The last few days have been anything but well. I will not say that I was good over the weekend with "R". I wasn't. I also didn't take it as far as I could have. So I guess improvement over the time before. But right now that is so NOT the issue that it doesn't even matter. I wasn't even particularly in my right mind over the weekend so nothing that happened would really surprise me. I was in reactive mode and I was just looking for some sort of stability.

So, the REAL issue: I found out that my 16-yr-old daughter is pregnant. How I found out? Through the ex's fiancee (formerly the OW). My daughter visited a women's clinic to find out, and to schedule an abortion, and Iowa law requires that a parent be notified. She chose him, hoping they'd just stay out of everything and not let me know. They called me and dropped the bomb as I was riding in the car on Saturday with R. I couldn't even respond.

I spent all weekend trying to contact my daughter (she has no cell phone because I took it away from her, and she's been living away from home for the past 2.5 weeks because she chose to play "big girl" and everyone who knows anything recommended to me that I let her, and pray, and be there for her when she figured out that it wasn't as easy as she thought it was.

Well, it didn't work as anyone had planned. She's now 5 weeks pregnant and is wanting an abortion. I am TOTALLY against them. I am as pro-life as a woman usually comes. So I found out that her appointment was supposedly today, and I took the day off work and hit the road to try and talk to her before she went in. I missed her--the appointment was an hour earlier than she'd said, and so when I got to the abortion clinic she was already inside and they wouldn't let me see her. I blew sky high (not a good reaction, but again, put yourself in my situation and you might not react much better). I ended up having to leave the clinic to keep from being arrested for tresspassing. I spent a good 45 minutes talking to the cops, who were actually helpful and called the city attorney to see what my rights were, and then helped me get my daughter to talk to me.

Turns out I blew up in the clinic for nothing--her appointment today was to assess how far along she was (and if they'd have just TOLD ME THAT, I'd have not blown up).

I eventually did get her to agree to meet me for lunch (with her boyfriend--the one I'd like to strangle except I realize it took two to get into that situation). We talked, and she's home with me for a couple days (mostly because she's without a place to live over there because she can't continue to stay in the college dorms with friends, and her boyfriend has yet to secure housing). So he's staying with a friend for a couple days while she's with me here. I may be taking her back tomorrow--I may not be taking her until the weekend. It's up to her.

In the meantime, I have a zillion thoughts going through my head. It's possible she's used drugs since getting pregnant. It's probable that she's been drinking. She continues to smoke. It all ups the odds on birth defects quite a bit. And yet I was sick to the point of dry heaves, and finally intense pain in my right shoulder that made me have to sit and rest a while today, at the thought that a child (my grandchild) was being killed.

So I've tried to get her to take responsibility and have the baby, and let someone who really wants a child have the opportunity to raise it (i.e, give it up for adoption). But she says if she ever went through 9 months of pregnancy, there's no way she'd give a child up.

That would mean I'd be saddled with raising it, because she's not capable. And this is going to sound as cold as cold could be. I would love to be a grandmother (though right now was not my plan). I do NOT want to be a parent of an infant at this point in my life. I am a single woman. I work long hours. I don't have the financial resources. And I'm at a point where I was looking at having my freedom from children before long. I don't want to start that process over.

And if my own lack of desire to parent an infant at this point in life isn't enough, being a single grandma and funneling all my money into a baby for the next umpteen years pretty much cancels out any chance of dating or relationships for me including the one I'm in, because he and I have had many discussions about how glad we are that our kids are older, because neither of us wanted to parent infants. We're not ready for the responsibility. We're not ready for the cost. We were both parents very young in life and have struggled financially since our teens. And to ask him to commit to me as I raised my grandchild--it's not fair to him, and I think it would cause HUGE resentment because he would constantly feel that his money was going to my child to bail her out from a stupid mistake while his own kids are very well behaved and have their lives together.

So I'm sitting here shaking (and don't tell me right now that this is proof that I'm emotionally unstable. I've just been through a few days from h*ll!). I don't know what to do. I don't know who to talk to. R does know. I told him that I proposed to my daughter that maybe my mom could help the baby for a few years until my daughter got her life together (my mom is long ago retired). He jumped all over me--told me how unfair that was because my mom is way too old to consider dumping something like that on her. And he's right. It is unfair. I don't think responsibly--I'm just grasping at straws trying to prevent something from happening. My mom is 73 and my dad is almost 80 and has Alzheimer's. There's no way they could have a baby there full time. And she lives 1.5 hours from me, so it's not like she could come babysit at my place during the day. And he knows what the other option is...it would be me raising the baby. He let me go...said he'd call me back at 9pm. I have dumped a lot in his lap all of a sudden. And if I were faced with the same situation, after everything else he's already been faced with between me and my daughter, I'd probably run fast and hard.

And things have actually been really good between the two of us lately. Yes, he's mentioned the possibility of moving up a wedding date a time or two. He also said once that if we loved each other, we'd have to find a way to work with the boundaries. He still hates them, but I think he's come through the initial shock and had begun to adapt to things.

And now this. It's going to make me a mental basket case to live with, no matter what she decides. If she aborts, I don't know how long it will take for me to get past that. (And it's more difficult because R's brother and his wife have a 3-month-old daughter, so each time I see her I'm going to think of what was lost. It's all I thought of all weekend when I was around her.)

And if she chooses to have the baby, I have NO answers as to what I'll do.

I can't call my mom or my sis or my pastor or anyone else I'd generally talk to right now. I don't want my mom to ever find out, if she decides to abort. I can't let my sis find out because she did have an abortion in her younger years. She doesn't know I know, but I know how hard it was on her, and I don't want to bring back old memories for her. I don't want to call my pastor, because if my daughter ever decides to come to church with me, I don't want her to know that he knows. And I don't want to overwhelm R by dwelling on it over the phone with him. It's putting him in a tough position already, and he doesn't have answers. And he already listened to me cry for 1/2 hour.

So you guys are getting the brunt of it. It's all just almost surreal right now.

LL

Please refrain from any harsh words about my parenting right now. I feel lousy enough as it is.

LL,

Could you speak to your therapist?

I'm sorry, I have no wise words of wisdom, just offering a (((hug))))

DW

Whew. Just when you think it couldn't get more difficult. I'm sorry this happened. Is there a pro-life clinic in your area? The one where I live has lots of resources including counseling for grandparents-to-be in your situation. You might want to make an appointment for your daughter and/or yourself, or at least just call and talk to them. They have been through all the scenarios you've written about with other clients, from a Christian standpoint.
I just don't know what else to say. I'll be praying for you, I know this is going to be tough.

Oh, I do want to add something.
You said:
[color:"blue"] Maybe it is time for her to deal with her past.
[/color]
You said:
[color:"blue"]This is doing every counselor, minister, and church staffperson a disservice by thinking they can't "hide" facts they know about people. He should not be a judgemental man, and if he's your pastor, he would want to be there for you in a situation like this. [/color]

sorry to hear your daughter got herself into that situation but I gotta say....there is a ****** of a lot of "I's" in your posting...not surprising!

I am pro-choice and I say it's your daughters decision what SHE wants to do with HER body and HER fetus. Take it or leave it...don't matter to me.

LL,
My heart is breaking for you and your daughter. However,

1. I don't understand you comment about your sister. Do you actually think that your daughter's situation is what will bring up old memories? I'd bet she has her own memories, and she is in control of them. Do you censor news reports about abortion clinics and right-to-life marches?? Perhaps your sister is THE BEST person to actually talk to your daugher, as she's the one "who's been there, done that, got the shirt".

2. BS about your pastor. Counseling is HIS JOB, and I can't believe you would not use that excuse just on the off chance that your daughter might be embarassed. Just think of the Catholic priest adn all that THEY know about people.

3. If she chooses to have this baby, it is HER decision, adn she will need to figure out how to raise it. You may support her, or not, but I agree with you that you are in no position to be raising a baby right now.

PS I hope you are still attending the gym.

cm

DW,

This would be a great time to have a therapy appointment. Unfortunately, my therapist is away for about 2 weeks or so and my next appointment isn't until 2/21. I was already nervous about going that long because she has been helpful (albeit difficult to listen to sometimes when I don't like what's being said). But no, it's something I'll have to find other ways to deal with until 2/21 and probably by then my daughter will have made her decision.

Avondale,

Yes, there's a wonderful pro-life place here in the city. Getting her to visit is another story. I'm not sure how to do that. It's actually where she went to be PG tested over a year ago when we had the first scare, so she's aware of it. At that time, when she thought she was PG, she was prolife as well. But a lot has changed since then, and it makes a difference who she's been around. I know she's gotten no good guidance from the abortion clinic (and I'm sorry, that truly is primarily what it is. It's not Planned Parenthood...it's a clinic just a few blocks from the college that provides basically birth control and abortions. It's been in the news many times.) I want her to have input from both sides--good input--before she makes the decision. But yes, I am very strongly opposed to abortion. Partly from my biblical beliefs and partly from being a mother and hearing my own daughter's heartbeat at 7 weeks PG, and having an ultrasound of her at 12 weeks where she was not yet 3 inches long yet had arms and legs and a jawbone and a spine and you could see her put her fingers near her mouth and everything. And we're talking about my grandchild here--I will do what I can within reason try and make a difference.

But I have wondered why every time it seems something just starts to settle down, some big bomb goes off again. And this one has huge implications no matter what decision is made. I'm thankful that God has allowed me to remain relatively calm and she and I had a good conversation on the 2 hour drive home. At least I'm thankful that she's healthy, and that she's alive, and that we're speaking. I guess I have to start there.

I may talk to my sister. I was wanting to spare her pain, but maybe she would be able to offer some of the best words of advice, IF she decides to share that she actually had an abortion. Like I said, I know, but not because she told me.

It's too late tonight to talk to a pastor. I really don't want them trying to talk to my DD right now though, because she'll shut them out in a heartbeat and then she'll shut me out.

Alluring,

There are a lot of "I's" because I feel like as a child she is MY responsibility, and after the total failure at parenting her, "I" feel unqualified to try as a single woman to parent her child. "I" am scared...for her and for me.

But also, the child she carries is "MY" grandchild, and that while I realize that ultimately because of the abortion laws in this country, she can decide to end the pregnancy without my consent, and I will love her and be her mother no matter what her decision, "I" still have some deep feelings about the whole deal and will do what I can to convince her otherwise.

CM,

I think I responded to most of your second post in my post back to Avondale.

If my daughter chose to have the baby (though that's more of a pipe dream right now), I would support her emotionally, I would do what I could to be there to help give some weekend relief (not each and every weekend because she as the mother would need to step up to the reality plate), and I would do what I could financially to help provide things the baby needed. I'm sure my mom would be willing to take some weekends, too and even at 73, she could probably handle that. She's still very active. I would also do whatever I could to make calls and contacts to put her in touch with whatever parenting and other resources I could find for her.

And there's a fear that I could talk her into something she doesn't want to do, only to have her deliver a child with severe handicaps because of poor choices she's made or may make in taking care of a pregnancy. I have no idea how any of us would deal with that. She is NOT responsible. She's an immature 16-yr-old with ADHD. Granted, she'd be 17 by the time the child was born, should she decide to continue the PG. That's older than some teen mothers. But it's not nearly old enough.

I just feel like my head is spinning. I know in a few days the shock will wear off somewhat. I've only known for 36 hours. And in that 36 hour period I've had the PG news dumped on me by the ex, I've rushed over to try and convince her to not abort (only to make an *ss out of myself because I didn't have the whole story), and now she's here and we're dealing with options and I know I only have a few days with her before she wants to go back over there.

I want to do the right thing. I've just not ever been faced with this (always knew it was a possibility and have lived in fear of it) and am not sure what to do, and don't want to do the wrong thing.

And I've done the wrong things so many times in my life that I'm a little gun-shy now.


PS: Yes, still going to the gym. It's been a very good thing for me. I just haven't made it yet since the weekend, because of everything that has happened. I've sort of not been in the mood. But I need to go maybe tomorrow night to try and burn off some stress. I do feel much better when I leave. And I also may have lunch or dinner again with the lady I had lunch with from my church a couple weeks ago. We were going to meet Thursday night after work, but I may now have to take my DD back to where she's staying, so it's a bit up in the air. I really need a friend right now. R is going to get mighty tired of being the only person I babble to. He's doing well for a guy (because guys want to fix things and he knows he can't), but I can tell that sometimes it's difficult for him because I'm trying to have the kind of conversation a woman would have with another woman with him, and I've spent enough of my life around guys both at home and at work to know it's just not quite the same.

LL

Sorry that you have more emotional burdens to carry..

I'm not pro-life, or for abortions..

IMHO - it's what's best for the person, time of their life, maturity, stability. It doesn't sound like your DD is ready for this. She made the choice to engage in sexual relations - maybe she needs to make the choice of being a mother or not.

I had an abortion when I was 35 - could I have emotionally, financially, had this child - YES...I chose not to..Do I regret that decision - NO...
I was single, though seriously dating the man - who is now my WH. Our child would have been 14 right now, and dealing with a father that was never there emotionally for his first set of children let alone another child.

Your DD deserves a chance to get her life in order a child may not afford her that chance or it could..Is it worth the risk?

HUGS

No big update here overnight because obviously nothing has changed other than I'm now more sleep-deprived than I was last night. I'm not blaming it all on the issues at hand, though. For whatever reason, I finally chose yesterday morning to try the Adderall that the doctor prescribed to me a good 3 weeks ago to see if it would help my ADD tendencies. I've been somewhat reluctant to try a stimulant, because as anxious as I've been, it seemed to be the last thing I'd need.

But yesterday I guess I just decided that if ever I needed clearer thoughts, it was now. So I took one. Overall, I really do think there may have been some impact, and I'm going to take another today, and try it for a couple weeks. But there are some definite effects from it, and the most noticable was an inability to go to sleep or stay asleep for any length of time. It's already been an issue since I went back up to 20mg of Lexapro. I've just gotten to where I was going to sleep a little easier. This threw me for a loop. But I don't want to add yet something else to the mix to make me sleep. I'd really rather be taking nothing at all.

I don't want to give up hope that someday my life will settle down. I am tired of every time something seems to be going a little better, having it all blow up. I realize that most of life's issues for myself and my family stemmed from poor choices of who I married when I was 19. Marry an alcoholic, ask for issues for self and family. But it seems to never end.

Helping my daughter deal with the current situation would have been so much easier had her father not have been the alcoholic he is and had we still been married. We could have leaned on each other for support and advice, and we would have been in a lot better position to offer assistance in raising a child. It's difficult enough to be a single parent of a challenging teen, with no assistance in parenting from her father even without this huge issue added to the mix.

But none of that changes the situation. She made a poor choice (the same poor choice 1000's of teens make) and her luck ran out. We're here now.

I am going to call one of my pastors today. I'm not sure what all it will do other than get some more prayers coming her way. They're really not counselors, and they are both the first to admit that. They'll talk to me, but when things get tough, they've usually recommended I seek professional counseling. I don't want either of them to try and talk to her right now, because she is very anti-religion at the moment and it will just push her further the other way.

I suggested late last night to her that perhaps since she'd gotten the counseling from the women's clinic which focused primarily on assessing her pregnancy and discussing abortion options, that perhaps she should also hear the other options. I offered to take her to Birthright, the prolife place here in town. She refused--not surprised. I'm going to call them today and see if they can offer my any advice.

I did read up a little on the effects of things such as alcohol on early pregnancy and found a small amount of relief where birth defects are concerned. It appears from what I read that things done very early on in a pregnancy are more prone to causing miscarriage, and it's the continued use of alcohol and drugs into the second and third trimesters that have more potential to cause the defects and cognitive issues because that's when the brain is developing.

And because I'm so tired of bad surprises and I try so hard to prevent them, or get a clue they are coming (in this case I failed completely and was blindsided), I asked R several times last night to be honest with me and tell me if this was the last straw for us, because I just wanted a heads-up on whether I should expect him to turn and run. I realize that depending on how things play out, it could change my lifestyle and could have an effect on his as well, should we stay together. But rather than preventing a surprise for me, I think it just created tension because instead of portraying confidence in myself, I'm looking weak and questioning my worth in the relationship which probably makes him question it, too. He says as far as my becoming a grandmother at 40, that makes no difference to him at all in and of itself. Other than that all he can say is, "LL, I've never experienced anything like this before. I don't have any answers, and I probably should shut my mouth and quit offering you advice."

He did make one very stern statement last night that has me questioning my priorities. Somewhere in my stating that I wasn't ready to be a parent to her child and that while I wanted to do what I could to help, I was trying to think of other options, with foster care even being a possibility if she couldn't raise the baby at first.

And he said something to the effect of, "LL, if you're not willing to step up to the plate here, you need to just shut up and not say any more right now." He is a very involved parent and a very good father to his kids almost 6 years after his divorce. And his statement causes me to wonder if it's out of fear that I'm not ready to be more involved should my daughter decide not to abort, or if it's really out of selfishness and the desire to finally have the freedom to live my own life. If it's because of the second reason, that makes me a pretty shallow human being.

LL

Lordslady - Why wasn't she on the pill and using protection if she was sexually active??? Another - I am also prochoice - and basically that choice being hers.... She was adult enough to be having sex she should be adult enough to make the decision. Again you have nothing to be ashamed of - it is your daughter who is in this situation and not you - and contrary to popular believe "good kids" also get pregnant... You cannot make her keep it - or give it away - it has to be a decision that she can live with - but if she decides to keep it - even though it would be your grandchild - it wouldn't be up to you to raise it - or offer alternative plans for her to not step up and take responsibility.... Don't give her the easy way out.... And as for the pastor - I thought that was what they were there for - help and guidance... Use him.. do not be embarrassed or ashamed or afraid he might look at your or her different... No one is perfect... Reach out for help - tell your sister

(((LL)))

I guess I'm curious, what are your rights as the mother of a minor seeking a medical procedure? Would you not have to sign a consent form for her to get her ears pierced? So are parents required to give any consent in this arena, I'm truly ignorant as to the legalities of this....

And PS, your sis may be a good advisor in this case.

I answered my own question about parental consent vs notification which makes no sense to me. But then again, my state has the same thing, only we're the abortion capital of the U.S. I say that because we are one of the few states who also perform partial birth abortions and I don't care what side of the fence you're on, that is wrong.

Anywho, I did want to address this statement:


The prenatal period begins at the moment of conception, and is divided into three developmental periods.

The first stage of prenatal development is the germinal period which begins at the moment of conception and continues through the first two weeks. It is a critical time in terms of the development of serious impairments such as malformation of the limbs, organs, head, face, sensory and/or neurological disorders, and mental retardation. Risks include harmful environmental substances such as anesthetic gases, some antibiotics, environmental pollutants, hormonal agents, recreational drugs, therapeutic drugs, tranquilizers, and excessive doses of vitamins A, B6, D, and K. Maternal viral infections along with serious health conditions, such as kidney disease may also risk the healthy development of a baby.

The second stage of prenatal development is called the embryonic period, which is the time between the second and eighth week after conception. During the embryonic period the heart begins to beat, the development of the liver, brain, kidneys, and digestive tract begin as well as the start of the formation of the ears, eyes, eye lids, jaw, nose, lip, tongue and spinal cord.

Interesting tidbit when it comes to minors and abortion

21 states require parental consent (with 2 of those requiring the consent of both parents.)

13 states simply require parental notification (with 1 state requiring the notficiation of both parents.) Several states, such as Iowa, also will allow notification of a grand parent as substitution for PN.

16 states have niether parental notification nor parental consent laws on the books or they have been overturned.

It's interesting. I'd like to know what all these states laws are on piercing of minors or tattooing of minors.

Maw,

My daughter wasn't on the pill because she chose not to be. I have hounded her on a monthly basis since her PG scare a year ago, trying to get her to go in and get on BC. She has refused because she was too embarassed to go to a doctor for the pelvic exam that comes with getting on the pill. At this point, I think she unfortunately realizes she's in for a lot more than that. She has agreed that once this is all over, she WILL be on BC.

I realize that whether I like it or not, the law says the choice is ultimately hers. My issue is that A) she's a minor and I'm her custodial parent and B) it's my grandchild (another human life that is dear to me, even though he or she is just a tiny thing at this point. So I do have some strong emotions that I'm dealing with, where if it were just an acquaintance, the impact wouldn't be the same.

I'm not ashamed of myself that she's PG, it could have easily been my ex and myself at her age (though we DID use BC faithfully). I'm ashamed because I feel I've failed at parenting her, and this is just further proof. And I feel rather guilty about not being 100% willing to step up and 100% parent her child, if that's what it would take to get her to not abort.

LH,

There are 20-some states that still require parental consent for a child under 18, but unfortunately I don't live in one of them.

The "magical" age here in Iowa seems to be 16 for everything. A child can quit school without parents' permission at that age. They can get piercings all over their bodies at that age without parental consent (can't get tattoos though). They can consent to sex at that age, and as long as the partner isn't more than 5 years older than them, they're breaking no law (found that out yesterday from the police). And now I have found out that they can get an abortion without parental consent. They are required by Iowa law to "notify" a parent. The clinic did that when they sent the letter to my ex stating that his daughter was seeking an abortion. But she can chose to do it whether or not we grant her permission.

It seems absurd to me, because it's allowing a minor to consent to a medical procedure that can have serious risks if they don't take care of themselves, yet taking the choice for that decision totally out of the hands of the parents who are responsible for her health and welfare until she's 18 (or emancipated, which she's not).

I was angry enough last night to fire emails (professionally written and calm) to my US and State Senators and Representatives regarding my frustration with the laws. I further stated that it makes no sense that this same child who can consent to an abortion cannot yet legally smoke, drink, enter into legal contracts, or vote. If she's not considered mature enough to do these things, how is she considered mature enough to make such a critical decision?

--------------------------------------------------------
The latest word from my daughter is that she wants me to take her back to Iowa City tonight. And because I promised I'd take her back when she was ready to go, I have to keep that promise (though I'm still trying at this point to get one more night at home with her.) I'm sure although she said she'll 'consider' other options to get me off the phone just now, she'll waste little time getting back to that clinic and getting things taken care of.

LL

LH,

Guess we were posting at the same time.

But so you don't have to sort through my post to get this...

Yep, you can abort a child in Iowa at 16 without parent's consent, but by golly you can't get a tattoo until you're 18. Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?

(Don't even get me started on partial birth abortions!)

LL

Lordslady - what does her boyfriend say??? That he wants her to get an abortion??? And again I am not saying that you are embarrassed or ashamed - I was saying that it happens to good and bad kids... But really if she doesn't want the child or cannot handle the child - than she has to be adult enough to make that decision... As much as you want it to be one way or the other - she has to make the decision and live with it every day of her life... Like I said I am prochoice - I can see all sides of the issue but in my heart I think it boils down to the person who is pregnant and I know people agree and/or disagree... But I don't think you have failed as a parent - I think that parenting is the hardest job in the world and well it is easy to parent a good child - just the difficult ones make it not so easy... I think you should take the approach that well you don't agree with your daughter - and then state your reasons - why - that you will stand behind her decision - 100% - that this may actually though not the best way - bring the two of you closer together.. but I don't see what this has to do with your boyfriend and your relationship - AGAIN this should be about your daughter and your daughter alone.... Not your relationship with him... that is why I think some people see "I"s in this .... I mean - This is about your daughter - and how your handle your relationship with your daughter... I mean she wanted to be the adult - let her be one.... Did your ex have anything to say???

Wow. What a mess!

First of all, let me say that I sympathize with you. My sister has 2 daughters (I have not had to face this, I have 2 sons--Thank God!!) both of whom became pregnant and now each have sons just 3 months apart (they are 5 y.o. now). They were 15 and 17 when they got pregnant. The 15 year old claimed she was not sexually active to her Mom (I knew better and told my sis to take her to the dr. because I thought she was pregnant) and the older one had BC pills but didn't take them because she smoked and didn't want to stop.

The fathers of their boys are both deadbeats (typical)--one is in prison and has been for most of the last 5 years and the other one is in and out of his child's life--mostly out.

They have had a tough time of it, I'm not going to lie to you. It's hard being a teen mother because like in my nieces' case, the fathers may hang around for a little while but soon beat it and the mothers are forced to take care of their children alone. We now have 2 little boys in our family that we all love dearly so it worked out for the best. My little great nephews are the best of friends so it was good for them that their mothers were pregnant at the same time in the long run. At the time though, it was extremely stressful (as you can imagine), especially for my sis.

My advice to you is, be there to support her in whatever decision she makes (but make your role in the child's life clear if she decides to keep it). It's her child, her body. She has the legal right to make this decision and she is the one that will have to live with it. I always told my nieces to PREVENT the pregnancy from happening because once you're pregnant, no matter what choice you make, it's pretty tough. If they decide to keep it, without family support, it's difficult with no education, no $$, no nothing. If they decide to have an abortion, they have to live with killing their unborn baby. If they give it up for adoption they have to deal with the fact that someone else is raising their child. It's hard no matter what they decide to do.

As for you, I would suggest that you stop looking at this as you are going to raise this baby if she decides to have it. You should make it clear that you will support her decision to keep the baby but it is HER baby, not yours. Your role will be as grandmother only. If she makes the decision to keep it then the baby is HER responsibility. If you don't make this tough on her then who's to say she won't get pregnant again and you'll be raising 2 kids?

As for your BF, if y'all are planning on getting married, then you may as well know now if he will be there for the bad times as well as the good ones. This is as good a time as any to find that out BEFORE you marry him. Is he going to abandon you when you need him the most? Better to know that now.

Interesting side note.... Not trying nor do I wish to have an abortion debate but I find this totally flawed. Look at this:

Almost every state has laws about tattooing minors regardless of parental consent. The vast majority of the states have said no tattoo until your 18, some have even said 21, the only state that I found that allows it on minors is Arizona, who will allow it on 14 year olds.

Some states have totally outlawed it, some have regulated it to a point where it isn't practical (such as saying it must be done by a person licensed to practice medicine or dentistry), some states have said no tat's within an inch of the eye, some no tat's above the jaw bone, some no tat's above the neck. I only found one state, Nebraska, who is not regulated.

Not that I'm on some tattoo kick here, but I wonder why such tough and basically uniform laws on that and such lax laws on abortion. Don't they say that tat's are permanent and life changing, so they should only be received by adults, well what is abortion....?

Maw,

Her boyfriend was non-committal when we all went to lunch. He's told his mother, but I also don't think he really desires to raise a child. I certainly don't see him as a stellar father.

I have told my daughter that regardless what she chooses, I will love her and be there for her. I'm not at a point where I can agree with a decision of abortion, but neither will I stop her if that's what she decides (and as I said, I think chances of any other outcome are slim to none). I am trying to prepare myself for it, but it will probably be something that once it happens, I do my level best to put it completely out of my mind and never bring it up again.

I've spoken more with the ex's fiancee than to him, because he's angry. When I tried to call him yesterday after we returned home, he immediately hung up on me. So I called her and filled her in. She says what everyone else does (and she had two children in her teens, one of whom she doesn't have custody of). She says just support my daughter, tell her I love her, and let her make her own decision, because she's the one who has to live with it.

TexasBlondie,


I totally agree! Even though I've preached abstinance to her since she was little, I was also smart enough to know that she was sexually active, and so have also pushed for months to get her on birth control to no avail. Now she is faced with pain no matter which way she goes. There is no easy out now. And I don't see the father of this child being any kind of a real father at all. He is not dumb, but he is not trying to do anything at all with his life. He lives the same irresponsible "let's have fun 24/7" life that she lives, and he's 20.

I guess I look at raising the baby as possibly my responsibility because if it came down to it and I felt the child was in an unsafe or improper home, I'd first try to be more involved and if that didn't work, I might have to call for intervention temporarily in who has custody. And rather than having the child go to a foster home, in all reality, I'd probably feel the responsiblity to try and be the guardian instead, to keep her/him in the family. But I am SO not ready to do that, not in my situation.

As for my BF, we don't have any formal marriage plans at this point. It has been discussed. He's not saying he'd not be there--he's just saying that he really doesn't know what to do right now because he's never been faced with a situation like this and so it seems about as surreal to him as it does to me right now. I don't think either of us are sure what kind of impact it will have on our relationship. I'm just the paranoid one who always assumes the worst, and assumes it will impact it negatively.

LH,

I agree, we better keep the abortion debate off this board and I've tried to do that. My focus here hasn't been on abortion in general, but the fact that it can be done by a 16-year-old without parental consent here in Iowa. You make a great point with the tattoo law. What has more potential for long-term impact on a person's life (or more chance of medical complications, assuming both procedures--the tattoo and the abortion--are done in licensed settings)?

I'm fairly certain that the infertility that can result from a medical error during the abortion procedure or not following proper aftercare is a lot more serious than the skin infection and possible scarring a person might get from a tattoo. (Oh...soapbox. Time to quit.)

But I think I mentioned (not going back and rereading my post as I type this) that I emailed my Senators and Representatives. My state senator emailed me back today agreeing with my situation and my frustrations, apologizing that nothing can be done that will immediately help me, but encouraging me to share my story with the Governer's office and with all the legislative sessions that are currently in process and try to make a difference for other parents who might be faced with the situation in the future.

I'm just not wanting to make such a big issue that her name and information ends up going public. I don't want her to suffer for some point I'm trying to prove, but I also think it's a terrible law and I feel in a way like I should do what I can to try and make a difference.

Thoughts? I'm nuts, maybe??

LL

Update: I just heard back from my State Representative and have responded to the questions he asked me.

On one hand, I seriously doubt my ability to make much difference at all in this area. But then again, if everyone thought that way, no laws would ever change. I have no idea how to go about trying to convey my message to my state government. But the more I think on it, the more I feel it's something I need to do, because I feel so strongly about this issue.

Anyone ever undertaken something like this?

LL

Okay, I realize this topic at this point probably has no place on a Divorce and Dating site (except that it does relate to my daughter, who does have an impact on my dating relationships). So I'm posting...

In doing a little research on the Iowa Legislature's website I found a bill currently in the House that addresses the change from "parental notification" to "parental consent". Looks like someone else thinks it's important, too. I've asked what I can do to show my support for the bill and asked to be kept informed.

LL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Sorry...

Hope she will make decision to live pleased and happy with.

Yeah, it's all their fault you threw a tantrum because they didn't illegally divulge confidential medical information. How dare they refuse to break the law to satisfy you.

Awwww... C'mon MOS, tell us how you really feel, no seriously, don't hold anything back. I think we're treading on slippery ground on this one because we're dealing with Parents Rights vs A MINOR'S Right to Privacy and a MINOR'S Right to Seek Risky Medical Procedures without Parental Consent.

I have to say, I would have not been a happy camper myself if my daughter was in ANY doctors office and I wasn't allowed access. I dunno, I think the state has over stepped it's bounds on this issues and stripped the parent of any rights, which IMVHO is not a good thing....

ROFL. So your personal opinion is that you don't agree with the law, so others should break it for the convenience of those who agree with you?

How very sad. Should you get your required parental consent law passed, by your logic it doesn't apply anyway, since if anyone disagrees with it others have to break it to satisfy them.

Geez, MOS, do you have a reading problem? Cause I never said any of that. I did say that I understood her and would have been upset as well and further that yes I disagree with laws that take away parents rights.

I guess in a sense I was having a call for compassion from you rather than blowing up on someone who is going through a tramatic experience on a very slippery slope issue....

(Trying my best to keep from responding in anger to your last sentence.)

My daughter is a minor. I am her mother, her legal guardian and custodial parent who is responsible for her health and wellbeing. It seems absurd to me that a minor, who can't legally smoke, drink, vote, sign legal documents, or for that matter even get a tattoo can consent to a medical procedure that is not without serious health risks and do so without any kind of parental consent.

Let me throw in a hypothetical scenario: Because consent of parents isn't required, what if my daughter gets the abortion, and because consent isn't require nor can medical information be released, I have no idea when it happens. My daughter is 16 and has little idea how to take care of herself. She's not good with medications and she ignores health issues until they become severe. What if she has complications (bleeding, infection, etc) from the procedure? What if she doesn't contact me if this happens (because she's embarassed or whatever--it was embarassment about a gyn exam that kept her from going on The Pill in the first place)? What if she ends up infertile or very ill because of lack of proper medical care, because her parent wasn't aware of what happened or when it happened?

My point is that if consent was required for an abortion in Iowa, I wouldn't have even been faced with the situation I was in because I would have known she wasn't there for the abortion appointment. In this case, I knew she could do it without consent, and because no one could give me even a smidgeon of information, I assumed something that wasn't true, I was VERY angry because it not only involved my minor child but my unborn grandchild, and I hadn't even been given the opportunity to talk to my daughter beforehand. And yes, I was very angry and very emotionally distraught. I'm willing to bet I'm not the first parent who has responded this way and I certainly won't be the last. There are very few situations in my life where I've felt the pain and the total inability to be involved in such a critical situation with my own minor child as I did that day. (And for those who are pro-choice, they won't understand this next point, but also the agony I felt at the assumed destruction of a little human life who is related to me...and I realize if she chooses to abort, I will go through that last piece all over again.)

Can't remember if I mentioned this before, but the police who originally were called to nail me for trespassing ended up being very supportive, and one even called the city attorney for me while we were waiting, to see what could be done, and they not only encouraged me to be there for my daughter afterwards (thinking at the time the abortion was happening) because they said she'd need me in a few years when it all hit her and she had the regrets, but once she did call me, one of the officers also spoke with her on the phone to try and facilitate a meeting so that I would have the opportunity to talk to her before the REAL appointment.

At any rate, MOS, I can't remember right now if you are a parent or not. Because I'm pro-life in general, I guess I don't know how I would have responded if I were pro-choice and facing the same situation.

All I know is that while I have resigned myself to accepting the decision she decides to make (which has not yet completely been decided) and will always love her no matter what her decision, I AM pursuing whatever I can to support a change in Iowa law that would require not just "notification" but "consent" before the procedure can be performed on a woman under 18. It won't help this situation, but if the law were changed, maybe it would help some other parent in my situation down the road.

LL

Blowing up? LOL, it's funny you should say that and complain about reading comprehension at the same time. All I did was point out lordslady's blameshifting, when that blameshifting can only harm her.

If that bothers you, it's worth taking a look at your own compassion. Declining to call someone on blaming their tantrums on others is the opposite of compassion in my book.

LH,

You and MOS were doing your little back-and-forth while was posting.

Anyway, thanks for the support. And yes, this situation truly bites. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and I could see the pain in my daughter last night as I was driving her back to Iowa City (as I'd promised her I'd do if she'd just come home for a while). Ultimately she's the one who has the really difficult decision to make and I ache for her.

But as for the whole pro-life/pro-choice debate (which I think is fueling the argument from MOS and some other moreso than the parental rights vs. privacy thing), I am very used to being in the minority, because I've been pro-life since I was a teenager (ironically, from the point I did a persuasive speech in high school, originally on pro-choice because I was a liberal little non-Christian thing back then, and once I'd compiled all my supporting documentation, read the articles and viewed the photos, I was sick--and have been pro-life ever since).

Anyway, my pro-life beliefs are a part of why I feel the way I do about my daughter. But the "tantrum" as it was accurately described was completely caused by my parental rights being non-existant and my ability to be involved being denied. I was furious.

LL

LL, I understand your explanation, and I did when I read it the first time.

That still does not make it remotely ok to throw tantums when people refuse to break the law for you.

Nor does it make it anything other than harmful *to you* to blame others for your own tantrums.

MOS,

While I recognize my tantrum did little to further my cause and so was pointless, I don't feel guilt or a need to apologize for reacting the way I did.

In this case, I'm sorry but the law, in my eyes, is ridiculous and harmful, and it was a moment where I really could have cared less what the law was. My mission was to be allowed the opportunity to protect my daughter (or at least make sure she had discussed all options with her parent and not just some abortion clinic nurse) and perhaps my grandchild. And when my ability to do that was being stripped away, I came out swinging, so to speak.

LL

Amen!!!!!

Being denied access to a child whom you are trying to protect, yeah, I think most parents would do just about anything to try to work around that, including throwing a tantrum....

LL, I may not agree with your relationship issues but I'm with you on this one and hope that you do follow through with the pending law change so that other parents do not have to go through the terror of helplessness you must have felt.

I have to say that MOS has a point. LL, you are in control of yourself, your responses to outside sources, your attitude, your anger. I can totally understand your being upset and angry at the situation you found yourself in but you should not blame them for your response. That was totally in your control.

About the only times I've thrown fits or tantrums have to do with one of my sons or the other so I can understand your position. But they were only doing their job and they were doing it within the confines of the laws as they are currently on the books in your state.

I'm not blaming anyone for the way I reacted (that includes myself).

What I'm angry about is the law itself and I was reacting to the impact it was having on my daughter and myself at that moment. And the person or persons who were upholding this law got the brunt of my anger.

LL

And by the way, not going back and asking my daughter if she wished for me to come back to speak with her, but instead telling me I'd have to speak with a supervisor and then doing a quickie exam and hustling her and her boyfriend out the back door of the clinic while they had me waiting to speak to the supervisor--it may be upholding the law in the legal sense, but it seems rather underhanded to me.

LL

First, I'd just like to say that I'm sorry for the pain and turmoil you and your daughter are experiencing right now. I hope you can find some time to take care of yourself - often, during times of stress when we need it most, we care for ourselves the least.

I just want to quickly comment on what you said above about the 'underhandedness' of the clinic. I suspect that they made a calculated decision to keep you away from your daughter as part of their normal safety policy.

Now, I'm sure you wouldn't hurt your daughter - or probably anyone else for that matter - but, in this day and age, you have to be very careful with people. You don't know who's carrying a gun or is capable of killing patients and/or staff.

All the staff witnessed was a very upset woman who was (in your own words) throwing a tantrum. They couldn't possibly have known that if they'd let you back there violence wouldn't have occurred. Think of it this way - had it been some other highly upset, volitile parent, going back into a patient area (possibly with a weapon) would you want the staff to let that person back there where your daughter might be being treated?

I understand that you were upset and even why you were upset. I know you don't like the laws as they stand. But, the clinic has a responsibility to keep its staff and patients safe from people who might be emotionally overwrought enough to do something harmful. As much as you might never do such a thing - they can't afford to take those kinds of chances.

Mys

How utterly shameful. I can't help but feel sorry for someone who is so far gone that they think throwing tantrums at strangers who refuse to break the law for them is ok.

MOS, we've agreed on some things in the past but I think you're in left field on this one and taking jabs at LL ain't going to help her.

But I do agree it's utterly shameful. I can't help but to feel sorry for someone who can't relate to the confusion, frustration, and pain LL experienced and thinks rubbing her nose in an already tragic situation is OK.....

LOL, you saying I can't relate and me not being able to relate are not the same thing, nor even related. Hmmm, that seems to have beaten that word to death.

Sorry Bill, but in this case your notion of compassion is just too narrow and limited in my opinion, especially if it means claiming an inability on my part that's a product of your imagination.

Should have been all of this BEFORE she got pregnant and maybe she wouldn't find herself in a clinic wrestling with the notion of what to do with HER unborn baby.

She's old enough to make the baby..she's old enough to decide what SHE wants to have happen. Yes you may have your opinion as to what she should or shouldn't do..but the ultimate decision is hers alone. It is HER body. Like it or not.

MOS..I'm with you on this one also...seems like she's always shifting blame...whether it's her daughter who has no respect for her or her man she says she shouldn't have sex with but does.

"My mission was to be allowed the opportunity to protect my daughter"

"I am her mother, her legal guardian and custodial parent who is responsible for her health and wellbeing."



All these months I have heard how you slept with some guy and thought you were pregnant. Then you met your current BF and how you struggled with sex issues with him. People were telling you that you had your daughter to focus on, instead of men in your life. You made all kind of excuses as to why it was so difficult for you to deal with your daughter, you pretty much gave up on her.

Why were you not protecting her before? Why were you not acting like a responsible parent?

Yes, I am angry, because your daughter should have been your first priority not men!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

MOS, Alluring, Immovingon,

Thanks so much for your support and compassion in this difficult time. I'm sure all this wisdom you've offered me comes from the fact that you've lived my life and witnessed my parenting and my interraction with my daughter over the last several years.

(When someone is wounded, I generally want to try and lift them up, not finish them off.)

LL

Your choice not to really hear what I've been saying doesn't mean that I've "tried to finish you off"; it merely means that you prefer that delusion to the truth.

I called you on your shameful behavior out of compassion for the wretched way you treat yourself. Your indulgence of your habits of self-centeredness and the anger problems they create has brought you to this place, where when faced with a major epoch in her life, your daughter doesn't want your participation, and no wonder since apparently what you offer her is the shame of having to hide from and be protected from the pathetic lunatic screaming how medical personnel won't break the law to suit her. It's terrible to see you doing this to your life.

But if you prefer to call anything you don't like to hear unpleasant names, that's certainly your choice.

Once again you shift the blame on someone else....US...for telling you like it is. I gave up giving you support and compassion once I realized how you thrive on this crap!

The only thing we have witnessed is your non-stop denial and self-inflicted drama.

LL,

I am truly sorry that your daughter is going through this, my heart goes out for her.

I have 5 children and understand fully how each have their own individuality and issues.

LL, for months people have been telling you to focus on your daughter, they have given you tons of ideas as how you can help her. All you seem to do is make excuses as to why you couldn't do what was advised.

I truly hope this situation have opened your eyes and perhaps now you will place your daughter as your first priority, not BF.

Just an aside...one of the reasons abortion without parental consent was set up is because there are situations where the young woman/girl has been molested/raped by her father. He certainly doesn't want this being brought up to anyone. Typically the daughter is too intimidated by the father. There can be threats about what he'll do to her mother if she finds out. What he'll do to her. Or, she has to insure her father will never find out about the pregnancy as it could lead to further physically abusive behavior.

Although this may seem rare, unfortunately it isn't. Incest is rampant in our society. I know. I've counseled a lot of incest survivors.

I've also been witness to situations where the parents of the pregnant girl refuse to permit an abortion because "you made your bed now lay in it!" Or, a young woman gets raped and wants to abort, but her parents refuse. It's hard when the person is a "minor". Because they will ultimately have to live with the choice into adulthood. So, if abortion is denied, they may end up raising a child they never wanted.

I'm not taking a stand one way or the other on pro-choice. Just thought I'd share some of what goes into these types of laws. There are some states that allow a grandparent to sign for the child under these circumstances. Some require that the young woman goes before a judge to be granted permission, with the court serving as temporary guardian.

Hmmm. LL I'm sorry about what you and your daughter are going through. It's a tough time for both of you.

I think Dr. Phil's phrase that goes something like this: you can't change behavior that you don't acknowledge, is generally pretty helpful and I think it applies to you.
(I'm not quoting because I don't remember exactly the way he puts it but I'm dang close.)

I think you have gotten some excellent advice here. Maybe you could try not being so defensive and pay more attention to what has been said.

Just a thought.

Ok, I haven't said anything up until this point, but....

There is a distinct difference between helpful advice and mean-spirited piling on. And a few of the latest posts I've seen on here have fallen distinctly into the latter category. Those of you who are doing it, you know who you are. Don't bother defending yourself or giving reasons - there's no excuse for that kind of behavior. And you really are not someone to be giving LL advice on how to live or raise her child or anything if that is the kind of example you are setting in trying to do so.

For any of those who have been piping in with this type of a "holier-than-thou" attitude that we've been witnessing on here recently, the phrase you should start thinking about is "but for the grace of God go I." There have been plenty of wonderful parents in this world who have raised criminals, murderers, and the like, and plenty of parents who could only be called such only by the most loose definition of the word that have turned out pillars of society.

Constructive advice is one thing, but telling someone in so many words that she is a horrible parent and that if she hadn't been a horrible parent, she wouldn't be in this situation is in no way, shape, or form constructive. It doesn't belong here. It's offensive. You only know about her life what little has been printed on these boards, and that's it. And no one here is qualified to make those kinds of judgements about ANYONE here.

So everyone here that's been climbing up on those high horses needs to just climb right on back down again. Sheesh. I don't think there's anything wrong with telling someone some hard truths at times when he or she needs to hear it. But that is NOT what is going on here, and I think those involved will admit it if they are honest with themselves.

And trust me, it takes a LOT, a WHOLE LOT, to get me mad. And right now, I am royally ticked. I have lost some patience with LL on a few things myself before, but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to go saying stuff like this to her. This is ridiculous, and a few of you out there should really be ashamed of yourselves right now.

Thank-you osxgirl - I was feeling the same way myself, but certainly couldn't have expressed myself as well as you just did.

deleted b/c question was answered

There's two.... in so many words. Which means that no, what I said was not a direct quote of what any one person said, but WAS essentially the implied meaning behind the whole general drift of the last part of this thread. And it was. And I know I'm not the only one who can see that.


As I said, and as a number of people here were so quick to tell LL, I don't want to here excuses or blame shifting. I just want the abuse of LL to stop now.

Oh, and to LL..... I'm sorry that some people couldn't manage to read those posts again on their own, and you had to see them posted again a second time. Please do forgive me for that.

Most times, when I've had a few hours time and distance such as this, I find my anger has usually cooled, and Iook back and things don't seem as bad as they did on the first read-through.

This time, I find I am actually angrier!!!!!!

To be honest, I think the best thing here would be for a moderator to close this thread, and for LL to open a new support thread, with the hope that those who do not understand what CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is would keep their - to use the word loosely - opinions to themselves.

Does that clarify that this is the right thread?

I have not been a perfect parent. There are things I regret doing or not doing over the years. Hindsight is 20/20. One child has done very well; one has not. But don't ever suggest that my daughter isn't a high priority for me. You have no idea what my involvement has been with her or how many things I've done to try and help her. Things that work for one child don't always work for another. I believe she would have been best served by a stay-at-home-mom who could have been involved in her life 24/7 during her earlier years, given her ADHD/ODD, but that wasn't an option. Having her father begin his affair at the same time she was dropped from her IEP and started high school, and having a mother who did nothing but "exist" (sleep, work, cook, do laundry, and sleep again) for the first six months after all h*ll broke loose couldn't have been worse timing either. Everyone who knows me personally (my family, my friends, my pastors) ALL agree that the turning point with her happened two years ago when the family fell apart. And the vast majority of those same people, as well as the therapist she used to see and the therapist I now see have told me that she is at an age where control, consequences, or punishments won't work. She has decided she's an adult, and I've been told that the best thing I can do is let her go and be there for her at the point she decides it's not working, but with rules so that she is no longer allowed to walk all over me, because that does a disservice to both of us.

And as for her being pregnant, it's not just "bad girls" who get pregnant as teens. Granted, she is not a "good girl". But the fact is, if a teen is sexually active, no matter what lifestyle they're living otherwise, there is a risk of pregnancy. That's why I preached abstinance to both my kids from an early age AND why despite my disagreement with her being sexually active, I have tried repeatedly over the last year to get her on birth control.

Because this thread has gotten so ugly, and has strayed so far from it's intended purpose which was to let people know what was going on and to seek some support, I have refrained from posting today--until now. I don't like that everyone is arguing with everyone else, nor have the jabs flying around in some of the posts helped my or my daughter's situation in any positive way.

I understand we all have different opinions about parenting, but I also believe that we should watch how judgemental we are about other peoples' parenting, because all kids are different and your parenting skills might not have caused my daughter to turn out any differently than she did with my parenting. If yours are good kids, be thankful.

That said, for those of you who care what is going on, my daughter is back in Iowa City. She called last night to check in and visited briefly. She hasn't made her decision yet.

LL

Osxgirl,

I think we were posting at the same time, so I repeated some of what you posted.

This may sound odd, but if one is to look for some good that has come from this thread, it reminds me how important it is to be non-judgemental and compassionate to others, and how we should think about how we are responding to someone who is hurting, to make sure we're responding in love. I'm not always good at that either, so it's sort of a personal lesson for me here.

LL

LL- I know what you are going through and my prayers are with you. I think people have a hard time realizing what dealing with a rebellious teen girl is like until they have been through it.

I went through it with my step-daughter. I tried being her friend, tried spending time with her, setting boundaries, getting counseling. None of it worked.

I knew she was sexually active (though I had talked to her about abstinence from an early age), so I physically took her to the doctor for the BC shots that last 4 months. That was when she was 15. I continued taking her until she turned 18. Then she told me that her body was her own, and she would do what she wanted with it.

Six months later, I got an insurance claim rejection letter for her. It was for $800. I called my insurance company and they refused to tell me why it was not paid. It hit me that it must be for an abortion, as they are not covered under Federal workers' insurance.

Sure enough, I questioned her and that was what it was. I explained that I don't believe in abortions, and for her to please use BC, or not involve my insurance. Two months later, another claim denied. Another abortion.

At that time, I removed her from my insurance.

Well, you guessed it. She got pregnant again almost immediately. I spoke to her lovingly and asked her to consider keeping the baby or having it and giving it up for adoption. She decided to have the boy and keep him.

She is now married to the father and has 2 boys, and she is doing just fine.

My point is that these young ladies cannot be controlled. I did my level best, but it wasn't good enough.

Sorry I stand by what I said...If you don't like it or don't agree with it...don't read it. LL knows it's the truth she has admitted it several times. I'm not about to apologize. You may get pissed because we tell her like it is but we get pissed because she constantly whines about things rather than stepping up and fixing them.

Good Day!

You know Allurin, I've been posting to LL for a long time. I've given her advice that she ignores. So I know exactly what you are talking about.

But, you know, she is making changes. Way back when, we couldn't convince her to leave her alcoholic husband. But she did.

I think she is struggling like the rest of us. It is always so much easier to look at someone else's situation and know exactly what to do.

And I think I'll keep reading your posts. I always enjoy them - well, most of them.

You're right believer

I just know the crazy stuff I did. I was a complete mess. And it has taken me 3 years to make the changes I needed to make.

Thanks osxgirl for the clarification. I do see what you mean; they don't say "bad parent", but I see what you're getting at, though I think your post was as "mean-spirited" in language as any. I'll delete my question.

LL, I don't think for a second that there was any way of parenting that would have guaranteed your daughter did not engage in harmful behaviors. Kids are completely separate people; chaos ensues from that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But you've done a lot to make the situation more volatile, not less, and to get yourself further from your stated goals.

You and your daughter both chose recently to risk unwanted pregnancy. She chose a partner who cares enough to go with her to her assessment appointment, whereas you chose one who wasn't interested in you or "your problem", only his own momentary pleasure. You posted here about blaming your daughter for your romantic difficulties, an adversarial attitude she was bound to pick up on.

So, by your example it's reasonable for her to see you as an adversary when it comes to her relationship with her boyfriend. And given that in recent sexual history, in some ways she's been doing better at decision-making than you, it's not surprising if 16-year-old logic decides to trust her judgement over yours.

Now you could try to talk to her reasonably and use all that "building up" and compassion and support and so forth that you like to demand for yourself. If you kept at it without fail for a while, it would probably yield results. Instead you made a shameful public spectacle of yourself with a fit of unreasonable rage. Now your daughter's previously personal view of you as adversarial is confirmed publicly and supported by many disinterested adults who have to act to protect your daughter's safety from you, since you were busy demonstrating clearly threatening behavior. And you've vastly reduced the likelihood that adults familiar with her situation would tell her that she should at least give her mother's opinion a hearing.

Alluring, why do you keep reading and posting to her? Just curious....

DW

Thanks, MOS. I do disagree about mine being mean-spirited... I have a VERY sharp tongue when I get angry, and I struggled greatly to keep that under control through this, and to keep it to the matter at hand and to not be personally insulting, which does no one any good.

I hadn't said anything personally to LL throughout this because I feel a lot of compassion for her situation, but did not know what kind of advice I could give her that would be constructive. In that situation, I feel it's best to remain silent. And as I said before, I don't have a problem with people being even a little harsh. I still don't necessarily agree with everything you are saying to her, but at least it's something that she can either choose to use as advice or not - something that may help her now. But attacking her past actions and saying that's the reason she and her daughter are in this whole mess just smacks of smug self-righteousness, and does nothing to actually help her at all. On the contrary, it just serves to beat her down even more in a situation that's already pretty bad.

If all I'd seen was this post you just put up, I never would have jumped in in the first place. I'm glad you at least can see the distinction here. Thanks.

osxgirl, I can't but grin at that, since I'm rather a notorious wielder of the cluebat. We all do the best we can to be effective, and thank goodness this board has a good mix of styles to choose from.

I have debated whether or not to continue to read this thread, but at this point I still am, and trying to separate the helpful from the unhelpful.

I'm not really sure what is helpful at this point. I know that dwelling on past events is not helpful and only serves to fuel my feelings of failure with her. So I'm trying to focus forward.

Believer, I do appreciate your recognition of at least some change in me over the past couple years. (BTW, looking back now I can't believe how dumb it was to throw so much effort and emotions into trying to save my marriage for all those months--I had a rare long conversation with the 'ex' yesterday. It's frightening how messed up his life is, and I realized how sane mine is in comparison.)

Yes, I am very stubborn--I recognize that--and so when I see it in my daughter I know she comes by it naturally. Some things take a long time to sink in, and if I don't agree with something, it may never sink in, even if it's the right thing. I wish I were more "pliable". I'm working on some of that with my therapist.


That is what I'm trying to do now, in the few moments I get to speak with her. It's what I wanted to do before the Tuesday appointment (and thought I'd lost that opportunity when she was already back in the exam room when I got to the clinic). It's actually what I've tried to do with the time I've gotten to spend with her one-on-one over the last couple years, since her father left (once I got past the 'existing' stage). In some respects, our relationship is better now than it was 2 years ago. She still has some very angry outbursts, but she is much more willing to talk openly with me and share things about her life now than she was back then. Two years ago she wouldn't even give me her friends names or phone numbers. She's also done better about calling and staying in touch when she's not at home. But she's continued to make her own decisions despite anything I or anyone else tried to do, and they've not been good ones.

And because we're all aware I am not good with boundaries and she is a carbon copy of her father who is a "taker" to the extreme, it's been a very bad combination. I don't agree that my dating has taken away from my time with her, or made her less important. When she's reached out for me, I've been there. She may feel some jealousy (just assuming--she's not actually said this) because there is someone else in my life, but had her father and I had a normal marriage, where he wanted to spend time with me, she'd have dealt with that anyway. She and her brother were both frustrated with me when I first started dating, because I had 2-3 dates per week there for a couple weeks and was dating a couple different guys at the same time, which they didn't agree with. Once I started seeing only R, their comments about my dating ceased.


I do need to clarify something here. The HUGE MISTAKE I made last summer with the PG scare was with a guy I had no intention of a long-term relationship with (which makes it that much worse). I'm not sure how he would have handled it. He may have ultimately been supportive, had I ended up PG. It never got there, but I ended that dating relationship right after the incident anyway. Overall he was a responsible guy with a full-time, respectable job. In contrast, while my daughter's boyfriend may have indeed went with her to the consult appointment, he is a 20-year-old guy working part-time at a sandwich place, he's bounced all over the country for the last several years sponging off friends, he's disrespectful, and he and a friend sit around and smoke weed most evenings. They will also often leave and not come back to where my daughter is until late at night. And because both he and my daughter are extremely strong-willed and stubborn, they'll get into these arguments that get very verbally ugly. I can SO see my own ex-husband in her boyfruend(although my ex didn't do the nightly weed thing AND he never sponged off anyone). So, don't assume that her guy is a model citizen where the guy I was dating wasn't.

Right now my biggest concern is for my daughter. I haven't heard from her since Thursday evening and have no reliable method of contacting her since I took away her cell phone last fall when she quit school. I have considered getting another cell phone for her, just so I could stay in contact if she's not staying at home, so that I don't sit around worrying about her like I have all day today. But if I do that, it just shows her that once again, someone will bail her out instead of making her step up to the plate.

So all I can do right now is pray that she's safe.

LL

LL -

I do want to say that praying for her, and for the situation, is the best thing you can do at this point. A lot of times we use prayer as our last resort (myself included) when it really should have been our first line of defense! My advice on that one - as hard as it is, put it completely in God's hands. Which means not asking Him for a specific outcome, but just asking Him to help you and your daughter and to do what He knows is best for everyone in this situation.

I know this has been a really rough time for you, and some of the things that have been said here certainly haven't helped. As I told MOS, I don't have a problem with being a little hard on someone if they need it, and I'll admit, there have been times when I've thought you probably did. But you didn't deserve to have the past shoved back in your face and told that you brought all this on yourself. I don't see how that is helpful in the least.

Will I say that some of your past actions have been regrettable, and not great examples? Sure - I think you would admit that. But I think anyone here who is honest will admit that they also have some moments they aren't so proud of. Could some of that have contributed to the problems with your daughter? Maybe - but honestly, I doubt it. Why? Because those incidents came way too late in the cycle - from everything you've said, your daughter was way down this path already. No, if anything influenced her, it was the marriage problems and the problems with your ex. But the fact is, she's an individual with her own personality and her own ideas about how she's going to do things. As you can attest to, right?

As you can see, not a lot of advice here. I don't really think there's a lot to give except pray, and be there for her no matter what. And I do think you should keep trying to be a better example for her... but you know that. It's obvious in so much of what you write. It's just that knowing and doing are two different things. You aren't the only person in the world that struggles with knowing what's right and continuing to put yourself in the wrong situations and do the wrong thing anyway. The Bible is full of examples. In fact, read all of the story of David's life some time. He was very well-loved of God, despite the fact that he very willfully disobeyed on a number of occasions. Sometimes God had to really knock David around a lot to get him to straighten up.

Keep praying, LL, that God will use this situation for the best. It's hard to see now, but who knows - this may be what He uses to help turn your daughter around.

Well LL, there you go again, ignoring what could be helpful to you about my post, and instead blathering on about how you want the situation to be perceived. That's the kind of behavior that makes so many people here disgusted with you.

How you want the situation to be perceived means bugger-all when it comes to getting to where you want to be.

The sooner you learn to just put a cork in it when you feel the urge to start telling people how you want them to perceive you and your actions, and instead really listen to what they're saying, the sooner you'll have a chance of being effective, instead of being the crazy temper lady people roll their eyes at and avoid.

Oh, and "all I can do now for her is pray" is a cop-out. It may be that's all you're WILLING to do, and it's fine for you to make that choice so long as you take responsibility for it, but it's not honest to say that's all you CAN do.

You've done a lot to present yourself as someone not worth listening to in this situation. There are all kinds of things you can do to start repairing that if you choose.

MOS:

I've been reading LL's posts and I truly don't have any advice to give her. I really don't know what I'd do if I found myself in her situation.

You've mentioned that she ignores your advice and that praying for her daughter is a cop-out. Based on how she's acted in the past, I can identify with that perspective as well. Here's my question: what do you suggest that she does with her daughter right now in order to help her through this situation? Do you have any specific suggestions?

LL
The things you are having to deal with are the very things that Al-Anon will teach you. (sound familiar?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) The skills of Tough Love are tough on both parties - but will help you cope with these trials. I think you should make it clear what boundaries you will provide for your daughter, and reinforce that you're there for her (no matter what) within reason. And if that means you change the locks on the door, and she lives in a tool shed and has her baby next to the lawnmower, or has an abortion, then so be it. We as parents cannot live our children's lives for them, no matter how badly we want to. If you are repeatedly telling her what you prefer, and let her know you're there for her (with boundaries) then she will eventually grow up. I think you're continually playing into her world (or enabling) in an unhealthy way, even though it's difficult to realize it when you're in the middle of a crisis. Even though you've given restrictions in some areas, it's possible that other things you're doing/saying are negating that.

I would also suggest that you contact someone in law enforcement - I think the advice you were given in the past(that you were responsible for her even when she leaves home and binges) is erroneous.

I hope you have a better day today.

I don't think I've really given her specific advice on this thread so much as pointed out certain things. And she has followed her standard pattern of changing the subject to avoid points she doesn't like. One way she changes the subject is by complaining that posters aren't coddling her enough, and another is by going into some usually long-winded description of how she wants herself/her situation to be perceived. Both are fairly effective ways to avoid points she doesn't like, even when they could help her.


LOL, you must have mistaken me for someone else. I would never say that. I did say that claiming that "all she can do is pray" is a cop-out. There's a lot more she can do if she chooses.


Sure, and I'm sure if LL respectfully asks for help and actually responds to what is given instead of talking around it or throwing a huff like she usually does, there are probably quite a few people who can give better advice than I.

Like it or not, with regards to the pregnancy the daughter is in many ways an adult under the law. So she can't be ordered what to do with it; one can only respectfully discuss options. LL has done a good job of demonstrating that respectful discussion (in which listening to her daughter would predominate, not the other way around) is not something her daughter can expect from her on this topic.

The public tantrum was a major factor in that. It's highly probable that what her daughter is getting from LL's behavior is that LL doesn't want to talk to her; she wants to talk at her and ram her opinion down her daughter's throat. LL might protest she's not ramming anything, but the public tantrum makes any such protests sound childish and unbelievable.

So my first suggestion is that LL write an extremely respectful letter of apology to the clinic for disrupting their care of their patients, and thanking them for refusing to violate the law because she demanded it, refusing to violate medical ethics because she demanded it, and refusing to violate safety procedure because she demanded it. Include a statement of understanding that they cannot be too careful in protecting their patients, and express gratitude for their careful exercise of safety procedure and medical ethics in her daughter's case. Make sure this all includes a statment of how LL's own behavior was absolutely unacceptable, with no waffling or "but"s.

Write a similar letter to her daughter, including expressions of sorrow that LL chose to act divisively at such a time when her daughter most needs her mother's support and understanding. Again, no waffling or "but"s. Make a copy of the clinic letter for her daughter. Send both those to the daughter with a note asking her if she would like to accompany LL to the clinic when LL delivers the clinic letter and apologises verbally to the staff present as well as delivering the letter.

It's a major start on presenting herself as someone her daughter can talk to instead of the screaming lunatic to run away from.

I haven't read all the responses, but right now is NOT the time to be beligerant to your daughter.

You continually stress and over-stress that you are a Christian, well, right now is the time to WALK THAT WALK with your daughter.

You don't like your mistakes thrown up in your face, don't do it to her.

Call your sister, ask her if she would be willing to talk to her niece about this, this is WHAT Families are for, as well as the Christian community.

Honestly, It doesn't sound like you are concerned about your daughter at all, but more about YOUR own reputation--"I'm not going to tell our Pastor because of how it would make my daughter look" hogwash, it's you are afraid of how it will make YOU look.

Reading all the *I*'s in your post shows you are more concerned about how this will effect YOU, than how it can help your daughter to actually grow up.

This may not be what everyone wanted, but it is what it is,
and it's the natural consequences of her choices.

Since you do not support abortion (nor do I) you need to let her know that you will be there for her no matter WHAT decision she makes. If she decides to have the abortion, even if you disagree with that choice, you need to be there emotionally for her--not judging her. If she decides to have the baby and give it up for adoption, you will still need to be there emotionally FOR HER. If she decides to have the baby and keep it, same thing applies.

If she has the baby, she can apply for assistance, if she and the boy do not get married, she can still get child support, and things like WIC and other support to help her financially where you may not be able to help.

Instead of yelling at her, wrap her in your arms and let her know how much you love her, let her know that your sorry she finds herself in this situation, but that you are there FOR her no matter what she decides.

Stop thinking about yourself and how this MIGHT effect you, and start thinking about your daughter and how YOU as her mother can help her.

Post deleted by Cherished

In response to the latest posts:

Osxgirl,


For some reason I'm having one of my "feeling very distant from God" periods, so this is not coming easy. But I did pray for his hand in things. It's so hard to believe that this could be a positive turning point, when nothing up to this point has been (I've hoped any number of times before that she'd hit a turning point, only to be disappointed). But it's early in this situation.

MOS,

In response to aeri's request that you provide suggestions as to what I might do to help her through the situation, you responded:


No. As wrong as it may be to have this attitude, I can't express sincere gratitude to anyone who does what they do. I left their property when asked to leave, and I don't intend to come back (because I was warned by both them and the police that if I ever entered the property again, I would be arrested for trespassing).

You further stated:


I've spoken with my daughter (the day the whole thing transpired) about how I acted and why it happened. I may be completely off in saying this, but our issues don't seem to be as much related to that incident as they seem to be just due to my lack of agreement with the way she is choosing to live in general and my refusal to provide money.

Avondale,


You are correct here--this is putting me in a very difficult situation. I'm already notoriously bad with boundaries when it comes to her, and now that she's pregnant, I am afraid that if I don't do certain things to take care of her, she or the unborn child may be in danger and I would forever blame myself if something happened. But it's been difficult when, for example, she wanted to come home this weekend and suggested that her boyfriend or her other male friend and her might be visiting. I told her there would be no guys staying in the house. She called me "stupid" and hung up. Since then, she's dropped the visitor idea but still expected me to drive over and get her so she could be home for a few days and attend some local band show she wants to see on Tuesday, and then I was to jump back in the car and drive her back to IC mid-next week. I currently am driving my son's old junker car (I'm between cars myself) and I don't trust his to drive it 230 miles round trip in arctic temps. Oh, and she needs her savings bonds cashed--like NOW--and wanted me to bring her that money when I came tomorrow. And furthermore, since she and three guys think they're renting an apartment over there, she called again today to say she needs a bed and how about I give her my son's futon from his bedroom. Uh..NO! I bought that specifically for that room when he went away to college, so that it's a den when he's gone and it's his guest room when he's home. So she's mad, because how can I expect her to sleep on the floor. So she says, "No baby for you then!"

So...the VERY SCARY new twist seems to be that she's holding this unborn child over my head to make me give her whatever she wants or needs...money, furniture, transportation, groceries, etc.

TR,



I am concerned for my daughter, but I'm also frustrated with her, because no matter what I try to do, as soon as I say something she doesn't want to hear (and that can be as simple as telling her I can't come get her), she abruptly hangs up on me. It's very difficult trying to tip-toe around conversations with her and it's exactly what her dad always did to me. I'm tired of being hung up on, and then called at all hours with the person on the other end making demands of me when THEY need something.

However, if I were afraid of how I would look to my pastor, I certainly wouldn't have confessed my sex outside marriage, or admitted to my prior infidelity. I haven't contacted the pastor yet because generally when I talk to either of them, the first thing they suggest is for me to let them have an opportunity to talk to my daughter. And that's the last thing she wants. I feel uncomfortable telling them that, because they want to help and they think it will help. But the moment you bring up anything related to God to her, she shuts you out.


I have tried to think about how I can help her. I am going through a lot of self-imposed guilt right now because I know any potential grandmother worth anything would step up to the plate and do whatever was necessary to help, and if that meant changing their entire life and raising that grandchild, they'd make the sacrifices to do it. I feel extremely selfish because it truly isn't something I want to do, and I know it should be. My career would need changes (my current position demands longer hours and some weekend work), my free time would no longer be free time, and yes, my dating would either end, or it would be dating with a child in tow. So I'm struggling with my own feelings with all this and why it is that I'm dragging my feet about wanting to make this sacrifice for my daughter because at least the way things stand right now, I see no way she could possibly raise a child herself. She can't take care of her own life in a responsible fashion.

Cherished,


I haven't yet picked up any literature, but have tried numerous times in a very light and non-threatening way to mention things that she needs to be aware of in how she's taking care of herself should she decide to carry the baby. I've laid off discussing abortion vs. having the baby for the moment, though now I'm getting nervous that she's not going to make a decision but is just going to ignore the whole thing until she can't any longer. I don't want to think of her deciding at 12 weeks or at 20 weeks all of a sudden that she's now ready to have that abortion, because that's even more difficult for me to deal with than it'd be if she did it right now.

I've been extremely busy at work as it's my year-end and my auditors will be here next week. In the process of not taking care of myself, I ended up with a stomach virus Wed/Thur. And for whatever reason, this entire last week I've just felt very gloomy and rather apathetic about everything, even my dating life. In a way, I'd rather R wasn't coming over this weekend, and I don't even know why. Generally I really want to see him, and it's what I look forward to for my weekend. But this time, it's almost giving me the creeps and there's no reason for it. So then analytical (or delusional?) LL starts thinking, because she already feels so far away from God, "Is it God speaking to me? Is he saying, LL, if you don't leave R, I will leave you?" Or maybe this latest development with my daughter is just further proof that I'm supposed to be alone for the rest of my life (that feeling I've had anyway). If I were alone--no man in my life--I would be more able to parent a grandchild than if I were dating or in a relationship.

It all seems sort of crazy. I think my brain is on overload. My therapist has been gone for 3 weeks--I see her again next Tuesday. There will be lots to talk about, as she knows nothing about my daughter's situation yet.

LL

I've read this entire thread and the best advice I've seen came from your boyfriend. I'm not sure if you weren't listening, or if I got a wrong meaning there, but I think I understood him right - and your next statement indicates I did.

IF you're not willing to step up to the plate and be a parent to your daughter, in whatever she needs at this point, then you need to shut up and let her make the decision she needs to make.

You've already stated that he's a good father, and that's what makes him a good father. He's willing to step up and do whatever it is he needs to do to be a good father. EVEN if it means giving up his freedom and financial security to do so. Anything less than that would not make him a good father.

I happen to be pro-life and I have to say it pi$$es me off to no end when I read that a pro-life person is so willing to stand up and say don't take that life, but d*mn that child to the state, foster parenting, or some other insignificant standard of life. If you aren't willing to go the extra mile and support your daughter in raising the child (you can use good boundaries but non-support isn't a good boundary) then you are missing the point. What the heck is a 16 year old doing living in another community?

Raising children who make good choices is about teaching them to make good choices and being willing to stand behind them when they make wrong ones. Not to pick up the pieces necessarily, but to be there while they pick up their own responsibilities.

I feel for your daughter in this situation, it seems she's all alone in making her choice. Nobody is willing to go the distance with her.

I have a feeling your bf is making his choice and it isn't because you have to raise this child, or because your daughter chooses an abortion, but rather because you aren't willing to stand on your own beliefs, and go the distance if you do have to give up something and support your daughter, be a grandmother and help raise a WANTED child.

Rejecting a child is a sin. Killing the child is just more of the same sin.

Lordslady,

You have an e-mail....(hope you haven't changed e-mail accounts since we corresponded when you first came to these boards!!!)

Regards,

BB

Well, I noticed that once again you ignored the main point I was communicating and went on about you, about what you want, about what you don't want, about what you think people should and shouldn't do, and so on and so on.

Given how relentlessly self-centric your approach to this whole mess has been, it would serve you well to assume any notions you have about what your daughter thinks the problems are between you are probably just plain wrong.

You really make yourself sound like you don't listen to her, just talk at her. And your often not listening to posters here, but rather just talking at them really drives that impression home.

You deliberately did a lot of damage with one single act to your daughter being remotely likely to see you as someone she can talk to instead of someone who either talks at her or throws various styles of tantrums at/near her.

I made some suggestions on what you could do to pick up your own mess as far as your relationship with her goes in regards to that one incident. As other posters have been saying is a favorite pattern of yours, you responded with just a load of excuses, some that seem really out there.



How on earth do you even make that fit with your religion, let alone not drive yourself nuts with that one? Darn near everyone on the planet is going to do things any one of us finds wrong/hateful, but most of us still manage to get along without throwing public tantrums and with thanking those who help us. No one's asking you to thank them for being an abortion clinic. But it really blows me away that you would find it unthinkable to thank some people who really gave it their all in protecting your daughter in the brief time she placed herself under their care.

What kind of message does that send your daughter, that you find their dedication to her protection a subject for rage rather than gratitude?



Ah, thank you for the clarification. You can still send them the letter though.

BTW, that was a great post, seekingjoy; well put.

LL,

I think you need to make a blanket statement to her...no room for interuptions, you tell her you need to say something....


LL: " this situation needn't be going this way....we both need to stop and hit re-set.....

I love you so very much, but I can no longer allow you to abuse and take advantage of me....

If you want to have a hope in ****** of me helping you out any further.....you will get your 16 year old butt back home where it belongs and we'll go from there...

(then using language she 'hears'.. you say')

*D's name*....we need to get our [censored] together on this..."



then you hang up...



then you say a prayer that she will examine the choices before her, and she will make one that helps, rather than harms her.....


I cannot believe how much control the child has right now...and how manipulated by her you are....there are other roads besides caving in and reacting from an emotional place where you need to have a plan, instead.....you need to explore these instead of allowing yourself to be blackmailed....you are setting up a pattern for her using and abusing you for the rest of your life...

stop it now.

put your foot down.

The nightmare has taken a new twist. My daughter called last night in tears in the wee hours needing to talk to me. Apparently some girl that her boyfriend slept with about 6 months ago found out she has HIV.

I tried to stay calm on the phone and tell her that he needed to be tested, and that a little reassurance for her was that it's harder to transmit from a woman to a man (ie., the girl may not have given it to him). She was using someone else's phone and had to let me go. I tried to call her back a few minutes later but the owner of the phone said she was outside and they'd have her call me when she returned. She never did.

Then it hit me...it may well be HIM who has HIV who is transmitting it to the women. I heard he has an extensive history with women and warned my daughter countless times when she first was hanging around with him last fall.

What if in addition to being pregnant, my baby girl has HIV?? No matter how much I've prayed for her, every nightmare I ever imagined either has come true or looks like it could come true.

I have no way of contacting her. I can't force him to be tested. I can't get her to come home so that she can be tested--not that it would matter as it could be too soon for it to show up in her. And he's treating her like dirt and telling her she's worthless because she has no job, and I begged her last night to let me come bring her home, but she doesn't want to come because she doesn't want to leave him.

I am somewhere between anger and numb and just sick. I wanted so much to love my daughter and protect her, and this is the end result of my parenting. If you ever want to know what it feels like to be the biggest dismal failure at life, read my posts.

LL

BB,

I didn't get email. Must have changed my address. If you want to resend, try "lordschild65@yahoo.com".

ll,

I have watched this thread play out but I have not responded...until now.

I wouldn't get all in a tizzy about this little piece of news...I say "little" because I feel that your daughter is a master of drama. She can reel you in with that quicker than anything.

I wouldn't worry...I would offer to take her to get tested if SHE wishes. Other than that you are going to have to refrain from stoking her drama flame. I liken it to threatening suicide if you won't do what she wants you to do.

HIPAA isn't going to allow for you to check anything in regards to her health...her boyfriend's health...or ANTHING medically related. She can throw it at you, but I suggest you give it right back to her.

So...what do you think you need to do...is what I would offer to her. Then whatever she says...back it with action. If she wants you to take her to get tested, do it. If she tells you not to worry, that she will take care of it, okey dokey.

She jerks your chain...she really does.

That's just my opinion...

committed

This wasn't jerking my chain. She was near hysterics. She was calling looking for me to allay her fears.

When I get a call with her in tears, her voice shaking, and her saying "Mom, I need to talk to you about something...", I know it's serious.

And if my 2nd theory is correct and HE gave the other girl HIV, and HE has been sleeping with my daughter without protection (which is obviously the case), then there is a high likelihood that she may have also been infected. And she's pregnant.

She didn't tell me not to worry. She knows I'm worried and I know she's worried. I was trying to help calm her down, but that was before I realized that the HIV probably came from her boyfriend to the other girl. HIV is uncommon in Iowa which is why that hadn't been my first fear for my daughter, until last night when it hit me that her boyfriend has lived all over the country for the last few years, in places like NY and Boston. His risks, given his lifestyle, are MUCH higher.

There are few things on my "nightmare" list for my children that are higher than HIV. Death is the only one I can think of.

LL

Is it possible that this HIV concern could be the catalyst for your daughter to go to a pro-life clinic? Many do free testing of ALL kinds, and I know that would be your first choice for counseling. Did you ever call one to get information for yourself (as the mother of a pregnant teen)? If not, you may want to do so, and have their info handy for the next time your daughter calls.

I hesitated to respond again, since you totally brushed past my last post. But, I came back to say this...

It's not difficult to see how a child who has been rejected by a selfish self centered mother can reject her own child through abortion. It amazes me that after all this - you are STILL more concerned about how this is going to affect YOU than how it affects your daughter? How did you manage to survive 9 months of pregnancy with this child? Or better yet.. How did SHE manage to survive it?

The girl is 16 years old - and you have no way of contacting her?

I hope she's at least listed as missing by the local police department?

LL,

pull up your old posts and read what I wrote to you when your daughter was 14. I am a pediatrician, I have worked with adolescents, and I predicted back then all the things that have happened now. Your daughter has dropped out of school, she is using drugs, she is pregnant, she may have AIDS.

I told you years ago that all this will happen, if you do not radically change your approach. You need to set boundaries and limits. No more wavering and excuses. You need to change yourself first, LL. You give your daughter the impression that everything she does is tolerated by you. Wrong! You have spoiled her. You still give her money, take her places, buy her things. STOP that. Your daughter behaves badly, take away priviledges. You need to teach her that her behavior has consequences. No more excuses.

I am trying to help her and you...just like years ago, when you ignored all advice. If you had started then, this progression of bad behaviors and dismal outcomes could have been prevented. Your daughter is out of control, and you need to regain that control or your daughter will end up dead (I am very serious about this).

I am truly sorry to see you like this. You did not answer my last post to you. I would appreciate an answer to this one.

All the best,

I took away her cell phone and quit giving her money when she quit school last fall. And when she decided to move out, I was quite clear about disagreeing with her actions and that I wasn't supporting her. And I haven't. Other than buying her a few groceries a week ago because she is pregnant and I was worried about her health, she's gotten zero from me. I told her if she was going to make adult decisions, she had to figure it out on her own.

There were no priviledges to take beyond the ones I took, other than her social life. And therein lies the problem, because that is her downfall and there was no way I could stop her from leaving when I was at work or when I left the house.

Most kids, when grounded, are afraid enough (or respect their parents enough) to abide by it, even though they may throw a fit and let you know how much they hate it. She just waited for me to turn my back, and she snuck out the door and was gone, and the more I tried to get her to obey, the more she defied me. It's an ODD trait--they thrive on defiance. And what was I going to do to her for disobeying? Ground her again??

Hindsight says she would have been better served by a foster family at 14 or 15 than what I provided. I botched that because I loved her and couldn't face doing that to her. I wanted her with me.

I truly don't know what to do now. I've written DHS an email. I can call the cops and have her brought back home. Then what? Have them bring her home again when she leaves? And again? If I have her brought home and she leaves again, she'll be very careful not to call me or give out any info that would lead me to her. Right now we have semi-open communication.

Granted, many parents 100% single parent their children with no support or relief. But I'm willing to go to bat and say the majority of them don't have the behavior issues my daughter does. My son has turned out to be a pretty good guy. He's never touched alcohol and is almost 20. He doesn't smoke. He doesn't party. His "vice" is video games. And he's a 2nd year college student with enough credits that he's classified as a junior. Had my daughter been the same disposition as him or most other kids in this world, we'd have been fine. And in fact, she got a disproportionate share of my attention because she was a very needy child--faked illnesses that made the daycares call to have me pick her up, etc, because she wanted to be with me. We were extremely close until she hit puberty and she pulled away. That, unfortunately, happened right before my marriage fell apart and it's been downhill ever since.

ll,

You know what...I think that I have to change my position on this. She isn't trying to jerk your chain...she is trying to get YOUR attention. She has been without it so long that she is totally lost. For years all your attention was on your WS and his drinking, then after the divorce you have been focused on your dating/social life. She got pushed to the side in her formidable years. It didn't take long for her to run amok.

Hindsight says she would have been better served by a foster family at 14 or 15 than what I provided. I botched that because I loved her and couldn't face doing that to her. I wanted her with me

Yes, I remember that alot of us encouraged you to love her enough to turn her over to the people that could help her.

I wouldn't think it would be too late. As long as she is under 18 you can start getting her into a group home. I see it all the time where I work right now and the kids change drastically.

Do something for HER today. Call the police...notify CPS...DO SOMETHING...don't just sit there on your laurels waiting for all this to get better. It won't...you have the voice of someone (iceprincess) telling you exactly how it has and WILL play out.

Take a day off work, contact authorities...make arrangements to have her picked up. Even if you have to set her up. Right now, she cannot think rationally for herself and YOU need to be the person to get this back on track.

She will scream...fight...claw...threaten...but just DO IT.

JMHO
committed

this is perhaps the one thing that should have stayed with her...an underage minor living who knows where can at least call someone in case of an emergency...





good.




yes.



yes.





right now you have a minor child out there somewhere, pregnant, defiant and perhaps HIV positive....with no cell phone and no way of reaching her.....

this is not semi-communication...

LL,

I hope you're reading and re-reading Liza's response to you... SHE KNOWS...

So many other's have been giving you awesomely wonderful (though hard) advice over the last years... me, included... and it just seems to me that no matter what any of us says, you are bound and determined to be your daughter's friend instead of her mother.

I've made some awful, terrible mistakes with my children... many of us have, especially when we think back in hindsight... but I'll tell you this: When my oldest daughter (now 24) began walking the road your daughter is (as a freshman in HS)... and she was literally walking around town during school hours to avoid going to school (and there were no cell phones for kids - and we didn't have one as parents, either)... here's what I did: Called the Truancy Officer at the school, called the police for help, and looked into every possible avenue to make sure she got educated. Truancy and/or dropping out was not an option. Eventually, as I told you before, I got her into Independent Study. I did 90% of the research myself, the calls myself, and the worrying myself. Her dad didn't agree with me at all. I had to do it all by myself. I "get" how hard it is...

Guess what? She not only graduated High School, but got herself a scholorship for the community college!

In fact, as I've told you before, two of my three children had huge, ugly, hairy problems... both graduated high school using untraditional means to do so... which I never would have known about had I not done the legwork to find out what was available.

I agree with what soulloss said, above...

The time for this waffling behavior is over. Your daughter needs you to be her mother right now. I'm here to tell you that regrets are possibly the most detrimental to your psyche when it involves your children. You will *never* be able to take back your mistakes... but you can begin to take steps to make it right from this point forward.

Look inside yourself, find that wounded 16 year old, and think about what you would have wanted if you were in your daughter's position. You will find the answers...

Post deleted by Cherished

Let me tell you how the Child Welfare system works here in Iowa. I've been on the phone all morning telling my story again and again (just as I did 2 years ago when I was looking for help but keeping her in the home).

The story is the same from the main DHS office, the child welfare office, and the child protective services office:

"We are very sorry, but money is very short here and we are helping fewer and fewer children. I get at least one call per day with a story like yours and there is really nothing we can do of they don't have a criminal record. No one cares if she's living away from home, nor if she's using drugs, if she's not been charged. Running away doesn't constitute a criminal background, nor do her truancy issues from years past. They don't care that she's ADHD/ODD. She's not suicidal or homicidal. Statutory rape doesn't apply because she's 16. There is nothing I can offer you in this situation. I'm really sorry, and really embarassed to have to tell you that."

One woman even told me the best thing I could do was just lift her up in prayer. They all did tell me that if something bad happened to her, I could be charged because I'm legally responsible for her until she's 18. They said they understand my frustration, but their hands are tied.

It's the same freakin' story I got 2 years ago!

LL

good.




yes.




yes.

And what good does that do? I have her home for a day or so, maybe. She will be livid with me. She'll leave again and be that much harder to find. And she'll still not end up with a criminal record, but if all avenues of communication with her are taken away from me, I'll have no idea if she's alive or dead until someone is lucky enough to track her down.

I guess my question: what good does having her brought home over and over again do if she just runs over and over again? What is that teaching her? How is it helping her?


LL

Hey don't have her brought home. Look at what you've taught her THAT way. Workin' real well, isn't it. Seriously, this is the most painful example of neglectful parenting I've ever seen.

I agree with Lucks/Laura. Take your chances on any criminal charges sticking to you and let her go. Say a prayer if you feel like it - just change the locks and be done with it. I wouldn't put up with this much abuse from my children.

My daughter has her problems, but when I call her on the phone and tell her quietly that I'm getting mad and she had better contact me, she does.

She's gotten shown the door before and she knows what I won't tolerate.

V.

Laura,



Okay, so you've pounded me into the ground. Tell me exactly step-by-step what you'd do in this situation. Don't just tell me to have her brought home. Tell me what you do once she IS home. How to keep her there. How to get through to her. How to make a difference. Concrete detailed ideas, not just abstract suggestions that I 'make her my first priority' or 'step up to the plate'.

What would you do? (Keep in mind, I work from 9am to around 7pm or so each evening--I'm a salaried dept. head and my hours aren't set in stone. Also keep in mind her father isn't involved in her parenting, and I have no extended family in the area. I'm all there is. Also keep in mind that while I do make decent money for someone with an AA degree, I have no savings or investments to fall back on or to pull from and my parents are dirt poor.)

LL

I saw my therapist for the first time in 3 weeks, as she's been out on vacation. I shared with her what was going on with my daughter. I also shared what was going on here, with the suggestions that there is more that I can do and that I should be ashamed of myself for not doing more all along.

She asked me why it is I keep setting myself up on here to get beat to death, and what it is I expect to gain by then coming here to read it. At this point, I'm not sure. Self-punishment, I guess, because I keep rereading the posts that are the harshest about my lack of parenting skills or perceived neglect of my daughter.

She has a lot of experience with defiant teens and troubled youth, as well as the state system. She told me that what I heard today is a story she's very familiar with.

She said there is nothing I can do besides enforce my own boundaries--that at 16 my daughter is at an age of being accountable for her own choices and that I need to make a list of what I'm in control of (mainly things relating to how I take care of myself) vs. what I'm not in control of, and that I need to slow down the anxiety over all the things I can't control. She also discouraged me from having my daughter forcibly brought back home, saying it would do nothing but drive her further away.

So I wait..for what, I don't know.

I know that in the middle of this whole crisis, in trying to gain control over something in my life, I've all but busted up my relationship with R. She helped me sort through this today, and why it is for the past two days all I've been able to say is, "So, do you want to break up? You can't handle my daughter." At which point he becomes very silent and then says, "LL, don't even go there. This conversation needs to end now." And we hang up.

He admits that the thing that keeps him from being able to fully commit right now is not knowing if he can accept being around her for extended periods of time and watching how she treats me. My therapist says this makes sense, and that it's not fair of me to expect him to have answers right now. But because I'm so afraid that he'll decide he can't take her, and will dump me, and I feel like my life is so out of control, that I'm trying to find some sort of control by beating him to the punch and pushing to end a relationship that I don't even want to end, just to stop the surprises. It's crazy, but it makes sense. But I've been pretty cold and pushy over the last 24 hours. I've done some damage again.

LL

I've kept away from this thread because I know I don't have any experience with these kinds of situations. However, I have been puzzled and bothered by all the let's-beat-up-on-lordslady stuff going on, which seem to be based on "shoulda-woulda-coulda" thinking. As if anyone really knows what would have happened if lordslady had handled anything differently!

But I'm stepping in now, lordslady, to say that so far I'm pretty impressed with your therapist. And I certainly agree that your primary role and responsibility has to be in enforcing your own boundaries. Your daughter has to know where she stands with you. Beyond that - recriminations and wishful thinking notwithstanding - she is responsible for her own decisions and actions.

Boundaries are about what you will or will not do.

The only advice I have to offer, that I've been repeating over and over on this thread is:

1. Quit throwing tantrums
2. Do whatever you can (that means what you CAN, not what you feel like) to rebuild the damage after you do throw a tantrum

You've been pretty clear you're not interested in either piece of advice, both by your excuses and objections, and by your continued actions doing the opposite, such as repeatedly shoving a topic at your boyfriend when he's been quite clear he is not willing to discuss it just now.

Ah well, you've been on this circle so many times before -- you reject the advice you're given, then when people point thatt out, you demand they give you advice you like better. If the whole point is to hear people agree with you, perhaps an advice forum isn't what you're looking for.

LL, I agree with GDP... listen to your therapist. You're really not a bad person, bad partner, or bad parent, but the way you present yourself invites negative feedback from a site that's generally positive.

I still wish you'd have been willing to try Al-Anon. I know you're divorced from the alcoholic, but as a long time Al-Anon member who resisted it, too, I know it could have helped you... still could (ask your therapist).

LL,
I don't see people intentionally trying to hurt you or trying to "beat up" on you.
What I see is seven pages of people trying to help you, as we always have tried to help you and we see your life in constant chaos because you keep making decisions that keep it that way.
The people on this board REALLY do have some good advice and want to help! They aren't on here to bash anyone!
I gotta tell ya from experience, that it DOES get frustrating to read your posts when it is crisis over and over again. Why does it seem to surround you? Do you think you have ANY ownership in it?
You get REALLY GOOD free help here! But when people give what they think is good advice and it falls on deaf ears with NO validation of it at all, just on to the next crisis, its get frustrating as the giver of the advice! (which is why I no longer post on your threads-I'm just here to try to explain to you that there is no hate toward you-it's frustration).
To sum: We ARE here to help, WE HAVE TRIED TO HELP!!! I tried so much, believe me! I have no bad feelings for you AT ALL!! In fact, I continue to have hope for you! I just feel sad for you because you can't see what you are doing to yourself and those around you; and to those of us that have good intentions on sharing our advice when you come here to ask for it.
I wish you all of the Good Lord's blessing He will bestow on you, if only you will let Him!

Okay, maybe more later, but just a couple comments.

I know I've made some parenting mistakes by not doing better at enforcing boundaries. I'm working with my therapist on that now--it's not an easy fix.

However, when it comes down to it, I fail to see how anything I could have done (short of locking my daughter up) could have ultimately prevented either the pregnancy OR the potential HIV issue. I can't be around her 24/7, and I've pleaded with her and tried my very best over the last year to get her on birth control and to get her to use protection. She made a decision not to.

What I need to do a better job of is being less "reactive" in these crises which is easier said than done when the last two huge issues have hit within 2 weeks of each other. I'm going to somehow have to get to the point where I am able to separate what I can control from what I can't, and leave the "can't" stuff in God's and my daugher's and my boyfriend's hands. I'm a control freak. That's difficult.

Letstry, I did look up some Al-Anon meeting times today, but there's nothing coming up that will work with my schedule (I need an 8pm meeting) until early in the week.

I also tried to research my area for support groups for parents of troubled teens (i.e., tough love groups). I apparently don't know how to find them, because I've found nothing in the Des Moines area so far.

As for the comments that I need to apologize to the clinic, first, I can't do it in a sincere fashion, and second, it seems to be a non-issue with my daughter and hasn't come up since that day. I think she would be more embarassed at this point if I brought it up again by taking something to them to apologize. I'm best to just stay away.

She is talking to me daily, though sometimes they are very brief calls if I say something she doesn't want to hear, like encouraging her to come home or pushing her about the HIV issue.

I'm going with the therapist's advice to not bring her home but to allow her to make her choices, and working on deciding what I am and am not willing to do (i.e., run over to IC if she needs something). It helps that she's in the same city as my son, so he sees her every couple days when she comes and has him buy her a meal at the college cafeteria and I know in the event of an emergency, she can come to him or his girlfriend--they both have cell phones and can contact me if need be.

But right now I'm the most concerned about the HIV situation. I found out that she thought she was tested but the blood test didn't include an HIV test (sleuthing done by my sister with the clinic), but that the HIV test would have to be requested separately and is an oral swab. So I'm currently paying my son to see if he or his girlfriend can get both my DD and her boyfriend in for the HIV test, and told my son to name his price. If he can get it done, it's worth it to me to pay him for his help. He's working on it.

I know her life is a mess, but I'm praying that as as she becomes more emotionally mature, she will be able to pull herself together. I've had many women I know tell stories of people they know personally who as teens were a complete mess, but who as adults live relatively normal lives. My daughter is very intelligent and very creative. She has the potential, if it could just be properly focused. But I'm all wrought up over this HIV thing, because it could mean the difference of her having a chance at a future vs. not having a future to look forward to. It's a huge issue, bigger even than the pregnancy. I feel like if the HIV issue would turn out to be a non-issue, I am better equipped to deal with the other issues at hand. It's just been a lot all at once and it's overload, especially with my therapist gone through the whole deal and no professional to confer with until yesterday afternoon.

LL

Lordslady - wow alot is still going on huh??? I just don't think that everyone is as against you as you think... I just think that many of us cannot fathom - how or why your 16 year old daughter is not living with you and is living with some guy that she got pregnant by and now has an HIV scare - I mean it just seems unbelievable to me.. but I also know that you cannot understand what you are going through unless you are going through it also... Hopefully your daughter will learn a valuable lesson from this situation - and that it will scare her enough to turn herself around... I mean 16 with a child is crazy - 16 with a child with HIV and all of that is just worse... Hopefully everything will be alright... and as for calling the cops - well if it were my daughter I would report her as a runaway - but the first thing I would do was to put a cellphone in her possesion so you can stay in contact with her... if only for your sanity... I truly cannot fathom what you are feeling as a mother... but why would you pay your son to talk your daughter into getting a test??? I don't understand that - maybe I missed something... I truly wish you the best and I believe you should continue with your therapy and I just would worry about your daughter - and her situation... top priority....

LL:
I've posted a couple of times and hopefully you'll get something out of this one.

I too have had many issues with my 2 sons for the last 12 years as a single mother. I have learned that it is imperative for us to allow our children to suffer the consequences for the choices they make. Otherwise they learn nothing. They let us suffer the consequences for them and they go on to make more and sometimes worse mistakes.

I have also learned not to beat myself up over mistakes I have made as they apply to them. I can only do my best with what I have today and that's all I can do. That's all any of us as parents can do.

Your daughter made the choice to have unprotected sex. You say she's smart, then I'm sure she was smart enough to understand the risks she was taking. If she wasn't then, then surely she is now. By getting pregnant and possibly having HIV, she is reaping some of what she has sown. As her mother, you simply have to let her suffer for her mistakes. Otherwise, she won't learn from them and that is ultimately what you want. For her to make better choices.

As a mother, letting my sons suffer for the bad choices they make is the hardest thing I've done as a parent. I've let my sons sit in jail. How many times have I told them "You get one get out of jail free card. After that, if you break the law I'll visit you in jail but I won't pay to get you out." I've watched them drive off knowing they were going to probably smoke weed with their friends. I've worried incessantly about my older son getting HIV because he is gay and chooses to live a gay lifestyle. I visit my younger son in drug rehab. I saw my older one get down to 120 lbs. because he was doing coke. I've risked bodily harm to myself because my younger one came home messed up on bars and I proceeded to scream at every kid outside to get the he!#$ off my property. (A couple of them got belligerent with me.) I've taken anti-depressants, suffered from ulcers and other stress-related disorders, lost boyfriends because they couldn't handle the kind of stuff I handle everyday.

I understand why you feel overwhelmed. I understand you wanting answers to questions about what can I do different. I've asked those questions myself. I've had friends of younger children look at me like I have the worse kids on earth when I've talked about the issues I go through with my sons. Now they know, their children are teenagers.

I'm sorry for your pain. I know how intense it is. I learned a long time ago to accept things I can't change and to change the things I can. That wisdom is hard to come by sometimes. You can't change the fact that your daughter made the choice to have unprotected sex and is now pregnant.

If she wants to act like an adult and live independently from you, then she needs to learn to make adult decisions. Making her own mistakes will be her best teacher.

Good luck to you!

okay, so you have established your daughter is an area you can not control, did you write that down on the list?

And did you also write down you have no control over whether or not she has HIV or not?

you have no control over the fact she is pregnant.

And you know concerning your man friend, I don't think it's that he can't handle your daughter, I do think it's that he can not stand to see her treat you (someone he apparently cares about) like dirt.

Think about this, how do you think you would feel watching his children treat him the way your daughter treats you? Would you want to be around watching it?

If my kids treated me the way your daughter treats you, my husband would be letting them know "they DO NOT talk to their mother that way." He would be protecting me from that abuse.

And in that this man is NOT your husband, his hands are tied and he doesn't have any authority to SAY ANYTHING to YOUR daughter. He has no authority as your husband, nor as your daughters step-father to say anything. If he loves you as much as you think he does, it probably tears him up inside watching it all.

Think about it, how would you respond if HE raised his voice to your daughter?

Wasn't going to post here again, given how beat to death I feel. But what the heck. The latest.

My daughter wanted to come home for a few days last Sunday, so I ran over and picked her up. Decent drive home, and then I went to bed. Next morning I woke to find she'd taken all my meds--about 40+ pills in total. She apparently vomited them back up, but I called 911 anyway and she was hauled to the adolescent psych unit by ambulance.

Three days later she was released to her father, so he could take her to get her abortion (which she didn't end up getting yet, because she claims she had the appointment time wrong). I think she's very scared about all that, but it's a subject she chooses not to discuss. So she is now still pregnant, and has exposed an unborn child to high levels of prescription drugs as well as who knows what beyond that.

This latest incident threw me over the edge and I pushed the hospital to get the state involved, even if it meant her going to a group home and me giving up custody. I told them--I can't keep her safe. She doesn't respect me. She needs help! They think she may have borderline personality disorder, but until she wants help, they said they can't help her.

And because her dad and fiancee were LIVID to find out that I was suggesting letting the state take her in, I got the riot act from them. The day she was released, the mediator/therapist, my ex and I had to have this 2 hour conference to decide what we wanted to do.

My hands are tied--therapist said so (just the latest in a long line). She wants to go back to IC, her father agrees that it's the thing to let her do, and the likelihood of state involvement now that her psychiatrist decided she's not suicidal but just wanted attention is nil. The mediator told me that unfortunately the only things I can do now are to call IC and try to get her set up with outpatient therapy, and then leave it up to her whether she'll go or not and CALL AN ATTORNEY IMMEDIATELY. He says I need to find out my rights and find out how I can protect myself in case she chooses to do something really stupid over there, since I'm still legally responsible for her.

It all s*cks so badly! I'm angry at the state, angry at my ex, and angry at my daughter for just walking on me over and over. She had the nerve to call me yesterday asking for money to help support her over there, if she decides to go back to school part time. I told her that people can go to school and have part-time jobs at the same time, and that if she was choosing to live on her own she needed to do this. She informed me that her dad said I didn't need the new car I just bought, that I could have fixed my old one and kept driving it, that I could take some of my retirement money and send to her, and that I don't need that gym membership either. I told her I didn't choose to continue the conversation and hung up. Haven't spoken since.

And then the other part that you'll all beat me to death on. My relationship with R is right back where it was before the holidays. It's fallen apart. He now doesn't know how things will work, doesn't want to end thing, but is extremely frustrated and sees little hope of making it over our hurdles.

Hurdle #1: distance

Hurdle #2: my taking away the sex--says he can't go long term (like 2 years) without and continue to see me--that it's how men express love to woman and he's frustrated

Hurdle #3 (the biggest): my daughter--his point is that in the almost 8 months since he's known me, she's become exponentially worse, she treats me like crap, I let her, and that he really doesn't feel that he can find it in himself to interract with her. However, he realizes she's always going to be my daughter--that the issues will never go away. We can't even let his kids meet her--I wouldn't be remotely comfortable with that happening. In fact, I don't like anyone to meet her anymore because of what crude or rude comment may pop out of her mouth toward them or me.

I hate that I feel like I have to hide my own daughter. It brings back a lot of memories of being married to an alcoholic and not wanting to introduce him to people or have people come over for fear he'd be drunk and obnoxious. My daughter isn't drung--she's just obnoxious.

I've had a friend here at work today tell me that I'm going to just have to say "no" to my daughter--no to money, no to coming home, no to pretty much everything. What if I do that and she makes another attempt on her life and succeeds? I'll never forgive myself.

But my hands are tied--and I'm letting her destroy my life and beat me down to the point that I feel I'm totally worthless. And now my boyfriend can't commit to me.

Neither pastor from my church has called in the 6 weeks I've been absent, and it's not like they don't know I'm gone. We only have 40-50 people who attend. They used to call or send me the bulletin if I missed a week. Neither of their wives have called. No one really seems to care if everything is okay or if I'm alive or dead. The one woman I've had lunch with a couple times did email me 2 days ago. I'll email her back.

But she and a few people here at work are my only close friends. I can't see my therapist for 2 more weeks--she's booked solid--so she doesn't even know about the sort-of suicide attempt that my daughter did.

I got up this morning and found myself in the shower wondering if God even exists, or if my son is right. It seems like each time something starts to calm down (my daughter was calmer in the summer, my relationship had calmed down in January when R told me he really thought I was the one for him and he even sort of talked marriage), and I start to get comfortable...it all blows freakin' sky high.

I am so angry that 16-yr-olds completely fall through the cracks in this state. It's been confirmed now in the last couple weeks by 3 DHS workers, a therapist/mediator at the hospital, and my therapist...and that my hands are tied. I can't control her. I can't make her do anything. No one suggests having the cops bring her back if she goes. All anyone says is that hopefully she will manage to stay alive until she hits 20 or so and maybe by then she'll mature a little.

I am having a very difficult time believing that God is working this for my good. Everyone has problems. I just want to know why the last 23 years have been one thing after another. Why couldn't I have a loving husband? Why couldn't I have 2 "normal" kids instead of one with huge emotional/mental issues? Why was I given her to parent, when I can't parent her?

I am angry at her for treating me like such sh*t, for walking all over me, for demanding that I support something I don't agree with. I'm angry at my ex for not supporting me on the state-custody idea to try and help her (had he supported me, we might have had a tiny shot at pursuing it, though doubtful). I'm angry at the state for it's total lack of support for situations like this.

And yet I feel this tremendous guilt at pushing away my baby girl to protect myself from further harm. She was such a sweet little thing. How can anyone call themselves a mother and essentially turn their back on their child, no matter how bad they are?

I think if I dropped off the earth, no one would really notice...some people might actually feel relief.

LL

LL,

I don't really know what to say except that I am sorry that your life is in such chaos. . . I'm sorry for your troubled daughter. I would notice if you dropped off the face of the earth. I would care and I don't know you from Eve.

I think that you are a kind woman. I think that you, like everyone, deserves to be with someone that loves and cherishes them. I don't know if your current BF is the one or not. I think that you should stop trying so hard and just be still for a while. Stop obsessing over your BF . . . just enjoy him when you can. Stop obsessing over your daughter, just be there for her and do for her what she will let you. I don't thinkg that tough-love will be that effective with a pregnant and suicidal teen. Get her home if you can. If not, go find her. She really needs a Mom right now . . . she doesn't have to like you right now . . . being a parent sometimes is a thankless and horrible job.

Life will get better for you LL. Really.

CN,

It is a very difficult situation. I spoke with a Family Law attorney today--will be setting up an appointment with him next week to pursue some issues with child support.

I found out from him the same thing that all others have told me. The state will not step in and help given that she's 16 1/2 and doesn't have a criminal record. I as her custodial parent have the right to determine where she lives, be that at home, somewhere else, or to be in a private locked facility. The problem with that third option is that I'm very financially strapped and have no family resources (as in, they're poor as dirt), so as he said, "yes, your hands are tied".

He did tell me that I can only be held resposible for the first $2,000 should she hurt someone else (I don't see her doing that) and that it is highly doubtful that charges of negligence would ever be brought against me given the things I've tried already that were unsuccessful and given her history.

However, I am still responsible for providing her a place to live, so if I choose (or don't choose, but am forced) to let her live in IC, I still need to support her. This brought up the issue of my ex and his discontinuing child support in mid-January (actually after 12/31, because the only check I've gotten since then bounced). The attorney says he's still obligated to pay support, and was shocked that the divorce attorney I had didn't force his wages to be garnished (I had a well-known attorney). He, I'm sure, can see some $$ to be had from me, but I don't have any choice really--I need his help. So I'm seeing him next week and we're going to perhaps be slapping the ex's hands good and proper for deciding he's done paying support, if he's going to force me to allow her to live over in IC by refusing to go along with me on getting her help.

As for the relationship with R, I don't know where that stands. On one hand, even my therapist says it's to be expected that he may not be able to accept my daughter; on the other hand it's breaking my heart to be with someone who doesn't know how to deal with my daughter and is uncomfortable at the thought of interacting with her.

And no matter how many people I know tell me I've done all I can and that I'm not a bad person, if I shut my daughter out of my life (or at least refused to let her be in my house for fear she'll walk all over me while she's there and belittle me as always), that I am just selfish and awful.

I really could use a therapy appointment.

LL

Post deleted by Cherished

Wondering how yer doin', LL...

Praying for ya.

Bump



I too am still praying for you. Email me if you wish

Dawn

Lordslady - Hope everything is going ok??? You have been away for quite a few weeks now..... Just hope everything turned out ok with your daughter...