Then perhaps it's already time to consider plan B or plan D?

Plan B really only works after a great plan A...which I'm not sure that you've really been able to do so. But, noting that your LB is empty indicates that things are at a very very bad state.

Personally, while I am VERY pro-marriage, it would seem to me that perhaps it IS time to move on...for YOUR sake. It sounds to me like you're both just in this for the kids anymore...but what kind of example is your marriage providing for your kids? HIS family provided a poor example...and look what it lead him to.

I honestly think you might make it clear to him that this is beyond what you're willing to accept anymore. Hopefully you'll get some vets to log in here for some better advice.

Owl -
I think that maybe in my mind I am at that point that you refer to. If he is having an A, I have nothing left to put into this marriage. I am not sure that I have anything else, anyway.

But, determining if he is having an A will make a big difference in how I handle my next move. It would be a shame for me to move out and move on just like he wants if he has been deceiving me all this time. He KNOWS that I want(ed) this marriage to work more than anything and he KNOWS how hard I have tried to make it work. If I go ahead and throw in the towel without knowing the full extent of the situation, I have alot to lose.

Make sense? I guess what I am saying is that I think I know how this will end. We'll split. But, how that comes into play has yet to be determined.

Plus, if I have time to discover and deal with his potential A now, I will be in better shape to help get my kids through a separation and/or divorce. This will be SO hard on them.....

What is there to suggest? She needs a backbone implant. She *KNOWS* what she to do:

Kick his a** out of the house; file for divorce; go to plan B.

If she isn't going to do that, then she has to accept that he is going to [censored] OW for the rest of the M. And then, when the boys go to college, maybe he'll divorce BS, maybe he won't.

This handwringing about "oh, the poor kids" is ridiculous.

She is teaching the boys that women are, in fact, nothing more than "life support systems for vaginas" who deserve no respect. Both WS and BS are teaching the kids how it is acceptable for a man to treat his W. So, BS and WS are dooming the kids to the same kind of failed relationship that they now have.

Ouch!!!

Jimmy, I am doing the best I can.

I fully intend to find out what is going on and be done with this. Wouldn't it be stupid to separate from him NOW without all the facts?

I am TRYING to get a backbone...... after all these years of not having one, I can't just turn it around on a dime in a couple of days.

I do NOT intend for my kids to repeat this cycle. I intend to find a loving, caring, supportive relationship (be it with WS or not) that my kids will have as an example as they grow up. If I don't find that, then I will show them by example that one can be happy on his/her own.

Don't give up on me yet!

Ironically, part of the reason that I have stayed so long is because my parents provided a great example of marriage and family. (They just celebrated 40 years of marriage last summer.) I have believed - probably to a fault- that it can work out regardless of hard times. That is what I learned from my family. That is part of the reason why, when looking at these things in bits and pieces, I have been able to rationalize them as OK in my mind.

I have NO experience with divorce. No one in my extended family has been divorced. I only have a few friends who are divorced. It is very foreign to me. That is part of the reason that I have kept fighting.

4 years ago (and since then) I was so off balance as an idividual that I did not think I could handle life without WH. But, I have changed. I feel like, for whatever reason, my eyes have opened over this weekend and I can FINALLY see what is going on. And, I will fight for something better for my children and myself.

Willing, you've got the backbone. The fact that you're trying to find out for sure what you're facing tells us that. Don't worry about it. No one is giving up on you. We'll be here to support you.

What's the latest on the tracking device? Have you considered Owl's suggestion that your trusted friend (or better yet, trusted friends, plural) help you do a little surveillance and tracing? Also, I recommend you read lostherlove68’s thread. He’s found out a ton of information on his WS just by putting a small, voice operated tape recorder in his WS’s car.

Willing,

I can understand your reasoning for wanting to stay put for the moment rather than Plan B, he leaves or you leave. You still do not have any concrete evidence that your husband is having an affair. I must admit I believe he is. However, he could have traded the addiction of an affair for the addiction of gambling. Heplays poker Friday and Sunday nights. He will tell you about his Sunday location and buddies but not Friday. What is his reason. Communication seems to be a real problem for you both.

There are many questions I would like to ask :

- Does your husband play for money and if so, is it large amounts of money. Are you savvy of your financial affairs. Is he driving you into debt?

- Your husband comes into your bed for sex in the mornings. What do you do when you have the need? Have you discussed this with him

- How old are you, your husband and your children.

- How long was your husbands affair and how did you find out

If you decide to stay put, your reason is because you want to gather evidence. You cannot do this if you put him on alert. I would be acting as normal for the next week, give him his nightly kiss on the forehead and ILY. I would actually try and kiss him on the lips and see how that goes. If he pulls away, do not say anything just take note.

In the meantime, you need to be preparing yourself for some major snooping and observation such as:

- Compare his behaviour on Friday nights to Sunday nights. Does he groom himself differently. Does he come home Sunday nights smelling of smoke but not on Fridays. His Friday night clothes smell of perfume. What time does he come home Friday as compared to Sunday. Does he drink both nights. Are you awake when he comes home. What is he like when he returns? Does he shower immediately on his return on Friday but not Sunday.

- If there is OW, they would be exchanging gifts. Has he been telling you that he buys himself new shirts or toiletries. They would be giving each other birthday cards, christmas cards, anniversary cards etc. They would be somewhere in the house. Look for them. That is how I found out my husband. Look every where particularly in the room where he sleeps, under the mattress etc. Look through every cupboard in the house. Do one cupboard at a time. Look inside books.

- Check his credit card for any female gifts he may have bought. You can request this from archives for the past say 2 years.

The other suggestions made by other posters, such as having a friend tail him or using some device. This is a must. I do not believe you will find anything this Friday.

Good luck, Innocence

Innocence-lost:

- Does your husband play for money and if so, is it large amounts of money. Are you savvy of your financial affairs. Is he driving you into debt?

I am the financial person in our family, so I account for everything. On Sunday nights, they play tournaments for $5.00 each. On Friday nights, he takes $30.00. He calls that ‘his money’. If he wins anything, I never see it. If he loses, I figure he has not lost much.

- Your husband comes into your bed for sex in the mornings. What do you do when you have the need? Have you discussed this with him

Honestly, I have been so frustrated with this situation that SF has been far from my mind. One of my top needs is affection and I am definitely starving for that. But, even when I ask WH for a hug, he does not oblige. I quit asking because it hurts to be rejected.

- How old are you, your husband and your children.

Me: 36 WH: 39 OS: 9 YS: 5

- How long was your husbands affair and how did you find out

I believe that my husbands affair started somewhere in June-August 2001. I found out when he told me about it on May 26, 2002. He told me because he wanted to leave and he did. But, he came back two hours later. NC supposedly came about in 10/2002. Everyone in both of our families knows about it. My family, to which I am very close, knows that it is a struggle. His family chooses to believe that everything is fine by just ignoring the situation.

I agree with you -to many years and you just can not walk away. Take your time it will come out -pray to god for the help you need. Almost tow yrs I had knew my WH was having an A. One day I was on my computer and read my horiscope -don't believe them but like to read. It said what you are looking for is right under your nose. That afternoon his email account had an update and guess what I found his e-mails. Oh boy. When you do find something be ready it will blow you away.

I ordered a GPS today and I am going to stop on my way home from work and get a digital voice recorder. I decided that I will put it (the voice recorder) in my own car for a day or two to make sure that I know how to work it and so I know what to expect when I listen to it. Hopefully, that will help me settle on the best place to hide it in his car, too.

I am afraid that when I find something, I will freak out. But, I do think I will find something, so I am trying to brace myself.

OK - I got the voice recorder and have figured out how to work it. I don't think I will put it in WH's car tomorrow, though. Maybe tomorrow night. I think when I will hear something is when he is on his way to school in the mornings - that is when I think he might be talking on the phone. I don't know why, but I suspect that he may have a phone that I don't know about it. No signs of it - just a gut feeling.

I also got confirmation that GPS is on the way. (Good thing I intercepted that information and deleted it all quickly!)

I still waver and start to lose my resolve sometimes. We all had a nice evening at home tonight and I just wish it would stay that way. But, I do KNOW what I have to do and I will not be able to rest until I know the truth. So, I persevere.

I was shaking and burning inside when buying the recorder, but I did it. Small thing to be proud of, but for some reason I am. I feel like I am starting to take some sort of control of my own destiny (finally).

Good job. Be prepared that you might find something, but don't worry too much about it. When I got proof, I was RELIEVED. Otherwise I would have thought I was going insane.

Don't lose your resolve, Willing. You have to know to save your self-respect. Your suspicions will eat you alive if you don't go through with this and find out. It's the not knowing, the fear there might be something out there that is debilitating. It drains you. Once you know for sure, there may be pain but it’ll be a much cleaner pain than letting things go on this way, and it will go away eventually.

Taking control of your life is a good feeling and it feeds upon itself. The better you feel, the better you WILL feel. Stay with it, lady.

Willing,
I am pleased to hear that you bought a voice activated recorder. Make sure you securely it well when you put it in your husbands car.
I am slighlty confused. I thought your husbands car was locked and you had no key. so, how are you going to get into his car.

Innocence_lost

Innocence-lost:

WH does keep his car locked and I do not have a key. But, he does leave his keys around the house sometimes and I also know where he keeps a spare door clicker in case he locks himself out. I can get in there to put the recorder in.

I tried using it in my car throughout the day. I can't find a good place to put it - I keep picking up lots of white noise and fuzz and I can barely hear conversations. Is that the best I can expect?

Hi Waiting,
I did the same thing. I rode around with it in my car...trying different things...with the radio on..talking on my cell...whispering...etc. I put it in the seat pocket behind the passenger seat. It was very slim and fit way down in the pocket. When he was driving I picked up some road noise and could even hear him shifting. That night she joined him in the car and they sat in a parking lot talking...and kissing...I got it all.

Good Luck...I'm sorry you have to go through all this...again.

That seems to be the best place that I can find, too - the pocket behind one of the seats. The recorder that I got is very small, too.

Just curious, CF2...... were you able to hear their conversation clearly? I think what I will get is WH on the phone while he is driving and I don't know if I will be able to understand what he is saying.

What he said on the phone was clear because he was talking over road noise and radio...no need to muffle your voice when you are alone in the car. I used headphones to listen the speaker on the recorder sounded more fuzzie. Some area I had to listen to several times...a few words were just lost. But all and all I got a VERY clear picture of what was going on.

If the recorder is noise activated it can also give an idea of how far he's going. 5 minutes from point A to point B.

Is it a digital recorder? Otherwise audible click might be heard at the end of the tape.

Dear WTW:
I can't believe that I found you again, old friend.

I have not been reading the forum for a long time. And I never usually read in GQII. Something tonight told me to go on the MB forum and when I didn't know anybody in Recovery anymore, I just happened to come here and find you. What a strange coincidence.

I just spend a long time reading the whole thread. I am amazed how much you have changed in the past years. You have grown as a person. It is admirable how you are able to assess your situation now and come up with a good plan.

Dear WTW...I am saddened so much by the description of your daily interactions with your H. You wrote in an earlier post that the rejections hurt you the most. Let's step back for a moment and look at the whole picture. He doesn't tell you ILY, he sleeps in another room, he has mechanical SF with you, he spends two nights a week away from you, he keeps the names of his poker friends a secret...WTW I am sorry to tell you again what you already know. You have created a marriage that is daily "normal life" for you, but to everyone else (and to yourself as well, if you look closely) it is a farce. It is a terrible tragedy. He behaves completely loveless. You wrote before, that you realize that he is staying only for the kids, not for you. This realization hurts, but look at the positive it may mean for you: You have suffered through four years of rejection and failed trying. What is so bad about the alternative to separate from him? He is not meeting your needs- no affection, no admiration, nothing. he is only making your life sad and unhappy. You wrote before that you have become a generally happy person now...if you leave him that will only improve. You will be free from this daily struggle.

Gather your evidence. You are doing a great job at getting the data together with the help of our undercover MB spy team. Knowledge is power.

Something lead me to your thread tonight. I don't know anything about spy technology, but I think I may be able to help you in another way. Long time ago I tried to back you up, to make you stronger. I like you very much, WTW, you are an intelligent, wonderful person. You deserve so much better than this.

I have to go...working tonight. I'll be checking on you. Please know that I am thinking of you and sending you a big old girlfriend hug
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it's digital. I turned te beep feature off, too.

OK - get this. WH just came in here and changed clothes to run an errand. He has to run over to a guy's house that I work with. Anyway, I noticed that he was wearing a pullover that I have never seen before and I made a comment to him about it. I am sure that OW bought it for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He came up with a quick, "I bought it a Kohl's" - but I know that he does not shop there for himself. In fact, come to think of it, I have noticed that it is wierd how he started buying clothes for the kids there - sounds like maybe he is getting some shopping influence from OW?!?!

Anyway, it was ridiculus what a spectacle he made trying to explain why he had this new pullover. He went through his closet and the laundry looking for the "other one" that his dad gave him a few years ago. Sure, I knew he had that one - but he never liked it enough to buy another. Plus, the new one has a big stripe across the back and I KNOW he hates stripes like that.

I feel sure that it was a Christmas gift from OW. It has infuriated me all over again! How dare he wear that around MY house!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Thanks goodness I had a hair salon appointment this evening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am grey-less again and I have a sassy new cut.... his selfish cr*p is NOT going to ruin my night!!!