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#1565606 01/17/06 11:06 AM
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I feel the need to say out loud that I very much admire, appreciate and relate to your point of view.

That's the value of a support group like this for me.

I've not only learned from others who think the same and/or differently from me. However, it also feels good to be validated in my thinking, to learn that there are others like you... that feel and think similarly as me...

You express your thoughts and compassion so well.

My H and I have been working on the issue of ANGRY OUTBURSTS, talking about how we learned in our original families that venting anger is helpful and OK. We came to the conclusion that this has been "UNPRODUCTIVE" for us. We either FIGHT (with words) or RUN. Instead, we have been practicing and talking about first calming down and "SHARING OUR EXPERIENCES" of events with each other..as you say...

Thanks....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
mimi_here #1565607 01/17/06 07:18 PM
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Well... thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'd be interested to hear how you are doing with the angry outbursts. This seems to be a problem imbedded in my family. Both my husband and I come from families of screamers. We don't do much in the way of outbursts to each other anymore, but unforuntately we arent making much headway as a family. Its very very distressing to me.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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We don't do much in the way of outbursts to each other anymore, but unforuntately we arent making much headway as a family. Its very very distressing to me.


Bramblerose:

What's going on..if you choose to share?

Hugs to you...


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
mimi_here #1565609 01/18/06 08:28 AM
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what's going on?

Teenagers.

I'm just feeling pretty overwhelmed with both of them. They are good boys (14 and nearly 13) but the shouting and yellng and name calling is just making me ill.

I think the worst part is that most of the behavior mimics what they lived as smaller children, as that was the way my husband and I related.

We've grown up and changed, they haven't. Well...to be honest, we've changed how we are to each other. I won't pretend that we are perfectly calm reasonable parents. We start out well...and it disintegrates.

I did cheer my husband on last night when our oldest slammed his bedroom door as hard as he could, and my husband calmly told him that if that ever happened again - the door would come off and he could live without a door.

So, he and I are struggling with this, and its just really getting me down. Some of it is selfish I guess, because I just hate what it says about me as a mother. Other parts of it are guilt - because of the past. And then I worry what kind of lives they'll have as adults (like I did) if they carry these behaviors forward.

Everytime I hear one of them put the other down, I literally want to run away and be sick.


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Oh, Bramblerose...

I so feel your pain about rearing teenage boys...

That was and is a major issue for me that even Steve Harley specifically helped me with...

This was a major problem between my H and I as I dismissed and ignored him as a parent when it came to parenting our boys as teens. He felt disregarded and he was. I tried to shield them from him and any conflict. Conflict is the norm during those years.

Managing teenagers, particularly boys, is just plain tough.

The main thing that I learned from Steve which you and your H probably already know is that you and your husband need to function as a TEAM...A UNITED FRONT AGAINST THEM. POJA on the consequences and let them know that your rules will be enforced by the BOTH OF YOU. That way your marriage won't suffer like mine did and the teens won't have a chance to rule.

Also, Steve suggested DIRECT AND SWIFT consequences for misbehavior. Misbehavior for our boys includes DISRESPECT..YELLING..LOUD MUSIC..TEMPER TANTRUMS...RULE BREAKING...

I know of several books that I found to be helpful. If you are interested, I will share the titles with you.

It is a difficult time, I think, in most families. Much worse than the TERRIBLE TWOS....

But it does get better..our 23 year old is now acting like a normal human being..our 19 year old is getting there..I almost can have a decent conversation with him without me wanting to "slap" him...HONESTLY...


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I did cheer my husband on last night when our oldest slammed his bedroom door as hard as he could, and my husband calmly told him that if that ever happened again - the door would come off and he could live without a door.


My parents did this to me. It was horrible punishment, therefore very effective - actually took that sucker right off the hinges.

They were firm believers in what they lovingly refer to as "LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE" (said in a booming, reverberating voice).

There were four teenagers in my household (my poor mom).

We also each had a "contract" with my parents. The contract listed rules and the corresponding LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE for not abiding by the rules.

The point was to mimic the adult world and the consequences we would suffer for any given choice we made. I think it also aids in teaching children that they are responsible for their own actions.

Example contract:

Froz chooses to come home 30 minutes past curfew.

LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE: Froz has to come home 30 minutes earlier than curfew the next time she goes out.

My parents had a meeting with each of us individually to go over the contract. I helped choose the consequences. My parents had already outlined some of them and listed some items that they were struggling with me over, such as breaking curfew, slamming my door, etc...

I was given the opportunity to negotiate anything I believed was unjust and offer other solutions. I was also given the opportunity to ask for things I wanted to negotiate for, such as a later curfew. My parents would discuss it with me and maybe agree that if I stuck to the outlined curfew for 6 weeks, they would give me a later curfew after that time. If I didn't come home on time, my curfew would remain the same.

Believe it or not, I never did get a later curfew. I was always stubborn.

In parenting my own children, I have applied a lot of these concepts. I have also learned to step aside when they make smaller bad choices and let them suffer (just a little) the consequences of their actions. It hurt to see them suffer, especially when I knew I could step in and prevent it if I chose to.

I figured it would be much better to let them suffer a bad grade on a paper because they forgot to turn it in than to have them learn that lesson with bigger things later in life.

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Some of it is selfish I guess, because I just hate what it says about me as a mother.

It doesn't say anything at all about you. They are old enough to be responsible for their own behavior.

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Other parts of it are guilt - because of the past.


It is irrelevant at this point. You can't change the past and regardless of where they may or may not have picked up some of their habits, they are still old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

Parents aren't perfect. I think it is important to show children that parents make mistakes. If my child smokes a cigarette and uses the defense "you did it when you were my age" and they think that is some justification, they are no less responsible for that behavior than I was when I did it. I learned better ways for doing things and so can they.

If they try to use the "you did it" defense. I come back at them with, "Yes I did. That is why I know now that it is a bad decision". It usually shuts them up and again reinforces that they are responsible for their own behavior.

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I worry what kind of lives they'll have as adults (like I did) if they carry these behaviors forward.


I worry about this, too. But, it's not too late to guide them.

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Everytime I hear one of them put the other down, I literally want to run away and be sick.


Running away and being sick doesn't sound like much fun. Here is an amusing alternative...

One child insults his brother and puts him down.

LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE (again with the reverberation):

That child now owes his brother one kind deed.

Doesn't that sound like much more fun for YOU???

frozen1229 #1565612 01/18/06 11:21 PM
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Mimi ~ Yes, I'd like to hear your book suggestions.

I'm really at a loss. Obviously what I am doing is not working.

Froz ~ I like the logical consequence idea. I think my husband will like that too. (He WAS the one suggesting the door removal).

I will say about my guilt and about the past - my younger son is very behind in his emotional growth. Both have suffered alot when they were very young because I spent 2 years in a serious horrible depression. My children were seriously truely neglected during their most formative years. I still see some of the legacy of that event in their behavior now. Add to that, they got to watch 10 years of a pretty sick dysfunctional marriage where me and my husband pretty much tore each other apart and heaped all kinds of emotional abuse on each other....

I talked to my younger son about it one day not too long ago. I told him how sorry I was that I had abandoned him when he was so young and helpless and needed me. He just kind of nodded and said it was OK. But when I glanced at him, I saw a tear run down his cheek.

We've done various types of counseling. And I do my best to make today right.

But I think my guilt is starting to distort my own thinking - ok, not start - its distorting my thinking in a huge way, and I suspect I am guilty of believing I have had way more power here than I really did.

I hug both of them every day and tell them how much I love them. That can't ever make up for all those lost hugs.


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Froz ~ I like the logical consequence idea. I think my husband will like that too. (He WAS the one suggesting the door removal).


Yeah, my parents had some innovative ideas. We thought they were horrid when we were teenagers...

"OMG, our parents our SO WEIRD!!! None of our friends have to have a CONTRACT!!!"

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Both have suffered alot when they were very young because I spent 2 years in a serious horrible depression.

Mine have probably suffered quite a bit as I have spent the past year in a horrible depression.

I don't even know what to say about it. It's been pretty obvious to them that something has been wrong with me. It wasn't even something that came on slowly, it was - things were fine one day, the next they weren't and I spent all my time in my room, mostly in bed, and Patriot and I spent a lot of time - A LOT - in there with the door shut.

All this, not during their formative years, but during their LAST years with me.

I understand your guilt.

I never told them why. At first I think I just thought if I kept it from them (and everyone else), it wouldn't be real. After that didn't work, I just didn't know what to say to them about it. They liked Patriot so much and really wanted us to get married. I didn't want them to hate him for being yet another man who hurt their mother. I also didn't want them to hate me, for making yet another choice that they felt the pain of.

I may be completely deluding myself and they may have known everything right from the start. I shudder at the thought.

I've been feeling the fear of change lately. My beautiful DD17 is going to be a beautiful DD18 in 1 week and 6 days. 18!!!!! She is the exact same age I was when I had her. She is all the best parts of me and none of the bad ones.

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But I think my guilt is starting to distort my own thinking - ok, not start - its distorting my thinking in a huge way, and I suspect I am guilty of believing I have had way more power here than I really did.


Try focusing on something you CAN change. Don't hold too much regret for the past...the past is what brought you here today. Without the pain of the past, today's growth would be very unlikely. Consider the past a tool, and use that tool to become the very best mother you can be.

Pretend it is me who is in the situation you are.

What would YOU say to ME???

You are a blessed woman, BrambleRose.

One more thought...

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I hug both of them every day and tell them how much I love them. That can't ever make up for all those lost hugs.


When I get too down on myself as a mother, Patriot reminds me that no matter what mistakes I've made in the past, I have been successful in at least ONE THING. He says, "Your children KNOW they are loved".

frozen1229 #1565614 01/19/06 09:21 AM
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BR:

I suffered from depression as well.

My YS understands and knows this. One therapist said that he "feels" my "feelings".

As a teenager, he has used his knowledge of my "guilt" to MANIPULATE me into getting his way.

I talked to Steve Harley about specific interactions that we were having and Steve said: "He's playing you"...

So what I have learned is that there is NO DOUBT that my children know that I "love" them. I should not allow them to manipulate me by using guilt-provoking tactics. Now I tell my son, "Don't even go there.." He respects my ability to call him on his manipulations...

I've learned to separate the FEELINGS out of my PARENTING decisions. That's what got me into the trouble. Steve encouraged me to rely on my H for HELP with this with US WORKING AS A TEAM..My H does not have an issue with "laying down the law". I used to think this was WRONG. Steve said: "Accept you were WRONG, Mimi..your H is RIGHT." Basically, I learned that this is what TEENAGERS need, especially teenage boys, trying to be MEN. They require AUTHORITY and RESPECT AUTHORITY. That is the world that A MAN LIVES IN...It's the ALPHA DOG thing...

The message is simple (yet so difficult for you and me, BR) as suggested by FROZ: "THESE ARE THE RULES..THESE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES. BREAK THESE RULES ESTABLISHED MY YOUR DAD AND I/YOUR MOM AND I, THE PARENTING TEAM, AND YOU HAVE THESE CONSEQUENCES...

A major rule in our house now is NO DISRESPECT OF PARENTS...

"I will discuss this with you but not while you are yelling at me.."

Last edited by mimi1254; 01/19/06 09:27 AM.

I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.

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