Precisely right. Do not think your are somehow not normal to feel this way. A's change every S's perspective on how they view their WS forever. I have strongly advocated this for a long time.
I must ask however, why have you allowed your WH to continue to teach at the same building as his former lover???
Harley advocates NC at whatever the cost might be. He should have changed jobs if necessary to have NC with former lover. Why did you not INSIST on this at the very least?
Your recovery has not gone well because you did not make this YOUR BOUNDARY! YOU SHOULD HAVE! HE OWES YOU THAT MUCH. You have accepted far less than what you were owed after discovery of the first affair!
BTW, there is no such thing as snoping after you have discoverd your WH in an A. You have every right to know the truth you are entitled to know from here on out. Your WH must accept that as part of the consequence of his A.
If one has nothing to hide, one hides nothing!!!!!!!
I do believe you pulled the trigger too soon on your evidence. I know your emotions got the best of you, but it would have been far better to wait for irrefutible proof before exposure. Now you have driven him futher underground
and it will be even harder to investigate the truth.
My main point to you is why do you allow continued contact between your WH and his Ow? This is exactly what DR H has adamantly said should never be allowed.
Please go back to MB main website and review DR H's suggestions. You have not follwed through on any of them. This is why your R has gone so poorly.
All Blessings,
Jerry

My WH did manage to go to ONE counseling session with me. At that time, he asked MC if he would have to quit his job and our MC said no. Not as long as he ended things with OW. Unfortunately, that was my demize. WH loves his job, he is great at it, and he wants to keep it. So, once he heard the MC say that he could keep it as long as he discontinued his A, it seemed OK. I KNOW that Harley says it is not possible, but my own MC said it could work. That is why I have tolerated it. I am not trying to just not follow through with things - I have been trying to do the best I can.

Obviously, it does not appear that it is working out for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I feel a bit better this morning. Just got back from church where I teach the 3-5 grade sunday school class. I learn so much from those kids and I enjoy every minute I get to spend with them. Our lesson today was about the consequences of sin and 'you reap what you sow.' It was thought provoking for me in light of my current situation.

Anyway, I agree that I probably screwed up by letting WH know what I found. I am very emotional about these things and I am not good at waiting or hiding things. In fact, I cringe at the thought of having to go through an entire week acting normal as I wait until Friday night to track where he goes. I deperately want to call somone and tell them about what I found and what I think I need to do. I don't think that is the right thing to do, though. I think I need to keep this totally to myself until I either find something or I don't. Do you agree? It is going to be SO hard for me...... I am already leaning toward that 'obsessive' state that I was in after finiding out about the A..... thinking of it overtakes every part of me all the time.

I know, I know...... even if I do not find an A, I do not want this marriage the way it is any longer. That is what brought me back the MB in the first place. I'll have to decide if I am going to Plan A again to try and get some progress going, or if I am going to move to seaparation. I guess I can't make that decision until I know if there is another OW or not, huh? Thoughts?

I worked so hard over the past few years and I can't believe that I find myself in this situation still. I feel like a failure/loser/doormat/settler. Not great for the esteem. In this state, I don't feel like I deserve better. I KNOW that I do, I just feel like maybe I made bad choices (like marrying him in the first place, and by not making him leave when I found out about the A, and by fighting so hard when it may have been a lost cause all along, and by allowing myself to trust him when he may have been carring on an A all this time anyway......) Like I am suffering the consequences of making bad choices, you know?

Jerry - my memory leads me to recall that most of Dr. Harley's suggestions are things that BOTH spouses have to agree to do for recovery to be successful. I enthusiastically agree, but WH will have no part of any of it. Where does that leave me? Also, what parts do you suggest that I read first?

Thanks so Much!!! WTW

WW, he doesn't say that. He does suggest that mutual, enthusiastic agreement is key to POJA. But you are not in recovery yet. We are trying to get you to that point. If there is an affair going on, busting it up will hopefully bring your H back to the marriage so you can begin recovery.

And I applaud Jerry for bringing up a serious impediment to recovery. We have other situations here where the BS did not insist on no contact where the affairs went on for years. Some are still in progress. But, no use crying over spilled milk, better late than never.

Did anyone answer your ? about GPS? Did you give some thought to hiring a PI?

I am still looking for an example of what kind of GPS to look for.

I am going to check a few PI places that I found in the phone book tomorrow and see what they tell me tomorrow.

I need a plan - I think that part of my whackiness right now is that I do not have one. OK - so I need to insist that WH and (former)OW do not work together. (Ironically, when the A finally ended 3.5 years ago, one of the things I was assured of by WH is that OW would be changing schools at the end of that year. The end of the year came and went and I checked to see if she actually did change. She didn't. I asked WH about it at that time and his answer was that he had no control over making her move schools and that he didn't know why she didn't end up moving. I let it go at that time because I believed that everything was OK for some reason. Hindsight is 20/20 - I can see now that was a mistake.)

Anyway, I can't insist that he change jobs right now. It would probably seem to come out of nowhere and would never happen.

So, what do I do RIGHT NOW? What kind of short term-plan do I focus on? That is what I am struggling with...... It seems like I have done so many things wrong (albeit with the best intentions) that I don't know what is right anymore. Ugh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WW, I think you can't make any long term plans until you find out the truth. You can't make plans without FACTS. So your only focus should be on finding out the truth right now.

THEN, when you have ruled an affair in or out, we can help you strategize. But all the plans in the world will be worthless without the key ingredients: FACTS.

I used an LAS 3100. Go to ebay and search for Land Air Sea - or LAS 3100.

Also, the company website - http://www.landairsea.com/

This device is designed just for this purpose, not for hikers to find the trail with.

-AD

Big red flags a flying for me wtw.I think he is cheating too.Sorry.

It's been too long post A for him to be acting this way and I agree,things should be improved,not the way they are now.

I hope you can get more precise info by the GPS.

Good luck with this.

O

AD -
Just curious - what did you find out when using the GPS?

Looks like I can get a LAS 3100 on ebay for a little under $300.00.

Do you guys think I should hire a PI for Friday night or get a GPS instead?

I doubt whether he will be doing anything this Friday. You have put him on high alert. You could be wasting your money on a PI, this week.

I would be checking his wallet, his pockets and his car on a daily basis. Check his wallet after he has gone to sleep.

This Friday, before he leaves, check the Milage meter on his car before he leaves and then check it again later in the morning. You will be able to work out, how many miles he has travelled. That wont tell you where he has gone, but it is a start.

Also, I would be going to my husbands work on a regular basis, during his lunch break just to say hello. I was in the area, and popped in to bring you this cake or whatever. If there is anything going on, he will not be happy about that. Is there any way, you can get work at the school. Do you know any of his fellow teachers who would tell you if something was going on.

I would be working towards your husband coming back to the marital bed. Do it gradually. Start by saying you have not been sleeping well. You are hearing noises during the night. It is frightening you. You need him. Ask him, can you sleep with me just for tonight because of such and such. Start off with one night at a time.

Good luck, I will be following your post.

Be careful and patient. You do not want to drive hime further underground. Going to the school, this week may not be a good idea. It is too soon after the pill incident.

I agree...since you just confronted him about the pills, he will be on guard and laying low for a few days. If you stay calm and cool about everything, he'll eventually think he's off the hook again.

Just a minute here.

Waiting, you’re acting as if you have to gather all this evidence in the next day and a half or the coach changes back into a pumpkin. I’ve just re-read all of your thread and I don’t see where there should be any arbitrarily assigned time limit. Frankly, if he’s never recommitted to the marriage and sought counseling, etc., then the problem has existed for four years and I'd counsel a little bit more patience. If there’s no reason to wrap this thing up immediately, can’t you back off a tiny bit and prepare to obtain what the military calls tactical intelligence?

For instance, before you go to the expense of hiring a PI or spending several hundred dollars on a tracking device, shouldn’t you try some of the low-tech, low-cost solutions first? You could, for instance, get a trusted friend to lend you a vehicle hubby doesn’t know. The same friend can watch the kids for a short time. You can drive to the place where he’s supposed to be on Friday nights and check to see if he is. If he’s not, that’s a datum you add to a journal you need to start. The next Friday, you can try to follow him. It might take several tries to find out where he’s actually going, if indeed, he’s going anywhere. Also, I don’t know where you live. You might check with Flukeboy’s thread.

What is he doing with that cell phone you say he takes out to the car. Is it going under the seat or just being locked inside. If it’s going into the glove box or under the seat, does it go under the driver’s side seat? If it goes under the driver’s side seat, you might consider sliding a small, voice activated tape recorder under the other seat. A bit of duct tape, doubled back on itself so the sticky side is exposed in a loop, will anchor the recorder securely enough so it won’t slide out. I have such a recorder I got from Radio Shack years ago (for another purpose) and I can vouch for their durability, and to the sensitiveness of the microphone. If he makes calls from the car, or has someone in the car with him, such a recorder will pick up VOLUMES of data to add to your first intel.

If he uses email, a keylogger is relatively cheap and they can be downloaded from the Internet. There are even some free ones out there. They will log everything he types into an email, any of the instant messenger programs, etc.

If you’re going to gather information yourself, I recommend you take some time to read Spying On Your Spouse, by Kelly Squires. It is a little dated (published in 1996), so it isn’t current on all the latest electronics, but it has excellent information you can use. Another one, written by a working private investigator, is 180 Telltale Signs Mates Are Cheating And How To Catch Them by Raymond B. Green. The title is a little imposing but it’s an easy read, as is the one by Squires. Both are available on half.com and/or Ebay for pennies on the dollar.

Waiting, one of the things that I got from the above books is that PIs come in all flavors and degrees of competence. (Some specialize in electronic surveillance, for instance, some concentrate on infidelity.) The industry is not well regulated in most states. Yours might be an exception; I don’t know. However, unfortunately, if you look for one relatively inexpensive, you might find one who is a “Magnum PI” wannabe who’s impatient with such a mundane case as yours. He won't give yours the attention it deserves. PIs, by the way, advertise in the yellow pages. There are lots of them around. Please be careful or you’re not going to be satisfied with the one you find.

Innocence had some good checks you can do without involving anyone else. Checking the mileage can be especially revealing. To those I would add calling him on a Friday night to ask a question, just to see if there are “card game” sounds in the background. Make up your own excuse. You can’t find your car keys, for instance, did he pick them up? Can he please bring home a loaf of bread, pick up that prescription, etc., etc., on the way home? It has to be a plausible reason, so think carefully before you call. You may have to actually run out of bread/milk to make it real. Even if he says no, the purpose of the phone call has been served. And...you can even "get mad" if he won't do as you ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These are just a few ideas that came to mind when I re-read your thread. I hope they are of use but they might not be. If you take nothing else from my post, I’d recommend the two short books I mentioned above. Good luck in all that you do.

Thanks for all the advice. I realize that I am running at breakneck speed now that my alert is up again. It is that feeling of "I need to know NOW." I have a hard time waiting.... I want a resolution NOW.

I feel even more stupid when I read your suggestions and realize how warped my situation is and how I have adapted to it as 'normal.'

I can't call WH when he goes to these poker games. He turns his phone off. Has for years. No way to contact him. I have been down the road of having issues with it - like what is something happened to one of the kids? how would he know?. But, there was an incident about a year after the A where a vindictive friend of OHW called me on a Friday night (yes, WH was gone) and told me that they were seen together that night. Needless to say I went hysterical, tried to track him down, left nasty phone messages on OW's #, etc. Ever since then, he claims that he called the poker guys with me on the other line, so I have all the proof that I need that he is there. I am not allowed to know names of these people, phone numbers, or where they live/play. I have no way to find out where he is except to follow him. I can't do it myself with two kids. Someone has to follow him from when he leaves our house because I have not the slightest clue where he goes.

The phone - he keeps it locked in his car and I don't have a key. He 'lost' the extra during the A. He didn't like me snooping and he would even hide his keys from me then. He does not hide them now, but he always locks his car. I can get it if I need to, but it is wierd that he won't give me a key. I did get a spare made at one point during the A, but I have since lost it. As long as I don't act wierd, I can probably still get it when I need to.

I have looked for another phone and have not found one.

His job - he has done a very good job of keeping me out. I don't know hardly any of the other teachers there. It is not close to where I work and our lunch breaks are not overlapping so 'stopping by' is not feasible. It is hard for me to justify risking a scene at his school - this is not something that the kids should be involved in. I don't want them to lose respect for him as a teacher. He teaches at a very 'hard' school in the rough side of town and those kids don;t need more drama.

I was just out running some errands and had some time to think. I believe that a GPS is probably the way to go. I can put it in his bumper and see where he goes. It would not be a one-time thing and since I have put him on guard, so it might take awhile to see what is going on.

He does not use the computer at home, so there is nothing to find out there. I wouldn't have access to his computer at school, so if he does use it there, I am out of luck. My guess, though, is that he does not use it.

I have thought about asking a friend to follow him on Friday night. I don't feel like I can do it because the kids would know that something was up. They are used to having 'mommy time' on Friday nights and there is the risk that they would tell WH that I was gone if I have someone stay with them. I might be able to arrange for them to spend the night with my parents or something, but that would put him on alert as well as get my family wondering. Then, I would still have to deal with the part about getting out right beind him. A friend could do it for me, but should I trust anyone with this? Plus, there is the risk that they would 'blow it' since they would not be experienced doing it.

The hard part right now is living here like everything is normal when I have all these thoughts and feelings inside that I have to hide. Do I risk tructing a friend or relative with my concerns yet? I have cried 'wolf' so many times with my parents that I am afraid to talk to them again without knowing anything concrete.

So, for now, do I just have to live here, be normal, and wonder what the h*ll is going on until I can find out? A daunting task......

Again, thank you so much for helping me. I would be lost without MB right now. I may not have handled things very well, but it would have been worse without you guys and gals.

As far as getting him back in my bed - it is a lost cause. I have tried EVERYTHING, believe me. He does not care that I am lonely or whatever. In fact, he has been known to promise me in the heat of the moment that he will sleep in with me if I will do SF favors that he wants. After he gets what he wants, he rescinds and goes back to the other room. He says he feels bad, but still goes........ Now, he only comes in for SF in the mornings so that he does not have to deal with that issue. In the morning, he HAS to get up to go to work.

Another reason that I hate this situation.

He does not care that I am lonely or whatever.

It is so sad that I have not put all these pieces together for so long. How can I be such an idiot?

I just find ways to make excuses for him......

Right now, part of me wants to find out that he is still having the A so I can just get out of this situation without being the one 'at fault.' I feel like I want out, but I don't want to be the one who makes that choice in case there is still some hope for something better. That is why I have stayed..... hoping for something better down the road. Something better for both me and our kids.

Is is warped to almost WANT to find an A? It sure would explain alot of things that I have not been able to explain myself. There would be a bit of releif in that.

Willing - Don't you think it's time YOU start taking control of this situation? You're begging for the crumbs that he's tossing your way and believing that that's all you deserve in a relationship.

It's time to start working on your self respect and realizing that you don't have to continue to live like this. Either the marriage has to change or your living arrangements need to. This is distressing stuff to read. You're so hungry that you'll take whatever he throws your way and it is costing you a lot personally to live like that.

Ugh,

Wtw,how is this life working for you because it is disturbing to me.

Affair or not,surveillance or not,look at the basic facts: your H is dishonest with you,does not sleep in the same bed with his WIFE,refuses to tell you anything about the poker buddies and his Friday night mystery outings,cell phone off,refuses counseling,has some pill wrapper you find in car that he blows off with some ridiculous excuse,still works with homewrecking OW and just because you think they don't have a lot of time to be with one another,do you really think that would stop them?? The list goes on .Are you getting this? PLease.Try to see this clearly because no one deserves to be treated like you are.

O

willing hon...he IS still having the affair and in your heart you know this...even without proof

i too didn't want to believe that my H was again involved with the OW...even as the facts piled up...even as he moved into the guest room, bought calling cards, refused to go back to counseling

he gave TONS of excuses that i WANTED to believe

eventually he moved out....and now he and OW are living together

while they are home you have a better chance of saving your marraige!!!

you need proof to use for exposing the affair and you need it fast...that is your next step that could save your marraige

OK - you are cracking me up!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I KNOW that you are all right. As disturbing as my situation may sound, I am SO SO SO much better than I was when I found out about the A the first time. I literally had a nervous breakdown and was a total basket case. Not so this time (even though it might sound that way!).

I worked so much on myself over the past 4 years. My counselor agreed that until I was healed myself, I could not contribute what I needed to the marriage. I KNOW I deserve better and so do my kids. But, I also know that WH is capable of better because I have seen it. That is the reason I have stayed. That, and because I don't want to split up and hurt the kids.

Since finiding out about the A, I have earned a promotion at work, started my own photography business (that I LOVE!), and I have taken more pride in my appearance. I have made friends and I do fun things. I am not afraid to go to events and do activities by myself when WH refuses to accompany me. I have found happiness within myself. I am not happily married, but I am happy as a person. Most of the time, anyway.

So, all that said, I know that I can find a way to do what it takes to discover if there is an A to discover. True, I feel like an idiot for not seeing it earlier - I probably just didn't want to so I put the proverbial blinders on. It is not fun to see what is out there once the blinders come off - especially when it is not et black and white for me.

I think I am at the point where I realize that this life is NOT working for me. That's why I came back to MB.

Funny thing - I didn't consider myself a 'MB flunkie' until yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Guess I am, though. This might be my second 'test.' I WILL NOT FLUNK THIS TIME! (But, I will also say that I need some help to do better......)

It does bother me, though, that in 24 hours I have gone from just wondering how to do better at my M to being somoewhat sure that WH is still having an A. Is that normal? Or, just irrational emotions getting the best of me right now?