Follow Steve's advice, but I cannot imagine why he advises you not to expose to OMW. I'll assume he has a good reason.

When he recommends additional exposure, you may need to expose to OMW only and not the workplace. Remember, exposure is intended to cause an end to the affair, nothing else. Expose in expanding concentric circles until it works. OP spouses are near the center, HR departments at the workplace are much further out. Your primary goal is the restore your marriage, not to rid this workplace of a scumbag. Hopefully, exposing to OMW will also take care of that by default.

Regarding her potential loss of employment at this particular location (assuming that would be the result of workplace exposure, which will not necessarily be the result), keep in mind that the workplace did not cause the affair. Rather, the poor state of the marriage caused the affair (assuming your wife does not have other personality or mental issues). The terrible workplace just enabled it. Changing jobs is necessary only when required for no contact with the OP and simply changing job environments does not correct the marital problems and will not prevent further affairs. Understand? A strong marriage will prevent affairs in ANY job environmemt. That said, a freah start in a new job environment can certainly help your cause. But don't be focused on this. Fixing the marriage problems is FAR more imperitive. Please discuss this with Steve.

WAT

Thanks WAT

I am trying to slow down as you and HTW have suggested and pace myself. I think Steve has not recommended telling the OMW yet due to the fact that it appears (as you suggested, but I wish I could be certain!) that the OM may be trying to let my WW down easy so as not to make her mad. He thinks that the OM could actually end up become looking like a player, user (which he was) of my WW making him look even worse in her eyes after withdrawal period. I on the other had have continued to plan A her and may begin to look more favorable at some point. Involving the OMW right now may create a dynamic that could throw this off??

I did what you suggested last night. I spoke with her on the phone and we had a short, but nice conversation w/ I love you's on both end at the end of it and I did not bring up the letter of "hope for marriage". I am going to give it another couple of days before doing so. I hope at that point she will realize that we at least need to find out if hope still exists (I know that it does from being here) for us and our M. If I can get her to a one on one with SH I think he can challenge her to at least think about her options more clearly than I can. This may be the small baby step to move off dead center.

At the same time telling the OMW would likely end the A and may end with OM quitting the ER work on the side. But, telling the HR department at the same time would almost insure her departure from the job and support network from hades and force her hand to re-evaluate our situation. I say that she will likely be let go because she is only a temp employee with no real labor law rights. I take to heart what you said about the M and its condition regardless of job. However, as I have discussed with SH and he agrees, that most of this that has happened has stemmed from something missing within my WW's only makeup (spiritual, she was adopted, lack of affection from mother/father, post partum D, and others). I do accept blame for my contribution to this mess. I see many ways that I can become and will become a better husband using the new tools and techniques here. So, I am not letting myself off the hook. I can be a lot better than I was in our M!

Keep the advice coming. I value it tremendously.

I'm with you on this.

Assuming your wife finally realizes she's been used, she may end up ratting on OM to his wife! Wouldn't THAT be just rewards!

Keep going slow. Do not push for your wife to talk to Steve yet. Even if she agreed, doing so too early may be counterproductive. My then wife read HN/HN and had one call with Steve. She used the information to justify why she was so in love with OM - he was meeting her needs.

WAT

I hear you about taking it slow. Instead of calling the OMW I think in order to satisfy myself I am going to enlist a PI shadow her for a week (of which 5 days/nights will be out of town at place of employment).

I hope by doing this I can find out for certain if the A is truly over or dying. This would simply be one less thing to consume me and my attention. Hopefully, it would help my WW start withdrawal from OM and "feelings". At that point I can just be patient and continue in plan A, meeting whatever needs she will allow me to meet. Work on myself, learning, growing, getting into great shape, taking care of me, etc and becoming a more "attractive" spouse in general.

I have made another session appointment for me only with Steve on Monday of next week. This weekend I will get to see WW at DD basketball game. I may even see if I can go down Friday and cook dinner for them (spending the night) before Sat. basketball game. WW will be working Sat. night so I will likely take kids with me Sat afternoon so that she may get a nap in before going to work that night. Boy, this plan A is HARD!!!!!. I am so wanting to LB, DJ, and drop the hammer on her for what she has done. Only looking at those kids keeps me from doing so right now.

Your feelings are typical and understandable - and also a clue to what happens when we allow emotions to over rule reason.

When you want to "hammer" something, scream at us. Just preface it as a "vent". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I assume you mean shadow your wife, not OMW, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am not a big fan of hiring PIs - especially if you're not after a divorce, although there are cases where there seems to be no other way to get intel. Think this through before you go spending $$. Seems to me that using a PI to confirm suspicions makes a lot more sense than using a PI to confirm innocence. If a PI doesn't see anything to confirm innocence, what do you have? At least when you hire a PI to confirm suspicions, you can better target place/time etc.

WAT

Thanks for reminding me about coming here to vent.

Also, I think the PI to shadow my WW may still be good for my piece of mind. If I spend the $$ and there is nothing other than boring, innocent things going while she is out of town then that's okay with me and would be money well spent for my piece of mind. If something other than that is found out then I know that I immediately need to contact OMW and Send letter to HR director for action.

I spoke to her by phone a moment ago and she and DS were returning from Wal-Mart. She sounded really down in the dumps on the phone. I called back later and left her a message that said that I noticed that she sounded sort of down and that if she needed someone to talk to that I was only a phone call away. I told her that I would only listen and not advise or brow beat or judge. I told her that I only wanted her to know that if I can be of assistance in helping her through whatever she is thinking or feeling that I am willing to do so.

I need some advice.

My WW? claims that the R with the OM is over. It may be or simply put on hold after my discussion with OM (see my thread) but if it is over then pray tell why does she continue to have the A cell phone that her "girl friend" bought her? She has another cell phone that she has used for years prior to this A. What would be the reason to continue to pay the "friend" for use of this A phone that she bought for my WW? She knows that I know about it now. Has the phone simple replaced her other phone as the primary phone for use or is it still being used to carry on some kind of A with the OM or someone new or what? I don't understand why you would still have it other than it is under contract the the "friend" that bought it for her is certainly not going to pay $59 per month to keep it up for 1 year or whatever the contract is.

In any case is it wrong of me to ask her to give it up as a means of proving the A is over? I don't think so. If I ask and she says no (regardless of the reason, "I'm being controlling, telling her what to do", etc or whether the phone is still being used for the A to continue) then I think I have to contact OMW at the very least and would want to send the letter to HR director about the A at the hospital between my WW and OM (over or not at this point).

I just don't see a reason for her to continue to have this phone for use is the A is over and she knows that I now know about it. The OM was fearful of being exposed further when I confronted him and he lied to my WW and to best of my knowledge told her they needed to cool it. If all of this then one more time, why the need for the A cell phone any longer??

Well it hit the fan this morning in a phone conversation with WW.

We exchanged pleasantries and talked about the kids and then I asked her if we could talk this weekend. She gave a sigh and said

WW: I really don't know what about.
ME: About the letter of hope I gave you
WW: I just don't think I want to try
ME: How can you simply shrug off trying when we and our kids have so much too lose
WW: Well, I know that you think counseling can help but there are other ways and I've been trying for two years (in the beginning it was one year that she was supposedley unhappy, wait any longer and it will be we should never have gotten married).
ME: What????
ME: I still believe that we can salvage this M
WW: As far I am concerned the M is over
ME: I am sorry you feel that way, I do not.
ME: I propose that the R with the OM is not truly over as you say
WW: Says nothing
ME: You still carry a secret cell phone that you know I know about.
WW: Other people call me on that number
ME: How can you assure me that the R with OM is over as you state while you continue to have contact at work and a secret cell phone?
WW: Says nothing, but starts to imply that she doesn't owe me any explanation then stops short of that.
ME: Why would you not want to take a chance on saving our M and keeping our family together unless there really has not been a break in the A in one or both of your minds?
ME: This man used you and you can't see it. On top of that you refuse to see the harm this job is causing everyone including yourself. You rarely see the kids, you are depressed, you are living like a college student in an off campus dorm and acting like a teenager.
WW: You don't know what you are talking about.
ME: You know the truth but I think I am pretty close
WW: She says this is not working and no way to live
ME: I agree, that's why I intend on moving back home full time shortly
WW: Oh no
ME: Yes, I miss seeing the kids each night
WW: Well I'll go see my laywer next week to start the paperwork for D
ME: You do what you feel you need to do.
WW: Why would you want to traumatize DD (9) by us both living in the same home.
ME: That would not be my intention. We don't even have to talk about the R or M
WW: Well that is what will happen. She spent the weekend with you and then she cried herself to sleep Monday night.
ME: We didn't even bring up your name. Have you ever thought she cried herself to sleep because she understands what's going on?
WW: Well you don't need to tell her stuff and get her confused
ME: I think its a little late for that and something you should have thought about before having an A.
WW: Well I'll talk to you later tonight. Bye
ME: Bye


Some of you tried to tell me and I admit that I may have been played. But, I believe the A is still alive in some form. The OM may have told her to take it underground and to cool it for a while with promises of being together in the future. (maybe he meant it and maybe he is trying to weasel his way out of this w/out her feeling used). In any case I would bet my next paycheck that something in some way is still going on and that is one of the reasons my plan A since October has basically fallen on deaf ears.

I would like to know one last time about your advice of calling the OMW ASAP and sending the HR director the letter outlining the A and my expectations? I am all but set on doing this after the conversation this morning. Even if things did not work out with my WW and we end up in D court. I think I will have done her the biggest favor ever by getting her out of that environment at the job and forcing her to re-evaluate her life with downtime to spare.

I don't know if she is serious about seeking legal counsel and filing or not. She will have to file irreconcilable differences in MS and I don't have to concur. I am the only one with fault grounds of adultery. I think I may go ahead and have a claim for D sent to her before she can do anything (bluffing or not) and tell my lawyer to drag his feet and or find out if there is a means of cancelling the petition which I am sure there is should progress be made by WW (real progress, not fear based progress).

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Hope,

If you want to remain married, I would NOT file for D, even if you think it will send a "bolt of lightning from above". Believe me, that is exactly what I thought I was doing when I filed for D shortly after discovering my WW's EA 7 months ago. It had the complete opposite effect and sent her further into the A.

I don't think it would hurt to consult with an attorney to see if there are any advantages of you filing for D first. In IL there is no legal advantage at all and we can't use Adultry as a fault.

You can cancel the petition at anytime although if she files a counter-petition, it would then be up to her to cancel hers. Trust me, I am there right now. It's like two people in a room full of gas each one with a book of matches. Not a good situation at all. In hindsight, I wish I'd never filed as I don't think my WW would have. So, at this point I am left with a WW that has no clue as to what she wants, the A is winding down but still there and a D that is pending her decision of what direction she wants to go in life.

Let her file. Make her do all the work unless, or course, you don't (or cannot) want to continue your marriage.

Bark

thanks for the advice. In MS there is really no advantage to filing first so I guess that I could simply wait and see if she is bluffing or not. Her mind may change dramatically if I expose to OMW and hospital and "things blow up" for everyone involved. I think your advice is good since I do want to stay M to the woman I knew but not the woman I now know.

Thank you.

I haven't read your whole thread but I can't believe how much your conversation with your wife reminded me of the last conversation I had with my H before he moved out. This was after I caught him with her again. He had moved home and had been there for 2 weeks. No to counseling, no to trying, no to give it 6 months of focusing on just us and our marriage. Just let me go. I finally left and changed the passcode to get into the house and packed his clothes and set them in the garage. I also filed but only because he was neglecting the mortgage and to get an order where he would have to give me CS. I haven't done anything since and he hasn't asked. He did sign for everything I asked. We have been apart for 3 months and I am now seeing cracks in the A. I am going to give it a little while longer and then decide my next step.

I doubt she will file she was mad and trying to bluff you. I would expose to everyone you can think of especially OMW. I just wish the OW in my case had a husband to expose to. No such luck. I will go back and read all your thread. Try to plan A as best you can. Document everything you can it will help if it does come to D and you seek custody. Good luck and take care.

I know....It's not easy at all. I have been facing major anxiety problems. Sometimes I am completely useless and frozen with fear as to what might happen.

My WW's A is in remission at the moment but I fear that she will be going to visit OM (we are in IL and he is in CA) when I take the kids for a trip over spring break. She's been checking airfares as recent as a couple of days ago and when I confronted her, she said she's just looking, if she really wanted to go, she'd just book the flight. Well, we spent the evening (WW, kids and I) together and I asked her again what she was going to do when we were away. She was very coy and said "probably just go to work". Well, my anxiety got the better of me and by the time we got home I was almost in a full blown panic attack. I put my jacket on and told her I was going to the store. I actually went to church and prayed and cried for 2 hours.

Moral of the story, don't do what I did. Some words of wisdom I wish I heeded when all of this started.

"Don't just do something, stand there!"

Sorry for the mini-hijack, wish you the best......

Thank you newly. I commented on your thread earlier this week and noticed the similarities between my WW and your WH. I can only presume that they are both still involved in the A to some degree. In any case I will not file right away and will instead tell OMW and HR director at place of employment (EA/PA took place on company grounds on company time)hoping she and he both get their just reward.

Being away from that job and support network could be the impetus to get her head out of her butt before its too late.

You hang in there and keep us posted on your progress. I will put you on my prayer list.

hope, she is almost certainly in contact with OM even though she may not be engaged in the PA right now.

Let her bluff all she wants...don't be intimidated by this and DO NOT file for D. If you want a D then file, otherwise don't threat or think of filing. I got the threats many times, granted we are now close to LS, but she threatened it many months ago on several occasions.

If she wants a D let her do ALL the work. Don't help her in any way. She will have to think twice about it and carry the burden herself.

As for exposing, I would expose to OMW first and maybe her work. If you don't do anything it will get worse, but if you expose you have a chance.

Please don't talk about lawyers or D at this time and if she brings it up tell her you will talk about M and lawyers can talk about D.

Hang in there my friend.

Expose to everyone, even the ones you have exposed to in the past.

Thanks HTW

I don't intend to file right now. I am going to expose to the maximum tomorrow. WW will be at work tonight and will be sleeping tomorrow when I execute plan of action with OMW (her cheating H is working in the office tomorrow) and HR director. This should make for a nice welcome when she comes into work that night at 7:00 PM. This and me moving back into the home full time may be what she needs to get her off her high horse.

HP - how many times have I told you to slow down?

Why do you continue to ambush her on the phone like that?

STOP IT!!!

Now, I must have missed something along the way:

???????

You moved out? Maybe I can't keep my stories straight, but what's your living arrangements?

If you can move back home, by all means do so. Get back into your house pronto. Do not be concerned how this may make her furious. Let HER move out if that's what she wants.

You are angry and making decisions when you're angry is a mistake. Calm down before you do anything else like further exposure. Remember, Steve advised you against this and I think his advice trumps any advice from this forum.

WAT

WAT,

I know that I am very angry right now. I am angry that my WW has made a choice for our entire family. I am angry that she will not even get her head out of her rear for one minute to consider counseling. I did not mean to push her buttons this morning. I gave her the letter SH asked me to write last Thursday. That will be over one week tomorrow and I simply asked could be discuss it this weekend. That's when she started with her fog babble or whatever and then the conversation escalated.

I do think that Steve thought (yours and mine as well) that the A was cooling or ended by OM is not necessarily a correct assumption based on reading her this morning. I suspect that it is still an active A EA (PA??) on the secret cell phone and at work. This is just as detrimental as before in that no matter what I do it has little to no effect as long as she is infatuated with the OM and in contact with him. My WW has always gotten her way. She can be very manipulative to gain an advantage. I am one of the only people that has really ever stood up to her and even I became more and more wimpy as our M progressed, probably leading to respect issues that were not there early in our M (me trying to treat her too well, please her, and ending up looking needy or something).

My wife will have to land really hard in order for it to knock some pride out of her and sense into her.

WAT I respect your advice immensley but at this point I think the only way to even "tickle" WW's brain is to make sure that there is no active A ongoing at work or otherwise. On top of that the job is as much a "drug" as the OM. She and her riding partner, RN have now sleep in the same bed and apartment as their boss. He works the 7a-7p shift and then comes home to sleep and they work the 7p to 7a shift and then come home to sleep. ******, there could even be something going on between them no for all I know much less the OM.

This has to move towards an end of some sort. My kids are suffering for their mother's indiscretion, adultery and selfish lifestyle. I am suffering and hurting too. The only one that seems certain that she knows what she wants and is perfectly happy to put everyone else through ****** to get it is my WW. I will try and talk with Steve before doing anything rash to get his new take on things, but he was pretty adamant before that if I found out the A was still ongoing that at a minumum I contact OMW ASAP. I think we all know something is still going on between the two, three, four, nine, crap I don't know anymore. I don't even know why I would want this particular woman back anyway. I am far too good for the woman she has become.

Thanks for letting me vent all.

You and every other BS here.

Keep venting - you're doing good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Now, please explain your living arrangements. You moved out? When, why?

WAT

Hey WAT,

If you recall around when I found out about the A (January 4th, 2006) we agreed to a temporary living arrangement that allowed me to be at the home when she was at work (overnight out of town) and her at home otherwise. It ends up being about 50/50% although I spend much more time with the kids than she does. This has gone on for several weeks in what I thought was an attempt at doing some healing after the A. We still saw and talked to each other failry often during the last several weeks.

I, unfortunately, think the A is still ongoing in some form and the job (lifestyle) is as much an A partner as the OM is. I really think I should now take the advice of many on this board and tell OMW and hospital HR director in hopes of blowing this thing up. It may work, it may not, but she will no that I am serious about doing everything possible to save our M and protect our children. I will not be the one to first file for D no matter how mad she makes me. I will continue to Plan A even if I do not want to. I will not push her to discuss anything she doesn't want to discuss by phone or in person.

Thanks WAT for all of your help here.