Well, it is believable, ac2ally.

We had a good talk this am.

W has had "a few" contacts with Rat Meat since September, when he told her he was remarried.

She believes she'll never have another "relationship" with him, but she doesn't want 2 lose his friendship.

I told her that he must go, or I want a DV.

We talked for a 2ple hours, but that was the gist of the convo.

She cried alone for a while, but she's off 2 the grocery store now. I'm working on the upstairs bathroom, except for this post.

I'm doing okay.

But I don't have any hope left.

-ol' 2long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

((((hug))))

I am so sorry, I kmow what a disappointment this is for you.

Having contact would be unacceptable for me too.

Hopefully, she will choose the marriage over whatever friendship she can have with RM. Then..then maybe real recovery can happen.

Did you have to find out yourself or was she forthcoming with the info herself?

2L,

I am so sorry to hear this. She just does not understand does she? Well, if he is more important to her that is what it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It is really sad but perhaps she will only understand when you are gone, which is really a shame. I just wish I could offer you something of use to make this situation better.

Hang in there 2L,

JL

Are you truly prepared to back it up? You've been at this a long, long time. Probably 2 long.

If your wife thinks you're just posturing again, you'll continue your standoff.

Low

I know that you told her that she forfeited the friendship option when she chose to have the affair...


2long, I am sorry to "hear" this, I really, really am...Hugs to you...



Mrs. Wondering

2Long, I hope you'll pardon my intrusion on your thread, but I just wanted to give you a little hug {{{{{2Long}}}}} based in my own experience of what continued contact feels like to the BS, especially after multiple "I won't do it agains."

If it helps, my wife used to say that she thought of her OM as a "friend," but that nothing would ever happen beyond that. To me, ANY contact is anathema, totally unacceptable, and something I will not "accept." To me, he CANNOT be a "friend," that line was irrecoverably crossed when they chose to willingly attack my marriage. After this last contact a couple of weeks ago, we had a "final" talk where I told her "him or me, but no more 'chances,' no more 'forgiving.'" I asked her if she still thought of him as a friend, and THIS TIME, for the first time in almost 4 years she said, "No."

2Long, there IS hope, but a lot will depend upon you, your ability to "keep trying," and your assessment of her contact as being "dumb" or a way to continue the affair. If it's willful and a not based in her weakeness but in an active attempt to start up, or continue, the affair, then it's time for either a total separation or a divorce.

In my very humble opinion, there is NO room in ANY marriage for anyone other than husband, wife, and God. Since we differ on the God issue, the rest still holds as true as gravity. Marriage IS between ONLY one Man and one Woman, period, end of discussion of the sanctity of marriage.

God bless and strengthen you at this time. I wish I could offer more, but I know the limits of human strength and willpower in the face of such emotional devastation.

I'm sorry...you deserve better..much better

{{2long}} I do hope you take FH's post to heart. IMHO he has done a great job with his FWW. I am so sorry you really have had a long, long walk on this rocky road.

2,

I'm very sorry to hear this. It probably should not be a surprise. She's lived this double life for so long that it's deeply ingrained in her.

You are a good man, 2. If you choose to live your life alone, you will make a good life of it. But I suspect that the ladies will be on you like a dog on a knockworst. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> um... I mean ... Like a flower on a bee... or well anyway, you won't have to be alone if you don't want to. I know you really don't envision a new lady in your life - but you are a worthy guy - and you have choices downstream.

-AD

I'm sorry too 2long, and I am so surprised. Wish I had something really wonderful to say, but I think I'll just post some lyrics for ya.

""I'm becoming less defined, as days go by
Fading away, well you might say I'm losing focus
Kind of drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself
Sometimes, I think I can see right through myself...Less concerned, about fitting into the world
Your world that is, cause it doesn't really matter anymore
None of this sh... really matters anymore
Yes, I am alone, but then again I always was
As far back as I can tell, I think maybe it's because
Because you were never really real to begin with
I just made you up to hurt myself

There is no you, there is only me
There is no you, there is only me
There is no f'ing you, there is only me
There is no f'ingg you, there is only me"

NIN

2long - I think FH's description is pertinent and touches a bit on my thoughts before I read all these responses.

What does she consider a "friend"? Is it the same definition most of us use, or as maybe with FH's W and your W, "friend" represents a fanciful memory of a yearning non-personified? In other words, is it the idea rather than a specific person?

That said, I know it's futile to try to get inside the head of a WS not fully detached from the fantasy.

Part of me is tempted to suggest that this potentially simply latent yearning is harmless, but I know it represents the whole episode to you and as such, as with FH, it cannot be harmless. Only you can make that decision.

If you draw the line in the sand, you must follow through with it for your own peace of mind.

WAT

Hi 2long -

No advice, just an opinion, but contact would be unacceptable in my book, also. They have already proved they can't be "just friends." Continued contact, even few and far between, is cake-eating, IMVHO. I am so sorry about your disappointment.

God bless,
Rose

Wow, I have read a little of your story and most recently your attempts at further recovery.

These LTA's really are a different animal, like I've read on other threads. Too painful for words. I'm sorry you have to go through this again.

I never thought I would ever give up hope for 2long and Mrs. 2long, but I really think now is the time to draw the line. Not for saving the marriage alone, but for your sanity as well 2long.

Even you can only take so much, and I agree that the line should be drawn...for you, and so she knows exactly what the rules will be from now on.

And as WAT said, the rules will be cut in stone...it is the only way at this point.

Her desire to keep RM as a friend has been a big part part of the reason she just can't fully withdraw and be on board with real recovery toward a much better or great marriage.

The potential is.. so...there, but she is just still so blind to it because of her stubborn, refusal to release her fantasy that is or was her relationship with RM.

2long, I'm sorry. Thought recovery was slowly moving along. I understand what this can do to a person.

2long, I'm sorry to hear this too. She really doesn't get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> My H would never have had the patience you have.

You need to be able to follow through this time.

Well, folks.

thanks for the kind thoughts and suggestions.

You guys all know me so well. Trix, yeah, she has a choice 2 make. I gave the ultimatum and she said she'd think about it.

The past few months have been so strange. Some decent SF, 2ple of times initiated by her. But now she says we should probably hold off for a "while". And her old accusations that that was all our M was based on came back 2day. I know it's bullfeathers, but I also know what it indicates.

She'd been feeling generally closer as well, but when I told her ILY in December (or whenever that was), all I got was "Thank you". At least it wasn't like Han Solo's "I know." But that was another clue things weren't moving along, reallly.

She's been buying me neat gifts, and made me a cool spacey quilt to use at my telescopes when it's cold. Heck, I've gotten more cool gifts since Christmas than I got on Christmas. But even that made me wonder. (still, I got her a few gifts as well, after all, I'm not heartless!, and some of the things are really cool. But they are things, after all).

JL: No, she doesn't understand. That's pretty obvious. It did seem like she "got it" more during this convo than any prior, but I'm not holding out any hope that it'll take. Not again.

Low: Yes. I'm ready 2 back this up. I'm going 2 give her some "time" 2 think about this, just because I feel it's the right thing 2 do (and she said she would), but the ball won't be dropped again.

Mrs W: Yes, I did tell her that (for the billionth time, of course). I told her that more than once this time, though. And she repeated after me a 2ple times, almost as if she was trying 2 "get this straight". We'll see. No expectations, though. No hope either.

FH: You said a 2ple of things that I thought were rather interesting, and since your sitch right now is so similar 2 mine, I thought I'd comment on them some more here and ask you what you're doing now.

"After this last contact a couple of weeks ago, we had a "final" talk where I told her "him or me, but no more 'chances,' no more 'forgiving.'" I asked her if she still thought of him as a friend, and THIS TIME, for the first time in almost 4 years she said, "No.""

Any clue why the change? Was it a gradual realization on her part, or did it happen suddenly? You see, my W sounds like she's hanging on (hopelessly, since he's M'd again and doesn't seem 2 contact her himself, but of course I no longer believe what I'm being told - so this is in part interpolation by me).

"2Long, there IS hope, but a lot will depend upon you, your ability to "keep trying," and your assessment of her contact as being "dumb" or a way to continue the affair."

Well, I am willing 2 keep trying, so long as there's any reason 2 do so. Also, I would assess her contact as very, very "dumb" as you put it. Definitely not a way 2 continue the A. It's funny, really. The one session she had with my IC in March of 2002, where he asked her if she could promise 2 be physically faithful 2 me, and she said she could (because he didn't think she would say yes if he'd asked her 2 be emotionally faithful 2 me) - well, that seems 2 have stuck. But of course, she'd like 2 believe that it was the physical A that bothers me most, even though I've told her many times that it was the deception and the emotional attachment. I think this was the fog socking back in at this particular time.

AD: Are you suggesting that I look like knockwurst? ;o)

Weaver: Love the lyrics. I'm going 2 look that one up!

WAT: "Part of me is tempted to suggest that this potentially simply latent yearning is harmless, but I know it represents the whole episode to you and as such, as with FH, it cannot be harmless. Only you can make that decision."

Well, it's this specific person (though the fool is really nothing but a fantasy, he's not an ac2al life form). They share the same very focused research interest (though I've done internet litera2re searches, and the 2it hasn't published any of his $h!+). He meets her EN for convo and admiration. ENs are extremely hyper-overrated, IMHBVPOPOV (that stands for: In My Humble But Very Pi$$ed Off Point Of View). I told her that I don't believe there was anything whatsoever I could possibly have done once she started the A. And there's nothing I can do now.

Trix: There was an ad on the Lobotomy Box last night. For a s2pid car, I think. Started with some gal sitting behind the wheel, with some profound "arty" statement like "You are unique", which I quickly followed with "just like everybody else."

My W insisted again that she's unique, her si2ation is unique, and that we're intelligent people and so we don't need or can't get anything useful out of further counseling.

Well, besides the usual response (that her A is far less "original" and special than she imagines), I did point out that I'm not interested in ICing 2 "win her back" (hopeless waste of time), or even MCing with a goof like the only one we worked with 4 years ago.

I'd be happy 2 pay for coaching with the Harleys, though. But only if she'll participate. I'll make the offer soon, but I don't expect anything, nor do I have any real hope.

It's so strange. I can trust her with our finances (she handles the bill-paying, because when I tried 2 "help" with it when she was out of town, we ended up paying a few 2wice). But I can't trust her with my heart. I don't believe anything she says about relationships, and I don't see enough 2 decide whether I believe much of what I see.

-ol' 2long

Don't throw in the towel yet, 2long.

In an ideal world every repentant WS would follow the MB 'rules' to a T and they would have no contact ever again with the OP.

However, in the REAL world, we realize that this helpful MB is only giving suggestions and that our human feelings are very powerful.

I am writing this as a lady that has HAD an email relationship with a man from my hometown for 1 1/2 years.(he moved away many years ago and lives in another state.) Because of circumstances beyond my control (not my choice) we are no longer able to communicate (I think God loved me so much that he stopped this on line affair that I was
too weak to stop myself.) I am THANKFUL for this.

I have been emailing with several MB ladies that have had similar experiences and the desire to just know about the OM and his life (even though they do not ever intend to contact him) is in the back of their minds.(In order to cope with their remorse, they have this inner need and hope that they really were SPECIAL and that OP misses them; not any desire whatsoever to re-kindle the romance) These feelings, although wrong, are their and my feelings.

When a spouse (male or female) has an EA or a PA, they more than likely care very much about the OP or it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

For your wife to have a conversation with the OM, even though WRONG, is not the end of the world and does NOT have to be the end of your marriage. (Unless that is what you and her want.)

Thankfully the OM has found a new lady to love and marry and I am sure he no longer wants to have an affair with your wife. That chapter in their lives is OVER.

I am SURE your wife loves you deeply, 2long.....But she is human, she cared for this other fellow, and it isn't all that much different than an x spouse having
a conversation with a former spouse. JMHO.

Hopefully she can overcome this addiction to know about his life and if she can; both of you can keep moving on with a great marriage until death do you part. (If that is what you both want.)

This note is written with all sincerity and caring for you and your situation.

Would it be helpful for your wife to post here at this
Marriage Builder site?

P.S. Edited to say this has been going on such a long time.
I didn't know this when I posted the above note.
I see you came to MB in 2002.

one moment please ....



ah-ah-ah-------cheeeeeeeeeeewbullpucky

pass a tissue

I'm snot kidding

friend~~~

Have sis call RM and ask to speak to his "wife" or fiance ~~~~ use her first name

then you get on the phone and ask her if she is aware another woman is still obsessively calling her "husband" ... or whatever he is to her

EXPOSE my friend

EXPOSE

your dear wife should never object to exposure of a simple friendship

here's my question..

have you been asking your wife prior to this slight confession of contact...
and has she answered no before...
leading you on to believe that it was the truth..
and is now just filling you in the real truth...

ARK

Mary,

The problem with continued tries of contact is that it keeps this fantasy alive in her mind, and she cannot reconnect to her marriage.

Ghost man gets her love(in her mind) and 2long gets her friendship (crumbs).

She is not letting go it seems, so she cannot begin the process of rebuilding her marriage.

She is holding onto this phantam to avoid connecting to 2long. This RM/ghost man is a way to avoid true intimacy with her husband...whether she sees it that way or not.

And I believe that is why 2long has said he will not settle for any contact whatsoever, period, nohow, noway!

I am totally against contact with a former PA/EA whether we be weakly humans or not...and it is not just an MB priniciple it is just plain old fashion common sense.

For me it took a long time to come to this hard-nosed realization but I am so effing sick of seeing people hurt I just can't stomach it any more.

Weaver grows up

right in front of us

how KEWL is that?

I'm stoked (old 70's surfer term)

My friend,

Gotta agree with Pep on this.....

Time for a phone call to RM's new W...

And I'm so darn sorry your W can't see the gem she has in you!!!!

Hi, Mary -

"and the desire to just know about the OM and his life (and the hope that we really were SPECIAL to them and that they miss us)"

I appreciate your input - I am a FWW. However, this belief you describe is the "fog" that is mentioned so often. It is having EN's filled by someone other than the spouse, and is a continuation of the A. Finding out OP thinks the A partner is special and misses her, fills a need. It hurts the BS very deeply and is very counterproductive to recovering the M.

God bless,
Rose

2Long,
So sorry for this. It seems so frustrating. Any advice I could give would be about as useful as a loadstone.

But I agree with Pep also. And Trix and Weaver .... and ... I plan on tipping a few pints (or 6 or 8) watching the Steelers and give you a silent toast.

[color:"purple"] loadstone [/color]

what's this?

2long - didn't we duscuss this tactic some time ago? Like after you reported when RM got married?

WAT

*************Deleted*************

2B :



don't be sorry

I agree

and HER post was insensitive and cruel towards 2long

so I (rudely) bit her !

2B ~~~ how does a 12-year-long affair strike you?

***************Deleted**************

2BNormal, 2long's wife had a 12 year A with this man. He divorced and remarried during this time. Rat Meat doesn't even come close to describing him.

She is not some newly foggy WS just out of an A. She continues to show 2long total disrespect and lack of any concern for him by continuing to think she can be "friends" with this guy.

Peppo, you know what foggy WSs sound like.

**************Deleted*******************

***************Deleted**************

I could not agree more .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sure I do...

now you know what Pep sounds like when she feels defensive of her good buddy 2Long

He's my friend ... and I am not MBing right now ... and I could care less <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am not perfect ... as you can plainly see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by 2BNormal

"kind"

no

honest?

yep

snort, amazing.

An affair is rude (to put it mildly).

Pointing out bullhonkey is not.

******Deleted******

**************Deleted**************

If you prefer kindness over honesty, I'm not your girl.

*****Deleted*****

she did not offend because she struggles with her feelings

she stepped over the line when she used HER adulterous feelings to GIVE ADVICE that 2Long ought to just accept her adulterous feelings as a tool to make his marriage better


as far as ADVICE about what to do when a 12-year affair keeps on ticking ... it does not get much worse or much more insensitive than this dribble

and if pointing out THAT fact is offensive to you ... so be it

*****Deleted*******

((( 2B )))

Are you gonna watch the big game?

Pep, you have a way with words, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

which I greatly admire!

You were/are so right.

Go STEELERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

2long, if anything I said HURT YOU, I appologize
from my heart and I would be glad to delete any part of the message that you request me to delete. I admire you greatly and would never want to cause you any additional heartache.

I did not know your wife's affair had been going on for 12 or 14 years. How long has it been over?

Sometimes I think that about the only BS that wants to hear what is going on in former wandering wives hearts (to better undertand his own FWW) is OWL. He has posted many times
on Cardsonly's thread about withdrawing from an online affair.

I think everyone who comes on here should read and understand at least the articles on Dr Harley's main pages before offering advice here.

I have absolutely no issue with anyone, FWS or BS who knows that Affairs are not love stories. They are NEVER love stories. They are selfish fantasies. I am not making this up. The very reason MB gives us hope and WORKS is because affairs are NOT love stories.

Yearning for OP with cow eyes, and thinking of them in romantic ways is delusion in the very great majority of cases. This isn't ME talking. Its Dr Harley. A man who has hlped save THOUSANDS of marriages.

Almost EVERY FWS here once felt 'in love' doe-eyed and romantic about OP. Most now are ambivalent towards them, some hate them. Many of my FWS friends are EMBARASSED at the state of the people who 'seduced' them and whom they in turn seduced.

Affairs are mutual selfish self delusion. Any and all verbage about "and the desire to just know about the OM and his life (and the hope that we really were SPECIAL to them and that they miss us)" is abject delusion almost NEVER love.

EVERY WS think their 'love is special'. 2% of affair marriages last more than 3 years . Go figure....
symptomatic of a WS addiction to their affair - "fog " its alled here and is experienced by just about every couple who try to recover their marriage after an affair.

Mary was well intentionedly stinking up the place with misleading and entirely incorrect fog. One day soon she may come to realise that herself if she maintains NC and works hard on recovery.

2long knows all about the dynamics of affairs, also patience. But to have fog pumped in he room when he's hurting is wholly inapprorpriate IMO.

Yes, pep could have been nicer with mary...but she has seen this delusional drivel hurt more good people even than I have over the years.

Politely or impolitely , mary needs to read the articles on this site MANY TIMES, buy and read SAA and maybe Torn Asunder, wake up and smell what she be shovellin' before she offers any advice on these boards.

2longs current sit is a testament to several things:

* the fact that no NC means no recovery
* that no commitment to recovery means no recovery
* that time only heals if the time is filled with good stuff, not fog

Am I making this up ? if you can be bothered read my sit. My Squid was hopelessly in love with the king of her sport. "the great love of teh second half of her life". As fogbound as any WS ever has been.

Now she claims bemusement at how she could bring herslef to consider him attractive, this cheating, lying womaniser.

So - Pep was harsh, but not HALF so harsh as 2long being told that horsemud. IMO.

mary

Your every word is fog. You don't think so, you think yours was a SPECIAL love affair, that will never die.

Every WS feels that until they learn about affairs and keep NC.

Study MB Mary, and keep NC. Learn yourself With the love of a good BH you can rebuild your M without a thought for OM.

All blessings.


* edited to say I see yours was an EA. Seek out Suzet*'s works here on recovering from a EA. It can be hard to recover from without the obvious " I did very wrong" moment of a PA.

Thanks Bob.
I think I needed a little 'shaking' to help rid
my mind of some of my foggy thinking.

You have been through this with your wife so I know
you understand FOG.

It is almost as if I am BLINDED and cannot even see
it as fog. I am very early in this NO CONTACT with OM.

I will go back and read the articles on the home page
of Marriage Builders. Thanks for the reminder to do this.

2L,

Sorry to hear about the twister out your way. You know the ropes, expose to the fiancee...ASAP.

BS: RM's finacee, just wanted to let you know that RM is still having contact with 'other women' (leave it plural). Not sure how many but 'they' are out there. Thought you'd need to know so you can make the right decision for you.

Then just leave it be. If she chooses to marry RM, she has been warned and you are done. No guilt.

Next task: You need to decide whether you want to live with someone who is NOT willing to recover. If you live in the shadows of doubt, you have choose whether you want that daily or from a distance or at all. You decide.

Hugz to you 2L, you certainly do not deserve this kind of treatment. You are a special MBer to us.....we love you dearly and want to see you smile again.

Next time we go star gazing (kinda fun out here in the middle of the big blue), I make a wish just for you, ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

{{{Hugz}}},
L.

ps: Btw, all that previous ruckus in this thread wasn't necessary. Some of you may need to rethink rude vs marriage damage and see how much the scales are tipped by those who feel a marriage needs to have an A to make 'someone feel better'. Rudeness is never welcomed but sometimes a tool used to just put more balance back to the good side. WHAT?!?!?! Yea, you all heard me. If it was 'rude' vs an A, I'd pick rude reality any day. It is much easier to heal from a rude but truthful remark than to heal from an A in your face. JMHO.

Post deleted by 2BNormal

mary:

"2long, if anything, I, as a FWW, said HURT YOU, I appologize
from my heart and I would be glad to delete any part of the message that you request me to delete. I admire you greatly and would never want to cause you any additional heartache."

No, you didn't hurt me. You really are only hurting yourself with this Rube Goldberg rationalization. And I'm saying that in a KIND tone, if you can't see that.

Your post reminds me of a former poster 2 MB: Sarie. She had a 10yr A with a patient (she allegedly is a nurse, but I don't believe many liars anymore - my W included - so I don't know for sure). She never told her H about the A, and even when the OM moved on 2 another relationship, they blatantly continued behind both spouses' backs.

Anotehr FWW, SKM, said this 2 Sarie:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1

This is what you are doing and what my W is doing by wanting 2 check in on the OM just 2 see how they're doing, or "because I care what's going on in his life" (my W said that yes2rday)...

This is your choice, as it is my W's choice. Just be aware that your H may be fed up with it when you're not ready for him 2 be, as my W is finding out now.

KINDness. But firmness.

This is likely going 2 end badly, if she doesn't pull her head out very, very soon.

She's being "nice" 2day. She's got s2dents coming over for the afternoon. I won't mess with that, but it doesn't mean anything 2 me either.

2much water. 2long a bridge span.

I'm not watching no silly pigskin game. I've got telescopes 2 work on! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

2b..I dunno. Having my [censored] kicked here helped me save my marriage - no doubt.

Pep has earned the right to say what she wants how she wants on these boards IMO. She's worth a million a year in consulting fees. Read past the occasional stroppiness and learn about your life from pep 2B. Really.

syntheticskin game

2long, slight t/j again.

I remember when a poster told Bob that when he drove into the tree he should have done the job properly.

Do you remember that Bob?

*************Deleted*************

hey 2L.

What you gonna do mate ? This is knowingly disrespectful to you, wilfully ignorant of the ways of recovering marriages and IMO smugly prepared for you to soak it up for another few years. Unreconstructed WS will take what you give 'em plus a yard IME.

So what you gonna do ? You're running out of sand to draw lines in mate.

Either you're OK with contact or not. You either recieve this stuff your your W as openly disrespectful to you or not. Its your boundaries that are important not ours.

I talked to Squid about you the other day. Squid is REALLY interested in astronomy and I wand to buy her a small 'scope for use at our holiday home in Wales. Its 30 miles from the nearest town, in the black mountains, and the sky is SO clear it seems as deep as it is wide. I said I'd ask 2long. She said " Why 2long" ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All blessings mate.

I half remember Jen. I had my share of slatings. Remember "Blessed Time" ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

2Long was great for me back then. I never dreamed I'd overtake him in this journey.... Ah well. His silly, silly W. * sigh *

Yep, that's something we're ALL in agreement on.

2long, thanks for posting the SKM message. I found her
words as a former WW very encouraging so I did a search and found her complete recovery story: SKM Chronicles.

2Long - seems like things got a tad "off course" since your response to me. I'm going to try to answer your questions as best I can, but I feel a little handicapped because I have to leave God out of the picture. So if I stumble a bit, ask for clarification or state the "opposing case" or say whatever you have on your mind.

First and foremost, Christian or anything else, is the issue of Personal Standards. You know, those things that we will not allow ourselves to do TO others. It is your wife's chosen (consciously or otherwise) set of Standards that are in conflict with your chosen set of Boundaries (marriage does NOT allow for another man to be involved in any way). This, as you know, has been the crux of many a discussion I have had with many folks here on MB, so I will not "plow old ground" on that issue. You KNOW what I have said before and you know what is applicable to your life and the life of your wife.

Having said that, I will try to answer and address your questions to me as best I can under the circumstances.

Any clue why the change? Was it a gradual realization on her part, or did it happen suddenly?

Yes, I have a "clue." In our case, it's the result of our both trying to walk closer to God and to "let go" of things that are NOT in accord with such walk. Why has it taken so long? So it was not "sudden," but took over 3.5 years in part because surrendering to God is a process and in part because a Class II affair takes a long time to unentangle from. That's because CLASS II, long term, involved, affairs are the HARDEST to "get over" and "get unentangled." Women, in particular, tend to "invest" heavily, emotionally, in the affair and it takes a long time to get all of the "tendrils" out. But, by the same token, when a woman reinvests that emotion in YOU, AND comes to realize just how BAD her prior affair was, the bond to you becomes much stronger, just like a broken bone is stronger at the break than it was before. But the healing takes TIME, and we are not "bones." WE, the Betrayed Spouses, are dealing with OUR emotions, carrying the "load" of much of recovery EVEN THOUGH it hurts (especially in the case of contact) like the dickens. We ENDURE those things because of two primary reasons. First, because we judge the contact as "stupid" and not an attempt to rekindle the affair (part of the tendrils that have not been "undone" yet). Second, because we LOVE our spouse despite all the "unfairness" and hurt. That IS why we are even attempting recovery instead of getting a divorce (in essence cutting off our limb because it offends us).

So what are some of the thoughts that you can ponder and perhaps discuss with your wife? Let me offer you a few. Take out a hammer and see if there might be a "Fossil" of interest inside some of these "rocks" that you might find helpful.

Marriage IS fidelity. "I choose you and NO others." "Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself ONLY unto you." There is physical adultery and there is mental adultery. "ALL OTHERS" and "ONLY" are definitive terms, not open to equivocation or interpretation. One either accepts them or rejects them. Anything else is lingering "fogtalk."

If one chooses to view infidelity as a sickness (as opposed to a sin against God's command, for example), then to be "true to the analogy"," FULL health is not restored until the sickness is completely eliminated. For the BS, this is where the part of the marriage vow of fidelity and endurance comes in .... "in sickness and in health." Recovery of a marriage can be likened to recovery from a serious, life threatening, illness.

Some sicknesses that we expose ourselves to, or acquire by carelessness and poor standards, can be CURED and some cannot. A lot of the difference comes in WHAT medicines and treatments ARE available for attempted use in correcting and treating the problem. Thus, we can cure syphillus and measles today, but we cannot cure Gentital Warts (inconvenient) or AIDS/HIV (eventually fatal after taking a huge physical and emotional toll). Symptoms can be controlled, up to a point, but FULL health that doesn't affect you or others is NOT possible without effective treatment that eliminates the causitive agent of the sickness, not just one that controls the symptoms.

2Long, unless your wife is a blithering idiot (which I doubt), she KNOWS that contact is wrong and that it hurts you. She, like my wife, will say they are "sorry," even admit that it was "wrong" to have contact and that they will try to not do it again. But habits die hard. Entangled, long term affairs, take a long time to get fully unentangled. That's why we know going in that it may take as long to recover the marriage as it took the WS to get into and out of the affair. Thus, I knew, and assented to the possibility, that it could well take my marriage 6 years to recover.

Let me say categorically that assenting to the "recovery plan and timeframe" does NOT mean that I like it, am happy with it, or that it does NOT hurt when the "backwards" steps happen. I would "prefer" to be one of the "lucky ones" who's recovery took "less than the average."

We also have to make an assessment of our spouse's progress overall, and we have to decide how much WE can endure. For me, the time came to put it this way, "I forgive you, I have forgiven you, and I will continue to forgive you. But God does not demand that I live with you if you are not willing to forsake ALL others. This man is NOT a friend. He sought to destroy our marriage and harm our entire family for his own selfish desires. I will NOT have him a part of this family anymore. If you cannot end all contact with him and his entire family, forever, then I will love you from afar but I will not live with you and be constantly looking over my shoulder. I will exercise my right to a divorce, as much as I don't want to. Marriage IS one man and one woman, only. That is my belief, and that is my "requirement." So the "choice" is now in your lap. I give you control of it. If you want the marriage, the contact ends forever. If not, and if I find out there has been another contact, I will take THAT as your decision to end the marriage."

2Long, ultimatums are dangerous. They can be misused and they can be rendered impotent. Be deadly serious and certain in your own mind that you will enforce the consequence(s) that are attendant to the ultimatum, no matter how much THAT might also hurt.

If, in fact, the contacts have been initiated by RM, then his wife needs to be made aware that he is contacting YOUR wife. You know that if the shoe were on the other foot, you would want to know. SHE has a vested interest in seeing that HER husband honors HIS vows of fidelity to HER. So enlist her aid where he and your wife are "weak."

{{{{{ 2Long }}}}}

Take my hand and take some of my energy if you feel youself on "low battery." I have a power source that is unlimited.

God bless.

2long, you've been unbelievably patient.

My H was in an EA for about 8-10 years, remember? The first couple were not hurtful for me, because I believed him that it was a "friendship."

In the time after I believe to question, hurt, feel rejection, there was awful pain and humiliation. Finally there was too much of all that for me to keep any self-respect. I had to end our marriage.

He was totally shocked when the process server came to the door with the papers. He fainted. Twice. Onto his face.
In the back of my mind was the idea "Didn't you believe me when I told you I had hit the wall?"

You have earned your way out of this marriage, you know that. You deserve respect. Any man who shows up at an MB get-together spattered in paint from beautifying his home is really serious about his marriage. Your wife is just silly.

If you do end your marriage eventually, I wonder if she will be as shocked as my WS was.

When I saw 2long's hands in the photos I thought there was something wrong with them that I shouldn't mention.

LMAO

Sorry to read the latest news, 2long.

Some people are devoid of the Empathy Gene (I've recently come to grips with that fact). Does your W truly understand just how much she's hurting you? And if she does, does it hurt her (to the core!) to know that?

Hello 2long,

Refresh my memory.

Last year -- was it on the 4th of July, or Labor Day? or extended from one to the other? -- you drew some sort of line in the sand and issued an ultimatum.

I honestly don't remember what happened after that. Or if there were any more ultimata. And what was the content of the ultimatum?

What's happened since?

I just think old friend that there will be some who "get it" and some who do not "get it"...period.

she is one.

and how wierd about her...and very very disrespectful to you btw.

you'e a mb champion.

and you have done all you can do.

and there will be a day when you say enough.

she just doesn't think you'll do it since you've over the last few months/years said that "this is it if you don't end it"..kinda stuff.

she thinks she can slink by...and through...with intermittent contact.

at least the OM is remarried...how'd she feel about that huh? should make her feel a bit weird huh? that she's not best in om's books?

what gets me thru all this...is some ws think they and their needs are paramount...they are cakeeaters period.

they may give up the cake...but switch to pie..or a teeny slice of muffin here and there thinking that the bs will not notice.

time to call in the pro's on this one.

but in the end, it is UP TO YOU AS TO WHEN TO "CALL TIME" and stop the marriage cpr or not. it is up to you.

and it's up to you to allow your ww to continue nibbling on pies, cakes, and maybe some mini muffins here and there.

I remember when i first was single...right immediately AFTER THE DIVORCE...my xh didn't get it I am single. He is "getting it" now...it's finally hitting the man square in the face. he uses any lame excuse to find out what I am up to...calling to ask if I am going to party tonight so could he babysit my son? anything for contact now. as I have had enough. I allow no peeps into my personal/private life..and the man's been doing drive by's in front of my home to see if lights are on...he's gotten wacked out and uses my son's bedtime to be an excuse for control and contact.

when you lay down law however you choose to do so with your ww...whether a final ultimatum, or separation or cause a huge d day with om and his new w and blow them up some more, she will freak out. but when she sees you're not dealing with her anymore, she will NOT like it.

when they think you're still there...comfortably there...they're fine. when they finally "get it" that they are loosing their bs...once and for all, they do indeed lose it and freak out.

again, ALL IS UP TO YOU as I see it. but you'll know if you can deal with more time to give her, or if this is enough...or if you're close to enough.

I just wish ws's would "get it" and understand that there can be NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER FOR LIFE with the OP. PERIOD. NO NEGOTIATIONS..NOTHING..ZILCH...

IT'S THE MARRIAGE OR THE OP.

A bright person can't be this snobby. It's got to be hor$e$h!+.

I'll tell you something 2long. When I think back on my experience, I figure I handled things very well. But I'll tell you something else. And I know enough about where you're coming from that you may doubt the soundness of this plan... but if what happened to me were to happen again, my response would look different. Want to know how?

The day my W came to me and said she was having an A, she'd have to leave. And she could end the A and come back, but if I ever found out about more contact, she'd have to go. She'd know this, because she would know me well enough to believe that I meant it.

I don't think your W believes you mean it. I might be wrong. But if it's possibly true, then I think you're in the unfair position of having to prove to yourself that you mean it.

She doesn't want to be your wife. She wants to be your girlfriend. So if that's okay with you, divorce her and date her. But this is foolhardy, being married to someone who can't be bothered to make sure she doesn't hurt you.

GC

2Long,

I'm quoting graycloud's quote. "My W insisted again that she's unique, her si2ation is unique, and that we're intelligent people and so we don't need or can't get anything useful out of further counseling."

She is sure of her IQ. Her EQ is impaired. Which is more important in relationships?

Everything I've seen of your EQ says it is high. This type of self-delusion has served her well for too long. Uhm, 2Long. Aiding and abetting is illegal, isn't it?

Waiting for your reply to that line you drew last year...we do remember that.

((((2Long))))

LA

P.S. 2BNormal...Pep came at me in my first post and called my sitch "an emotional soup." Didn't stop me, but it hurt. That was good. Made me figure out what emotional soup was and to not serve it for dinner.

2Long,

My friend. We have been around this mess together for awhile. And I know that YOU know what tools you have available to maybe change this situation. I again defer to you, as this is your marriage. But you know what I have to say. I think FH has been dead on here. And Pep stating that you should expose. The OM's new wife is not gonna allow this kind of contact. If yoru wife cant shut down contact, the OM's wife will!

But, again...you have known for awhile what Dr. Harley and others will tell you. You have seen it all here, as I have...over the years. So, I will also pray that you find your way through this.

One short note...

For those that did not like Pep's posts, let me add something here. One thing I have seen over the years is that WSs and FWSs come on here and dont understand the often harsh tone we use sometimes on here with other BSs. Well, in many cases...it is needed!!

I remember back during my wife's affair, after a very strong post by both Just Learning and Asylyne to me...a new poster posted to me (she had just ended her affair months earlier, I believe)...and she was so concerned about me being beaten up by these other posters. Wha tshe could nto understand was this was exactly what I needed! Also, she could not understand when other posters basically came in and told her that she needed to hold back a little, as I didnt need that kind of advice right then. I needed the butt kicking!

BSs and WSs are DIFFERENT!!! We require different things during this. For a BS, this is war! But also, the pains and the damages to ourselves are different and require different healing.

That is why we dont allow fellow BSs to wallow here. To someone just coming on here, it will sound "insensitive." But if they stick around for awhile, they will see that it is needed.

Ask Dorry and some of the other FWWs that have started their own thread on here. Why did they do that? Because they needed a place to discuss this stuff, outside of the battle that the BSs are waging. They realized that they didnt quite understand at first. So what they did was sit back and learn what it is to be a BS, how it feels. What motivates us. Just like the BS studies the WS Handbook to find out why a WS does what they do.

One last thing on this. 2Long has been here a long time! Many of us have been friends with him for years. We have been thru our battles together. And we may be very protective of each other, as we have really begun to know each other quite well.

I know it is rough sometimes for WSs and FWSs to come on here. Maybe there should be a sign up outside this blog that can educate a newby on what it is like in here and why some things are done the way they are.

I do agree that Pep is Pep!! You will always know exactly what is on her mind. But even to those that questioned her here, you will find that she will very readily jump on your thread and give you the encouragement (or butt kicking) that is needed. And if you are here long enough, you will find no more loyal friend!

So, as I let 2Long get back to his thread...

In His arms.

here's where I am drawing blanks...

are you saying that you often ask if they are in contact..and she lies....saying no...and today brought on some type of relief of burdoning her truth..

Or
Is there never ever asking by you ...and you just assuming there is no contact....

has there ever been even verbalized commitment to no contact...
or commitment to disclosure if such occurs...

or is there mostly don't ask don't tell.....


The one session she had with my IC in March of 2002, where he asked her if she could promise 2 be physically faithful 2 me, and she said she could (because he didn't think she would say yes if he'd asked her 2 be emotionally faithful 2 me) -

2long...are you saying you have a counselor who is afraid to ask the real questions because he thinks you and he won't like the answers.....?

part of me says you are most happy living exactly how you have been september till today.....

can't address or change anything she does/doesn't do
she aint 'here'

but you are here 2long....

when did she ever agree to no contact
and what was your plan if breached...

can you continue in this relationship in a don't ask don't tell mode...
some people do...
and do very well .....well...and some just OK...

what is your tolerance level...

it's your choice...
no one can tell you what to choose...but you need to know what you can live with....
and the truth is in my opinion she will always keep in some type of contact with this OP....

Why do you think out of the blue today she began lamenting all your evil ways on parade today...
where's the trigger to blame you..

ARK

As an FWW who carried out most of her A with FOM on-line, I can say with absolute certainty that cutting oneself off completely from FOM is the only way to go. It is not easy, but it is essential and 2long's W has had plenty of time to do it. I faltered, too -- recovery did not progress until I stopped faltering.

When the A commenced, both FOM and I wanted to continue to be friends no matter what happened <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> , but now I know that's impossible. So I deleted all photos and phone numbers, blocked e-mail addresses, and basically have taken some extraordinary steps to prevent further contact. I'm glad he lives in another part of the country so even the chance of "accidental" contact is minimal.


So do I, but I don't think Pep's post was that bad compared to what others have posted to FWSs. I've seen stuff that's a lot worse in the year and a half I've been here.

I also thought that particular bad advice tasted exactly like what Sarie/BlessedTime would say .... in fact .... I remain watchful/suspicious in that regard. THAT Sarie person has effected me in a negative way ... and I remain guarded for her return to MB ... as I feel she will re-surface from time-to-time. She is one of the People Of The Lie Scott Peck warned us about ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I am an amateur at this stuff compared to the rest of these posters, and I don’t know much about your story, but your sign in date tells me that things haven’t changed for a long time.

Someone here has gotta change for things to change.

We can’t change other people.

We can only change ourselves.

If people don’t change it’s usually because of ignorance, fear, or lack of desire. We all know you aren’t ignorant; you don’t seem to lack desire either.

Are you afraid of something?

Maybe you can start there.

Courage to you.

2long ... this is 2much. There is time for everything and are you ready to pull the plug ?.

She is honest ... one thing I give her credit ... what she want 2 achive if she doesn't want 2 stop ?.

-rh-

I'm with GC who I think boiled it down very aptly, simply, and plainly:


WAT

2long,

No advice here just some support....you know the MB principles as well as anyone….and it’s up to you as to what you will and won’t live with.

It appears that the turntable has made another revolution and you’ve hit that same old gouge in the vinyl. Can that be repaired?

Sometimes we hang on to old technology simply because it’s familiar and comfortable…it reminds us of our youth…when times seemed so much more pure and simple.

I’m looking at a whole new line of MP-3 players out there…..I’ve noticed that there are a bunch of options if one just takes the time to consider them.

Oh rats, 2L.

Don’t know what to say, actually.

I have to be careful since anything I say could be used against me if and when FWW ends up contacting her LTA OM.

Let me know if you want to talk on ilul.

LTAs never ever completely die, it seems.

At least it wasn’t completely out of the blue.

All my prayers to you. I know you are stronger than I am.

>I don't think your W believes you mean it

This...THIS...this is what I think rings truest...

Your WW does not believe your resolve.

It took Wookie attempting to step out of the boundry one more time and my subsequent foot up his behind b4 he actually got it. Once he KNEW that there was no turning back....that's when our married life turned for the better.

I hated it. I hated every moment of it. I had to be Barney Bad A$$. It sucked....and it saved our marriage.

Does WW know you mean what you speak? Wookie doubted it till he SAW I was backing up what fell from my mouth. You shoulda seen the look in his eyes then (Pep would have been proud of me).

Oh, 2Long! I want so bad for you to be where we are now. I really do.

- Kimmy

kimmy becomes barney bad A$$..
pep definitely would be proud...

ARK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[color:"purple"]Barney [/color]

how can a purple critter be a badass???

actually I had visions of barney rubble beating fred to a pulp...

I'm thinking... (yeah, with WHAT?)...

...but I also have 2 work, 2.

Off back 2 work!

-ol' 2long

I was thinking Barney Fife (sp?) when I first heard it....

You know...from Andy Griffith show....

lol.

Barney Badass

http://members.cox.net/donknotts/actionfigure-barney.jpg

Only thing that comes to my mind is "debbie does dallas", isn't that wierd.

I was going to go with "c" next, cuz that's the next letter...if we were to play that game...but that one was even stupider, so.....

My point? I only saw one porn flick in my life and it was when I was about 18 and I was so traumatized that whenever I try to think of characters with rhyming names "she (that porn star)" pops into my head, and no it wasn't debbie.

Haven't times changed?

I'm proud of you too Kimmy...You da bomb!

Oh my gawd Pep, where do you find that stuff? LOL

hey weaver...

georgie porgie..

Sam I-am



hah...made you think of debbie..didn't I...

oooh that is truamatic...

ARKIE LARKIE

Smart *[censored] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Can I get some people mad at me here, instead of you two arguing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ultimately, as a BH, when I read that DRIBBLE, it PISSED ME OFF. It clearly shows that although a FWW can be a boon to the board, it can also be detrimental. The Mary post sounds like a love sick bird still missing her worm that got took away by a faster bird. It doesn't sound like someone that has accepted her affair for what it was. The second offensive post has 2BNormal swooning about how STRONG her FOM is. I call that another situation where relevance to 2long is not seen.

Ultimately, I wouldn't disagree with either posting having thing sof relevance to the board to contribute, and could be very productive in their own threads...however, for this thread, uhm... there really seems only one real piece of advice that would be consistent with MB princples, that would be to tell RatMeat's WIFE. (I intitially abbreviated RatMeat, but then went back and typed it out...I wouldn't want to deprice 2Long the opportunity to actually say that outloud, the whole thing, hopefully it's therapeutic for him.)

-hang in there

All:

Got a lot to do this week, so forgive me if I don't respond 2 everyone's posts. I'll try 2 hit the ones I think I can answer now. No special priority or importance ranking, I'm just barfing out random thoughts here. But I AM thinking about what I'm going 2 do...


I think the last time we discussed this was last May/June, around when I'd found email contact and confronted her with it, then we had the meeting with the mediator before she went 2 work at her OOSP for a month.

RM allegedly got married around the time my W "found out" he was doing so, in early September. I only learned this time that my W called him, and that's how she found out. She's contacted him 3 or 4 times since then, either by phone or email. Doesn't matter 2 me which.

I don't know the OMW's name or how 2 get hold of her. Simple searches for RM don't show anything about her. I could hire someone or pay for a detailed search, I suppose. And I'm thinking about that possibility. But I won't pretend 2 be excited about doing so.

-ol' 2long

Trix:


This is truer than you think. I wish I could convey how "close" she seems 2 be 2 receptivity. It's very weird, very exciting, and very very frustrating all at the same time.

-ol' 2long

oh crud...

lost a long post.

Gotta get some more work done, though.

-ol' 2long

"I wish I could convey how "close" she seems 2 be 2 receptivity"

Unstable states. Statistical mixture or maybe coherent superposition of WW and FWW.

Very confustituting and fusterating.

appy:

Makes perfect sense!

You know? Rather than post long posts, I wonder if I should just sell tickets.

Because, rather than being all that painful these days, it's somewhat amusing, in a self-abusive kind of fashion.

-ol' 2long

Ms. Pepperband's terrible and rude reply!!

""ah-ah-ah-------cheeeeeeeeeeewbullpucky

pass a tissue

I'm snot kidding""

GIVE ME A BREAK!! This was a kindly response, IMHO, to an unfeeling and foggy post.

I think all the whining politically correcters should just build a bridge...and get over it!!!

2LONG,

You said your W was crying for a while. Ask her who she is crying for.

The pond scum RatMeat?

The handsome and loving 2LONG?

Herself, because she is an IDIOT??? A high IQ no mind? Is she 2smart for her own good?

A process server serving DV papers at work or where ever might make her get the message. That would be interesting! Yes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was very sad to read that first thread. Sorry to chime in here late.

k

>rather than being all that painful these days, it's somewhat amusing, in a self-abusive kind of fashion.


Actually, that was the state of my cabaza when I had to become BBA. It had gotten past the point of pain to the point of how-frackin-long-are-you-going-to-live-with-this-drama-in-your-life????? I chose to step away from the drama and once Wookie figured out I wasn't going to be there to catch him and be there for him anymore, he changed his tune THAT VERY MOMENT. I'm serious. He was pining for (c)OW one moment, the next moment I put my foot down and up his bum, and the next moment he was smitten by the light bulb of the realization that THIS IS IT!

>The handsome and loving 2LONG?


If she was crying b/c of this, that would be GOOD.

But I think she's crying b/c of this:

>Herself, because she is an IDIOT???

Again. She's made it all about her.

She needs to grow the zark up. If 2long has waited this long I'd bet she has SOME QUALITY in there that is worth his wait. That quality is not going to be forced out of the fog till she learns there are consequences to her maudlin and self absorbed behavior.

What are the consequences, 2Long? Do you have a line in the sand?

- Kimmy

I dunno folks.

I'm sick of all of this.

ALL.

I know.

I'm sorry 2long.

We're sick of it, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Indecision is the key to flexibility.

Hmmmmm, in a constructive way, which of you two is being more indecisive?

It's easy to say from a distance, but I say you ought to pull the feeding tube on your marriage. Or get a diagnosis from Bill Frist - then do the opposite.

Else, more limbo, more frustration.

Your pal,
WAT

"Indecision is the key to flexibility."

I'm going 2 steal that!

"Hmmmmm, in a constructive way, which of you two is being more indecisive?"

YES! (how's that for an indecisive answer?).

"It's easy to say from a distance, but I say you ought to pull the feeding tube on your marriage. Or get a diagnosis from Bill Frist - then do the opposite."

Who's Bill Frist (well, I can look it up, I suppose).

The thing is the realization has really hit me yes2rday and 2day. I've been exclusive with my W for 32 years, coming up in April. And now it's over, but we're still doing stuff 2gether, planning the fu2re 2gether (which is just fine, so long as she can keep her friend).

More than it hit me when I made the appointment with the mediator. We're still VERY attached 2 one another. Extremely, in fact. And I feel her making so much effort 2 maintain the attachment - ...so long as she can keep her friend. Real-estate entanglements (thankfully, in several months, we should be out of one of them) family obligation entanglements. More, but I'm just 2 sick of all this 2 go on.

I realize that I really do love my W. But I can't so much as convince her of that (beyond the extent that she already knows and is jake with ...so long as she gets 2 keep her friend)

I realize that my integrity requires that I hold myself 2 the promises I made. And since I'm already doing that with my M, I get back 2 the family support thang, which means stuff like completing the restoration of our home even if we file for DV simultaneously.

I realize a lot of other things, 2.

*I almost sent her the SKM post yes2rday. But I realized that's educating her, and she probably wouldn't read past the first sentence anyway. So, in frustration, I deleted the email before finishing it. Is that CA? I don't think so, but maybe it is. Resignation, I think is more likely. I can't influence her or change her.

*I've thought 2 offer 2 pay for Harley coaching. But if I do, I should just make myself an appointment and tell her about it, and see if she'll participate at all - fully aware that she very likely won't. And then I remember what a collossal waste of time and money it was for me 2 have spent 3 years off and on in IC or individual "marriage coaching".

*I've thought about confronting RM, or exposing 2 his alleged new W. I have his address, email and phone number from the internet, but I don't have hers. I don't even know her name. I don't even know if she exists. And I really don't want 2 so much as acknowledge RM's own existence by contacting him.

I don't think my W is consciously manipulating me. I think she's subconsciously manipulating herslef and perhaps our marriage - by committing herself 2 staying in roundabout ways (like us buying a second house or helping my DD and her H buy a house this year) - so long as she can keep her friend, that is.

I still haven't decided what I'm going 2 do. And neither has she.

Screw all this.

Or we could all just get drunk and do the hokey-pokey...2long could sell tickets to that.

I think the hardest part of reading threads like these when we all care so much is that we feel the pain, and the frustration...and even at times see the humor.

Life's a journey 2long, and I think we can all say that we are proud to be walking with you on yours...regardless of what the outcome or what you decide.

You (and all on this BB) will never, ever walk alone.

Let's be thankful for that, if for nothing else.

She is going to be sorry when you are gone, and I think that is why you are still there. Worried about her, even now.

Okay...

I abolutely must stay off here for a while so I can think things through (and get some much-needed work done!!!).

Days, weeks, months?

Dunno. But I'm gonna went for a while now.

-ol' 2long

OK, but before you go, here's a radical idea for you to ponder.

Propose to her.

Ask her to re-marry you.

You'll do it as a demonstration of your loyalty, even in the face of her reluctance up till now to sever RM for good - but she has to do that.

Out with the old, in with the new. No divorce, but symbolically reset the table.

If you're gonna bide your time anyway, why not?

WAT
--------------
Bill Frist, he thought he could diagnose better,
Makes you wonder who was brain deader.

Change is hard.

2, you have a message ATOP.

((( 2long )))

I do not think that I have ever posted with you. I so feel your pain in that I am in somewhat same sit as my WH has been in a LTA and I too believe that contact is being made.

My predicament is that my WH will not even admit to an A. Just rumblings when he has been drinking but frankly that proves it to me, coupled with concrete evidence.

Anyway -- by any chance is RM in Texas ?? If you do not wish to contact him yourself, or his new W, if there is one and you should be able to find out from online marriage certificates --

I would happily do this contact for you if they are in Texas. You tell me what to say -- and I'll say it !!

Best regards - carnation

WAT:

I shall consider it... ...but even if she said "yes", I'm sure we'd disagree on the "so long as we give a $h!+" clause. ...but even that might make for a productive discussion.

carnation:

He lives in NM. I've never heard of online marriage certificates. Hm...

-ol' 2long

that is an interesting proposal (get the pun?)

[quote][quote]OK, but before you go, here's a radical idea for you to ponder.

Propose to her.

Ask her to re-marry you.

________________________________

Valentine's Day is coming up !!!

If you are concerned about RM marriage, try looking at the county records where it would have taken place. My county has them online. If not.... I do know US Search has everything !!

Best to you, Carnation

2long, if you need "time off," TAKE time off.

VERY recently I have been where you seem to be right now.

I would ask you to promise yourself ONE thing, though, as you wrestle through these thoughts in your mind and the "survivability," "recoverability," and/or "desireability" of continuing the Recovery efforts despite the "onslaught" you are dealing with and the current feelings of "hopelessness."

That one thing is a solemn promise to yourself to make NO permanent, life-changing, decisions for at least 3 measley months.

If you want to talk more, let me know. Man!!! I KNOW how hard this is and the enticement of "ending the struggle."

((((( 2long )))))

2long,
If you want to stay with her, you can. It's a decision you make by default if you don't leave.

I liked the points you made on love with boundaries. I think you can love someone even as you refuse to let them dictate YOUR choices. I think Pep did that with her son, and he has grown so much once he realized he would sink or swim on his own, but it depended upon him.

I can't imagine how it must feel to still wonder. Her indecision doesn't have to mean your indecision. You have choices too.

If you did a balance sheet - the pros, and cons of staying vs leaving, what would it look like?

How are you doing anyway? Still kicking, or just kind of getting by?

How is life from day to day?

SS

FH:

Thanks for that. I appreciate it.

SS:

All I know 2day is that this just hurts 2 much right now.

carnation:

I've never been able 2 get far enough 2 learn anything from those people searches. They all give you a bunch of possibilities, then want you 2 spend money for a real search. Pi$$es me off, because I have no way of knowing whether I'll find anything once I've registered.

-ol' 2long

2long, I don't do hugs often, but for you, I will.

{{{{{{{{{{2long}}}}}}}}}}

Sorry I can't be of more help to you. I know words are pretty useless sometimes.

SS

She called a bit ago.

She asked me how my day is going.

She bought a key lime pie at Marie Chandelier's.

I think she's hurting 2. Heck, I know it.

I just hope it's the beginning of something. ...but only just an eensy bit. I'm pretty jaded now.

-ol' 2long

2long, I can't give you much help since I'm nowhere near recovery myself. I only wanted to let you know that you were a tremendous help to me personally, especially in my early frantic stages and I only wish the best for you. You certainly deserve it.

Sometimes I think I have been at this a long time and then I remember the veterans like you and realize what true committment really is!

I just wanted to let you know that I was thinking of you and truly hope better days lie ahead for you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

must..........be..........rational

must.........keep.........my.............witts

breathe.......

whew.............

OK. I'm better.

She isn't THAT bad afterall..........

WAT

2,

Let's see old man.

Pie, Key Lime, sz med., 1 ea.

vs.

Life, size extra-large. 2 ea.

hmmmmm.

Let's see, where'd I put my crooked scales?

THUNK

Seems not quite even.
How can they be so cruel? Those guy's keep making these pies smaller and smaller.

-AD

2L,

It seems to me you need to say a few things to her. A very wise man said on this very thread the following things.


I think these words would crystalize some thoughts in both of your minds and perhaps lead to action with regard to your marriage.

Just a thought. Hang in there 2L, I think the answer is coming.

JL

2L,

Ditto what JL posted and sending u a {{{hug}}}.

take care,
L.

Oh!

This thread had already dropped a few pages by the time I logged in 2day. I almost missed it.

Thanks for the posts, AD, JL, Orchid (and, of course, WAT - the pie is DELISH)

I sort of think somethings gonna happen soon (soon, as in compared 2 the past 4 years, perhaps).

But I don't know what. And I'm going 2 try not 2 fret over the whatness of it.

I even applied for a job in another town. Don't expect 2 be offered the job, but you never know... ...including what might unfold as a result of filling out the ap.

-ol' 2long

This is sorta off topic, so I'm going 2 put it here. A quote about war.

We often hear about recovery from infidelity being compared 2 fighting a war. I don't much like war, though I've not fought in one. I'd rather do something else.

Clifford Simak had a way with words. Here is what he said about warfare, in his science fiction novel "Way Station" (1963):

"And that had not been the first time nor had it been the last, but all the years of killing boiled down in essence to that single moment—not the time that came after, but that long and terrible instant when he had watched the lines of men purposefully striding up the slope to kill him. It had been in that moment that he had realized the insanity of war, the futile gesture that in time became all but meaningless, the unreasoning rage that must be nursed long beyond the memory of the incident that had caused the rage, the sheer illogic that one man, by death or misery, might prove a right or uphold a principle. Somewhere, he thought, on the long backtrack of history, the human race had accepted an insanity for a principle and had persisted in it until today that insanity-turned-principle stood ready to wipe out, if not the race itself, at least all of those things, both material and immaterial, that had been fashioned as symbols of humanity through many hard-won centuries."

-ol' 2long

Insanity, indeed.

Hang tough guy.

WAT

Tell that to the terrorists of the world and see if they care.

None of us likes war, but it seems, that is a way of life for 'them'.

When a cartoon insights riots and nary a peep when there are suicide bombings or the beheading of innocent people.

Are we supposed to sit by and let evil take over the world when most of us just want to get along. Are we supposed to be conflict avoiders and sit back and just wait?

So, when someone attacks the family we use whatever weapons in our arsenal to try to save it...some are more benign than others.

Dr. Phil would ask you why it is up to your wife what happens in your life? (He has a better way of saying that) Why is it up to her to decide when you let her know your position months ago? Could there still be a bit of CA left in there?

Anyway, I really don't have all the answers. I know it is a difficult path that you are currently maneuvering.

Trix:

Obviously, they wouldn't care. And maybe the solultion is 2 reduce those with such thoughts 2 radioactive glass.

But my W said she would think about my boundaries (though she still insists they're selfish demands). I intend 2 "wait" and see what she comes up with.

I'm almost certain I won't regret my choices regardless of the outcome.

Almost.

-ol' 2long

No one hates war more than the ones that have to fight them! I know I dont like it, even though I have been a professional soldier for most of my adult life.

I dont mind fighting a war. I dont mind killing terrorists and breaking their stuff. I dont like it...but I dont mind doing it.

The men and women that stand watch on the towers are the reason the hordes of those barabrians dont kill us in our sleep.

War is made possible because evil men and women push the good people to it. The war on terrorism wasn't started by the U.S. That was because a few idiots flew our planes into our buildings and a lot of our friends died. And Americans are funny that way...we really dont want to have that happen again.

That has been our reaction throughout our history. You bomb a nightclub in Germany with U.S. soldiers being killed (Libya), then we drop bombs in your front yard. You drop bombs on one of our states (Hawaii), and we drop two nukes on you.

That's what I dont get about these little SOBs. Our history shows that we arent like a lot of other countries. We actually are not like any other country. And with a history of not backing down and destroying our enemies after they hit us...I just dont get these people. Didnt they know that we would and will respond this way? Tobie keith's song says it very well.

Again, I dont like war. Dont want to fight in one ever again. But, somebody punch us in the mouth again? I have no problem being a part of the can full of whoopass. As far as I am concerned...they asked for it!

In His arms.

Oh and 2Long...on the war analogy with affairs...it is so true!

So far, your sitch seems like the DMZ in Korea. Everyone knows one of these days, this thing needs to get resolved. but no one wants to get that war started again. Thus...stalemate.

In His arms.

2long ~


Your wife is right on this one.

You don't have a boundary against her having a guy on the side.

A boundary requires that you change.

A selfish demand requires that the other person change.

Your behavior up to this very minute, has said that you are willing to accept a marriage of three.

You have stayed, all along, for any number of reasons (valid or not is not the point), expecting HER to change who she is so that you can be happy in your marriage.

You are at war with your wife. Stalemate indeed. She wants things her way, you want them your way, but if push comes to shove, she gets her way.

And you wait, becoming more detached and resentful by the day when she doesn't surrender.

But why would she?

She's gotten the marriage and the guy on the side every step of the way.

yeppers

A boundary requires that you change.

A selfish demand requires that the other person change.

Peps right...that is brilliant Bramble.

In His arms.

MM:

"That's what I dont get about these little SOBs. Our history shows that we arent like a lot of other countries. We actually are not like any other country. And with a history of not backing down and destroying our enemies after they hit us...I just dont get these people. Didnt they know that we would and will respond this way? Tobie keith's song says it very well."

It's a perverse kind of jealousy that drives the Binnies of the world. That, and a complete lack of any regard for the lives of their "soldiers", who they laughed about after 9/11. It's our freedoms and prosperity (on average) that tweaks them the most. They believe that people should be pawns.

-ol' 2long

It'll do.

Bye!!

Well, crap.

I'll leave my "last post" there, but explain why BR's post pi$$e$ me off as much as it does here:

"Your wife is right on this one."

Whattheh11ever.

"You don't have a boundary against her having a guy on the side."

bullpuckey.

"A boundary requires that you change."

Truth.

"A selfish demand requires that the other person change."

Truth.

"Your behavior up to this very minute, has said that you are willing to accept a marriage of three."

Do I want 2 be right or do I want 2 be married? Define "acceptance". What does it really mean 2 you, BR?

"You have stayed, all along, for any number of reasons (valid or not is not the point), expecting HER to change who she is so that you can be happy in your marriage."

It isn't because this is accurate, or "brilliant" that I'm angered by it. It's because it's so half-true/half exaggerated (and certainly disrespectful) that I'm angered by it.

"You are at war with your wife. Stalemate indeed. She wants things her way, you want them your way, but if push comes to shove, she gets her way."

Partial half-truths (quarter truths?). Here's where the war metaphor falls down, though. I hereby choose the nonviolent protest approach over all out war.

"And you wait, becoming more detached and resentful by the day when she doesn't surrender."

Missed again. Detached, yes. But less resentful. Resigned, I think was the term I used above. Resignation means acceptance. I can't change her. I've always known that. YOU KNOW that I've known that. So what is this horse$h!+ for?

"But why would she?"

Why would she what?

"She's gotten the marriage and the guy on the side every step of the way."

...

Maybe I really will give this nonsense up after all.

-ol' 2long

MM:

The character in Simak's story was describing Pickett's Charge, which was a very insane, pointless waste of human lives. ...and Simak wrote that during the height of the Cold War, around the Cuban Missle Crisis, when we as kids were learning 2 duck under our school desks in the event of a nuke attack... And it's funny, I wasn't even 10 yet. And yet we ALL knew how unlikely we (or the world, for that matter) were 2 survive such an attack.

A friend of mine is a Civil War historian. When discussing Ken Burns' "The Civil War" program once, we got talking about one of the historian's comments about the Emancipation of the slaves by Lincoln.

She said "Freeing the slaves enobled what would have othewise been nothing but a bloody conflict."

My friend's ANGRY response was: "The Civil War WAS nothing but a bloody conflict. Freeing the slaves did NOTHING 2 change that!"

All true 2Long. Even one of my heros. General Robert E. Lee, said it best:


In His arms.

2long ~

I am truely not posting flippantly or to piss you off. I can see that my point of view is not welcome, so after I respond here, I'll sign off, and let you be. And again, since you can't read body language, or tone of voice, let me just assure you, its not meant with anger, or sarcasm or any attempt to hurt you.


It looks to me, from where I stand, that you want to be right.

I know that you don't see it that way.

That question has never been intended to be used to keep someone from drawing boundaries for themselves. I'm more than a little concerned that you have interpreted it that way.

And no, I don't think you have a boundary about RM, at least not one that respects YOU.

We teach other people how to treat us. What have you taught your wife about what you will and won't tolerate?

You say that you won't tolerate RM but...your actions are otherwise...

I don't care what you call it, or how you twist it around and call it anything else, the bottom line is, your wife is still in an affair (emotional attachment by choice!), refuses to plug into you and the marriage, and despite your protests to the contrary, you do not have a boundary in place the respects and honors YOU, or your marriage.


I can tell you that acceptance is NOT:

....allowing/accepting unacceptable behavior towards myself.

I can accept someone as they are (acknowledge the reality of that individual), love that person, care deeply about that person and STILL set boundaries that protect myself.

Acceptance IS operating within reality, as it is, not as I wish it was, or want it to be, or what I hope it might bcome, but as it IS.


2long ~ I'm more than a bit puzzled. Your reaction is as if you think I just sat here playing word games with you and playing with truth to make a point. Believe me, I have more respect for you than that. If I didn't care about you, truly care about you, I wouldn't bother to post. I have many other things to do in my life besides play mind games with strangers on the internet.

What is half true? What is exaggerated by what I said?

I'll repeat what I said to you over 2 years ago:

[color:"brown"]THIS is the woman you are married to.

The question that you have to answer is: Can you spend the rest of your life with THIS woman?

This isn't something you have to answer right now.

THIS is who she is. You've been aware of this for awhile, but I don't think you've really reached acceptance on it. And until you do, any decision you make is simply going to be a forced solution - which doesn't work any better in recovery than in the face of active infidelity.

Something that helped me tremendously was written on my bedroom mirror along with my famous "Pain is a given, misery is an option" slogan.

At the top of my mirror were the words: "THIS, or something better."

The unstated caveat is: "But you have to let go of THIS first".

Letting go doesn't mean divorcing (you've been here long enough to know that already) but it does mean accepting that THIS is who she is and learning to make decisions that are good for 2long based on THIS instead of what you wished/imagined/hoped was true.[/color]


Ok. You can choose this. But if this is your choice, you should get very clear on what your expectations on the outcome will be.

Your expectation that she will come around to your way of thinking (the root of your selfish demand, and disrespect of HER) is not based in reality or acceptance.

Unrealistic expectations are what causes resentment. And you are angry. Heck the title of your post is angry. Your initial post is angry.

Years of nonviolent protests have not stopped your wife from repeatedly lobbing soul-destroying missles in your direction has it?

Nonviolent protests will not stop the other party from taking violent action, regardless of your expectation that eventually she will lay down her weapons, recognize your point of view for the loving and intelligent thing that it is, and choose to love you instead.

But anyway for now, I thought I'd leave you with some food for thought. Here's a thread from many years ago, with a message that I think applies to you. Maybe it doesnt. But replace alcohol with LTA and think about it.

Bramblerose to LetsTry on Acceptance

Anyway, 2, take what you like and leave the rest. If what I am saying doesn't help you, then ignore me. I'm not offended or hurt by it. I have nothing but the utmost desire to see you loved and respected by your wife.

2 ~ you don't have to respond to me, I'm not going to say anything else in the future. You've been clear that you are choosing your own path. I sincerely hope you find the outcome you desire.

BR:

No worries. I went away and cooled off a bit. At some level, ALL "methods" are manipulative, or stated less strongly: intended 2 produce desired outcomes.

I can and will only post certain details. Since this is MB, I try 2 post things that are relevant 2 MB, and where people here have some experience.

LTAs and substance addictions are slightly different animals from your typical "vanilla" affair, though. And dealing with them is somwehat different, as well.

I have enough respect and love for my W of 30 years that I'm just not going 2 give out all the details that, frankly, might go a long ways 2ward giving people a better pic2re of what we're dealing with. For that, I do and will continue 2 leave a lot 2 the readers' imaginations. That's good in ways. Bad in ways. In the end, I have 2 weigh which ways (;oD) are helpful or hurtful 2 my recovery. From your older post:

"I'll repeat what I said to you over 2 years ago:

THIS is the woman you are married to."

Indeed. 30 years now. And she HAS progressed considerably since I first got here, and definitely since she was last actively having a PA with RM (4.5 years ago now). Remember, 2, that since her A spanned 12 years, it's going 2 take her longer 2 pull her head out, if she ever fully does.

"The question that you have to answer is: Can you spend the rest of your life with THIS woman?"

And knowing what I now know about myself, and gauging where we are in recovery, I'd have 2 say "Yes", I can spend the rest of my life with her. But I haven't decided that's what I'm going 2 do at this point. Almost. But not quite.

"This isn't something you have to answer right now. "

Oops! ;o)

"THIS is who she is. You've been aware of this for awhile, but I don't think you've really reached acceptance on it. And until you do, any decision you make is simply going to be a forced solution - which doesn't work any better in recovery than in the face of active infidelity."

I can't quite put my finger on what I disagree with in this statement. I believe I accepted that this is who she is RIGHT NOW back in May last year, confirmed by events and epiphanies she had last September in particular. So... who I'm dealing with is a woman who happens 2 be the mother of my adult kids, who's only just started withdrawal maybe last fall, maybe not until now, and is fighting it like a FWS in withdrawal typically does, with statements like "I'll always care about RM, always want 2 know how he's doing". Recognizing that she's also making lifetime commitment plans with me at the same time. And recognizing, again, that since her A was so long, it's going 2 take her a long time 2 recover (again also, if she does).

But I thought you knew me better. I HATE forced solutions. I hate forcing people 2 see the consequences of their behavior, even. In the end, at some level, just as divorcing is forcing a solution by changing my life (and thus hers in the process), so is doing "nothing" by staying in this si2ation. I'm staying for the time being, but I have no intention 2 leave the unpleasant things about MY life in place. My W recently said again that she believes our biggest problem is communication. It's not, but that's what she feels right now, so I'm working with that. It's conflict avoidance. I think I'm pretty ready 2 deal with that, but she isn't quite. So, within the framework of all the other stuff, I'm trying 2 help her become aware of it herself, without driving the outcome (being controlling, or being perceived as being controlling - which from the eyes of the beholder, are indistinguishable).

Hope this explains things a bit without airing more personal stuff, which I wouldn't expect anyone 2 do.

-ol' 2long