You go girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry to hear about your washing machine and how it is just riping up sweaters and things, too bad that red sock got in there and turned everything pink and I didn't realize that really hot water shrinks just about everything except polyester. (OWskankho choice of material).

OOOoops...I must be psychic that didn't happen yet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Liza!!!!! I wondered if you were still here!?!! I have wondered about you over the years and hope to find that you are doing better than I by now. You'll have to give me an update when you get a chance. How are your kids? Like mine - those boys grow, don't they?

I hate, hate, hate to finally realize that this is still going on. It is absurd that it took me this long to figure it out. But, at least now I realize that my life is not over if we don't stay together. Hopefully, it will be better!

Every once in awhile over these past few days, I have almost started to feel sorry for WH. When this is exposed, his life is going to go totally to the cr*pper. The facade that he has created over these years will crash immediately. I cannot save him from it - and, FINALLY, I don't want to. He has to help himself. Only he can do that.

I do get the feeling that WH is on 'alert' so it may take me a little longer to get what I need. I hate it because I want to get this overwith while I still have such strong feelings about it. But, I will try my best to not let my emotions get the best of me so I can do this right. I want no regrets.

Keep in touch IP!

OMG!! The washing machine bit made me laugh out loud!!!! I'll have to remember that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dear WTW:
a lot of things that we two have learned in the past four years, right?

See it this way: your H has decided to reject your offer of sharing your life with him. He prefers to keep you at a distance...it may be guilt, it may be a continued or new A, I don't know. But he is limiting his own happiness and definitely yours.

I am so sorry that I have to find you in this turmoil (but at least I found you, even though you were "hiding" in GQII, what a foreign territory!).

At times, when my H and I hit a rocky spot on that famous recovery road, I too felt, that I might be better off without him. It was a liberating thought. It would end the daily worrying, the rejections, the fights. At those times I thought about a new life on my own, without the sadness, without the baggage of his A. When I thought that way I became more calm. I realized that it was my choice to stay in this M. I didn't have to take this one more day if I didn't want to.

My H has been very good overall. We are sharing our lives and have made great progress. He is still at times withdrawn, and our MC thinks that this is his character that will likely never change. I have to learn to live with it or get a divorce. She also thinks that we truly love each other and have a good foundation.

I totally understand your worry about the current situation with your H. Just last weekend I worried a lot because Saturday it took him 12 hours to finish the same work he did on Sunday in only 6 hours. We have come a long way and now we are dealing much better with my flashbacks or lack of trust. I talked to him Sunday night and said again that another A would be a total dealbreaker for me. He just looked me straight in the eye and said very seriously:"Do you know why I am not having another A - because I am happy with you". He has worked a lot on our M. He has been in IC, MC with me, he is an open book accounting for his time, calling me from work to show me he is really there, he sends me flowers, comes home and greets me with a hug and kiss, sleeps cuddled up to me- tries to make me happy, tries to make me smile. If I want, I can check all EZpass records, phone bills, expenses. Do you see the difference, WTW? I hope I am not hurting you, I just want you to see what recovery can look like.

I think your relationship with your H is in a very bad spot. I always wondered why he would not sleep in your bed. That is very concerning, as well as all the other rejections, lack of affection, picking fights. Think about how he sees himself. I his skewed perception he is the martyr. He gave up OW to stay with his kids. He is refusing to give you a chance to win back his heart, why? He must be very depressed and lonely in his self-made isolation. Now how long can someone endure this? I am not sure that he is actively involved in another A. He may, because this isolation has been going on for 4 years and it may have become too painful for him to live like this.

Short of a miracle I do not see how his state of mind towards you could change after a plan A from your side for so long. This is exactly why Harley recommends a time limit on plan A. There comes a point when you have to move on to protect yourself. What your H has done to you is cruel.

Hugs,

Liza –
I think you hit the nail on the head with this:

Think about how he sees himself. I his skewed perception he is the martyr. He gave up OW to stay with his kids.

I am not convinced that he has actually given up the OW at this point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, but I still believe that in his mind he thinks that he is sacrificing his own happiness somehow for the kids. In reality, he is making that choice for BOTH of us as long as I let this continue.

Don’t get me wrong, I am SCARED. Very scared. If I find out about an A, I will still be devastated by the reality of it regardless of how much I try to prepare for that possibility. If I don’t find an A, my choices somehow seem harder to make because I don’t have a catalyst pushing me over the fence. But, regardless, I know what I have to do. I have reached “that point.” Now, I just need to be patient until I find out what I need to know and then somehow find the resolve to carry through with the hard parts.

One step at a time, right?

My GPS arrives via FedEx today. I am going to put it in his car tomorrow night while at OS’s basketball game. That way I won’t take a chance of him catching me doing it at home. I’ll find out where he goes this weekend. And the next, and the next, if I need to.

It is very sad that it has come to this.

Later - WTW

bwahahahaaaaaaaa You are a devil! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dear WTW:

I thought about you a lot today. I am not convinced that he is having another A. His calm reaction to you when you asked him about the pills would be unusual, if he really used these for s** with OW.

His poker nights are still a dealbreaker in my opinion. With his history of a full blown A he owes you. No secrets, no excuses.

Remember WTW, you are enabling his behavior. Seems familiar to hear this from me, right...:-) He gets away with not telling you where he goes Friday nights because you allow it. He is abusing your plan A. He is disrespectful to you. Stop allowing him to treat you like this.

I think you have to evaluate for yourself, if your M is worth more resuscitation efforts. Can you really love someone who treats you so bad? Or have you just created the false reality for yourself that you love him? Are you continously excusing his behaviors? Isn't your whole M one false reality?

What do you think?

Hugs,

zListen my WH is alwasy cool -they learn that eventually also.

Liza -
I just wrote a huge long message and accidentally deleted it..... Makes me SOOOOO mad! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

There are just so many things that don't add up. When I take them in one at a time, I am able to rationalize them to myself and make his excuses reasonable. But, when I look at the whole picture, I just can't think of anything that explains his behavior except an A. So many things...... he will not sleep with me - no ILY's - turns his head when I offer kisses - no hugs or affection - avoids spending time with me - unexplained "poker games" - new fleece, shoes and watch that I don't know where they came from - I love things ABOUT you, but I don't feel 'that way' about you - I think we should stay together for the kids - the pill things - refuses any counseling or outside help - and the list goes on.

If he is not having an A, then it is clear that he has some other major issues that he needs to deal with before he can have a successful marriage to anyone, you know?

Regarding love...... well, I am not sure that I love him anymore. Not like this, anyway. I am not sure that I even remember what love from a spouse feels like anymore. Sad, huh?

The GPS came today. I put it on my own car so it can track my running around this evening. Tonight, I should be able to download that data to make sure it works and to know what to expect. I'm thinking I will put it on WH's car tomorrow night so it will be there Friday. I am dying to find out where he goes.

All this 'spy stuff' - I hate it. I have been shaking in my skin all afternoon. I am a very open and honest person and doing this goes against everything that seems right to me. It is a test of my courage each time I have to take another step. I am scared - very scared. But, I know that I have to do it, and I will. Like someone said earlier, the continuous not knowing is worse than anything I will find out. Funny thing - I am not afraid of what I might find out - I am afraid becase I feel guilty going behind the back of someone that I care about to check up on them. I feel bad checking up on someone who may have been continuously dishonest with me for over 4 years!!! How psycho is that?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

OK, MB's...... I need some SERIOUS help here....... I am freaking out inside right now........ VERY hurt & angry...... cool as a cucumber on the outside, though.

Remember the pullover from last night? After we all got home tonight, I went and checked the label to see what brand it is. OLD NAVY!!!! He said he bought it a Kohl's - I feel sure that they do not see Old Navy clothes at Kohls!!!

He totally lied to me!!!!

I know that I already knew it inside, but the reality of seeing it in front of me cuts to the bone. I desperately want to ask him how he bought an Old Navy pullover in the wrong size for himself at Kohl's!!

I shouldn't tip my hand, should I? I am in an angry panic on the inside right now...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

When my FWH was in a serious A he would come home with new expensive Tommy Hilfiger Shirts, new shoes, a watch. It is very unlike him to buy himself clothes, shoes etc. without me. Totally out of character.

I think you have more proof for yourself in catching him in this lie. You will get more proof from the GPS. Hopefully, something that you can use for real exposure and a real Dday.

Willing, as much as I know you want to tip your hand and give him a what4!! Please suck it in and let it all come to you, becuase if you let on that you know something is off tier, he will start to cover his tracks and you will be hopping on the selfdoubt train again, loose your train ticket, and beat him at his own game.

I know that feeling...hate that feeling. But now you KNOW the cause of his behavior. If you want to prove it lay low, post here, document in journal. When I was gather evidence I would document in a calendar days he acted weird and I would cross reference with cell phone bills, ATM withdrawls, credit card reciepts. It helped me establish a pattern... you know regular "meeting" nights, locations, time frame. It all just proves what you already know. It confirms its not your imagination. I also use to photographed items that I suspected to be gifts to keep record.

This is war. You are gathering intelligence to make a strategic plan.

Hey whats the noise? "clunk' Is that your washer AGAIN? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

CF2 - you totally make me laugh! Funny thing - when I was holding the pullover I noticed that it was made of polyester and it reminded me of your post about the washer! Soooooooo tempting...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

How long did you have to gather evidence before you could go public? I don't know how long I can endure this...... How will I know when I have enough evidence?

Still biting my tounge really, really hard over here...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

W2W,

This stuff can really make your heart pump and your nerves jump. I would recommend that you find a time and place to listen to the recordings or review the GPS which will allow you to freak out and have a couple of hours to calm down before having to face your H. If your trusted friend has a computer you might want to review the GPS data at your friends place. If you have some privacy at work, that might do also. When you get the real, hard, proof, it's going to shake you hard. Plan to have a place to melt down and some time to recover - so that you can plan a strategic response instead of just reacting.

-AD

Well, the more the reality of it sinks in, the more it hurts. It just feels so "in my face." Seeing the tangible things that OW has probably given him and knowing that he flat out lied to me about it...... I didn't think it would get to me this much. It hurts, bad.

Then, my mind starts to wander deeper - this is not just a discovery that he has lied to me, but a confirmation of some caliber that he is having an A. Even bigger, though, is the sense of confirmation that he has been carrying on this A for the past 4 years, and at the same time allowing me to endure a pain that I never thought I could survive. He did it WILLINGLY!!! That is just a bit more than I can get my thoughts around right now. How can a person be so selfish that they destroy other lives so violently just to satisfy themselves.

I don't know how to feel...... one part of me is hurt. Very, very hurt. Why would he do this to me, to anyone? The other part of me is mad....VERY mad. HOW DARE HE?!?!?! He is stealing my life from me one day at a time and he is doing it on purpose. Who the h*ll does he think he is? It is NOT acceptable!!!!

I will gather evidence and I started a journal noting all the things that happen. If he is bold enough to wear her gifts in my house, then surely he is careless enough that I can gather info quickly. I want him out. Enough is enough.

I keep thinking ahead to how I will expose this. I know that I want him to leave. But, I don't know how to tell him what I know. Any suggestions? It would give me something to focus on when times are rough....... (like now!)

Also, what is enough evidence? I keep wondering how long I am going to have to live like nothing is wrong......

W2W,

On the question of "what is enough evidence", the answer depends on your goals.

If you want to somehow save the marriage, you need enough information to figure out the weaknesses in the affair - and figure out how you can defeat it. You need to keep your survielance in place long term without divulging your sources - so that you can verify any claimed recovery. That's a hard hard road, but there are some people here who have walked that road to success.

If you live in a state where it matters and you want to file for D on the basis of adultry, you need to talk to a lawyer about the evidence you will need in order to prove that. In my state it does matter but not very much, and since my XW agreed to a reasonable settlement, it saved a lot of pain, time and money to divorce "uncontested".

If you need to be able to pursuade others (to expose the A to some folks who might have some influence), you'll have to figure out how much you need for that.

BUT....

You don't have to prove anything to your H.

He knows what he is doing. If you have enough for you to know what he is doing, you don't have to prove it to him. Just tell him you know. You don't have to tell him how you know.

Legal advice might really help ease your mind right now, and I would go see an attorney if I were in your place. I found that it really helped me.

-AD

Well, I put the GPS on his car last night. I am queasy today knowing that I did it. But, the deed is done. I went out this morning while he was in the shower to put the recorder in his car, but I panicked when I realized that there were no pockets on the back of the seats. He drives a Mustang with a standard transmission, so it is very loud. I don’t know that I can find another place to put it where I will be able to pick up any voice activity. Ideas?

I am SO ready to be done with this. Living in my house with him and acting like nothing is wrong is making me sick.

Dear WTW:

how about under the passenger seat? With Velcro?

last night after dinner I ask my H about his opinion on your case. To my surprise he remembered that I had told him about you a few years ago. He said in his opinion your H "is gone" and that you better come to terms with the fact that "he is not coming back". My H always told me, that at the time of his A he felt detached from everything, from me, from the kids, from his life. It seems to him that your H is very much detached from you. He is ONLY staying for the kids. As soon as they turn 18 he'll leave. And then you will have spent the best years of your life in misery. I asked my H if he thinks your H is in an A. He said from the info available it is possible.

The sweater story is strange- even to me. I think you caught him there. Typical male behavior to not check the label. And a stupid lie to claim it is from another store.

Keep your cool. Gather information. Go see an attorney about the divorce laws in your state. I would want to see a good settlement for you in your divorce. Just to make him pay for all this time of hurting you (but that's just me and I can be mean. Very mean when it comes to WHs cheating on my friends, grrrrr [IP looking very mean and dangerous...].

Make an appointment with you IC. You need to unload this stress somewhere. Ask him/her about coping strategies to deal with the results of your data gathering. And most of all talk to your IC about where you are emotionally now. You said you don't love your H anymore (believe me I can understand you there- totally) but you may still have to deal with your feelings about duty...about giving up on your promise to stick with H in "good days and in bad". I think you are very similar to me there. We are honest people, we have given a promise...but now you have to realize that there are circumstances beyond your control. Realize that in this case now it is the right decision to retract your promise.

Hugs,

LOL!! My WH drives a mustang too! (but he had a pocket behind passenger seat.)

How much is enough? You'll know. The OW in my sit. was a family friend...and there were losts of excuses and gray areas. Most of the conversation was one I could have had with my sister...until they started kissing. I retreived the tape at night and listened to it while my WH was asleep. I was up throwing up all night...he left for business trip the next day...so I didn't have to see him for 5 days. The day after he came back the PI I hired followed him to confirm the evidence I gathered. That night I confronted him...he still doesn't know what I have.

Most of the evidence I had gathered was circumstantial. The recording was not admissable because both parties were unaware of recording in private conversation. So I couldn't use it in my state. I hired PI for 3rd party confirmation.

It depends on what you what the evidence for. If you want it to make sure there is no doubt and to expose to stop A is one thing, if you want to use it for legal proceeding its another. Have you talked to a lawyer yet?