You're right believer

I just know the crazy stuff I did. I was a complete mess. And it has taken me 3 years to make the changes I needed to make.

Thanks osxgirl for the clarification. I do see what you mean; they don't say "bad parent", but I see what you're getting at, though I think your post was as "mean-spirited" in language as any. I'll delete my question.

LL, I don't think for a second that there was any way of parenting that would have guaranteed your daughter did not engage in harmful behaviors. Kids are completely separate people; chaos ensues from that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But you've done a lot to make the situation more volatile, not less, and to get yourself further from your stated goals.

You and your daughter both chose recently to risk unwanted pregnancy. She chose a partner who cares enough to go with her to her assessment appointment, whereas you chose one who wasn't interested in you or "your problem", only his own momentary pleasure. You posted here about blaming your daughter for your romantic difficulties, an adversarial attitude she was bound to pick up on.

So, by your example it's reasonable for her to see you as an adversary when it comes to her relationship with her boyfriend. And given that in recent sexual history, in some ways she's been doing better at decision-making than you, it's not surprising if 16-year-old logic decides to trust her judgement over yours.

Now you could try to talk to her reasonably and use all that "building up" and compassion and support and so forth that you like to demand for yourself. If you kept at it without fail for a while, it would probably yield results. Instead you made a shameful public spectacle of yourself with a fit of unreasonable rage. Now your daughter's previously personal view of you as adversarial is confirmed publicly and supported by many disinterested adults who have to act to protect your daughter's safety from you, since you were busy demonstrating clearly threatening behavior. And you've vastly reduced the likelihood that adults familiar with her situation would tell her that she should at least give her mother's opinion a hearing.

Alluring, why do you keep reading and posting to her? Just curious....

DW

Thanks, MOS. I do disagree about mine being mean-spirited... I have a VERY sharp tongue when I get angry, and I struggled greatly to keep that under control through this, and to keep it to the matter at hand and to not be personally insulting, which does no one any good.

I hadn't said anything personally to LL throughout this because I feel a lot of compassion for her situation, but did not know what kind of advice I could give her that would be constructive. In that situation, I feel it's best to remain silent. And as I said before, I don't have a problem with people being even a little harsh. I still don't necessarily agree with everything you are saying to her, but at least it's something that she can either choose to use as advice or not - something that may help her now. But attacking her past actions and saying that's the reason she and her daughter are in this whole mess just smacks of smug self-righteousness, and does nothing to actually help her at all. On the contrary, it just serves to beat her down even more in a situation that's already pretty bad.

If all I'd seen was this post you just put up, I never would have jumped in in the first place. I'm glad you at least can see the distinction here. Thanks.

osxgirl, I can't but grin at that, since I'm rather a notorious wielder of the cluebat. We all do the best we can to be effective, and thank goodness this board has a good mix of styles to choose from.

I have debated whether or not to continue to read this thread, but at this point I still am, and trying to separate the helpful from the unhelpful.

I'm not really sure what is helpful at this point. I know that dwelling on past events is not helpful and only serves to fuel my feelings of failure with her. So I'm trying to focus forward.

Believer, I do appreciate your recognition of at least some change in me over the past couple years. (BTW, looking back now I can't believe how dumb it was to throw so much effort and emotions into trying to save my marriage for all those months--I had a rare long conversation with the 'ex' yesterday. It's frightening how messed up his life is, and I realized how sane mine is in comparison.)

Yes, I am very stubborn--I recognize that--and so when I see it in my daughter I know she comes by it naturally. Some things take a long time to sink in, and if I don't agree with something, it may never sink in, even if it's the right thing. I wish I were more "pliable". I'm working on some of that with my therapist.


That is what I'm trying to do now, in the few moments I get to speak with her. It's what I wanted to do before the Tuesday appointment (and thought I'd lost that opportunity when she was already back in the exam room when I got to the clinic). It's actually what I've tried to do with the time I've gotten to spend with her one-on-one over the last couple years, since her father left (once I got past the 'existing' stage). In some respects, our relationship is better now than it was 2 years ago. She still has some very angry outbursts, but she is much more willing to talk openly with me and share things about her life now than she was back then. Two years ago she wouldn't even give me her friends names or phone numbers. She's also done better about calling and staying in touch when she's not at home. But she's continued to make her own decisions despite anything I or anyone else tried to do, and they've not been good ones.

And because we're all aware I am not good with boundaries and she is a carbon copy of her father who is a "taker" to the extreme, it's been a very bad combination. I don't agree that my dating has taken away from my time with her, or made her less important. When she's reached out for me, I've been there. She may feel some jealousy (just assuming--she's not actually said this) because there is someone else in my life, but had her father and I had a normal marriage, where he wanted to spend time with me, she'd have dealt with that anyway. She and her brother were both frustrated with me when I first started dating, because I had 2-3 dates per week there for a couple weeks and was dating a couple different guys at the same time, which they didn't agree with. Once I started seeing only R, their comments about my dating ceased.


I do need to clarify something here. The HUGE MISTAKE I made last summer with the PG scare was with a guy I had no intention of a long-term relationship with (which makes it that much worse). I'm not sure how he would have handled it. He may have ultimately been supportive, had I ended up PG. It never got there, but I ended that dating relationship right after the incident anyway. Overall he was a responsible guy with a full-time, respectable job. In contrast, while my daughter's boyfriend may have indeed went with her to the consult appointment, he is a 20-year-old guy working part-time at a sandwich place, he's bounced all over the country for the last several years sponging off friends, he's disrespectful, and he and a friend sit around and smoke weed most evenings. They will also often leave and not come back to where my daughter is until late at night. And because both he and my daughter are extremely strong-willed and stubborn, they'll get into these arguments that get very verbally ugly. I can SO see my own ex-husband in her boyfruend(although my ex didn't do the nightly weed thing AND he never sponged off anyone). So, don't assume that her guy is a model citizen where the guy I was dating wasn't.

Right now my biggest concern is for my daughter. I haven't heard from her since Thursday evening and have no reliable method of contacting her since I took away her cell phone last fall when she quit school. I have considered getting another cell phone for her, just so I could stay in contact if she's not staying at home, so that I don't sit around worrying about her like I have all day today. But if I do that, it just shows her that once again, someone will bail her out instead of making her step up to the plate.

So all I can do right now is pray that she's safe.

LL

LL -

I do want to say that praying for her, and for the situation, is the best thing you can do at this point. A lot of times we use prayer as our last resort (myself included) when it really should have been our first line of defense! My advice on that one - as hard as it is, put it completely in God's hands. Which means not asking Him for a specific outcome, but just asking Him to help you and your daughter and to do what He knows is best for everyone in this situation.

I know this has been a really rough time for you, and some of the things that have been said here certainly haven't helped. As I told MOS, I don't have a problem with being a little hard on someone if they need it, and I'll admit, there have been times when I've thought you probably did. But you didn't deserve to have the past shoved back in your face and told that you brought all this on yourself. I don't see how that is helpful in the least.

Will I say that some of your past actions have been regrettable, and not great examples? Sure - I think you would admit that. But I think anyone here who is honest will admit that they also have some moments they aren't so proud of. Could some of that have contributed to the problems with your daughter? Maybe - but honestly, I doubt it. Why? Because those incidents came way too late in the cycle - from everything you've said, your daughter was way down this path already. No, if anything influenced her, it was the marriage problems and the problems with your ex. But the fact is, she's an individual with her own personality and her own ideas about how she's going to do things. As you can attest to, right?

As you can see, not a lot of advice here. I don't really think there's a lot to give except pray, and be there for her no matter what. And I do think you should keep trying to be a better example for her... but you know that. It's obvious in so much of what you write. It's just that knowing and doing are two different things. You aren't the only person in the world that struggles with knowing what's right and continuing to put yourself in the wrong situations and do the wrong thing anyway. The Bible is full of examples. In fact, read all of the story of David's life some time. He was very well-loved of God, despite the fact that he very willfully disobeyed on a number of occasions. Sometimes God had to really knock David around a lot to get him to straighten up.

Keep praying, LL, that God will use this situation for the best. It's hard to see now, but who knows - this may be what He uses to help turn your daughter around.

Well LL, there you go again, ignoring what could be helpful to you about my post, and instead blathering on about how you want the situation to be perceived. That's the kind of behavior that makes so many people here disgusted with you.

How you want the situation to be perceived means bugger-all when it comes to getting to where you want to be.

The sooner you learn to just put a cork in it when you feel the urge to start telling people how you want them to perceive you and your actions, and instead really listen to what they're saying, the sooner you'll have a chance of being effective, instead of being the crazy temper lady people roll their eyes at and avoid.

Oh, and "all I can do now for her is pray" is a cop-out. It may be that's all you're WILLING to do, and it's fine for you to make that choice so long as you take responsibility for it, but it's not honest to say that's all you CAN do.

You've done a lot to present yourself as someone not worth listening to in this situation. There are all kinds of things you can do to start repairing that if you choose.

MOS:

I've been reading LL's posts and I truly don't have any advice to give her. I really don't know what I'd do if I found myself in her situation.

You've mentioned that she ignores your advice and that praying for her daughter is a cop-out. Based on how she's acted in the past, I can identify with that perspective as well. Here's my question: what do you suggest that she does with her daughter right now in order to help her through this situation? Do you have any specific suggestions?

LL
The things you are having to deal with are the very things that Al-Anon will teach you. (sound familiar?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) The skills of Tough Love are tough on both parties - but will help you cope with these trials. I think you should make it clear what boundaries you will provide for your daughter, and reinforce that you're there for her (no matter what) within reason. And if that means you change the locks on the door, and she lives in a tool shed and has her baby next to the lawnmower, or has an abortion, then so be it. We as parents cannot live our children's lives for them, no matter how badly we want to. If you are repeatedly telling her what you prefer, and let her know you're there for her (with boundaries) then she will eventually grow up. I think you're continually playing into her world (or enabling) in an unhealthy way, even though it's difficult to realize it when you're in the middle of a crisis. Even though you've given restrictions in some areas, it's possible that other things you're doing/saying are negating that.

I would also suggest that you contact someone in law enforcement - I think the advice you were given in the past(that you were responsible for her even when she leaves home and binges) is erroneous.

I hope you have a better day today.

I don't think I've really given her specific advice on this thread so much as pointed out certain things. And she has followed her standard pattern of changing the subject to avoid points she doesn't like. One way she changes the subject is by complaining that posters aren't coddling her enough, and another is by going into some usually long-winded description of how she wants herself/her situation to be perceived. Both are fairly effective ways to avoid points she doesn't like, even when they could help her.


LOL, you must have mistaken me for someone else. I would never say that. I did say that claiming that "all she can do is pray" is a cop-out. There's a lot more she can do if she chooses.


Sure, and I'm sure if LL respectfully asks for help and actually responds to what is given instead of talking around it or throwing a huff like she usually does, there are probably quite a few people who can give better advice than I.

Like it or not, with regards to the pregnancy the daughter is in many ways an adult under the law. So she can't be ordered what to do with it; one can only respectfully discuss options. LL has done a good job of demonstrating that respectful discussion (in which listening to her daughter would predominate, not the other way around) is not something her daughter can expect from her on this topic.

The public tantrum was a major factor in that. It's highly probable that what her daughter is getting from LL's behavior is that LL doesn't want to talk to her; she wants to talk at her and ram her opinion down her daughter's throat. LL might protest she's not ramming anything, but the public tantrum makes any such protests sound childish and unbelievable.

So my first suggestion is that LL write an extremely respectful letter of apology to the clinic for disrupting their care of their patients, and thanking them for refusing to violate the law because she demanded it, refusing to violate medical ethics because she demanded it, and refusing to violate safety procedure because she demanded it. Include a statement of understanding that they cannot be too careful in protecting their patients, and express gratitude for their careful exercise of safety procedure and medical ethics in her daughter's case. Make sure this all includes a statment of how LL's own behavior was absolutely unacceptable, with no waffling or "but"s.

Write a similar letter to her daughter, including expressions of sorrow that LL chose to act divisively at such a time when her daughter most needs her mother's support and understanding. Again, no waffling or "but"s. Make a copy of the clinic letter for her daughter. Send both those to the daughter with a note asking her if she would like to accompany LL to the clinic when LL delivers the clinic letter and apologises verbally to the staff present as well as delivering the letter.

It's a major start on presenting herself as someone her daughter can talk to instead of the screaming lunatic to run away from.

I haven't read all the responses, but right now is NOT the time to be beligerant to your daughter.

You continually stress and over-stress that you are a Christian, well, right now is the time to WALK THAT WALK with your daughter.

You don't like your mistakes thrown up in your face, don't do it to her.

Call your sister, ask her if she would be willing to talk to her niece about this, this is WHAT Families are for, as well as the Christian community.

Honestly, It doesn't sound like you are concerned about your daughter at all, but more about YOUR own reputation--"I'm not going to tell our Pastor because of how it would make my daughter look" hogwash, it's you are afraid of how it will make YOU look.

Reading all the *I*'s in your post shows you are more concerned about how this will effect YOU, than how it can help your daughter to actually grow up.

This may not be what everyone wanted, but it is what it is,
and it's the natural consequences of her choices.

Since you do not support abortion (nor do I) you need to let her know that you will be there for her no matter WHAT decision she makes. If she decides to have the abortion, even if you disagree with that choice, you need to be there emotionally for her--not judging her. If she decides to have the baby and give it up for adoption, you will still need to be there emotionally FOR HER. If she decides to have the baby and keep it, same thing applies.

If she has the baby, she can apply for assistance, if she and the boy do not get married, she can still get child support, and things like WIC and other support to help her financially where you may not be able to help.

Instead of yelling at her, wrap her in your arms and let her know how much you love her, let her know that your sorry she finds herself in this situation, but that you are there FOR her no matter what she decides.

Stop thinking about yourself and how this MIGHT effect you, and start thinking about your daughter and how YOU as her mother can help her.

Post deleted by Cherished

In response to the latest posts:

Osxgirl,


For some reason I'm having one of my "feeling very distant from God" periods, so this is not coming easy. But I did pray for his hand in things. It's so hard to believe that this could be a positive turning point, when nothing up to this point has been (I've hoped any number of times before that she'd hit a turning point, only to be disappointed). But it's early in this situation.

MOS,

In response to aeri's request that you provide suggestions as to what I might do to help her through the situation, you responded:


No. As wrong as it may be to have this attitude, I can't express sincere gratitude to anyone who does what they do. I left their property when asked to leave, and I don't intend to come back (because I was warned by both them and the police that if I ever entered the property again, I would be arrested for trespassing).

You further stated:


I've spoken with my daughter (the day the whole thing transpired) about how I acted and why it happened. I may be completely off in saying this, but our issues don't seem to be as much related to that incident as they seem to be just due to my lack of agreement with the way she is choosing to live in general and my refusal to provide money.

Avondale,


You are correct here--this is putting me in a very difficult situation. I'm already notoriously bad with boundaries when it comes to her, and now that she's pregnant, I am afraid that if I don't do certain things to take care of her, she or the unborn child may be in danger and I would forever blame myself if something happened. But it's been difficult when, for example, she wanted to come home this weekend and suggested that her boyfriend or her other male friend and her might be visiting. I told her there would be no guys staying in the house. She called me "stupid" and hung up. Since then, she's dropped the visitor idea but still expected me to drive over and get her so she could be home for a few days and attend some local band show she wants to see on Tuesday, and then I was to jump back in the car and drive her back to IC mid-next week. I currently am driving my son's old junker car (I'm between cars myself) and I don't trust his to drive it 230 miles round trip in arctic temps. Oh, and she needs her savings bonds cashed--like NOW--and wanted me to bring her that money when I came tomorrow. And furthermore, since she and three guys think they're renting an apartment over there, she called again today to say she needs a bed and how about I give her my son's futon from his bedroom. Uh..NO! I bought that specifically for that room when he went away to college, so that it's a den when he's gone and it's his guest room when he's home. So she's mad, because how can I expect her to sleep on the floor. So she says, "No baby for you then!"

So...the VERY SCARY new twist seems to be that she's holding this unborn child over my head to make me give her whatever she wants or needs...money, furniture, transportation, groceries, etc.

TR,



I am concerned for my daughter, but I'm also frustrated with her, because no matter what I try to do, as soon as I say something she doesn't want to hear (and that can be as simple as telling her I can't come get her), she abruptly hangs up on me. It's very difficult trying to tip-toe around conversations with her and it's exactly what her dad always did to me. I'm tired of being hung up on, and then called at all hours with the person on the other end making demands of me when THEY need something.

However, if I were afraid of how I would look to my pastor, I certainly wouldn't have confessed my sex outside marriage, or admitted to my prior infidelity. I haven't contacted the pastor yet because generally when I talk to either of them, the first thing they suggest is for me to let them have an opportunity to talk to my daughter. And that's the last thing she wants. I feel uncomfortable telling them that, because they want to help and they think it will help. But the moment you bring up anything related to God to her, she shuts you out.


I have tried to think about how I can help her. I am going through a lot of self-imposed guilt right now because I know any potential grandmother worth anything would step up to the plate and do whatever was necessary to help, and if that meant changing their entire life and raising that grandchild, they'd make the sacrifices to do it. I feel extremely selfish because it truly isn't something I want to do, and I know it should be. My career would need changes (my current position demands longer hours and some weekend work), my free time would no longer be free time, and yes, my dating would either end, or it would be dating with a child in tow. So I'm struggling with my own feelings with all this and why it is that I'm dragging my feet about wanting to make this sacrifice for my daughter because at least the way things stand right now, I see no way she could possibly raise a child herself. She can't take care of her own life in a responsible fashion.

Cherished,


I haven't yet picked up any literature, but have tried numerous times in a very light and non-threatening way to mention things that she needs to be aware of in how she's taking care of herself should she decide to carry the baby. I've laid off discussing abortion vs. having the baby for the moment, though now I'm getting nervous that she's not going to make a decision but is just going to ignore the whole thing until she can't any longer. I don't want to think of her deciding at 12 weeks or at 20 weeks all of a sudden that she's now ready to have that abortion, because that's even more difficult for me to deal with than it'd be if she did it right now.

I've been extremely busy at work as it's my year-end and my auditors will be here next week. In the process of not taking care of myself, I ended up with a stomach virus Wed/Thur. And for whatever reason, this entire last week I've just felt very gloomy and rather apathetic about everything, even my dating life. In a way, I'd rather R wasn't coming over this weekend, and I don't even know why. Generally I really want to see him, and it's what I look forward to for my weekend. But this time, it's almost giving me the creeps and there's no reason for it. So then analytical (or delusional?) LL starts thinking, because she already feels so far away from God, "Is it God speaking to me? Is he saying, LL, if you don't leave R, I will leave you?" Or maybe this latest development with my daughter is just further proof that I'm supposed to be alone for the rest of my life (that feeling I've had anyway). If I were alone--no man in my life--I would be more able to parent a grandchild than if I were dating or in a relationship.

It all seems sort of crazy. I think my brain is on overload. My therapist has been gone for 3 weeks--I see her again next Tuesday. There will be lots to talk about, as she knows nothing about my daughter's situation yet.

LL

I've read this entire thread and the best advice I've seen came from your boyfriend. I'm not sure if you weren't listening, or if I got a wrong meaning there, but I think I understood him right - and your next statement indicates I did.

IF you're not willing to step up to the plate and be a parent to your daughter, in whatever she needs at this point, then you need to shut up and let her make the decision she needs to make.

You've already stated that he's a good father, and that's what makes him a good father. He's willing to step up and do whatever it is he needs to do to be a good father. EVEN if it means giving up his freedom and financial security to do so. Anything less than that would not make him a good father.

I happen to be pro-life and I have to say it pi$$es me off to no end when I read that a pro-life person is so willing to stand up and say don't take that life, but d*mn that child to the state, foster parenting, or some other insignificant standard of life. If you aren't willing to go the extra mile and support your daughter in raising the child (you can use good boundaries but non-support isn't a good boundary) then you are missing the point. What the heck is a 16 year old doing living in another community?

Raising children who make good choices is about teaching them to make good choices and being willing to stand behind them when they make wrong ones. Not to pick up the pieces necessarily, but to be there while they pick up their own responsibilities.

I feel for your daughter in this situation, it seems she's all alone in making her choice. Nobody is willing to go the distance with her.

I have a feeling your bf is making his choice and it isn't because you have to raise this child, or because your daughter chooses an abortion, but rather because you aren't willing to stand on your own beliefs, and go the distance if you do have to give up something and support your daughter, be a grandmother and help raise a WANTED child.

Rejecting a child is a sin. Killing the child is just more of the same sin.

Lordslady,

You have an e-mail....(hope you haven't changed e-mail accounts since we corresponded when you first came to these boards!!!)

Regards,

BB

Well, I noticed that once again you ignored the main point I was communicating and went on about you, about what you want, about what you don't want, about what you think people should and shouldn't do, and so on and so on.

Given how relentlessly self-centric your approach to this whole mess has been, it would serve you well to assume any notions you have about what your daughter thinks the problems are between you are probably just plain wrong.

You really make yourself sound like you don't listen to her, just talk at her. And your often not listening to posters here, but rather just talking at them really drives that impression home.

You deliberately did a lot of damage with one single act to your daughter being remotely likely to see you as someone she can talk to instead of someone who either talks at her or throws various styles of tantrums at/near her.

I made some suggestions on what you could do to pick up your own mess as far as your relationship with her goes in regards to that one incident. As other posters have been saying is a favorite pattern of yours, you responded with just a load of excuses, some that seem really out there.



How on earth do you even make that fit with your religion, let alone not drive yourself nuts with that one? Darn near everyone on the planet is going to do things any one of us finds wrong/hateful, but most of us still manage to get along without throwing public tantrums and with thanking those who help us. No one's asking you to thank them for being an abortion clinic. But it really blows me away that you would find it unthinkable to thank some people who really gave it their all in protecting your daughter in the brief time she placed herself under their care.

What kind of message does that send your daughter, that you find their dedication to her protection a subject for rage rather than gratitude?



Ah, thank you for the clarification. You can still send them the letter though.

BTW, that was a great post, seekingjoy; well put.