syntheticskin game

2long, slight t/j again.

I remember when a poster told Bob that when he drove into the tree he should have done the job properly.

Do you remember that Bob?

*************Deleted*************

hey 2L.

What you gonna do mate ? This is knowingly disrespectful to you, wilfully ignorant of the ways of recovering marriages and IMO smugly prepared for you to soak it up for another few years. Unreconstructed WS will take what you give 'em plus a yard IME.

So what you gonna do ? You're running out of sand to draw lines in mate.

Either you're OK with contact or not. You either recieve this stuff your your W as openly disrespectful to you or not. Its your boundaries that are important not ours.

I talked to Squid about you the other day. Squid is REALLY interested in astronomy and I wand to buy her a small 'scope for use at our holiday home in Wales. Its 30 miles from the nearest town, in the black mountains, and the sky is SO clear it seems as deep as it is wide. I said I'd ask 2long. She said " Why 2long" ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All blessings mate.

I half remember Jen. I had my share of slatings. Remember "Blessed Time" ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

2Long was great for me back then. I never dreamed I'd overtake him in this journey.... Ah well. His silly, silly W. * sigh *

Yep, that's something we're ALL in agreement on.

2long, thanks for posting the SKM message. I found her
words as a former WW very encouraging so I did a search and found her complete recovery story: SKM Chronicles.

2Long - seems like things got a tad "off course" since your response to me. I'm going to try to answer your questions as best I can, but I feel a little handicapped because I have to leave God out of the picture. So if I stumble a bit, ask for clarification or state the "opposing case" or say whatever you have on your mind.

First and foremost, Christian or anything else, is the issue of Personal Standards. You know, those things that we will not allow ourselves to do TO others. It is your wife's chosen (consciously or otherwise) set of Standards that are in conflict with your chosen set of Boundaries (marriage does NOT allow for another man to be involved in any way). This, as you know, has been the crux of many a discussion I have had with many folks here on MB, so I will not "plow old ground" on that issue. You KNOW what I have said before and you know what is applicable to your life and the life of your wife.

Having said that, I will try to answer and address your questions to me as best I can under the circumstances.

Any clue why the change? Was it a gradual realization on her part, or did it happen suddenly?

Yes, I have a "clue." In our case, it's the result of our both trying to walk closer to God and to "let go" of things that are NOT in accord with such walk. Why has it taken so long? So it was not "sudden," but took over 3.5 years in part because surrendering to God is a process and in part because a Class II affair takes a long time to unentangle from. That's because CLASS II, long term, involved, affairs are the HARDEST to "get over" and "get unentangled." Women, in particular, tend to "invest" heavily, emotionally, in the affair and it takes a long time to get all of the "tendrils" out. But, by the same token, when a woman reinvests that emotion in YOU, AND comes to realize just how BAD her prior affair was, the bond to you becomes much stronger, just like a broken bone is stronger at the break than it was before. But the healing takes TIME, and we are not "bones." WE, the Betrayed Spouses, are dealing with OUR emotions, carrying the "load" of much of recovery EVEN THOUGH it hurts (especially in the case of contact) like the dickens. We ENDURE those things because of two primary reasons. First, because we judge the contact as "stupid" and not an attempt to rekindle the affair (part of the tendrils that have not been "undone" yet). Second, because we LOVE our spouse despite all the "unfairness" and hurt. That IS why we are even attempting recovery instead of getting a divorce (in essence cutting off our limb because it offends us).

So what are some of the thoughts that you can ponder and perhaps discuss with your wife? Let me offer you a few. Take out a hammer and see if there might be a "Fossil" of interest inside some of these "rocks" that you might find helpful.

Marriage IS fidelity. "I choose you and NO others." "Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself ONLY unto you." There is physical adultery and there is mental adultery. "ALL OTHERS" and "ONLY" are definitive terms, not open to equivocation or interpretation. One either accepts them or rejects them. Anything else is lingering "fogtalk."

If one chooses to view infidelity as a sickness (as opposed to a sin against God's command, for example), then to be "true to the analogy"," FULL health is not restored until the sickness is completely eliminated. For the BS, this is where the part of the marriage vow of fidelity and endurance comes in .... "in sickness and in health." Recovery of a marriage can be likened to recovery from a serious, life threatening, illness.

Some sicknesses that we expose ourselves to, or acquire by carelessness and poor standards, can be CURED and some cannot. A lot of the difference comes in WHAT medicines and treatments ARE available for attempted use in correcting and treating the problem. Thus, we can cure syphillus and measles today, but we cannot cure Gentital Warts (inconvenient) or AIDS/HIV (eventually fatal after taking a huge physical and emotional toll). Symptoms can be controlled, up to a point, but FULL health that doesn't affect you or others is NOT possible without effective treatment that eliminates the causitive agent of the sickness, not just one that controls the symptoms.

2Long, unless your wife is a blithering idiot (which I doubt), she KNOWS that contact is wrong and that it hurts you. She, like my wife, will say they are "sorry," even admit that it was "wrong" to have contact and that they will try to not do it again. But habits die hard. Entangled, long term affairs, take a long time to get fully unentangled. That's why we know going in that it may take as long to recover the marriage as it took the WS to get into and out of the affair. Thus, I knew, and assented to the possibility, that it could well take my marriage 6 years to recover.

Let me say categorically that assenting to the "recovery plan and timeframe" does NOT mean that I like it, am happy with it, or that it does NOT hurt when the "backwards" steps happen. I would "prefer" to be one of the "lucky ones" who's recovery took "less than the average."

We also have to make an assessment of our spouse's progress overall, and we have to decide how much WE can endure. For me, the time came to put it this way, "I forgive you, I have forgiven you, and I will continue to forgive you. But God does not demand that I live with you if you are not willing to forsake ALL others. This man is NOT a friend. He sought to destroy our marriage and harm our entire family for his own selfish desires. I will NOT have him a part of this family anymore. If you cannot end all contact with him and his entire family, forever, then I will love you from afar but I will not live with you and be constantly looking over my shoulder. I will exercise my right to a divorce, as much as I don't want to. Marriage IS one man and one woman, only. That is my belief, and that is my "requirement." So the "choice" is now in your lap. I give you control of it. If you want the marriage, the contact ends forever. If not, and if I find out there has been another contact, I will take THAT as your decision to end the marriage."

2Long, ultimatums are dangerous. They can be misused and they can be rendered impotent. Be deadly serious and certain in your own mind that you will enforce the consequence(s) that are attendant to the ultimatum, no matter how much THAT might also hurt.

If, in fact, the contacts have been initiated by RM, then his wife needs to be made aware that he is contacting YOUR wife. You know that if the shoe were on the other foot, you would want to know. SHE has a vested interest in seeing that HER husband honors HIS vows of fidelity to HER. So enlist her aid where he and your wife are "weak."

{{{{{ 2Long }}}}}

Take my hand and take some of my energy if you feel youself on "low battery." I have a power source that is unlimited.

God bless.

2long, you've been unbelievably patient.

My H was in an EA for about 8-10 years, remember? The first couple were not hurtful for me, because I believed him that it was a "friendship."

In the time after I believe to question, hurt, feel rejection, there was awful pain and humiliation. Finally there was too much of all that for me to keep any self-respect. I had to end our marriage.

He was totally shocked when the process server came to the door with the papers. He fainted. Twice. Onto his face.
In the back of my mind was the idea "Didn't you believe me when I told you I had hit the wall?"

You have earned your way out of this marriage, you know that. You deserve respect. Any man who shows up at an MB get-together spattered in paint from beautifying his home is really serious about his marriage. Your wife is just silly.

If you do end your marriage eventually, I wonder if she will be as shocked as my WS was.

When I saw 2long's hands in the photos I thought there was something wrong with them that I shouldn't mention.

LMAO

Sorry to read the latest news, 2long.

Some people are devoid of the Empathy Gene (I've recently come to grips with that fact). Does your W truly understand just how much she's hurting you? And if she does, does it hurt her (to the core!) to know that?

Hello 2long,

Refresh my memory.

Last year -- was it on the 4th of July, or Labor Day? or extended from one to the other? -- you drew some sort of line in the sand and issued an ultimatum.

I honestly don't remember what happened after that. Or if there were any more ultimata. And what was the content of the ultimatum?

What's happened since?

I just think old friend that there will be some who "get it" and some who do not "get it"...period.

she is one.

and how wierd about her...and very very disrespectful to you btw.

you'e a mb champion.

and you have done all you can do.

and there will be a day when you say enough.

she just doesn't think you'll do it since you've over the last few months/years said that "this is it if you don't end it"..kinda stuff.

she thinks she can slink by...and through...with intermittent contact.

at least the OM is remarried...how'd she feel about that huh? should make her feel a bit weird huh? that she's not best in om's books?

what gets me thru all this...is some ws think they and their needs are paramount...they are cakeeaters period.

they may give up the cake...but switch to pie..or a teeny slice of muffin here and there thinking that the bs will not notice.

time to call in the pro's on this one.

but in the end, it is UP TO YOU AS TO WHEN TO "CALL TIME" and stop the marriage cpr or not. it is up to you.

and it's up to you to allow your ww to continue nibbling on pies, cakes, and maybe some mini muffins here and there.

I remember when i first was single...right immediately AFTER THE DIVORCE...my xh didn't get it I am single. He is "getting it" now...it's finally hitting the man square in the face. he uses any lame excuse to find out what I am up to...calling to ask if I am going to party tonight so could he babysit my son? anything for contact now. as I have had enough. I allow no peeps into my personal/private life..and the man's been doing drive by's in front of my home to see if lights are on...he's gotten wacked out and uses my son's bedtime to be an excuse for control and contact.

when you lay down law however you choose to do so with your ww...whether a final ultimatum, or separation or cause a huge d day with om and his new w and blow them up some more, she will freak out. but when she sees you're not dealing with her anymore, she will NOT like it.

when they think you're still there...comfortably there...they're fine. when they finally "get it" that they are loosing their bs...once and for all, they do indeed lose it and freak out.

again, ALL IS UP TO YOU as I see it. but you'll know if you can deal with more time to give her, or if this is enough...or if you're close to enough.

I just wish ws's would "get it" and understand that there can be NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER FOR LIFE with the OP. PERIOD. NO NEGOTIATIONS..NOTHING..ZILCH...

IT'S THE MARRIAGE OR THE OP.

A bright person can't be this snobby. It's got to be hor$e$h!+.

I'll tell you something 2long. When I think back on my experience, I figure I handled things very well. But I'll tell you something else. And I know enough about where you're coming from that you may doubt the soundness of this plan... but if what happened to me were to happen again, my response would look different. Want to know how?

The day my W came to me and said she was having an A, she'd have to leave. And she could end the A and come back, but if I ever found out about more contact, she'd have to go. She'd know this, because she would know me well enough to believe that I meant it.

I don't think your W believes you mean it. I might be wrong. But if it's possibly true, then I think you're in the unfair position of having to prove to yourself that you mean it.

She doesn't want to be your wife. She wants to be your girlfriend. So if that's okay with you, divorce her and date her. But this is foolhardy, being married to someone who can't be bothered to make sure she doesn't hurt you.

GC

2Long,

I'm quoting graycloud's quote. "My W insisted again that she's unique, her si2ation is unique, and that we're intelligent people and so we don't need or can't get anything useful out of further counseling."

She is sure of her IQ. Her EQ is impaired. Which is more important in relationships?

Everything I've seen of your EQ says it is high. This type of self-delusion has served her well for too long. Uhm, 2Long. Aiding and abetting is illegal, isn't it?

Waiting for your reply to that line you drew last year...we do remember that.

((((2Long))))

LA

P.S. 2BNormal...Pep came at me in my first post and called my sitch "an emotional soup." Didn't stop me, but it hurt. That was good. Made me figure out what emotional soup was and to not serve it for dinner.

2Long,

My friend. We have been around this mess together for awhile. And I know that YOU know what tools you have available to maybe change this situation. I again defer to you, as this is your marriage. But you know what I have to say. I think FH has been dead on here. And Pep stating that you should expose. The OM's new wife is not gonna allow this kind of contact. If yoru wife cant shut down contact, the OM's wife will!

But, again...you have known for awhile what Dr. Harley and others will tell you. You have seen it all here, as I have...over the years. So, I will also pray that you find your way through this.

One short note...

For those that did not like Pep's posts, let me add something here. One thing I have seen over the years is that WSs and FWSs come on here and dont understand the often harsh tone we use sometimes on here with other BSs. Well, in many cases...it is needed!!

I remember back during my wife's affair, after a very strong post by both Just Learning and Asylyne to me...a new poster posted to me (she had just ended her affair months earlier, I believe)...and she was so concerned about me being beaten up by these other posters. Wha tshe could nto understand was this was exactly what I needed! Also, she could not understand when other posters basically came in and told her that she needed to hold back a little, as I didnt need that kind of advice right then. I needed the butt kicking!

BSs and WSs are DIFFERENT!!! We require different things during this. For a BS, this is war! But also, the pains and the damages to ourselves are different and require different healing.

That is why we dont allow fellow BSs to wallow here. To someone just coming on here, it will sound "insensitive." But if they stick around for awhile, they will see that it is needed.

Ask Dorry and some of the other FWWs that have started their own thread on here. Why did they do that? Because they needed a place to discuss this stuff, outside of the battle that the BSs are waging. They realized that they didnt quite understand at first. So what they did was sit back and learn what it is to be a BS, how it feels. What motivates us. Just like the BS studies the WS Handbook to find out why a WS does what they do.

One last thing on this. 2Long has been here a long time! Many of us have been friends with him for years. We have been thru our battles together. And we may be very protective of each other, as we have really begun to know each other quite well.

I know it is rough sometimes for WSs and FWSs to come on here. Maybe there should be a sign up outside this blog that can educate a newby on what it is like in here and why some things are done the way they are.

I do agree that Pep is Pep!! You will always know exactly what is on her mind. But even to those that questioned her here, you will find that she will very readily jump on your thread and give you the encouragement (or butt kicking) that is needed. And if you are here long enough, you will find no more loyal friend!

So, as I let 2Long get back to his thread...

In His arms.

here's where I am drawing blanks...

are you saying that you often ask if they are in contact..and she lies....saying no...and today brought on some type of relief of burdoning her truth..

Or
Is there never ever asking by you ...and you just assuming there is no contact....

has there ever been even verbalized commitment to no contact...
or commitment to disclosure if such occurs...

or is there mostly don't ask don't tell.....


The one session she had with my IC in March of 2002, where he asked her if she could promise 2 be physically faithful 2 me, and she said she could (because he didn't think she would say yes if he'd asked her 2 be emotionally faithful 2 me) -

2long...are you saying you have a counselor who is afraid to ask the real questions because he thinks you and he won't like the answers.....?

part of me says you are most happy living exactly how you have been september till today.....

can't address or change anything she does/doesn't do
she aint 'here'

but you are here 2long....

when did she ever agree to no contact
and what was your plan if breached...

can you continue in this relationship in a don't ask don't tell mode...
some people do...
and do very well .....well...and some just OK...

what is your tolerance level...

it's your choice...
no one can tell you what to choose...but you need to know what you can live with....
and the truth is in my opinion she will always keep in some type of contact with this OP....

Why do you think out of the blue today she began lamenting all your evil ways on parade today...
where's the trigger to blame you..

ARK

As an FWW who carried out most of her A with FOM on-line, I can say with absolute certainty that cutting oneself off completely from FOM is the only way to go. It is not easy, but it is essential and 2long's W has had plenty of time to do it. I faltered, too -- recovery did not progress until I stopped faltering.

When the A commenced, both FOM and I wanted to continue to be friends no matter what happened <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> , but now I know that's impossible. So I deleted all photos and phone numbers, blocked e-mail addresses, and basically have taken some extraordinary steps to prevent further contact. I'm glad he lives in another part of the country so even the chance of "accidental" contact is minimal.


So do I, but I don't think Pep's post was that bad compared to what others have posted to FWSs. I've seen stuff that's a lot worse in the year and a half I've been here.

I also thought that particular bad advice tasted exactly like what Sarie/BlessedTime would say .... in fact .... I remain watchful/suspicious in that regard. THAT Sarie person has effected me in a negative way ... and I remain guarded for her return to MB ... as I feel she will re-surface from time-to-time. She is one of the People Of The Lie Scott Peck warned us about ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I am an amateur at this stuff compared to the rest of these posters, and I don’t know much about your story, but your sign in date tells me that things haven’t changed for a long time.

Someone here has gotta change for things to change.

We can’t change other people.

We can only change ourselves.

If people don’t change it’s usually because of ignorance, fear, or lack of desire. We all know you aren’t ignorant; you don’t seem to lack desire either.

Are you afraid of something?

Maybe you can start there.

Courage to you.