Newstart, I didn't do anything to make him see what HE had to change. I think our MC was very good in making us both see where we'd gone wrong in our marriage. The main thing she pointed out was that we'd stopped nurturing it. I came in for most of the flack I must say, but I expected it and listened carefully to all she said. I can't speak too highly of that woman. She was wonderful.

As for getting over the OM. First, the NC bit. OM lives in our neighbourhood so I changed my walking habits, my shopping habits - anything where there was a chance I'd bump into him. I left my job and got a new job (a much better one as it's turned out) as he was a client there and there was a chance he could turn up.

Time, time and more time. Really, to be honest, that and NC did the trick. It was interesting when I DID bump into him a year ago, it didn't put me back to square one at all. I got quite a bit of bashing on the board(kindly and affectionate LOL - yeah, right) because I did speak to him but in a way it helped me see that he what a total jerk he really was. His last words were "give my regards to Rob - oops perhaps not." and I got in my car amazed that at one time I'd thought I'd leave Rob for him.

I just can't emphasise enough how one day you think you'll never get through another day - then one day you realise you haven't given the OM a thought for months.

Don't let the anxiety paralyse you. It can become overwhelming. The mixture of guilt (both for the A and for not feeling as you're meant to for your H), the withdrawal - the whole damn stinking thing.

I actually find it quite hard to write about all this now. It seems so long ago and so far away.

But if I can help, I'll do it.

Thanks Jen. This board is amazing in that there are people like you who are willing to write and think about sad and uncomfortable things to help total strangers. Please know how much help you (all of you) are.

Good morning - sorry _ i dont visit TOO much on the weekends as that is time with H <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How are you doing newstart.

I had an thought - you said OMW is waving at you? Do you KNOW he told her about your kissing? Cause here's the thing - I gave my OM opportunity to tell his wife when i got caught - I hinted to his wife. OM kept contacting me for a month, so a month after d-day, H and I called OMW to tell her. You know what he had told her? That I had feelings for him - but he had learned his lesson before and wouldn't act on them, that my H had called him a rat and we could never talk to them again. She even emailed me a few times during that month saying - she missed me but she understood why we couldn't talk to them anymore - see how HARD recovery was for that first month with them contacting me?

Once she knew the TRUTH - I have not heard one thing from them again.

There are two parties here who are going on with their marriages not knowing that their marriages are SEVERLY in jeopardy. My H once told me - had it just been emotional - he could have handled it - it's the physical part that made him realize how far lost we were. For me it was the other way around - the emotional part of his affair hurt more than the physical...

I am not going to push you hard on the subject - but I think rnning into them and the waving would stop if your husband knew everything, and TOGETHER you called OMW and told her everything - I bet really quick either you guys or them might be willing to move - or replan schedules - you are going to have a harder time healing when you run into them and they wave friendly.

I KNOW you don't want to be the bad guy - I KNOW - you don't want to hurt people more than you have - but the thing is - you have already done it - you have been the bad guy - now's the time to be the good guy and make sure what you have done wrong is righted.

It will be tougher yes - your husband will hurt ALOT - but you guys can only REALLY recovery if he knows the truth...like FF, and Cruisegonebad - they didn't tell the truths until years later...and recovery has been unbelievable hard for both of them - as now their H's have to deal with 7-10 years of lying...that's how their H's see it - you lied to me for 10 years! Our marriage is a sham! You don't want that K?

I wont bug you again about this - but I really hope you consider this K?

Hi Dorry,
Hope you had a good weekend. The OMW knows we kissed... the A ended because she walked in on it. Probably the lowest point in my life... He called the next day to "get our stories straight," and we haven't spoken since beyond a wave or "hi." I've been following Cruise's thread recently, and to be honest it isn't exactly motivation to tell. What a horrible situation! I don't really think it's the not telling that he can't get over; I think it's the whole A. I'm not saying that I won't ever consider this, but I'm not remotely in that ball park right now. Cruise and her H have put me more off it than I was before! OM and his W were pulling into their driveways when I was tonight, and although I feel like I'm getting past it, I was surprised to find that my legs were shaking when I got in the house.

(Ducking in)

Hi Newstart10,

I'm so happy to see you over here - you're in amazing hands with these wonderful women.

I know I posted as to why I think you should tell your H everything over on Recovery, so I won't rehash that. But while I know that the current Cruise/Todd thread might suggest that not telling is a good idea, you might consider checking out CambridgeMan's posts. If I remember right, he lied about the true extent of the affair, even when his wife told him that if he was being untruthful and she found out about it, she would divorce him.

9 or 10 years later she found out (or he told her - I can't quite remember) and the last I heard is that she made good on her promise.

I just hate the thought of you walking around with this albatross around your neck forever.

So sorry if this was a TJ.

Best to you,

G

(ducking out)

I understand what you're saying (what is a tj, by the way? I have a list of acronyms on this site, but that's not on it). All this talk of discovery is making me a little (read LOT) worried. I'm sorry... I'm terrified, and can't/won't tell. I thought I was going to die when the first bout hit the fan (truly - I wished myself dead. Longed for the rest and mental break of not thinking of it or feeling the pain or seeing the pain I was causing any more.). I hurt myself mentally and physically, and my H stopped reacting angrily because he was truly worried about me. He told me that I was headed at breakneck speed towards self-destruction, and although I laughed at him at the time, he was absolutely right. I don't have the strength or courage to do this, and feel a great deal of shame because of it. I could list 50 reasons why I shouldn't, but they all come down to the same thing. I'm too afraid and can't bear to face any more hurt that I've caused. I can't bear to live through this again (times 1000!), or to make my H live through it. I can't bear to risk losing my home, my children, my friends, my life as I know it, or to see my H lose his (or OM and OMW lose theirs). I want to work on myself so this doesn't happen again, and to work on my marriage once I've got myself straightened out. I long for a happy ending, and I'm certain, in my heart of hearts, that telling will end it all one way or another.

Newstart, you know I'm proud of you being here. And I won't spend a lot of time on this because as a BS lack of honhesty is one of the reasons I am getting divorced. When is the next time she'll decide to lie, or ommit the truth? The answer is whenever it serves her interests or feelings, she is not protecting me.

Newstart, this isn't just "about you"

Honesty is not conditional on how it makes you feel, or conditional on how you feel at any particular time. My STBX lied to me about the extent of her affair, lied to me about the details I asked. Lied to me about all kinds of things that weren't affair related too. Shortly after D-Day I discovered I thought I was married to a completely different woman. Is that fair to me? How about your H only tells you the truth when he "feels like" it.

I feel like I lived a lie for years, and she was now asking me to live more years the same way.

I felt like she was protecting the "specialness" of her adultury. It was her and his secret. In fact once she even told me that it was none of my business, it was between her and him.

Is that how you want your husband to feel? Or is the only important thing the way you feel? Do you feel like if you ignore it he will "get over it".

My wife lied again, and again. If she would do that, I have to ask myself when is she going to lie again, to protect herself or any other reason. I feel completely disrespected. Completely like a nothing.

You H is wounded, hurt. He needs medicine. Sometimes medicine doesn't always taste that good, but it is necesary. Honesty is the medicine that will finally stop his hurting, it will allow him to start to heal and start to recover. There is a knife in his back, you honesty will remove it. If you say let's just ignore the knife and things will get better you are fooling yourself. Because your H still feels that knife, the longer it is there, the more damage it causes.

Do it fully, willingly and completely. Remove the knife and allow both of you to heal. To keep it a secret is disrespectful to him, and self serving for yourself.

I have faith in you Newstart.

Newstart, I think the thing you'll find with Cruise and Todd is that Todd just cannot get over the length of time it took for him to find out.

I'm wary of giving advice such as "you must tell". I'm definitely of the opinion it's important to tell but everyone knows their own situation. Althought what you think will happen and what actually happens are not the same. It's so, so rare for the BS to walk out the door. Yes, it happens but usually after the inital shock, most BS's don't.

I didn't tell my H initially. I had just decided I would when he found out anyway. The reason for telling was because I just couldn't bear him living his life without all the true facts of his life. I just couldn't do it. As I said before in another thread (post?) I hoped he'd kick me out if he found out. (That seems so ridiculous to write now - but it's the fact of the time). What actually happened was that we both decided that what we had was worth having and we'd do whatever we could to try to overcome it.

We also decided to tell our grown up children. My DS was remarkably good about it, my DD took it extremely badly and I was worried I may have destroyed our relationship forever.

It didn't. My DD and I are closer than ever before.

Yes, d-day was the worst day of both our lives (seriously) and the months that followed were also horrendous. But I still wouldn't change the fact that I confessed when he asked.

My H rang the OMs wife about 6 months after he found out (various reasons - mainly to stop the OM contacting me) so that's how she found out. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Anyway, think it over.

Gosh, I've got even more to say.



I thought I could live with myself without telling and found I couldn't. I know the panic you're going through. I've said on here before, I used to stand outside (I'm a smoker) and shake and cry at the thought of what was going to happen - whether I did tell or didn't tell.

I'd have had a nervous breakdown or become an alcholic if I hadn't confessed.

One other thing NewStart, ...

If you wait, and wait, and make your H drag the honesty out of you. You will have ruined the gift you were giving him. The gift of radical honesty.
You own him the honesty.
It would like having to keep asking your boss to pay you what he owes you for your labor ... and him to keep putting you off, pay you late, make you beg. You would not feel very respected or valued by a person who did that. Don't make your H feel that way.

I always felt my STBX was also keeping the secret so that she could do it again. So I wouldn't know how she decieved me, the places she hid. The secret phones and emails, contacting OM from her friends. Who needs friends like that. Would you want you H to have a friend who helped him cheat on you? Do you think that friend is a "friend of your marriage?"

Tell your counselor you want to come completely clean, answer all his questions, (you don't get to decide what is important) Ask you counselor the best way to set the stage, have you counselor prepare your H.

Something to consider... my H NEVER asks me details about OM, our relationship, what else may have happened, etc. (at least not since the first night when I told him everything else). I don't think he want to know and then to have to deal with it. I'm unquestionably lying by omission, but have not had to deal with lying about it on a daily/weekly basis. Am I the only person on this board who hasn't told? Tom, I know you support me and don't want me to do to my H what your W did to you. Consider that I am taking every other step to fix this as best I can and am trying my hardest, unlike your W. If you were my H and knew as much as he knows, and saw how hard I was working to make things work between us and to better myself, and knew for absolute certain the A was over and there was NC, and knew I was totally committed to you.... would you still really want to know, at this stage in the game, the final piece of information? To what end??? Honesty is just not an end in itself. Jen, there was a time when I also wished my H would walk out the door and never come back. I could have told him then, but was protecting OM. Now I have far different reasons for not telling.

I thought maybe you weren't the only person who hasn't told but I think you might be. Not saying that's good or bad, I just have a feeling that's the case.

From what I've read in every post from a BS, yes, they would want to know. You know your H, we don't.

The final piece of information (am I right in thinking that it was a PA and your H thinks it was just kissing and cuddling) is probably the one thing BS's want to know. If he thinks that's all it was, it probably is easier for him to try not to think about it.

I used to talk to a particular male BS a lot on MB and when he found out after a year that the final piece of information was that it was really a PA, it changed everything. What changed everything was the fact that he'd been lied to for a year, not the fact of the information (which he'd suspected anyway).

I would, for all the reasons I've mentioned above. Being able to trust in the future. Being able to believe you are not protecting the OM at my expense. Taking the "specialness" out of the A. And of course, knowing how I was decieved to make me wiser the next time.

However, because I can see you are so active in saving the M, I think I would exercise much more patience. That is why I said ask the counselor and let them help prepare both of you. I was willing to wait for that also. Except my STBX lied about going to counseling, then quit when we finally got in.

Don't decieve yourself into thinking, because he isn't asking that it isn't torturing him. He is thinking about it. He is waiting, trying to build himself up and build you up for the confession. The longer he waits, the more resentment that will build. If you put him off, it will hurt him and make him think you are protecting OM, that OM is more special than he is.



How would I know that? How would your H know that? Because you said so? He doesn't trust you, ... you don't have any right to demand that he trust you, you can't take for granted that the trust is there like it was in the past. But it can be, if you rebuild it. If your actions match your words, and you are honest.

My STBX would say, I wouldn't lie to you about that. (Even though she already had) What does that mean? She would lie about something else? How am I supposed to know what it is OK for her to lie about? Is it OK for her to Lie about what she would lie about? It's too much. I'm not talking about, lying about what you got each other for christmas. I'm talking about lying to protect your independent behaivor.

You, Newstart, are nothing like my STBX. I'm just sharing what is inside your H's head. BS pretty much feel the same things.




This is a strong point. You've betrayed him. He is devastated, believe me. You are not protecting him by withholding the truth, you are treating him like some little kid who shouldn't know about the big world. Show your respect for him.

He knows you were wayward. If he finds out things later, and believe me he will - things come out. It will hurt him just as much and you will be back to step 1 again.

Example: This happened during one of our false recoveries. My STBX wears a certain piece of jewlery in her navel. She shows it to me all proud. (When I see it I know it is from OM. OM bought it for her and put it in. I have a copy of the email when they talk about it) She tells me how much she loves it, she strokes it with her fingers and tells me ...... Her sister bought it for her.
See, that is one of her mild lies. But can you imagine how I felt. Watching me wife smiling, hearing her lie, again. All for a $10 peice of metal. But she wouldn't lie to me would she?




Lying is disrespectful. Lying by ommission is disrespectful.

Newstart I just don't want you or your H to suffer the end of your family. You have gotten so much good advice from these ladies. And they are great ladies. I'm going to drop off your thread.

But I'll be rooting for you and your H.

Dear Newstart10,

You sound so much better and I wanted to tell you that! I'm glad to see you opening up. I wanted to share a tool with you that my H and I learned a great deal from. It's called the Enneagram. It's all about self-discovery and it's very powerful in relationships. Our therapist introduced us to it and knowing and understanding our types took years off of our therapy time. It also has given us a common language to speak in our marriage that isn't so gender based. (However, gender definitely enters into couples conversations as JL so eloquently explained!) We use it daily!

You might not be ready for this yet, but I'm not always around. I come and go here on MB now. I thought I'd just share it now and you can come back to it when you are ready if now is not the right time.


http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/FAQs.asp

I suspect you MIGHT be a Seven or a Three and your H a Nine, but it's really hard to tell that from your few posts. Here are a couple of articles about those types in a relationship. Maybe you'll see yourselves in there! Maybe not!

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/7and9.asp

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/3and9.asp

Take care!

Stillwed

Not much else to say on the telling vs. not telling subject. I'd much rather focus on other aspects of recovering a good relationship. Last thought before we leave this for now... I asked Todd which upset him more; the A or the deception, and he wasn't able to distinguish between them. He began by saying that he initially got over both and was willing to forgive and work through it, but then got a letter from Cruise the next day saying that the SF happened twice, not once. His anger seemed split between her making the sober, conscious choice the next day to do it again, and that she didn't give this piece of info the night before during her revelation more than the not telling initially.

New question: We're both trying hard to meet each other's ENs, and are being very nice and friendly with one another. It's great and makes daily life pleasant and happy... but there's a sense of fakeness about it, like we're playing roles. It also feels kind of fragile. I talked to a friend at work who's H had an A 2 years ago and they eventually worked through it, and she said they went through a phase like this. Has anyone else felt this way? Any thoughts or insights?

Thanks, SW. I've seen that mentioned several times and was going to ask about it. Thanks also for the encouragement - I think things are going better, and feel more positive. I always feel better when I have a plan of action, which I kind of do now.

Wow! The Enneagram test is really interesting! You were right... I'm a 7, and it describes me perfectly. I scored on my H's behalf (I'll get him to try it later) and I scored him a 3. I'm anxious to see his real results. Maybe I'll have him try doing one for me... maybe it will be some insight into how he sees me!

Hi Newstart!



We didn't really experience this personally. Once he told me about all of his affairs and I got the details my world felt very surreal and I was very insecure. However, as we entered recovery, I never felt MORE real as a couple. Our love for each other was so much deeper than either of us ever realized. I did have this creepy feeling that everyone could see my pain though. I didn't like that at all. I felt naked emotionally I guess.

About the Enneagram...you've described your H as pretty laid back, right? Nine and Three are connected. A healthy Nine goes to Three when they are doing very well emotionally and may look like a Three. However, an average Nine isn't usually very ambitious. They go along...don't rock the boat, etc. They aren't aggressive at all. Three, Seven and Eight are the aggressive types.

One thing to keep in mind about Sevens is a rather painful thing to realize, but it will help you in the future. Sevens don't feel the depth of guilt that most of us do. This is a good thing to be aware of so that you don't ever find yourself in this mess again! They feel some guilt, of course, but it's short-lived.

They may have shame, but that's not the same as guilt. Shame can even be carried around from your family of origin. For instance, my type Seven son might carry some shame because he knows about my H's affairs. He might feel shame on his family. However, he hasn't done anything to be shameful for himself.

Sevens aren't much for self-discovery, so my hat is off to you for taking that high road!!

Stillwed

A tj, it's a Tom Joad of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's a threadjack.

Ok, you asked if it felt weird "being nice to each other". We were "weird" for a year, if not longer. It's only very recently we've started teasing each other again. I mean REALLY teasing each other. The other day I asked Rob to take the clothes out of the drier while I was at work. When I came home they were still in there. I said, "hmmmmm, I see that instructions weren't followed." He does the same to me, he rolls his eyes, looks at DS and says "oh, ignore it, it's just your mother talking." D'ya know we couldn't even make jokes like that for about a year. Hmmm, are they jokes???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shoot, we've been married 31 years, you'd think it would be impossible to be weird around each other, but yes we were.

It's been rather nice looking out for each other again. We used to do it without even thinking.

That's interesting - Mrs W and myself are also 7's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />