we do a bit more, and I'm looking forward to it. 15 minute chunks are delighting my DH, because it was overwhelming him thinking of the whole project and doing it until it got done at one time. When we complete the garage, we start on the rooms...have already tagged the get rid of stuff...then we reward ourselves with new carpeting throughout. Yippee. I'll keep you updated, if you want.

Am starting back to the gym tomorrow, again. Still want to be workout buddies? H wants to go for a walk today (it's gorgeous) because gym is closed. Don't know if that counts as a work out.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Welcome back..hope you had a wonderful restful fun vacation!

I also took time off....I left at 12Noon Thursday 4/13 to attend H's mother's family's reunion out of state. Rode w/ H & my MIL.. Always enjoyable & great food...& really felt I needed few days to just get away. Returned to work Wed 4/19.

Lots going on..started several time to reply, but something came up. Then over the weekend

• • worked on exposure list,, letter to friends/family, & sq dancers
  • tried to compose letter to WH as well as reply to you, but guess wasn't time as words just did not come.
  • also, did some reading online
  • ordered "Torn Asunder-Workbook" & "Boundaries in Marriage" book & workbook
  • Then my daughter came after work on Sat, to spend night & we went thru some of stuff have in garage taken out of attic.

Yesterday, had little better luck with words- were flowing, but randomly & not in any order, form, etc. which will post for your comments, etc. but first will reply to your 4/16 post

"and I saw your other thread. Great idea."

• by this do you mean " sending WH letter owning my part and suggesting 90 Day Trial like in "Torn Asunder"?

"What did you decide on exposure?"

• That I would definitely do so..
  In fact, started w/family over Easter weekend. Will complete when cousin gets updated list of all names, addresses, phone & emails updated.
  ( Learned for fact that WH did bring OW to meet family few weeks ago, as I suspected )

"You separated your finances (which I forgot to applaud you for)";

• I thought about it, but never actually did

"15 minute chunks are delighting my DH, because it was overwhelming him thinking of the whole project and doing it until it got done at one time. When we complete the garage, we start on the rooms...have already tagged the get rid of stuff...then we reward ourselves with new carpeting throughout. Yippee. I'll keep you updated, if you want"
Love this idea as I'm with your DH -explain more how doing it..Yes definitely keep me updated!

" Am starting back to the gym tomorrow, again. Still want to be workout buddies?"

• I joined bunch here at work each up $20, as encouragement for losing weight. Group called "Biggest Loser" - whoever loses most get the money-estimated at around $600.Weigh in each Monday - even though I was busy over weekend & didn't eat but 1 meal each day I gained 2 lbs from last week - very disheartening & discouraging ! Yes, still want to be "workout buddies". Waiting on Dr office to call to get appointment to see if exercise will injure my neck problem before I check into joining a gym

Here in no particular order, rhyme, or reason are things came to mind yesterday..

• • so much need to do, overwhelmed, so do nothing
  • don't know/remember things I enjoy doing, except w/ WH, maybe reading/sewing??!
  • at some point - my dislike sports & WH not willing to compromise/negotiate outweighed desire, benefit being w/ WH
  • enabled, allowed, tolerated alot of things from WH out of fear, avoiding conflict
  • need to figure out what/why at some point I gave up became lazy, complacent (sp?); no energy, alot things took to much effort vs benefit ; no will power / self discipline, let self & things go
  

•

• Thanks to you, LA realize that had/have

• .alot expectations about alot of things
  .I am re-active
  .that I look to others for approval, etc/
  . worried / afraid what others think of me - really dislike that as know when younger I didn't!
  .that I put up walls &/or a front to protect me from hurt, letting very few close or to see "me" or what/who I thought was "me" - now having hard time trying to figure "who" I am, what my beliefs, truths, values, principles, etc. are

• • At some point I chose /& began
  . to avoid conflict, just went along, believed did not good to argue, get upset, etc., so why bother, as my opinion/point of view was not listened to

• My part in our marriage decline, as I see it, since WH has made choice not to discuss..
. lazy, complacent
. took things for granted
.didn't meet WH needs,
.quit going to softball games
.not able to sq dance & chose to take WH remarks that I was inferior since unable to learn / keep up with his pace
. snored, had separate beds
. neglected house -
. smoked

My truths (?):
• must keep word / promises
• must do all I can to save marriage
• don't / can't bear guilt for my part, if fails
• regardless of my part - no behavior, etc on my part excuses/justifies WH actions, behavior, affair,
• Don't tolerate / forgive easily lies / stealing
• Trust has to be earned

Will post letter to WH for review, comments, etc when done.

Thanks for your patience, & advise...most appreciated & welcome !
Have a great day!

PS -- Oops! Forget to mention that on way back with WH from family reunion, that I got upset,calmly, but sure still LBs I said his taking OW to meet family was disrespectful to me, & hurt me lot, especially since I understood was saying our situation was my fault; that after year should be able to choose...

Hiya!!! :::waving at you enthusiastically:::

"and I saw your other thread. Great idea." I said this to mean you started a new thread with a specific question to get others' feedback. I have no idea about the Torn Asunder 90-day trial thingie. I read it too long ago. Ack.

My "owning my part" letters were just that. To own to myself and to him what I am aware of, have changed in myself, and why I can commit to those changes with a glad heart. Helped me to grow...never got a comment on them from him. It was for me.

"You separated your finances (which I forgot to applaud you for)" Hear this? .... That's the sound of me unclapping. Yeah...get your brain around that sound, will ya? Do what you say you will do...otherwise, you are lying to yourself...and Self gets ticked.

"• enabled, allowed, tolerated alot of things from WH out of fear, avoiding conflict" Okay, your power...these are things you chose...and you can choose differently. Facing your fear of conflict and stating your thoughts, feelings and beliefs anyway, is how you stop this self-cycle.

"• need to figure out what/why at some point I gave up became lazy, complacent (sp?); no energy, alot things took to much effort vs benefit ; no will power / self discipline, let self & things go" Consider you're depressed, not lazy or complacent. You gave away your power for decades--that is enough to depress anyone. There's no energy leftover because you're using it up inside, in turmoil and conflict. Exhausting. Think of the cleaning out of all the rooms of your house as the physical parallel analogy to what you're doing inside. The more you do, the more energy you will have. Both inside and outside. See your power in each step.

Has nothing to do with will power...you believe in making yourself do stuff you don't believe in...and have a hard time then making yourself do stuff you do believe in. You can clear out stuff for 15-minute increments, both emotionally and physically...internal decisions to let go and emotional/mental ones to let go. You can do this.

Change your perspective...stop choosing the one that says, "Why? What good will it do?" Change it to "Everything I do matters. I matter. I am."

'Cuz that's truth.

"• At some point I chose /& began
. to avoid conflict, just went along, believed did not good to argue, get upset, etc., so why bother, as my opinion/point of view was not listened to" And where was the damage you were doing...by avoiding conflict? Who were you devastating, ripping apart? Why?

"• My part in our marriage decline, as I see it, since WH has made choice not to discuss.." Stop right there. Your part cannot decline. It remains to this day HALF of the marriage. That you chose to base your power on what your WH allowed or didn't is YOUR choice, not his.

"My truths (?):
• must keep word / promises" Why? What belief do you have that says you must do this?

"• must do all I can to save marriage" Again, why? What is your belief?

"• don't / can't bear guilt for my part, if fails" What do you mean by this? You have born a lot of guilt and shame, some of which was not yours, yet it made you feel more powerful, less helpless. If you do everything within your control, to save a marriage...then you can't fail, can you? You succeed, regardless of what the other half of your marriage does.

"• regardless of my part - no behavior, etc on my part excuses/justifies WH actions, behavior, affair," Powerful truth here...his choices are his. Good truth to have.

"• Don't tolerate / forgive easily lies / stealing" You don't really forgive lies, stealing, cheating, easily...we cover them up and conspire to forget them. They aren't forgettable, either...we just bury all our junk, piling it up for later...remind you of a physical habit you have?

"• Trust has to be earned" Actually, trust is given when it is earned in the eyes of the bestower. Nothing wrong with having conditions met before you place your trust in another. You need to earn your own trust, Tgal...there is where your most needed to do for you list begins.

"PS -- Oops! Forget to mention that on way back with WH from family reunion, that I got upset,calmly, but sure still LBs I said his taking OW to meet family was disrespectful to me, & hurt me lot, especially since I understood was saying our situation was my fault; that after year should be able to choose..." This is important and I'm not getting it. Are you saying that you said to WH and MIL that you believed him taking OW to meet family was disrespectful? And then what...I got lost.

Great to see you and hear from you. Good job on the exposure at Easter weekend. And speaking truth in the car on the way back.

LA

Hi!

Lots going on..learned this morning that my job assignment
here will end next Wed., May 10...not what
needed today...really down today.
Need prayers, please.
Will try to give more detailed update later today
or at home this evening-provided T-storms aren't so
bad they run me off computer!

Hope you are having a great day!

Already in prayers and thoughts...will up the amperage.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Part 1

Lot has happened in weeks since Easter – extremely stressful, hectic, productive & enlightening.

House Restore Project: New electrical box installed
New ac/heat unit installed – attic unit moved for better air flow & doing so created more storage space within ez access to attic stairway, all new sealed ducts, 2 additional air vents added to Den for total of 3 to provide better air flow with high ceiling, along with all new grills vents in all rooms, new return air grill, both which make look better, and a digital programmable thermostat, which enables temps to be set higher than with old unit while still keeping comfortable & conserving energy !

It has rained Friday night & Saturday last few weekends, so postponed some of things needed to do.
With daughter’s help have gotten most all Xmas stuff sorted, & stuff keeping put in storage containers we got half price, but need about 4 more to complete.
We’ve also sorted thru several of boxes took out of attic. Trying to decide best size containers for storing stuff keep. Feels really good to make some progress at last !

Hoping rain lets up today soon enough to go & price plywood, doors, locks, etc. for next step.
Need plywood to deck the attic for storing stuff & especially need door to replace door from house to garage as present one does not shut leaving about 1” gap/opening for air leak..not to mention security!

This week has really been stressful..at times almost felt was at breaking point…
As at work under time crunch to get all paper work done for VISA’s for group of guys to travel out country next week…when some are traveling so unable to get some paper signed need & had their passport, etc needed to start process of getting VISA…I’m expected to get them in week even though normally takes 2-3 weeks !!

Wednesday got home from work, fixed dinner & watched TV w/ son & his friend. After movie watched was over, another of his friends came by & all 3 went outside. I was preparing things to go to bed, when one of son’s friend’s came in house saying I needed to call 911 as my son was having a seizure! I called 911 while going outside to check , son was at end of driveway in street, ambulance seem to take forever..& while waited call WH who was out of town on business. ( WH said he was sorry I had to deal w/ alone !) After ambulance took son to ER, I got dressed & drove to hospital where spent hours waiting for tests; finally released him at about 4:30am Thursday to come home. After being up 24+ hours straight, no way could focus on work or able to sleep!
I strongly suspect that despite fact son had seizure in Jan last year,from taking & then stopped taking Zantex (sp?) cold turkey that is what happened this time as well. Combined with his not sleeping, eating properly and trouble with mother of his child. Will take few days, but he will get around to telling me what happened. I did tell WH about this that as his father felt he should know.
WH called me Thursday am, to find out how son was – he is cut & scraped up pretty bad on his face, arms & legs from being on concrete. Although WH also called yesterday AM to check and again in afternoon to let me know he was on his way back into town, did not come by to see son nor has he called him!. Know it’s DJ, but WH is in his “avoid it & it will go away” mode.

Then when went to work yesterday, only to learn that my assignment/job would end next Wednesday! Doesn’t seem to be end!


I did realize dealing w/ this was that when I am scared like was I get angry…
Also at one point that like WH I would like to run away & not deal w/ it..but chose to stay try to figure way to deal with & figure out my feelings, emotions, etc. Felt resentment that had to deal w/ alone, that son again chose to take drugs knowing what would do..etc.
Did feel strong that I was able , with God’s help (most like HE carried me) to withstand and not fall apart.

To be continued…

"doing so created more storage space"

Uhm, Tgal? This could be a BAD thing. LOL!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So you have progress on the house...tremendously good stuff...and daughter is helping, you are making decisions on stuff and reaping the benefits...and proud that you know you achieve at work, though they end your contract...you take with you the knowledge of competency, correct?

And you got inside yourself enough to see why WH is a CA...feels good...however, you stay present because your fear of not being present is greater than the fear to run away...and that there wasn't anything at all to deal with...but to BE present, correct?

This is your son about him, not you. His choices. Your choice to be present...feel your own emotions, don't distract in your thoughts to decisions which aren't yours...and the resentment will abate. You are capable and whole...nothing more required of you when you got to the hospital than to listen and know, be a witness and a presence...and Tgal? That's a heckuva lot...considering the urge to run, right?

No one-upping over WH...no judgment on him....let his choices be choices...do not take those into yourself...they corrode you, not him...these silent DJs...your expectations are bolstering your judgments and building your own resentments.

You were there. You stayed present. Your fear of falling apart would be something good to look at...what it looks like to you...because I have experienced God being present the most when I am truly in pieces...broken open wide. No shame. Learning how to let him into all of me without being in pieces came after that experience...

LA

You're right.."doing so created more storage space" could be a bad thing..will make choice not to let it & just at as being better place to put Xmas decorations so easier for me to get on my own, without having to have help! ;o)

Yes, I know I am good at what I do. Also doing best I can to stay in present, with no expectations of/for future, to trust that if God brings me to it, He will see me thorough it & remember that always in past when door has shut, window always opened elsewhere that was better!
Beginning to believe all this is His way of telling me I need to have more faith, lean on Him & His promises instead of human substitute, find & go back to church ???!!!
Does feel good when I let go of being scared, the fear, etc.
Was aware of resentment, judgement of WH as was experiencing feelings, thoughts,..moments of holding on to them & letting them go...

Being with daughter has been so much fun! Making progress with dejunking feels great & inspires me to keep at it & do more!

"Your fear of falling apart would be something good to look at...what it looks like to you."
Not sure understand what I'm to look for..???

Thanks for being you & for your patience with me on this journey..
I feel I'm beginning to be alittle stronger most time, but have long way to the goal line...I need to have patience with me as well, which is hard lesson for me..eager to get to same place you are... I take alittle longer to "get"/understand your advice.."to everything there is a season" .. ya' think!

lst B'day party for my great granddaughter is this evening.
Should be fun, if rain stops in time.
Thanks again. Have a great afternoon!

What does "falling apart" look like to you? What image do you see...what would happen if you fell apart?

Oh, great grandaughter...did you know I'm gonna be a grandma in December? I think I forgot to tell you!

I'm in your place, same as you, Tgal...the present. We all are. Know that...no finish lines or roads...all is now...so you know you aren't alone, ever.

Yes, God brings his message to you all the time...you're opening to it and really getting it...I believe, because you faced your fear...lived it...what if H left...so that God could get in....great insight on yourself.

Patience with self? Hey, ACCEPTANCE of self. What you've feared most...brings patience.

Pleasure being here with you is half mine...thank you, also...for coming back, sharing, and being you. You ripple around the world, Tgal. Know that.

LA

Congrats on being Grandmother! It's great..get to play with them, spoil 'em, & then give 'em back! Not to mention seeing the "mommy curse" in action! LOL!
"What does "falling apart" look like to you? What image do you see...what would happen if you fell apart?"
Have to give this some thought..

Both may be in the present -here & now, but you are better knowing how / at handling it or whatever correct word should be..what your beliefs, truths, etc are...that's what I am aiming to be. Acceptance of myself will take time..lot of old habits to replace, etc.
Even learning to listen to God, have to overcome my fear..that will listen to wrong voice..

Find there is healing, strength and alot to learn by coming back here, sharing myself overcoming my fear to do so, ..
so guess if honest is selfish in lot ways. Want to get to where I can help others as I have been helped.


BTW - did I mention that SIL's husband told her few days after Easter he wanted divorce in the middle of them selling their business & has been really verbally abusive?
Told about this site, but she said she'd not ready yet.
TxGal

Know that you have been and continue to help others with every honest post. Stop judging what help is...sharing is far more helpful than "help."

You're doing that. Your choice. Your risk...and sharing anyway.

Wow, you really hit a lifelong fear in yourself...listening to the wrong voice. Why not write down what your thoughts are...what you hear...to see where they come from? Past statements by past and present people...until you listen to them, not act from them, they don't get out of the way...fear brings them to you, over and over again...work on the fear. That's packaged into acceptance of being human, doing damage, doing greatness, all of it...and accepting yourself.

Fear.

Not your enemy...part of who you are...have you seen the exercise on posters are doing under "SJAJ & LA'S OWNING ALL YOUR VILLAGERS" thread?

Thank you for the congrats on grandmahood.

When you will believe in yourself, you'll know that you cope instead of live, handle instead of feel, and then you'll be present, with me. You will. I promise. All this is just realizing what already is...God's design recognized. No fixing yourself.

LA

"Know that you have been and continue to help others with every honest post. Stop judging what help is...sharing is far more helpful than "help."" Judging is one habit really have to work on..never thought that just by my posting what

• I honestly thought, felt, etc. would/could help others..although I've been helped just by reading & seeing myself in post by others...lightbulb moment !

"Wow, you really hit a lifelong fear in yourself...listening to the wrong voice. Why not write down what your thoughts are...what you hear...to see where they come from? Past statements by past and present people...until you listen to them, not act from them, they don't get out of the way...fear brings them to you, over and over again...work on the fear. That's packaged into acceptance of being human, doing damage, doing greatness, all of it...and accepting yourself.
Fear.
Not your enemy...part of who you are...have you seen the exercise on posters are doing under "SJAJ & LA'S OWNING ALL YOUR VILLAGERS" thread?"

• Will check this thread out!

• I have believed that fear is my enemy since at times I'm so afraid that I am stopped from doing anything, just focused on fear.

Okay, I need a Tgal check-in...

Been cleaning out rooms...rearranging rooms...getting new carpet and now DH wants to put cabinet doors over our in-wall bookcase in the bedroom.

Does it end? He's talking about redoing the kitchen...

Oy!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I'm exhausted and thinking of you...and yes, we began in the garage and it has made all the difference.

(A little Robert Frost steal there.)

LA

Checking in, as requested..better late than never, hun!?
Don't have any time at this new job assignment to check MB as keep me really busy & it's much more physically demanding than what I've done in quite awhile -blessing day goes fast,& curse that has caused my herniaed (sp?) disk in my neck to act up... so barely have enough energy to fix supper, take bath to release pain in my neck, shoulders & arm. Not too mention the added stress of longer drive & lots more traffic! Haven't even felt like reading!

Had some really bad days - mentally & emotionally lately,
barely able to hold it together & do what must do.
Finally venturing into some of what I believe are truths..
alittle peaks at time is all mind will allow, before
shuts down. Really upset with myself for believing WH words instead of his actions. Have been working on exposure letter to send to his immediate& out state family & all of sq dance groups know WH/OW dance at (most will get email of letter. Have had trouble trying to get the right words on paper; looked for example here, but haven't found any.
so will post before sent as do not it to sound like jealous, jitted wife want to keep as much dignity, self respect as possible!
Not sure will get much support from WH family as they tend to avoid getting involved, but at least hope to let them know my side of truth.


Latest is that WH & OW are gone for week in your state for sq dance vacation.

Have really miss ya' & your words of advise, insight, experience & wisdom..not to mention your humor!

Thanks for caring & hanging in w/ me..

Hanging with you is a privilege, Tgal...

Thank you for the update.

Where is the SQ dance vacation so I can go and have a few words?

I'm willing to travel.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Exposure letter..."Dear SQ associates, Mr. Blank is my husband. He and Ms. Blank having been having an affair for two years. I wanted you to know this truth and that I want to save my marriage. I can't do that without exposing this truth. I am asking for your help by not believing that they are only partners and friends. I believe marriage is between two people...and when one partner puts another person before their spouse, they destroy the marriage.

Thank you. Tgal."

Done.

Mailed. What if your herniated disk in your neck is where your fear sits and mulls...cowers into a hard knot, causing you pain to protect you, freeze you, cow you...for your own good? And it's not good. Soothing, coping with it might just validate it, instead of releasing it...

You have fear. It's yours...holding it, owning it and knowing it for what it is and acting in spite of it teaches you that your desire is to live in truth, from love, not fear.

Your dignity and self-respect only depend on you, Tgal. Not others. Respect others to think, feel and believe what they will...you have no control, nor would you really want that control, would you? If you had that power, then you would be controlled, against your will, wouldn't you?

You've lived a surviving life...and I think you want a thriving one. What do you think?

LA

My draft exposure letter to SqD's for your comments, corrections, suggestions, etc.

"Dear SQ associates,

• Most of you know my husband of almost 40 yrs., WH and his “just friend / dance partner”, OW are having a improper, inappropriate adulteress affair,
  In fact they are together in Fun Valley this week and will be attending the upcoming National’s in San Antonio together well.
  
  My silence of the past was honoring my word to my husband’s request , that silence not only enabled their affair to continue, but made it appear that I approved / condoned their continuing affair.
  
  I love my H even after all the pain & hurt caused, and believe & took our marriage vows / promise made before God, friends & family very seriously, therefore I am willing to do whatever takes to save our marriage, which includes exposing these truths and making them known.
  
  
  Since majority of sqd’s attend regularly & are active in church, would like to ask for your help & prayers and to not believe they are only just friends & dance partners. I believe marriage is between two people and when one partner puts another person before their spouse, they destroy the marriage."

(using my editor's pen)

"Dear SQ associates,

Most of you know my husband of almost 40 yrs., WH and his “just friend / dance partner”, OW. They are having an affair. They are together in Fun Valley this week and will be attending the upcoming National’s in San Antonio together well. They have been in this affair for two years.

My silence of the past was my choice, believing I was honoring my word to my husband’s request. I not only enabled their affair to continue, but made it appear that I approved of it. I now know there is no honor in bad promises.

I love my H. I believe in our marriage vows made before God, friends and family. I am willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage, which includes exposing these truths and making them known.

Since majority of sqd’s attend regularly and are active in church, I am asking for your help and prayers from all of you. I believe marriage is between two people; when one partner puts another person before their spouse, that is an affair.

Thank you for considering my truth and request."


How's that? You rock! I was inserting exactly what you said in one paragraph...and then I read it in the next!

Great job, Tgal...

LA

Lookin' for an update...an hello...anythang? (If I post with a Texas accent, will you let me know how you are?)

LA

Update on how things are going for me...

Have to admit, got cold feet & didn't expose to square dancers! Really wasn't right mental state to handle results.

I really believe visit from my DD & friend was sent from God to rescue me on Saturday,June 26. I really was at the end of my rope, barely hanging on by thread & only thing kept me going was knowing she were coming, so had to pull myself together to be there for her, who in my opinion had/was going thru worse phase in life than me...made me feel rather petty!

I went to Dr on July 3. Got several RX's renewed -antidepressant, & med's for my neck. Also had pain in my leg when sitting or bent it certain way ..which I thought was from lifting,/doing things shouldn't but had to do ..Dr said most likely my lower back. since then not improved & only way I can sit is to take Alieve every 10-12 hours. Dr also told me he is 85-90% sure that the place on my nose is skin cancer, but not the really bad kind & recommended skin Dr. Also, wants me to schedule tests for heart scan, ultrasound doppler for my neck arteries, & chest X-ray. Called skin Dr & earliest can get appointment is end of October !

On Wednesday (19th) last week after work, I treated myself to manicure & pedicure, so didn't get home until after 7pm. Son wasn't home, but came in shortly after..while he was waiting for phone call before leaving again, he had another seizure! This was seemed worse than other two he's had & lasted longer.
I was alone, scared I called WH & totally lost it while talking with him & then 911. Son had come out of it by time paramedics arrived & refused going to hospital, as just cost money as don't really do anything except run blood/drug test & observe.
While WH was on his way to house, he called & we talked...I told him that I couldn't handle things way they are with son anymore; - too much stress on daily basis, wondering if/when he will have another one.
(Thought he'd learned from other seizures, but should have realized that with threat of his car being repossed, etc. he'd take Zanex (sp?) drugs again!)
Maybe next time when he's driving with/without his daughter... that wanted to wait few days, then give son choice to straighten up, get honest job,-not selling drugs out of the house, do more to help out than just take out garbage twice week etc. or live elsewhere, with his Dad or ??? & that if he (WH) didn't continue helping pay for household expenses I'd deal with it., At this point, WH said something like he didn't want to lose me over his son!!!???? That is was still "our" house. We both agreed need to have a straight heart to heart talk w/ son. Will remind him this week & try to set date. Also will inform WH that need to get better security at house, broken windows fixed, door to garage fixed/replaced so can install dead bolt lock & be able to lock it & have alarm system reinstalled & monitored.

Haven't made alot of progress with de-cluttering house..no energy - totally disgusted with myself!!

bump up

Hi, TGal...

I'm sorry to hear about your health and I'm glad you're looking after it.

I want to ask you a sincere question--what is your payoff in waiting? I know you have one...that wasn't sarcasm. Can you find it? Waiting on WH...on your son...yourself...

I am not talking about fixing your life--rather, enforcing your boundaries. Making your boudnaries and then enforcing them.

I guess I'm getting back to the respect issue...respecting your WH for the choices he's making...your son...yourself...to wait is to choose not to do...to do another time...as if there were no motion, nothing happening...when there is...isn't there?

I care about you...helping yourself is what you were here for...to see your life as it truly is...to get clarity...and it's okay if you feel like you're back at the beginning, again...maybe that is where you need to be, where God comes in...and I didn't see anything about your emotional health...unless you meant the stress to be all encompassing...stress physically, emotionally, mentally or spiritually?

My desire has been for you to have this clear voyage, where you see everything, and know you're choosing it...what's yours?

LA

Hi, LA

The sincere question in your last post made me do some really deep serious thinking/searching...while didn't find answer , " what is your payoff in waiting?" do feel I've found places to help me find the answer & begin journey. ( If you know answer please provide if)

Also in your last post stated...."helping yourself is what you were here for" --I need to clarify this..I actually came to MB site for magic pill, etc. to get my WH back & save my marriage, not to "fix/help myself" as didn't think I needed that! You have shown me that I do need it & that I need to take care of myself first..just taken me this long to agree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> imagine that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to you know that I need to work on boundaries so ordered the book & workbook "Boundaries" by Cloud/Townsend
(have ones for marriage,but think these may be better for me when I am at moment)
Someone sent me book entitled " What To Do When Your Spouse Says 'I Don't Love You Anymore'" by David Clarke, PhD. based on Matthew 18.
I'm also rereading "The Dance of Anger"
While trying to dejunk/declutter house, remembered & found site that's really helped me..Flylady.net...with plan of action.

Another site that looks like will be helpful is Joy2meu.com
that I strongly identify with even though don't agree with some of his beliefs..it does deals/explains with alot of things you have mentioned.

You are right..I do feel like I'm back at the beginning, again...where I need to be, God has put me. In some ways, I have come a long way & others not moved at all.

My emotional health is better, thanks to AD's & my mental health as I realize what I do/do not control over, get house in order, if very, very slowly, it's OK.

Hope I've made some sense.
I value you & your thoughts,questions,insights, etc. and know I will be posting my questions, thoughts, etc wanting you advise, feedback, etc..

Thanks for caring & being here..means alot to know you are here with me look forward to you reply

^^^^^^ Bump ^^^^^

(((Tgal!)))

How great to see you again. Great to hear you're in a healthy emotional and mental place. And I'm grateful you came back here...'cuz I missed you.

We've been making progress ourselves in the decluttering of our house...and seeing you here again reminds me I, too, have a ways to go.

We got new carpet throughout (great way to get a lot of stuff out, I think), except I still have some boxes I put stuff in that I need to unload and reload with an eye to getting rid of it.

How's your bodily health? Your neck and energy levels?

LA

I'm bumping this time...

I'm in my DH's Broncos sweatshirt, my sign of support, while he's upstairs with YS having a raucous time (from what I hear)...hoping you'll come back soon and post.

After the game, we're off to get haircuts, spend UA time...and I don't think I'll be back here until tomorrow morning.

So, a bump...a long, windy one...for you, Tgal.

And me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

06 1202 Post to LA

LA...

Hope you are doing OK...you are in my prayers.

This , which is will bring you almost up to date on my journey. I am a work in progress.

As I said - have lot to tell you about my journey; what has been revealed to me & I have learned - not sure where to start so will just jump in, hoping that we both can make sense of it! I am still processing most of it ! Bear with me, please!
( might want to get your favorite beverage,& find comfortable chair, before going any further -Ha!Ha!)

As you know last 2 yrs ( as of 12/18/06 ) have been the most trying & difficult for me - came very close to losing it, having nervous breakdown or whatever want to call it.
Struggled with "why"; "what I did/didn't, should've/shouldn't have done, etc".
From start felt God's hand on it. knowing that everything happens for reason, & in God's timing, but unable to understand,& being very impatience!.

In beginning trying to find answers, I believe it was Him that finally lead me to website, where I learned that WH had almost all signs of being in Mid-life crisis, even down to things he said was like he was reading from a script!
Believe very strongly in marriage vows I took & since told this was about him, not me, decided I would stand & try all I could to save, restore marriage & if ended would have to be WH that did it - wouldn't be on my head.
Websites referred to others with more information & Christian guidance /advice - most all of which advised working on & taking care of me! Another thing that all I read said was that was no excuse / justification for affair that I needed to figure & own what/how I contributed
To me this was saying that in some way this was my fault, I caused it, etc. Well I could NOT believe that ! [ I now understand that I did contribute ]
To my thinking if he had problems he should have stated them in way that was easy & clearly be understood, but he hadn't. In fact still refuses to discuss with me as well as denying that WH & OW are anything but "just good friends/dance partners" "!
Another that several advised was exposing the affair to family, friends, etc. but since I had promised WH I would not discuss with others, so felt must honor my promise. After learning about exposing, I prayed that if / when was what God wanted that He show me that it was according to His word. Shortly after that I got book entitled, "What To Do When Your Spouse Says, 'I Don't Love You Anymore'"by David Clarke, Ph.D. with advise / action plan based on Matthew 18 & especially verses 15-20. Now I prayed that if this was His will He provide me with the words

Despite this advice - continued trying to figure out & look for answers - some "magic pill" to restore his love for me & marriage

One thing that really took my mind off it all & I was/am really excited about - was us wanting to get house back as like it was when moved in.
Only really been last few months that I have been taking all that advise - to work on & take care of me !

However, even though I am good at analyzing what needs to be done & organizing it into steps - when I thought about what all needed to be done was just overwhelming & I didn't know where to start so became paralyzed, doing very little or nothing & becoming very frustrated!
Again I believe God lead me to website called "FlyLady" end of July.
[ see enclosures for brief description of her system / ideas or if have chance check out website at FlyLady.net then on left hand side of site click on & read all of "Why Fly" & browse "Table of Contents"]
(FLYing - stands for Finally Loving Yourself" which I need to do!)
I identified with almost she said immediately, seeing & understanding myself in ways hadn't before. ..Especially after reading her book "Sink Reflections" & also one that was bases & helped her develop her system, " Side Tracked Home Executives - SHE's" b

Admit not done near as well as could/should, as still have trouble with procrastination /perfectionism ,but am working on it.
Trying to remember "I CAN do anything for 15 minutes!" & actually do it !! Have to as Thanksgiving is just little more than 2 weeks away & will need to have dining room/table cleared out !!

I had prayed for help w/ DS. Knew I needed some boundaries, but no idea how to set them even after reading book on how, as didn't give step by step. In doing a search on line about something else as I remember, one of the results was "Joy2MeU" which peaked my curiosity. Over next few weeks read alot on site, identifying with alot said, but also having enough discernment to feel that wasn't God based even though man writing it was recovering drinker. Couple of articles on site were "Characteristics of Adult Children of Alcoholics & other Characteristics of Codependency.
both of which hit me right between the eyes. ( See enclosures with same titles - I highlighted ones that really seem to "speak" to me)

About this time I also was lead to another sites http://www.cloudtownsend.com/index.html dealing with Boundaries & other issues but in God based way.

Also, I had been praying that God would reveal to me what purpose was for this journey I'm on & why.
Answer came in truly unexpected way. One Saturday night there wasn't much on TV I found interesting or that I hadn't seen so was flipping thru channels & came to find Christian program with lady, Paula White saying we all had purpose & need to keep our focus on God. I immediately felt this was answer to my prayer of why ..I realized that I had put Terry ahead of God, worshipping him in alot of ways & was God's way of bringing me back to Him!

Shortly after that first night, DD called after I'd gotten home on Friday & wanted to go to Lakewood church to hear lady she had seen on TV - Joyce Meyers peach. We were few minutes late, but made it in time. Her talk that night was about how God speaks to us - that He rarely spoke to us in a audible voice which I admit I was wanting/expecting & something I'd prayed about.

I am not one to watch religious channels, but since that first night am drawn at different times to them & each time when watch have something important revealed to me that I needed &/or had prayed about.

Some of which is:
That I must put God first in my life daily
That we have no responsibility /control for/of anyone but ourselves! Never understood was what God wanted for us.
Our anger is usually signal that some thing is not right.
I had always believed in the Golden Rule - "do onto others as you would have them do unto you"... that's what I expected from others & that is not what it says.
I must forgive & thank WH before I can move on; learn more

I am better mentally most days but do take antidepressants when feel need for them, without feeling crazy or guilty.
Physically had have alot of discomfort from my neck/shoulders helps when I can get someone to rub medicine on my neck & shoulders, but that isn't always possible so instead take pain medicine when needed.
Just before Thanksgiving learned I do have skin cancer on my nose & chin that will have to be removed.
I am trying very had to "let go & let God" as know from experience that He has never shut door that one hasn't been opened elsewhere that was to a better place...just have to keep reminding myself of it at times! Know that the fear, uncertainty is not from God.
To listen for His voice & heed His direction for path I am to take...that it be His will & not mine and in His timing.

I do feel at some point soon I will do several things as have already felt lead, to send WH series of letters depending on his response to each
1. admitting my part, forgiving him for his betrayal, adultery, lying, etc. & see if willing to get counseling ;etc.
2. asking him to agree to no contact with OW for 90Day trial to move back & to address some of the "petty & infantile" issues & our "few little problems" ;admit his affair, etc. for closure whether get back together or not;
3. written agreement for his to sign & have notarized stating all things he has said he would provide for me;
4. email letter to all square dancers/callers exposing his & Wendy's true relationship / affair;
5. email/letter to family exposing WH & OW's true relationship / affair, with proof & how I feel about their no contact with me after all years in family
just waiting for all right words which I believe will come when God's timing is right ( I've been given some of words already )

Will have Thanksgiving dinner here, but will be late, around 5-6pm since DD will have to work that day.
WH mentioned that family in Louisiana is trying to get Petsy (his mother) to go there for Thanksgiving, so no idea what their plans are
For most of last 28 yrs had Thanksgiving/Christmas here,& she would come weekend before to stay, visit & help.
Will let WH know my plans & he/his family are welcome if want to come, but I am not getting my hopes up or allow their plans to ruin day for me & kids!.

I found website called FreeCycle which is nationwide with group in Humble/Kingwood. Their purpose is :
about keeping things out of the landfill.
giving away something that has no use in our life anymore to someone who could extend its usefulness a little longer.
about giving as gifts to people while clearing out our own clutter.
about creating, building, and sustaining an environmentally aware community.
Offering Items We No Longer Need to Those Who Need Them
One main rule: Everything posted must be free, legal, and appropriate for all ages
So I'm excited about finding site as won't have to pay to have alot of stuff from my decluttering/dejunking stuff hauled off & will go to someone who wants it & can use it!

Also excited & very impatience about getting house ready for Holidays. Just need to stay off computer & get my fanny moving 15 minutes at time!! Most of all remember that it won't happen overnight !

Already started on some - the top oven (bigger of two) hasn't worked in last few years. Told WH need to get it fixed & had a time limit in my mind & when WH didn't meet it had it replaced. Also want to get new white or stainless steel range vent hood over stove top range to replace the awful avocado green one have now!]

Bought new light fixtures for over vanity in hall bath & new faucet for sink. Also. will get light fixtures for master vanity & 2 up floor lamp for each side of bed ( $8.00 each at Wal-Mart !).
Will ask him to install new faucet along with new dead bolt & door knob got for front door before Thanksgiving, which he hasn't mentioned or done so will arrange to have those done before Christmas as well &( unless he specifically ask will not give him a new key)
Would also like for him to take his recliner as think would make easier to rearrange furniture in living area. If doesn't take it will think about selling it & using money toward new oven/vent hood or maybe something else.

Also after holidays want to fix up master bedroom for me.
Looking into seeing if can get regular mattress to fit in wood bed frame to replace waterbed mattress have now that is old & needs replacing. Think regular mattress would be better for my neck, shoulders & back. Already got several sets new sheets, comforter, bath rugs, hand towels, etc. Will just wash drapes have now & hope they hold together until I can get to dejunking/decluttering my craft room so can get to sewing machine & make new curtains for it. I was alittle discouraged about my lack of progress with this for holidays, until I realized that I had in fact managed to get the 3 major living areas & main bath done. ( have few bags of stuff that need to take to donate, then are done) Will still need to do detailed dejunking/decluttering in areas hidden, like desk drawer, kitchen drawers, pantry, end tables, etc. but have accomplished way more than I thought!!! I am proud of myself !!!

For while now each week have been trying to buy at least one item off my "Want/Wish list" for house. Now also adding a Christmas gift of two as well. Figure that way won't be such big chunk spent all at once!

As you might have figured out by now, I have just about come to terms with fact that WH is mostly likely NOT coming back. Admit that isn't what I still hope/pray for, but I must go on with life & make best of it. Prepare for worst, but hoping & praying for best!"
Try to take each day as it comes & live each to fullest & best I can.
Work on myself & my relationship with God!
Presently reading Boundaries & Boundaries-Face to Face, which are big help

As always, looking forward & want & hope for your comments, suggestions, and criticism, whatever.
Just hope all by babbling & rambling has made alittle bit of sense.
I learned from little book given to me while back that my coping style is both by mulling things over privately & then talking them out, so since don't have anyone nearby I trust to talk them out with ( except DD & not fair to burden her) this is next best way I have of doing that...letters to myself !!

Have wonderful evening!

Up, Up, Up !!!!

Hiya, TGal!

Great to see you again.

Our lives are coinciding, too...we are refinancing and the appraiser is coming tomorrow...so we're clearing out more stuff, too.

LOL

I think it's fantastic that you pulled together the resources you needed to help you rearrange, act for your own desire (the house)...and post here again.

I would greatly enjoy you sharing what you're learning about boundaries...would help many, I believe, and me.

I can't believe you have been sleeping on a waterbed this whole time...I never thought to ask...but yes, I believe you'd do your spine a great favor in replacing THAT item.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Might even get some great dreams out of it.

As far as WH helping out with the house repairs...please stop asking. You hire someone to fix the upper oven...if it's too much and you want to replace it, you decide. Send a copy of the bill to WH. Same for all the other stuff. Because when he says he will and doesn't, he's choosing not to...don't keep asking, expecting, and getting that whole disappointment and resentment cycle continued. Break it.

You are seeing your own power...and I believe that's what you have not seen all your life...God gave you, TGal, this power...and has gently, relentlessly, brought you around to it again and again...until you got what he gave all of us, so you can connect directly to him, intimately and joyously.

Have you made inroads on seeing where you reject yourself and feel that rejection through WH? How about acceptance?

Did I miss in your update where DS was residing now?

And why would you think you sharing who you are with your DD would ever be a burden?

You're beautiful, TGal...get to know your own beauty, 'k? See every act you've been taking to learn and find out...connect your own dots...as an act of love for yourself, your life...acknowledge and praise yourself, too, TGal...so self knows you're aware and full of love, acting on your choice to love.

Can you make it part of your goal to act from your love to consistently post these letters to yourself? And re-read them...to ferret out the self-judgment, the sneaky put downs and understand what you do to yourself? You're gonna be loved, anyway.

I know you know that. What happened with the plan to find an IC or an MC who does IC, too?

Are you singing while you do your plans in the house? Are you putting on beloved music and dancing your way through your craft room?

I'm picturing that and smiling for you. Now, I'm going to go do a bit of cleaning for myself...and the judge coming tomorrow...I know he's not a judge...but...what the heck.

Oh, and we're refinancing back to 30yr loan on the house...we refi'd two years ago when we were going to divorce...so I'm delighted to do this...to dance my way through...and yes, I'll be groaning from my stiff back when I bend over, and then chuckling at my own groan as I straighten back up.

Heehee...back up.

You are living today, TGal...you are. All yours, today...every day. Find your joy, admire yourself...love that proud of yourself sentence you wrote...know your own changes...relish them...because you're worth it. You always have been...and you're getting closer with each choice to knowing it into your own bones.

LA

"I would greatly enjoy you sharing what you're learning about boundaries...would help many, I believe, and me"

Yes, I'll share what I'm learning about boundaries - so far I've learned that at some point I gave up / let go of mine since too upsetting, frustrating to enforce them. Since I've been reading "Boundaries" & "Boundaires -Face to Face" whenever I've had alittle free time , so will need to read 'em again when can truly concentrate on material. So far the main thing I am learning is that I have NO CONTROL OF or RESPONSIBLITY FOR / TO anyone but my self !! For me this is HUGE !!! Maybe I'll start new thread " TxGal's Boundaries Lessons Learned" --what you think ???

"I can't believe you have been sleeping on a waterbed this whole time"
No, I've slept on twin size bed/sofa w/ regular mattress since light sleeping H, kept waking up
due to my snoring.

In some of web surfing found these & had really profound "Aha" moment...these are some things I feel I really need to work on.....it was wonderful to realize & understand alot of things.

My Characteristics of Adult Children of Alcoholics & Codependency
*Isolation, fear of people, and fear of authority figures.
*Difficulty with identity issues related to seeking constantly the approval of others.
*Frightened by angry people and personal criticism
*Perpetually being the victim and seeing the world from the perspective of a victim.
*An overdeveloped sense of responsibility-doing "right" thing. Concerned about the needs of others to the degree of neglecting my own wants and needs. This is a protective behavior for avoiding a good look at myself and taking responsibility to identify and resolve my own personal difficulties.
*Feelings of guilt associated with standing up for your rights. It is easier to give into the demands of others
*guess at what normal is
*judge themselves without mercy.
*have difficulty having fun.
*take themselves very seriously.
*overreact to changes over which they have no control.
*constantly seek approval and affirmation.
*feel that they are different from other people.
*are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that loyalty is undeserved.
*Low self-esteem. A tendency to judge myself harshly and be perfectionistic and self-critical.
*Strong dependency needs and terrified of abandonment
*Afraid that others will find out what I am are really like, etc.
*Tendency to react to things that happen versus taking control and not being victim to the behavior of others or situations created by others.
*A chameleon. A tendency to be what others want you to be instead of being yourself. A lack of honesty with yourself and others.
*My good feelings about who I am stem from being liked by you and receiving approval from you
*If I am not aware of something, I assume (I don't ask or verify in some other way).
*My fear of your anger and rejection determines what I say or do
*As I involve myself with you, my social circle diminishes
*guess at what normal is
*judge themselves without mercy.
*have difficulty having fun.
*take themselves very seriously.
*overreact to changes over which they have no control.
*constantly seek approval and affirmation.
*feel that they are different from other people.
*are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that loyalty is undeserved.
**Exhaustion: Allowing yourself to become overly tired. Not following through on self-care behaviors of adequate rest, good nutrition, and regular exercise. Good physical health is a component of emotional health. How you feel will be reflected in your thinking and judgment.
**Impatience: Things are not happening fast enough for you. Or, others are not doing what you want them to do or what you think they should do.
**Argumentative: Arguing small insignificant points which indicate a need to always be right.
**Depression: Overwhelming and unaccountable despair may occur in cycle. If it does, talk about it and deal with it. You are responsible for taking care of yourself.
**Frustration: With people and because things may not be going your way. Remind yourself intermittently that things are not always going to be the way that you want them.
**Self-Pity: Feeling like a victim, refusing to acknowledge that you have choices and are responsible for your own life and the quality of it.
**Complacency: Not working with the commitment that you started with. Having a little fear is a good thing..
**Expecting Too Much From Others: "I've changed, why hasn't everyone else changed too?" You can only control yourself. It would be great if other people changed their self-destructive behaviors, but that is their problem. You have your own problems to monitor and deal with. You cannot expect others to change their lifestyle just because you have.
**Letting Up On Discipline: Daily inventory, positive affirmations, meditation, prayer. This can come from complacency and boredom. take responsibility-talk about it and problem solve it. Sometimes you must accept that you have to do some things that are the routine for a better life.


"Have you made inroads on seeing where you reject yourself and feel that rejection through WH? How about acceptance?"
I see where I reject myself, but not sure about "feeling that rejection thru WH".

"Did I miss in your update where DS was residing now?"
No didn't..he's still here Working slowly but surely on that for new year.

"And why would you think you sharing who you are with your DD would ever be a burden?"
I do share with her alot, but know she has her own issues, difficulties w/ her daughter right now. and I need to be there to listen, be her sounding board.
In fact as of yesterday - things got much worse for her, due to her bad choices --
A month or so ago she admitted she had problem w/ drinking/was an alcoholic, stopped drinking for several weeks, even going to AA meeting, but was discouraged w/ meeting as only old men, not very friendly, supportive, etc. Then this Friday night after been drinking drove car into tree, crushing bones in her right foot, which will need to be operated on [ no insurance] as well as splitting her nostril requiring stitches. Won't be able to walk w/o crutches for while, so doubt she'll be able to drive or work. Really mess!

"What happened with the plan to find an IC or an MC who does IC, too?"
Got put on the back burner for now until get skin cancer removed. In mean time am doing research to find a Christian based one that believes along lines of MB principles. & if insurance covers any of cost or will not be able to afford one.

"Are you singing while you do your plans in the house? Are you putting on beloved music and dancing your way through your craft room?"
You must have your ESP working as I do try to remember to put on music when I'm cleaning / dejunking/decluttering, as if I put TV I will sit & watch it instead of doing things need to do. [ Do same thing when I read or play on computer--do it to exclusion of everything else]
I love to sing, but alas, I sing so far off key am almost on key..so only do that when I'm alone in house. Ha!Ha!

Don't try to do it all at one time -- do it 15 minutes at time for 45 minutes, then rest for 15 minutes.
It's alot more fun that way, especially when see how much really do get done in just short time!
I have 3 containers - laundry basket, box, trash can or whatever line each w/ plastic bag & label them "Put Away", "Throw Away" & "Give / Donate Away" Other thing I do is take plastic trash bag & find 27 things to "Throw Away" & "Give / Donate Away" in 15 minutes! Try these - they've helped me alot! Goal is to have left only things that you love or make you feel good !!

I am so grateful & appreciate you LA ! Thanks for being such a blessing to me & other here!

What a delight it is for me to know you got to where your real responsibilty was...and you embraced it! Gives me a surge, again, like I had when I realized this...of freedom. True freedom.

And I vote for you singing loudly, off key, wrong words and all...as loudly as you want...so you can hear and embrace your own voice...catch yourself comparing what is truly, incomparable...great way to get oxygen into us, our soul exposed and rejoice in our ability to sing at all.

Then get to the point where even when DS is in the house, you sing...it is more acceptance and validation you do for yourself, for your family intimacy...than you can know yet...sharing who you are isn't about judgment...it's about the sharing.

I'm very much a fan of letters to myself...writings, journaling..blips. I have come to believe that what I share are statements...not sounding boards...because I, like you, very much spoke until I got to my point...aloud, to others. Now I make it more sharing...statements aloud of what I'm thinking about, feeling, believing and perceiving...total ownership is not a burden. Sharing does not wear down...I'm not asking for anything when I share...and that gets me in the mindset of not fixing when I'm shared with...the more I choose to do it, the less my fixer/pleaser tries to kick in.

I believe in the music when we are doing for ourselves, because music is connective...and when you're decluttering/sorting, you're doing that on the outside, in your environment, and I believe, on your inside as well...connecting to self...open to hearing your own thoughts, feeling your feelings (not trying to escape them or push them down...just to know them, trace them)...and discovering, not judging.

When will you get your skin cancers removed? I thought about that as I was cleaning my shower (where I went after I posted), and thought, "I neglected to respond to that." How do you feel? Got an idea of any fears? Sounds more like you know that these are common and as long as you stay vigilant, they aren't going to become something life-threatening. Another way to look at them is through awareness (upping it) and boundaries...letting the sun cross too much over into your own domain.

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I have some experience through co-workers with this...going along with them over the years through their removal, check up, upkeep...various ages, too. Much older than you and a little younger.

Sounds like you're doing much better with the internal sorting...seeing your DD's choices and consequences as separate from you, from your fixing, not removed from your empathizing...great chance to positively reinforce you KNOW she can handle this, how much you believe in her and remembering when you've made choices you didn't like the consequences for...and how you amended...

Please don't buy into her aversion for AA...because she was supposed to go to several different meetings her first week, to find for herself the group that resonated inside her...even if the first one did, right off...they advise and encourage exploring many different meetings. Have you considered Al-Anon, btw?

You're exploring your own stuff from being an adult child...I found Al-Anon as a great resource for these same things that you listed...and your relationship with your DD qualifies you to go, as well as your father or mother.

Now to priorities...seems like the house is way up there, your own health...so I asked about the IC because of priorities...would you consider selling the house, downsizing greatly, to just you, so you could afford the IC, the medical care you require and nights for Al-Anon time? Not watching tv really freed my life to live it when I was in crisis and even, when I was not...just wondered if you'd share with me what you really want, your heart's desires, and we could align them to additionally free you.

Good to know you weren't sleeping on the waterbed all this time! I'm all for replacing that bed. And taking back your own space in the master bedroom. It's yours.

I love your three-bag idea...sounds fun going for a goal of items in 15 minutes. I was just on my 15 minute break from my third 15 minutes today...oops, I hit the alarm and now it's 30 in my reply to you!! ROFL

And did you include a little gratitude to YOU for posting again? Hmmm? 'Cuz I gotta tell you...without you, I can't share with you.

LOL -- it's true!

I've missed you and wondered about you. Wondering if you're finding just how significant you really are...as is...not for your doing, believing or wishing...for your very being.

To address a lot of those things you're working on listed above, have you considered "Healing The Shame That Binds Us" by John Bradshaw?

And when you feel like lagging, breaking your goal schedule...would you please do 15 minutes for me? Picture me cheering you on, hugging and singing with you? Pretend I have a great soprano voice instead of my bumbling alto one...and I get the harmony, 'k?

((((TGal)))) I feel such joy in seeing you here again. Thank you!

LA