Post deleted by LLG

Hey, can't I still have traces of control freakishness in me? I felt such overwhelming shame writing that...and while I was in the shower, I considered why I didn't post it on your thread...you asked for it. Why today? In this way?

You are the one who asked how could I do that to H? I wanted to answer you...I did a better job in the post that flew away (and btw, you losing your post three times was heard by me, and felt!)...

I know you know this..."Do you believe I am causing all the pain to myself?" Did I say all? Why did you say all? I say half...half yours to yourself. Half. See? You believed me saying all to get you to half...some of...so will you consider getting to the source and seeing why it is there, in you?

Btw...plans changed again...going elsewhere after we see our son...won't be back until tomorrow, so I am posting to you now.

I got that you can take martial arts (did you know I have a hard time with martial and marital? Always have...hmmm) while you're married. The way you phrased your post seemed to me to say the things you could to protect yourself included divorcing WH, taking martial arts classes, and I'm the one who took the order of it, not you.

"But I understand what you mean that I may not be abel to totally protect myself from anything and that it is better to trust God (this is a hard one for me)." Here is where I was going with you...almost. May be too difficult for you now to believe there is no protection and be okay with that. God doesn't reach down and stop pain from coming at us; he often uses it to reach us. Turning to God is essential. Being okay with no protection is essential, too. He promised you would not be felled by pain, nothing more than you can bear. He wants you to stop the pain you are giving yourself, your half of it, as much as you want it to stop. Due to his respect, only you can do that. He weeps with you.

"I'm trying to. I admit I'm not doing my best, not making the best choices, not taking care of myself, focusing on H too much. At times I'm stuck in emotional gobbldy-[censored]." Maybe your path is different than mine...maybe your answers are within each time you choose to not take care of yourself, make a good choice for yourself...choose to get stuck in emotional gobbldy-[censored]. I could not spell that. I like it. Thank you.

When you owned giving yourself the belief you're a victim, what is your payoff in that? Do you fear blame as much as I did? Do you fear doing wrong means being wrong?

We're back to the middle of the thread...you loving yourself, owning all your villagers, being okay with who God created...and knowing you are you, entirely...that living through others, especially your WH, is the DJ of your life. Only then can you choose, from your heart, to change.

"I did see it like a DJ b/c he wants what he wants (to sepnd time togethr, be together), and I want that too. But then what about what I'm asking for. Is this a DJ to even ask what about "what I'm asking for"? Gosh, I will have to change so much of me. I probably shoudn't ask anymore b/c I might be DJing."

You will cut off your nose to spite your face. See how I know this, knowing my marital history now? You choose to see you giving him attention when he wants it as a slight to yourself, though you want it too. Unless he meets your needs, why meet his, even if it is one you both have? Does this logic make any sense to you? You are holding your love as hostage to his. Is that what love is? If love is your choice, and you choose to love...can you not accept his choice of loving you, in return?

There was your little girl inside you again, saying, I better not ask anymore or I'll DJ...I saw your lower lip creep out...I did! I did! Acknowledge you have the fear of spending time with him, which gives you mutual attention, a shared need, will mean that you will be used in return. You won't if you realize the benefit to both of you.

Start looking at all the needs he does meet, instead of the ones you believe he isn't. Find all the needs you believe you have and aren't willing to fill yourself...then why should others?

"About this part. Are you saying that I'd prefer to be unhappy b/c I am insiting on H doing what I want him to, rather than accepting that the things that he does, that make me happy as his own expression of love to me?" Could be. Your choice. What do you think? And it is safer, isn't it, to be blameless, a form of happiness, maybe? Remove blame from your marriage...face your fear and hold her pretty little face in your hands and say, "We are stronger than that. We believe in love, our choice, our power, and love how we love."

DJing isn't real power...can give you a mild feeling of it...like being right does, even when being right causes pain to other people. False power, but if it is the only power we've known, not seeing our choices, then it can be as addictive as distraction.

You are powerless to make any other human do what you want them to do. That feeling of powerlessness was truth. I see you refusing to live by it.

I got a little out of hand calling your H, FWH...I've been there, you haven't. I know that labels define us in our heads and to give us a shot to be something different, we must see ourselves capable of it. I don't know if your H is WH or FWH...neither you nor he are safe enough for each other yet to know, right?

You are utterly adorable in my eyes: "Are you like siding with him?" This is why I look forward to your posts and you stay in my mind. See how beautifully you go from that question to the next and the next?

"DOes that mean that I'm choosing not to side with him? not to work with him? No to believe in us or our M? DOes that mean I'm choosing to work against the process?"

What you thinks matters. What it represents to you, matters. Answer your own questions, LLG...you are fully capable. I'm here to hold your fear for you while you do. I've got both hands out. Put it here and answer yourself.

I show you my fear, too, about reading my history. Not something in you, but in me. This is being intimate, true friendship. I am not a guru or a guide. Someone who experienced a lot of your life as you have mine. I'm human. I fear. My choice is to share, anyway.

You are leading me as much as I am leading you. Right now, I believe in you more than you do...that happens sometimes. I have no doubt you will believe in you more and more each day. The safer you become for whats-his-label, the safer you become for yourself.

I got just as caught up in the ENs battle as you are. I had to consciously choose to let my ENs go...not because they weren't being met, but because I couldn't see them that way. I had to choose to have them met by my DH's presence alone. Only. Chose to see in that, his commitment to be here (and I did not allow myself to believe I was being used); his attention, affection, and love for me in his presence alone. That's where I started.

Again...I envied you, the old me, that your H wanted you off the computer to be with him...I didn't have that. Until I chose to believe differently.

LA

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Post deleted by LLG

I was on vacation all week...got home a little while ago and started all the housekeeping stuff like laundry. Ugh. Had a wonderful time, though. I thought I posted to you that I would be gone all week...I swear I typed "I'm on vacation" several times...could have been in my head.

Well, as for your idea for revenge, I would give you two thumbs down (and I know you know that) because my DH says if he could go back and do MB instead, he would. It was awful. Also, if I tilt my head to the side and blink a lot, all of my A's could look like revenge ones...and they are a deep burden to carry...like a stain you can't ever rub off. You have a clean record, LLG...your integrity is intact. It's priceless. I know you know all of this.

A little thought mantra:

"What if he does it again?"
What ifs take me out of the present.

"You aren't teaching him any lessons"
I'm not his mother, I'm his partner.

"You aren't standing up for yourself."
He knows my thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

"You're letting him walk on you."
I am choosing my life; I am the only one on my feet.

"OOh. It is hard but I keep supressing these thoughts and pointing back to the truth and what is really important."

Suppressing didn't work for me. I had that voice in my head all my life. I grew sick of it...decided to have phrases to repeat to it, kindly, exactly and firmly. Voice in head is fear, from everywhere outside of you and inside of you. Address it, like the little girl she is, and let it go. Hug the stuffin' out of it, smile, and decide your course for this moment. If onlys and what ifs blow past you, because all you have is right now.

How was your week? Do you think this voice gains strength waiting for May? When will they stop working together?

Do you also tell yourself how terrifically kind and empathetic you are? You are. Undoubtedly. Know this. Remember--nothing to an extreme. Empathy and kindness in moderation.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Post deleted by LLG

Hey, I missed reading and posting to you, too. Like a daily connection I missed.

I am not asking what you could have been thinking. I believe I know what you were thinking...where's my power? How can I communicate my pain and anger? Ahhh, the D word. Not with that kind of thought and consideration...more like a word dropped. Your way of saying I've been thinking a lot of stuff I haven't told you, DH...pain crazy thoughts. I believe they come from us, from our desire to put our pain into our FWH's. My desire for this was high at times, and I noticed it came on strong when I got far away from his pain and into my own.

What do you feel when you think of his pain? He brought it on, so he deserves it? His own resentments are painful, too. He wrestles with his own thoughts, feelings and beliefs, has torment, feels lost, out of control...very similar to what you feel. See where blame puts distance? If you both are feeling pain, and you name where it is coming from as outside of yourselves, then the D word looks more like solution. Yet, you know, and I know you know, it is coming from within you, as it is coming from within him; recognize he is also in pain. About himself, for himself and his choices.

Remind yourself of his pain, not above or below yours, is an important part of recovery. I did this by reading DH's journals, so different from the man in front of me. Funny thing about pain...puts distance between two people when they blame the other for it; yet unites them when they don't.

You have to choose which way you want to believe. Your expectations, resentments and pain; or love, understanding, respect and recognition for human to human. Our internal battle is the hardest part of recovery. Which is why I tell you to focus on you.

And you had a safe conversation about very difficult truths. You heard him saying his feelings and thoughts--which brings to mind you caused them, when you didn't. Your fear greatly increases when you allow this perspective. The mantra, "These are his, not mine" was crucial for me to listen and repeat. That hopper on my head saved my marriage.

I remember a time in the kitchen, three months into recovery, when we had a conversation, and DH said, "Fine. We'll get a divorce." And my inner child piped up with "Fine." And we stood there looking at each other with tears in our eyes, feeling four years old, trembling all over. Then I said, "I feel like such a child right now." "Me, too." And the tears fell down and we hugged. "Okay, we won't."

We realized that when we speak directly from our pain, we are not adults about it...I think that's why Harley says that even divorce should be POJA'd...and wouldn't count our mutual tantrums as enthusiastic. We agreed that if we blurted such a threat, it would be a sign that one of us was feeling child-like. We haven't said the D word again, once we gave permission to each other to do just that, as a signal to our own distress.

Where does your FWH's pain come from? My DH said a couple fo weeks ago, "I thought you'd never let me live it down...you would throw it in my face at every opportunity." Doesn't sound like an inner child phrasing, does it? It is...his fear told him he would be a doormat H, a terrible fear he has, and that I would have the upperhand, the A knife, and tear him up with it whenever I didn't like something he did. His fear was a full and real to him as yours...loss of control, no dignity or chance of recovery, all bottled up in it. Being safe doesn't mean not bringing up the A...being safe means he can tell you anything and you must also do the same, with respectful "I" statements. See, I didn't shut up about the A...I told him of each trigger, and I owned those triggers. He wasn't responsible to cure them in any way. I shared my healing, but did not make him responsible for it.

That's where your conversation got scary to me...Your DH believes you are each responsible for the other's happiness. Failure sitting at hand, waiting to jump up...more resentment waiting in the wings to swoop down from failing your expectations and his own; the fuel for more pain laying a puddle around you. False control won't end until real respect comes in to clean out all those things.

I had to clean out mine, first. I could only example, not control.

No surprise to me that stress, frustration and tension were cleared out afterwards--when you face your fears and your marriage remains intact, you are teaching yourself again that connecting to one another is safe, even when it hurts and you feel upset, because the sun rises on your marriage again, and pain unites, not divides. When you blame each other, you double it.

A key part...you both felt really heard. That was missing in our communication, as well. Inner beliefs that anger ends love; conflict ends marriages...these are our own to wrestle with, not our spouses. And when we talk about our irritations and annoyances, we don't use the "You do this to me" language, and if we express a "When you do this, I feel this" complaint, we have to be ready for the other to say, "And why do you feel that feeling?" See, when you don't have the rest of the response...I feel this because ready, then you are just saying "fix it by stop doing it" instead of what it is within your own control that makes it annoying/irritating/frustrating. Ownership negates blame, over and over again. Real power. Consideration. Respect.

When he acknowledges what you say, does not become defensive, telling you that you shouldn't feel that way, then expressing your thoughts and feelings is no longer a tool to control, but a risk at intimacy. You doing the same for him, time after time, builds it. Restores that bond and closeness, and proves to our fears life won't end after the next word is uttered.

I'm delighted you had your talk...and hope that you continue to make those crucial "I" statements in passing, stay O&H and safe. I would begin with your feeling of being taken over by a crazy woman...who is your 4-yr-old inside, straight from fear...and your realization that you won't be using the D word to manipulate, calm that child. Make a statement that says you own that child, those thoughts, and choices. That you're working on it. The more you speak of your fear, the more intimate you are being.

The more you make it your own challenge, not his.

Happy Easter, LLG. Resurrecting self after an A, because Jesus showed us through him, all is possible. All is possible.

LA

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I'm so grateful to your H for fixing your PC! Thank you, LLG's H!

"I think I want to talk to him again about it and ask to drop off that part."

Here's where you are continuing to enmesh yourself in your H in your marriage. No talking to him to ask to drop off that part...just revoke yours. Tell him about your reaction, as I suggested, and add, "I fear for me that two months won't be long enough to get to my issues, comprehend them, own them and change them. I'm sure I can get to the own part...but that deadline scares me. I feel like I won't be ready."

Whatever you want to say, say it. You won't be considering dv in two months. Your choice. Nothing to do with his...you'll respect his choice to consider or not; out of your hands.

What do I think of two months? Leg-trembling terrified. When we were at your stage, we grumbled two years...I give ya two years...and we won't be there until October...two months would be like a blink to us...to you? I dunno. We worked on being safe first, for each other, so that we didn't wrestle the progress, measuring, resenting, frustration, etc...least, not as much. Focused on being safe, and two months stream by...remain unsafe and it will crawl like years, I'm sure.

"could get relief from feeling so frustrated and not having my need met to feel secure and cared for and protected then maybe the dv or seperation could help that." What we're working on together is just that...being your own relief for your own feelings...feeling cared for, protected and secure for yourself, to yourself...meeting your own EN...we've talked about how your H can show you love, but you won't be able to feel cared for...and that's you, not him. Please don't allow your mind to go to what HE should be doing to meet YOUR needs right now...until you know why you crave and have those needs, your part in them, then you will not stop obsessing on H.

" It is exactly where I was coming from. I had been thinking a lot of stuff. While I was being around him and trying to enjoy his presence when certain thoughts and triggers came to mind I found it hard to just relax and be together. I felt I had to address them all." What is the difference between addressing and confessing? (That's the rhymer in me)...the second one is what you're committed to doing in your marriage...state your thoughts, feelings, beliefs...triggers...as what they truly are--your own. You do it without asking him to do anything...not even listen. You are being open and honest (O&H) and that's what it takes. Say, "Whoa...when you wear that blue shirt I trigger." And leave it. Move on. Like your thoughts. No addressing...unless you're gonna mail it off (which is a great idea).

When you do this...there is no anger...unless you're expectating (which is controlling what you cannot control)...there is pride, relief, a tickle of fear and vulnerability, and you do it anyway. No anger. You are holding yourself accountable.

"How could I help her? I hadn't been doing this myself." You know how I learned what I learned? Not by telling others, but by LISTENING to myself tell others...truly. I was a control freakin' projecting maniac...I could only see what I was wanting by throwing it at others, for their lives, because they were worth more than I was...so fine...give that advice...listen carefully to it as your heart opens for THEM, as you feel that quenching feeling in your chest of wanting to so ease THEIR suffering...

and know those physical signals are for YOU. You craving you. You wanting YOU to soothe, reassure, devise, encourage, support and give attention to...YOU.

Remember the scripture about don't go pointing out the splinter in another's eye because you have a log in your own? I was distracted by the "don't" all the time...so many don'ts, do nots, etc., I felt I couldn't remember all of them. Guess what? God didn't give humans the ability to project without a purpose...remember, anything to an extreme is destructive...good or bad...but projection is a tool we can use...right there in the bible...use it to know that God wanted us to see this tool, know it, and look within when we are helping others...

"Goodness, how short-sighted one can be." NO MORE of this...no more DJing yourself...God can't reach you when you slap yourself...he gave you autonomy and choice, and feels the sting of your slap on your self's face. Stop it. Dance WITH him as you glory that you got something you have wanted to for a long time...let your growth be music to all ears...and respect yourself.

If you DJ self, you will DJ others. You know that.

"Are you saying here that because we both said what the other was doing that upset us is blaming the other for our happiness or unhappiness? Is this why it was scary for you?" How do you own your feelings? "I feel pushed aside when you don't speak to me for a week." Now, there isn't much ownership obvious in that, but a good attempt at an I statement...and believe me, I SAID that...so, newer version, "I have been thinking about how much I love your voice, what it represents, and all the years you said you did punish me with silence. Could that be why I missed your voice this week? Or am I not paying enough attention to myself?"

These are very after-safe conversations, not before. Before safe...DH can hear "You are neglecting and punishing me. I am unfillable, incapable of being happy without your every waking moment focused on me." You know this is an exaggeration, but feelings are easily labeled but difficult to define...they have messy, exaggerated words with them...the kid in us. You cannot control what DH hears or feels; what is really important is you owning your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs to your own Self...and sharing them out loud. Confirming self's existence and your own equal importance. No blame/shame/fill me stuff. Lovingly detach from your DH...and work on the inner stuff. The outer is not in your control.

He sounds like he's on this journey with you, LLG. Get really safe and stop worrying about the needs HE has to fill in you...look to your own, for your own whys and be interesting to yourself...you are VERY interesting, worthy and equal.

"But I wonder if he suppose to ever change this view. Will he ever become more considerate of me?" I don't know...will you EVER become more considerate of yourself? That was harsh and rotten of you to wonder if he will ever change his view...why do that to yourself? Ouch! He shared something about him right now...no future involved, and you weren't offended (because we have to TAKE offense...can't be given)...yet then you sliced and diced you...why?

Read, please, about the hopper again...just wrote it to CompletelyLost (maybe it gets better with time?)...I very much want you to respect yourself and stop giving yourself this license to hurt yourself...maybe because then you can call it pain from the outside, 'cuz it feels the same way?

My DH is now ashamed that he openly mourned OW...when he was really mourning a fantasy...takes some time, that's why it is withdrawal...but he turned read when he said he knew that mourning a fantasy was silly and he was sorry. Awww...six months later. Yet...had I held that as my symbol of what a louse he was...could I have made it six months to hear that? To know that's what he really thought, as he began to allow my deposits in his love bank?

Naww...if I held and nurtured that "I am mourning HER" flung at me, "And (our shrink) says that's OKAY" like a four-year-old telling me he can hit me when he wants to, 'cuz that's okay with my mother...I could have ended our marriage on that phrase....or countless other. I had to get safe, struggle to stay safe, and really set in my mind what is HIS and what is mine.

You can choose either way, or several in between. I hope you choose well, LLG. I believe in you.

LA

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LLG,

I just spent another hour composing my heart out to you...and by deleting the post before this last one...where you were angry, but had already deleted that angry post...mine disappeared.

When I submitted, it said the post you are replying to was deleted...and it wiped it all away.

LA

I feel a little sick...and a lot of deja vu.

I asked you at the beginning to please not delete your posts...because when you do, I feel baffled, confused and lied to...manipulated. I am sensitive to lies by omission. My problem, not yours.

But you agreed...we had an enthusiastic agreement. And you've done it several times now.

Can you see through my eyes? Would it be like looking through your own at your H?

I told you I wished you hadn't deleted your angry post--I didn't get to read a word of it. I would prefer your honesty, that sign of trust, for you to whop on me, the universe and everything, and maybe we could get somewhere. Seems like what you think I think of you is more important than who you are...

Who you are is a gift...the highest gift on earth...being known and knowing...I don't know how you reach yourself without exposing you to you. Please don't ask me how to do that.

I told you in my wiped out post...that you were doing exactly what your H did...this is both your pattern in this marriage of deserving and owed (debt/gratitude); you are bound up in it and it is corroding you both...he chooses to escape in A's and you choose to escape through SD's...growing a garden of resentment, watering with disrespect, heaps of deserving earth and you've got fully blooming entitlement plants...

what a way to live.

Self-loathing gets you there, keeps you there and takes away any avenue OUT of there...and your H loathes himself just as much. I described how he believes he is defective...only shines when you love him and value him...and then you take it away...and he's defective again, worse than before...then proves it to you...when someone else gives him that false shine...he loves to shine...even though he's not a star, but really, a piece of runover tin on hot pavement. He's being crushed, you're being crushed, and you both are choosing to do this...

because you're owed. You've been betraying yourself all your life...but since HE did it, TWICE, oh, he owed you...and you owe yourself nothing...?

You have a finger to point, LLG. It is your grip on this life. I was hoping to change that...say, you're just a gesture away from a wave, to welcome how good your life really is...how his presence is caring, protection, and how yours is also. You both matter. You're both equal...and you're both as safe as you make yourselves.

Only you HAVE to go first. Only catch. I can understand why that hurts you...since you've chosen to do everything for everyone one and be good enough not to be hurt...but they do anyway...

why you?

See why Jonah ran from God? Why you?

Why do you have to?

When we betray ourselves all our lives, at some point, you have to stop doing that. This is your time. It is about you, within you and around you. The only betrayal you can control is your own...and you're pointing that finger away from yourself.

Jonah as angry, scared and he ran...would a whale cruise sound good right now, LLG? From the inside? Middle-ships, lower deck?

This is nothing like what I wrote before. I'm really sad. I said I believe in you. I said you can certainly do this...that you are choosing a poisonous perspective and it will kill your life from the inside out.

Your H feels the same way...you're killing his life...you did this, not him. Both of you are feeling and believing the same darn things...and you won't stop because you are owed.

LA

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That isn't your truth, LLG. It is all you are allowing yourself. I depend on your honesty, your courage...you can do better than that. I know you can.

You can tell me your anger, say "Stop telling me I have to do it all!" And I would say, "Why?" And you could say, "Because I believe I've always been the one who has to do it all and it's always being done to me! My TURN!"

Well...your choice. We've been over your choice, your reward in being the one who gives and gives...and now your Taker may be an unbridled in you. So? Does that make you bad? Unlovable? Unsupportable?

No. That's makes you in Taker mode. Just like your WH was.

Feel what you are feeling...look at your perspective...God's bringing you close through your H's eyes...pain, exasperation...and this has been far away from you because your perspective is he has no right to feel this way.

But he did. Maybe does. Feels awful, doesn't it?

He did that to himself. He withheld his O&H and ate poison.

I want you to stop doing that to yourself. You are precious...God never made no junk--and he certainly didn't start with you.

Ever hear of a reverse ego? You tell yourself you're the worst, baddest, most awful person on the planet...how does that differ from bragging?

LA

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What about now, LLG? You didn't take it seriously before...you don't choose to look at your posts as necessary, informative, crucial to others who long to see themselves here and know they are on a journey, too; no longer alone.

Through your posts, you enrich; because you tear you down doesn't mean you aren't growing someone else. Healing, helping, guiding. You won't get that all you are and you choose is necessary to you and others because that is God's plan. As you are. Anger or no. UnMB-like or no. Just you. You matter. You ripple the waters like everyone else on the planet. YOU DO.

What about a new agreement? One that says if LA stays honest, open, in the face of your disappointment, anger, fear, frustration, entitlement, resentment, DJ, AOs and all...that you will also. Pinkie pact in cyberspace.

Consider the only way you might get to yourself, ditch the loathing, is seeing yourself as you really are...reflected in your thoughts and words. And that God didn't make a horror and wants to wrestle with you to show yourself blessed?

Take yourself seriously. You ask others to. Especially H. You are really asking for all this for yourself, from yourself, but you won't really know that until you get there.

Amends is making new what can't be undone. What are you willing to do, to stick to, to get where you want to be...half of a full-fledged thriving, celebratory marriage...which begins with you being that for yourself...then sharing it?

You have cheated, betrayed, lied to, and disregarded yourself for all your life. You know how I know. It magnifies all the cheating, betrayal, lies and disregard brought to us by an A. The truth of yourself has none of this in you...just your choices.

Conflicted about what you should do. Stop doing. Begin being. Just being. No plans other than finding out what your being is, why you feel so unsafe and vulnerable, confused, and what all those thoughts in your head are saying.

I don't want you to lead your marriage. I want you to BE in your marriage.

I want you to give you safety, acceptance and love.

Would you feel cheated having to do that?

LA

AhHAA!

(picture me flinging my arm grandly)

I read your post...I read your post...(yeah, that goes to the tune of neener, neener)...That's the good part...the bad part is my reply is still gone.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No more neener.

How did I do that? Am I magic? Amazing? I think I'll remain mysterious.

I could quote it here...but I won't without your permission.

This is ANGRY? Ohmygoshgoodgollygeewhillickers...even.

You must get far more expressive with your anger. There wasn't a DJ in the bunch...not even a whisper of an AO..blanket honest truth. Beautifully written.

:::::

Such a shame it isn't here for other hearts to hear.

Thank GOD I got it.

You are sensing your own SD's, keeping an eye on your own DJs...all healthy improvements...not for a moment of condemnation...just for your health, LLG.

I read your words like thoughts in your heads, and watch you catch your own glimmers...you are intuitive, insightful and questing.

I would love to know what stops you...what does the automatic yank-back pay you?

LA

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