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#1578484 01/31/06 07:55 PM
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Hi,
I'm new to this site. My husband and I are expecting our first baby in July. I am a substitute teacher and my husband is a pharmacist. I have always taken pride in how strong our marriage is...but I can feel it weakening.
Here is the problem. My husband and I are on a plan to get completely out of debt. We are on a strict budget and plan to be out of debt in two years. My husbund is a very driven person and has his eyes on the prize. Unfortunately, this drive has put a huge dent in our time together. This week, he will be working approx. 70 hrs. I should feel lucky to have a husband who will work so hard to support his family. Most of the time when he is home, he's watching news, is on the computer, is listening to talk radio. I always feel like I'm interrupting him. When I tell him this, he does better for a day...and then it's back the way it was.
Am I being selfish for not being more grateful? Are my pregnancy hormones getting me out of whack? I just really miss my husband. Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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...Unfortunately, this drive has put a huge dent in our time together. This week, he will be working approx. 70 hrs. I should feel lucky to have a husband who will work so hard to support his family. Most of the time when he is home, he's watching news, is on the computer, is listening to talk radio. I always feel like I'm interrupting him. When I tell him this, he does better for a day...and then it's back the way it was....

First of all, welcome to MB. Wish it could have been under better circumstances. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

To your query: His behavior is perfectly natural. And it is completely natural for you to feel neglected.

Grey in his Mars/Venus book devotes one of the earlier chapters to this. He calls it that the man “goes to his cave” to mull over his problems. He exhibits it by focusing on news, team sports, etc. It is his way of dealing with the stress of his life (similar, Grey says, to women’s way of dealing with stress by venting). The wife is resentful that he is there physically, but that he is totally oblivious to her and the world around him.

Grey’s suggestion to the woman is not to freak out, to be assuring. There really is nothing that a woman can do to help her “Martian” come out of his cave. He has to come out of it himself. Trying to help seems to a woman logical and a very loving thing to do for him, that it is totally wrong.

It's OK. Just be there for him.


Me: 50. W: 50. Happily married since 1993. 3 kids.
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Thanks! It is good to know it's not something I am doing wrong. He has been under alot of stress with all the hours he works. He's asked me to only take sub requests. That gives me more time to take care of things at home...to make his life easier when he is at home. Do guys ever come out of their "cave?" or is this something I will just have to learn to live with? What is a good way to handle this? Unfortunately, his favorite radio show is now being aired in the evenings. So last night, at dinner time (the only one we've had together this week) he was listening to the radio show the whole time. i really tried to bring this to his attention whithout sounding like a nag...but don't know if I suceeded. I said something like, "That's great you can listen to Dave in the evenings when your at work or on the road. But when we're together, three's a crowd." Was that a nag or a good way to handle it? I did not use a whiney voice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Thanks!

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I think there's a difference between a guy that's in the middle of trying to relax/blow off steam and stress from work and a guy that's neglecting his wife.

He might also be just a tiny bit scared and stressed about the responsibilities of the coming baby. When my wife was pregnant, I was extremely scared about the financial responsibilities and if I would be a good father. I pondered it often and was very worried inside (in addition to the excitement of it). But in front of my wife, I tried to be as upbeat as possible. I didn't want to focus on my fears in front of her. I wanted her to feel content and relaxed and worry-free. So his internal stress may be eating him up to the point where he's becoming oblivious to his surroundings. As AG said, talking about it won't help him much though. Questioning him too much can be seen as just more stress. I think the important thing to do is to give him the opportunity to talk about his fears if he has them but not try to pry it out of him.

As for your concern, you feel ignored and neglected; tuned out. I do think a quick sit down conversation about this would be fine. Let him know that you understand that he's extremely busy and that you appreciate his hard work. But that he's been tuning you out a little. That you can handle it and understand it for a limited amount of time-- while he's working crazy hours-- but that you don't want this to be your life-style from now on. That you want quality time with him for at least an hour or two a night. You guys might be able to come to a quick agreement... a place where he has permission to dive head first into work but promises to cut back on his hours and pay you and the baby attension and time at a later, set date.

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Thank-you. We've had a few talks about this. It seems we will come to an agreement, such as if H works 2 extra midnight shifts, he'll only take one extra 2nd job shift. Or he'll take one midnight and 3 extras, etc. He's already given up working Sundays, to which I am thankful, but he keeps backsliding on what we've agreed on. The problem is the financial guru we've been following is all for work, work, work until you're completely out of debt. I feel like I'm standing in the way of the plan when I complain. I've typed a letter for him, but don't know if it will improve things or make things worse. I will post the letter and get some opinions before I give it to him.

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Okay, here is the letter:

Hi Honey,
I just want to start off my saying that you are the love of my life. I feel so blessed to have you. I also want you to know that I appreciate everything you do for us. I want you to let me know if there are any needs of yours that I am not meeting.
I am writing this letter because I am feeling us growing further apart and it scares me. I don’t feel like our marriage is in danger of ending….but I feel as if it is in danger of becoming mediocre…
I realize we are trying to get out of debt and we need to have gazelle intensity. However, did you notice in the clip of the gazelles how the mother just ran off and left her baby to fend for itself? I sometimes feel like that baby gazelle. I feel that you’re so focused that you can’t see me. I guess I was just really hurt when you told me your schedule and you chose to work extra hours every day. I know you are doing your best to provide for us and you are working your butt off to do it. And I so admire you for that. I just need to know you approach our relationship with the same gazelle intensity. I realize this is only temporary, but a lot of damage can be done in a short amount of time. I scared if we keep drifting, we are not going to be able to pick up where we left off.
I’m trying to be more understanding of the methods guys use to relieve stress; politics, news, sports, etc. Also, I’m trying to make your life more stress free when you come home. But what happens when our relationship gets 30 minutes of attention and the other things get the rest. Those 30 minutes are usually during supper….and now Dave Ramsey’s radio program is on in the evenings. As a guy, I realize you do not have the same needs as me, so undivided attention is not as important. As a girl, undivided attention is at the top of my list of needs. I know I’ve seemed really grouchy and critical lately. It is because I am feeling all this and want you to know, but don’t know how to say it (let alone find the uninterrupted time to say it), so I hold it in and it comes out as a nag. That is why I’m writing this letter. My intention is not to hurt you. My intention is to let you know how I’m feeling, so it doesn’t come out in little nags anymore. I want our time to be quality time, not nagging time.
Maybe it will help if I tell you some of my needs rather than expecting you to read my mind:
• I need your undivided attention….not all the time….but more than a few minutes a day. This is attention without something in the background. This attention does not include television, books, radio, or other people. It’s just you and me doing something together.

• I need to know you value our relationship as much as you value politics/Dave/sports boards. I see you pumping all your attention into these things, but when I asked if you’d read His/Needs Her/Needs, you read the first few chapters and went on to a political book. I know you saw it as reading what held your interest. I saw it as you not wanting to learn what our marriage needed to be great. Maybe we should make a deal. I read Football for Dummies if you read His/Needs Her/Needs &#61514;.

• I need to know my interests are as important as your interests. When I say I would like to do something, I feel like I am being looked down on. You let out a little snort or make some comment about how ridiculous it is. I like community celebrations, fairs, rides in the country. I would like it if you would want to participate instead of putting down the town or the people, the rip-off of playing a carnival game, how much gas is wasted when looking at Christmas lights. I feel like I make great efforts to be involved in what you like. I’ve seen every Star Wars movie at least 3 times, I go to every football game and have learned a lot of the rules, I am going to teach an FPU class with you, I even listen to Sean Hannity sometimes so I can have a political conversation with you.

I don’t want this letter to hurt you, I just want you to be aware of the way I’m feeling. So I can stop the nagging and be a good wife to you. You deserve a good wife and we deserve a good marriage. I love you so much and it hurts to see us drifting apart. I want us to fix this before the baby comes, because children make it even harder to meet each others needs. Please let me know what your needs are and let me know if there is a way I can better meet them. I want to make you happier than you ever thought possible. I love you.

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Feed back on the letter: I like it. It shows that you are trying, it shows him that you care.

A couple of points: I think that I understand that you want to spend more time with him. You certainly have a right to expect it as a marriage partner. However, please try to find stuff that you like to do together. There are things that you should do together, there are things that you should do by yourself without him, and there are things that he should do by himself without you.

Do NOT try to attempt to go to football games just because he goes to them. This may be in his mind things that he likes to do himself, and where having you along actually detracts from his enjoinment of the game. Your offer to read Football for Dummies has no traction: he most likely does NOT want you to read that book anyway. I know I would resent it if my wife would try to join me doing those things that I like to do myself (likewise, she would not like it if I were to join her doing things that she likes to do herself). It just feels like you are encrouching in his freedom. I am sorry that it sounds so harsh.

My point is that when a woman tries "to enter the cave" (as Grey calls it), she will "meet the dragon" (H's fury) and get hurt. You most certainly have a right to spend time together, but you do not have the right to enter his cave.

As far as him putting things down (Christmas tree lights, carnival, etc.), it is just an exhibition of his frustration that you drag him to these events. Yes, it is very unfair to you, and I empathize. Go to these events yourself. If he wants to go or not is not relevant. Do it to enjoy the event, not go there just to do something with him.

As far as what you can do together? Prepare for the baby. Congratulations, BTW! (I am sorry that I forgot to congratulate you earlier on this). He needs to get his stuff together, and be interested in the raising of the child. You should try to have him getting used to the idea of being a daddy. Otherwise, when your nesting instincts hit you in May or June, he'll freak out when he finds you at 2:00 one morning painting the ceiling in baby's room.


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(((TSL)))

Congrats and welcome to marriage builders. If you've read through HN/HN, please take some time to read through all the basic concepts on this site.

I see through the writing of this letter that you are trying to understand everything and convey it to your hubby in a 'safe' manner. While at first glance it may appear that you did so, I must tell you there is a strong undertone in it that will likely not have a good impact on him. When I read it their are several places where you've basically said "Well I've done this so you should do that".. I don't feel that most people take kindly to that message and quite frankly it's not a competition and we shouldn't be keeping score.

Then at the end of the letter it feels like you are putting condition on you being a good wife. If he does X, Y, & Z, then you will not nag and you will be a good wife, again, I don't think that's the message you'd like to convey.

That being said, I do think you have some wonderful points and maybe just need some fine tuning. I think y'all could benefit greatly from doing the Emotional Needs, Love Buster, and Recreational Surveys. The recreation seems to be a sticking point with y'all, in the survey you'll see activities that you haven't even thought about doing together and the cool thing is that when y'all fill it out independently, you'll find you each have some similar interests. That's a place to build upon....

Anywho, I wouldn't recommend sending the letter as written. I would work on taking out the tones I suggested above.


Hugz, Thoughtz, & Prayerz

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TSL,

Welcome to MB. LostHusband recommended I pop over to your thread here. I see a written letter to your H. Before you send it (if you haven't already that is), here's some general rules of communication I always try and stick to:

1) 1st person only statements - minimize the use of the word "you". Sometimes it's unavoidable, and innocent, just ensure that any/all "you" statements are not accusational in nature, as well as the overall tone of the communication, needs to somehow deliver both the problem and perhaps some suggested places to start in so far as a solution is concerned.

2) THINK

T = is it True?
H = does it Help?
I = 1st person I
N = is it Necessary?
K = is it Kind?

If what is being said doesn't meet the above criteria, reevaluate, reword, and/or eliminate the sentence at hand.

I'll try and find some time to perhaps reword some of what you've written though this is my W's birthday weekend so I don't know that I'll be able to find the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regarding your overall issue, curious, I am somewhat of a financial buff, though I work in information technology, what system are you using to get out of debt? There has to be a balance and some freedom to have extracurricular activities otherwise you'll find yourself feeling "limited" and frustrated in that you have no money to do anything fun in life. Just curious if your current financial limitations might actually also be contributing to your dissatisfaction in your M?

Overall, make sure to read the concepts on the MB website, especially the Policy of Undivided Attention and how important it is for you and your H to consistently spend time together in order to continue to feel connected and "in love". It is good that you have realized that things are not "right" relatively early on in your M. Most folks around here don't find the MB website until the situation is far worse, kudos to you in this regard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


God Bless,

HitchHiker

All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein

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Thanks for the input. I've decided not to give him the letter. You guys are right. I think it would only make things worse and in a way it was an attempt at getting my needs met....perhaps not the best attempt.
And the whole football game thing. I wish it were me entering his cave and it was something he enjoys doing alone. However, we have season tickets with his family and we put on a big tailgate and all that. If I can't go to a game, he is disappointed. Football is one of his passions and he has expressed that he is happy when he can share that with me. If I do not go to the games, I will hardly see him at all during football season.
I guess I kind of am keeping score and need to work on that. It is so hard to find things we both like to do. Our interests are completely opposite and I usually end up caving in just to spend time with him. I will download the surveys and fill them out. Thanks.
As for our financial plan. It's Dave Ramsey's Total money makeover. It's a great plan. He just doesn't go into the how to focus on a marriage and the process of getting out of debt at the same time. My H is very goal oriented, which is one of the reasons I love him. However, when he shoots for a goal (gettting out of debt) he gets tunnel vision and tends not to see other things going on around him. The website for the financial plan is this www.mytotalmoneymakeover.com
So, this is my plan.
1.) I've already let my H know that it hurts us when he works overtime every day. He has decided not to take a job
Saturday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
2.) I will reread HN/HN and ask my husband if he will fill out the surveys with me. Also, I've started reading the Men are from mars....book.
3.) I will check out the other surveys on this site.
4.) I will sit down with my husband and make a list of things we like to do together and things we like to do separately...and maybe plan a few of those things we like to do together.
I hope I am on the right track. Thanks for the advice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Thanks for the input. I've decided not to give him the letter. You guys are right. I think it would only make things worse and in a way it was an attempt at getting my needs met....perhaps not the best attempt.

I think it's important that you clearly communicate how you feel as best possible. If you feel a letter is the best way to accomplish that, i.e. if you may feel unsafe speaking directly to your H about difficult issues, afraid that you may react negatively, then a letter may be a good route to consider at least.

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And the whole football game thing. I wish it were me entering his cave and it was something he enjoys doing alone. However, we have season tickets with his family and we put on a big tailgate and all that. If I can't go to a game, he is disappointed. Football is one of his passions and he has expressed that he is happy when he can share that with me. If I do not go to the games, I will hardly see him at all during football season.
I guess I kind of am keeping score and need to work on that. It is so hard to find things we both like to do. Our interests are completely opposite and I usually end up caving in just to spend time with him. I will download the surveys and fill them out. Thanks.

There is one survey designed to help you two figure out recreational activities that you can both share and help meet each other's EN's. In general, MB states that in many cases, men need RC and SF EN's met, and women need Affection and Conversation EN's met. Quite obviously your involvement in your H's love of football is meeting his RC EN. Ideally, you both want to figure out ways where you're killing multiple birds with one stone, i.e. your primary EN's get met by sharing certain activities together. I'm not sure what your primary EN's are, perhaps you can enlighten me in this respect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So if your H really wants you to meet his RC need by attending football games, then perhaps you can enthusiastically do so, however after the game he then does something specifically to meet your primary EN's enthusiastically, whatever that activity may be.

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As for our financial plan. It's Dave Ramsey's Total money makeover. It's a great plan. He just doesn't go into the how to focus on a marriage and the process of getting out of debt at the same time. My H is very goal oriented, which is one of the reasons I love him. However, when he shoots for a goal (gettting out of debt) he gets tunnel vision and tends not to see other things going on around him. The website for the financial plan is this www.mytotalmoneymakeover.com

Interesting, not familiar with that specific plan. How does it deal with recreational activity during the process of paying down debt? Does it account for this at all? I tend to favor approaches that preach balance, like 50 percent of income goes toward "needs", 30 percent toward "wants", 20 percent toward savings (this includes retirement contributions, both voluntary and forced - so 20% isn't as much as people think when you add forced/voluntary retirement into the equation). If your "needs" (i.e. any contractual obligations, mortgages, liens, car loans, leases, food/household expenses, etc.) are greater than 50% of your take home pay, then chances are your finances are out of balance and you're feeling it on multiple levels. One book that covers this concept fairly well is "All Your Worth" though it's got some pitfalls/areas of disagreement I generally agree with the approach written in this book.

Quote
So, this is my plan.
1.) I've already let my H know that it hurts us when he works overtime every day. He has decided not to take a job
Saturday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like you have a need for quality time with your H.

Quote
2.) I will reread HN/HN and ask my husband if he will fill out the surveys with me. Also, I've started reading the Men are from mars....book.
3.) I will check out the other surveys on this site.
4.) I will sit down with my husband and make a list of things we like to do together and things we like to do separately...and maybe plan a few of those things we like to do together.
I hope I am on the right track. Thanks for the advice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like a good start. Keep plugging away. We're all here to support you. You may want to consider posting over in the Emotional Needs area in the future simply because it sounds like much of the issue here surrounds unmet EN's.


God Bless,

HitchHiker

All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein

INTJ married to an ENFJ

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