WAT, you took the words right off my keyboard! Anyone who thinks that the Catholic Church didn't need any outside influence dealing with the pedophile priests truly has his head in the sand. I live in New England, where some of the worst offenses occurred. Cardinal Law swept each and every one of them under the rug. It was only after the "outside influences" from the (secular) government prosecutors put some of these animals away that the Catholic Church finally shipped the good Cardinal off into exile. God did not accomplish this. Government prosecutors did (one of the few things the government has accomplished lately! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MM, if you think the church's handling of the pedophile priests - namely shuffling them off to new congregations and fresh victims - was proper, than you have a very warped sense of what is right. Just the thought of what the church did (or didn't do in this case), and the thought that you actually condone this (in)action, makes me sick.


I, too, assumed that ensures4evr is a she. BTW, this is not the first time FH has referred to female posters as "he." FH did that to me for the first year and a half I posted here. Not sure why FH always has this assumption, must be some Christian thing.

I missed that celt, I was thinking endure was a man.

In that case she should not be talk to Luke without her husband or it would a be better job for her husband alone.

endures4evr:

Well, you told the pastor and he blew you off. O.K. Step one is finished.

Step 2. Tell Luke's wife . . .

I'll leave the tilting at windmills to others.

Romans 13:1-2 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

I agree with Comfortably Numb. If you know Luke's wife well enough to talk with her, I would go ahead and tell her the facts about what you know. At least that would end the pastor's affair with Luke. Now you may have to count a cost of a friendship between yourself and Luke's wife. Sometimes the bearer of bad news gets caught in the crossfire due to the embarassment of the situation, but as I told one of my friends I would rather loose a friendship to save someone's marriage.

I understand that Ark. But I cant go off of "what-ifs." This poster brought up a series of facts or information and asked what to do about it. I said she should talk to the pastor first...but should also talk to the elders/deacons in order to have them assail whether or not there is more to this than just this pastor's wife is cheating. They should look into whether these other allegations are true or not. They should look into the gossip and other issues that are now affectign the church because of this.


Well...no they are not...but that is the subject of another thread for another day.


Because the Bible says what to do. If they are a Christian church, then they are to follow the Bible. Period!! The specifics on how they do it may be a little different from one church to the next. Like in one church I knew, you always took these tyoes of things to the deacons. In another church, you went to the associate pastors. But the fact of what to do and the fact that this must be brought before the church is a Christian tenet outlined in the passages of Matthew that were posted early on in this thread. And if a church isnt into following the Bible...they arent Christian.


Which is why I said that she MUST take this issue to the elders/deacons. One of the jobs of an elder is to handle things like this with discretion. to go out and assail what is going on and help the church deal with it,, before falsehoods or gossip or derision takes over. If there is nothing to it, then the elders can close the book on it and make sure that things are done so that this issue stops. if there is anythign to it...then they can handle that appropriately also. This is their job as elders.


Didnt say they were...or that as a husband, he isnt just liek the rest of us!! But as a pastor, he also has a responsibility to a flock that he leads. Which makes him and his wife held to a higer standard. If there are issues, then he must (or the elders must ask him to) step aside and deal with his family issues.


Which is why I said that she must go to the elders!!!!


Which is why I told her to take it to the elders!!!!


I dont need to know the specific structure of that church to know the process outlined by the Bible. She can go into the church and find out who it is that handles such an issue. But the basic format on how to handle this is the same throughout ALL Christian churches. Why do I say that? Because the Bible tells the churches what they should do. If they do it differently than the Bible says? Then they arent a Christian church.


And you may be correct that they are leaps. But, in this church...that is the gossip that is going on. True or not, it is the word on the street and MUST be dealt with. Which, again, was why I told her to go to the elders!!


We dont! But the elders will find out, if told about this. They will find out the truth of the matter and deal appropriately with it.


You know me. I am a huge MB fan!! Nothing I wrote or posted diverted one bit from MB principles! I told her to approach the pastor with this. But I also said that she had an obligation to take the issues outlined to the elders and let them get the truth on this and deal with the issues at hand and with the gossip in the church. The question by the poster wasnt JUST how to deal wit hthe pastor and his problem. It was that her church is having these problems because of it and she wanted to knwo what to do. Two different issues here. I gave her the MB principels for the pastor. And I told her to see the elders/deacons on the other issues.

Again, how is that not inline with what we are trying to do here?

In His arms.

Delighting in "Digging" Christians in general and me in particular?

See my above post which you seem to have overlooked.

mortarman and foreverhers..

my whole point is that I don't think you can go on and on about what the 'church' should do..until you know exactly what church you are dealing with...

both of you deny the Christianity of the Mormon faith...and I agree that issue is neither here nor there....

MY WHOLE point is that three pages of telling the poster what to do..with no real ideal of what the poster is really talking about...

add the irony that the only ones "allowed" to give advice are those that are Christian....

Had the poster came back and said they were mormon I bet a lot of back peddling would have occured...and ironically heathens would be welcomed back...:)

Again NOW that the original poster has come back and identified more specifics...those of you that count yourselves qualified to advise...have at it...

but till more informationa was offered...it was in my opinion to grey an area for us to be definitive...which is why I said...not sarcastically that another topic that address what different churches do would be enlightening..

ARK

No, He did take care of His church. The exposure was His doing.


The Catholic Church didnt deal with it. The CC is only a smal part of the Christian church. Like I said, the Lord used many things to get the CC to take on this problem. Believe me, I have many problems with the CC that go beyond even this stuff...as some of their teachings are in direct contridiction with Scripture. And as FH so elloquently stated above...a Christian first and foremost believes in the Word of God.


So who should I trust? Government? My government? The same government that ruled for most of its existence that is was okay to enslave blacks? The same government that didnt allow rights for women? Who should I trust?

You see...I dont trust man. I dont trust the Pope. I dont trust my pastor. I dont trust my own father. All men and women can and will fail us! As FH stated above, we all share the fallen state.

I trust God! And God takes care of His church. He may use different things to get thru to it. Including having priests arrested for this stuff. But that does not mean the secular society has any say or any call on how the Chritian church is run. God does!


Unfortunately, I do have to agree with you on this one. But also have to agree with FH that it has been you that turned it this way. We were assisting a fellow Christian on how to deal with church issues. Anyone was welcome to help this person, believer or nonbeliever. But what FH and I were trying to impart to Endures was that when it comes to the church and what she should do about that...she need not heed any advice that is contrary to what Scripture provides.

And somehow you have taken that and made this discussion a spectecle. And I sit back here now and wonder...why?

In His arms.

Celt...you are ABSOLUTELY correct! Thank you for pointing that out. If endures is indeed married, she should go to her husband and tell him and counsel him on the fact that he needs to approach the elders.

Thanks for that correction Celt!!

In His arms.

Again, you have no idea what God did in this!


GBH, you or anyone else here is warped if you think I said this or believe this. Pretty sick thing to say about me!


Again, just the thought that you cannot read the printed word and understand what it says is sickening to me, GBH. I never said these things...so your attack on me over somethign I never said or meant...is sickening!


As usaul, an ad hominem attack from GBH. One of the most intolerant people on these threads.

In His arms.

Yes, it's possible. I didn't know for 6 years that my wife was having an affair. Besides, so far, all you've offered is gossip and speculation, so it would be undestandable if the Pastor (or any husband) might react with disbelief, especially if his spouse is a believer and KNOWS God's prohibition against adultery.




No. That is the job of the elected leaders (Deacons, Elders, whatever your church calls those entrusted with the lay ministry of the church). IF they abdicate their responsibility to investigate the rumors and gossip to determine truth or falsehood, then it might be appropriate for someone to approach the previous church leaders for information.

But the "fact finding" needs to begin with the Pastor and his wife, and needs to be discreet and confidential to protect everyone. GOSSIPING must be stopped and NOT entertained by any member of the church. It is a destructive and sinful as any other sin, including adultery.




And no one should. That is the "job" of Kathy's husband, and/or the Elders of the church, as prescrived in Matthew, to be done in a loving manner and for the purposes of determining the truth and for seeking repentance where it is needed. IF, and only if, the allegations are KNOWN to be true AND if the Pastor and the Elders REFUSE to "confront the sin, in love," then it would be appropriate for a fellow believer to approach them on the basis of being "obedient to God."

Remember, "church discipline" is for members of the church and regular attenders who profess belief in Jesus Christ in order to help restore those who have become ensnared in sin and to protect the body from "tolerance of willful sinning."

Don't forget that people engaging in adultery often erect a bubble of fantasy that can even include things like "God must have meant this to happen or he wouldn't have let us meet." Sin IS powerful, blinding, and deceitful to all, especially to those caught up in its snare.

God bless.

P.S. I am very apologetic to you if I got your gender wrong when I referred to you as "he" in a previous post.

I have an idea.
How about endures4evr post her original question
on a Christian forum and receive only Christian replies?
(If that is what she is seeking.)

A good one is Family Life Forum:
http://www.familylife.com/community/forums/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Thank you AskMe. As always, Scripture says it all!

In His arms.

Granted, ark. But Endures4ever said the Church of Christ in the opening post.

endurs4ever - the first thing I feel compelled to do is to warn you that the ADVICE you should be seeking and/or listening to is CHRISTIAN advice from believers. You may or may not know who people are who are advising you so be very careful in what appeals to your "human nature." You HAVE already received advice on this thread from unbelievers, and need to be very cautious and discerning in what is applicable from a Christian perspect and what appeals from a secular standpoint


It's a good thing that you are saving new posters from even hearing out the advice of anyone not a Christian....

which does not mean that I don't agree that how to handle this in a certain church doesn't warrant advice from people from that church who know...
BUT to post a warning like this
as if the poster can't see that someone not of that church doesn't really apply....and make decisions themselves..and be KIND and POLITE about it...


that's your first compelling instinct...toll the bells of warning... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

save new posters from non-believers...

I feel nauseous...

ARK

Of course I can! Since we dont know what we are dealing with, then there is a process in finding out what we are dealing with. As I said, it is outlined in the Bible.


I have told the poster that she doesnt need to know what she is talking about. She needs to go to the proper authorities (thru her husband) and let them shift through this.


Your posts are exactly why FH and I have said this. When it comes to marriagebuildign principles, we all knwo them and are proponents of them here. But you have no clue on what a Christian should do in regards to their faith or in regards to church matters. So why should a Christian take advice fro msomeone that doesnt knwo what they are talking about? If my car is broken down, I am not going to ask my surgeon on how to fix it. He may be a smart guy...but he hasnt a clue about cars!


If she had been a mormon, then I would have nothign to say on what to do in her church. Why? Because the Bible is not relevent here...they are not Christians. I would have recommended that a mormon come on here and advise her on what to do. I would have butt out of what she should do in that church, as I have no clue!! But I think I did say that in an earlier post that seems to have been missed! That if a muslim came on here, I wouldnt begin to advise on handle church issues!! I am not qualified!


I understand the grey area, Ark. But in the Christian church, we have a way of handling grey areas. I advised her of that. Since you are not a Christian, you were not qualified to advise on the church-related things, as you did not have knowledge of those things. Not a hit on you...jsut as it isnt a hit on me if I am told that I am not qualified to tell a mormon what to do in their church.

In His arms.

Ark...here....take some Pepto.

Are you SERIOUS?!?!

A Christian comes here seeking advice about a Christian church, a Christian Pastor, a Christian wife, a Christian man......AND you get your panties in a wad over my advice to seek Christian advice and obedience to God OVER secular advice that might conflict with God's will in the matter?

THEN you try to TWIST what I said in order to put words into my mouth to say that I say "EXCLUDE nonbelievers from even opining"?!! Garbage. Opine all day long. But a Christian MUST still be discering in what advice they receive so that they do not do something in opposition to God's will in the matter. WE, Christians, are subjects of God and He is sovereign, not us and certainly not unbelievers.

THAT is, and was, my "caution" to endures4evr, as it would be to anyone who identifies themselves as a Bride of Christ.

But you have no clue on what a Christian should do in regards to their faith or in regards to church matters. So why should a Christian take advice fro msomeone that doesnt knwo what they are talking about? If my car is broken down, I am not going to ask my surgeon on how to fix it. He may be a smart guy...but he hasnt a clue about cars!

I am shocked and amazed at your clairvoiancy...
and a little concerned that you may be touched by satan.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

since you KNOW I am not a Christian..

hmmmmmmmm

news to me...

better tell my Pastor whom I see every Sunday Am at 10 when not working..

better pull my kids from Cathechism.
better cancel those communion plans...

hmmm lets see....
better realize to prove to you I am a Christian that I study every Churches laws and bylaws so I become worthy of advising them all knowingly what they should do...without enought information to barely make an educated choice like so many others...in the beginning of this post...

I have no problem with what came once she came back and clarified things....

but the begining was heresay...gossip and leaps and leaps of logic...in MY opinion...

and cruel as if the poster needs WARNINGS as to who to READ or not READ...

and now x number of pages in to this..It is revealed because I don't advise this poster what to do I am not a Christian...

oy vey...

ARK

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You need a reality check in a huge way. Here's some info on district attorney and judicial selection in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the United States of America, where many of these offenses took place:

It is a fact that judges (at county level) are selected via gubernatorial appointment. Don't believe me? Here's the link: http://www.ajs.org/js/MA_methods.htm. No mention of God anywhere on that page.

In terms of prosecutors, it depends on the level. District attorneys, which oversee prosecutions of various crimes in superior courts, are elected by voters in their respective counties. Usually it's assistant DAs that do the actual trial work, and I think they're appointed by the DA.

If the trial is in Federal court, the big shot prosecutors are U.S. Attorneys. There are seclected via appointment by the President of the United States. Again, here's documentation of that fact:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ma/usattorney.html. U.S. judges are also appointed by the President of the United States.

If the subject opted for a jury trial, then it's the jury of his peers that decides guilt or innocence. Not God.
In all of my research, I found no reference to God appointing any of these people to these positions.

I implore you people to get real on matters of criminal justice. Neither God nor the church took care of the victims of pedophilia. The justice system did, at least in terms of prosecuting and sentencing the offenders.

Now HERE's a question for all you good Christians:

Many of the priests who abused these young boys are now dead. I am sure you think they deserve a place in heaven provided they repented and God forgave them for their sins. I beg to differ. I think these animals ought to burn/rot in ****** for what they did to these countless victims.

Sorry, not in a very forgiving mood when it comes to this kind of thing. These people are/were animals, and they make me sick.