I have been posting some over on the pregnancy/child forum but I thought I might get a bit more exposure over here.

Here's the link to my thread over at preg/child:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2907465

To briefly condense the story, my H had a PA 20 years ago and there was a child conceived. The OW was living with her BF at the time so it was a 50/50 chance. She married the BF and we moved to the other side of Dallas and went on with life.

I suspected but never knew for sure about the A. H didn't confess for 6 years and by then it was old news and we just moved on with life.

Fast forward to summer 2005 and the FOW contacted H through Classmates dot com. She wanted to appease her guilt for lying to her son about who his real father is all these years and wanted H to claim him and we said NO ~ leave things as they are. Well, she couldn't and told the OC in Dec. He emailed H on the day he left for Iraq so I got a call from H on New Years Day with this bombshell.

I went to see the Chaplin a couple of weeks ago and here's what he suggested (copied from my other thread)

Here's what I need help with. H sent him an email last week explaining that he couldn't give the situation his full attention right now since he's deployed but he asked if OC would attend a min. of 5 counseling sessions and then have the counselor send H a signed statement saying he went. He also asked OC to refrain from contacting our children. It was a fairly emotionless email but not a rejection, just asking for some tangible action on the OC's end and then H would decide how to proceed. We haven't heard anything back so I didn't know what his reaction had been. My son has been emailing with him and so he wrote and asked why he hadn't heard from him. Here are the emails: (you have to pardon the spelling and grammer, it drives me crazy how kids write to each other these days) (names changed to protect the innocent)

From my son:

OC's reply:

My son attended a counseling session with me today with the chaplin. He is going back with me next week, not because he needs to but because he wants to make sure I get all the details right....ha ha. He takes his "man of the house" role seriously when dad is gone, sometimes gets a little too big for his britches.

Here's what my son wrote back to OC tonight: I really didn't want him to let them know I was reduced to going to counseling because I don't want the FOW to think she's had an affect on me after all this time, even though this has!


I think I have a great kid here. I didn't know he was going to write this. (I'm a bad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> mom and "monitor" certain computer traffic)

I'm just at a loss how to go from here. The email from H was to get OC to take some action and responsibility if he wanted to have a possible relationship with any of our family. I found OC's email a bit manipulative toward my DS and it doesn't appear he wants to make an effort on his end. We'll see if and what he repies. I'm just trying to muddle through each day. Any suggestions or advice will be greatly appreciated.

It seems to me that a boy who's 17 years old is probably going to be completely cluelss as to why -he- is expected to jump through hoops to get to know his family. He, after all, didn't do a darned thing to deserve the sitch he's in. He is, quite certainly, a boy child.

Expecting him to show up at a counselor with absolutely no explanation is about like expecting a cat to bark.... with no training.

I think the only way you're going to get solid explanations over to him is by getting your son to help you understand the teenager perspective. Your son is clearly very smart about this stuff. He knew pretty much exactly what to say.

Oh, and one other thing. The caution you and your husband show is understandable from an adult point of view. From a child's point of view (and remember, this boy IS a child, even if he's walking around in a grownup body), it's just a rejection and it's alllllllll about him. Because that's the only thing it possibly can be about.

My advice? Get your husband e-mailing and writing to this boy JUST LIKE he would stay in contact with your son while he's in Iraq. It's time for your husband to think of him like his son -- one that he needs to get to know for the very first time. It's not a time for counseling. It's a time for a big hug, a whole lot of questions, and a little bit of trust.

Counseling? Sure. Once you figure out whether and where the problems are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just read your first thread (after initially responding below). I wanted to add a few things.

Firstly, since there seems to be a possibility that the child is not his (he's been told of 2 other fathers), I think the DNA test is necessary. Your H is being unreasonable in not wanting to take it. He's making DEMANDS of this boy, and he doesn't even know if the boy is his own. That to me would be the obvious step one. Since he's deployed, there is lots of time to do this, prior to him meeting the boy when he finishes his deployment. In the meantime, it would be nice if he could be emailing the boy, getting to know him. The boy could be told that DNA is being done, just so that everybody is on the same page.

I think this boy deserves kindness.

As for his mother, who knows! But, now that the cat is out of the bag, it is NO LONGER about her. It is about this boy, the truth, and relationships.

The boy has been lied to long enough. It's time for the truth. The Truth Shall Set You Free.

Although I can understand your H having to advise OC that he cannot give him full attention now (he's deployed), I think telling the kid to get 5 sessions, and then have a letter (on letterhead OMG) proving that he's had the session, was WAY over the top.

Where is the heart in that letter? The kid just wanted to get to know family. Very understandable.

And without even getting to know the boy, he's TELLING him what to do. If I were that boy, I'd be so confused and upset with the ORDERS.

It might have been accepted MUCH better had your H told the boy that he is anxious to get to know him, and intends to when he gets back home. Tell him that in the meantime, he "suggests" (note...NOT TELL) him to get some counselling, and let him know that he and his family are planning to do the same. Let him know that this is happening so that they all have the best chance of a successful melding of the families if they do so.

HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DEMANDED "PROOF" OF THE SESSIONS. THAT IS JUST PLAIN RIDICULOUS. IT SHOWS THAT HE DOESN'T TRUST HIM AT ALL...AND IT ALSO SHOWS THAT HE IS GIVING THE BOY "NO OTHER OPTION" BUT TO "DO IT MY WAY".

Now, I don't know if I necessarily agree that the boy needs counselling. He doesn't even know him yet. He might be already SO together on this, and be fine just giving it a try to see how it goes.

But, if your H believes that to be true, his best chance at success with the boy would not to give him orders (and then DEMAND PROOF that those orders were followed). I'm sorry, but it seems a lousy way to start a relationship. It's HIS OWN SON. Go at it from the heart.

I'm sorry, but it hurt me to read this. I'm surprised that the chaplain said to approach it this way. And I'm surprised that you H didn't recognize that this method was almost guaranteed to cause issues right from the get-go.

And, what's with the FIVE sessions. Not one, not eight, but FIVE, then "report back to me only after you have completed this task". This boy is not a soldier. If the boy went to four sessions, and felt he'd had enough, would your H accept that, or would he have to go back for one more, just to make H happy.

Janet - the chaplain's job is to protect the primary family here - and that's what he's doing - counseling is in order for a young man who's been told twice before that someone ELSE was his father. Why is he expecting THIS time to be any different?

He's intruding into a vulnerable family structure and ripping it apart - the daughter's reaction here is telling! Sure, he's the innocent one in this situation - but SO ARE THE PRIMARY CHILDREN. This isn't right and the father has the right to insist the boy back off until paternity can be confirmed.

The whole situation stinks, but Doxie isn't responsible for this boy's pain; it's his mother, first and foremost. The manipulation of her son's emotion to destroy a family is very very telling!

First,
as the BS non of this is your fault, so keep that point in mind as we continue.
This entire situation is soley at the feet of your H. (both past, which has now become the present)

In addition,
just so ya know:
this post comes to you from the view point of a betrayed child, with a cheating Dad & OC sister.

Next,
your H needs to get off his rear and Get this testing done.
For everyone's sake and sanity you all NEED to establish is this or is this not your children's sibling. (Your by line still reads "possible" OC).
Waiting longer will just make it even more traumatic (should it prove negative) for all the Innocent persons involved.

But My goodness,
The OC is being manipulative ......is that your assertion??

Good Grief.

I went and read your other thread.

Uhhhmmm,

OC Waited for almost 20 years.

Exactly how long was he expected to wait? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Another 20? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Its no surprise to Anyone that a person would want to KNOW (learn) where they come from, who their kin are and basically discover their roots and how they fit into the world.
Perfectly natural and totally normal!

In addition,
Why the shock and surprise from your H? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

He TOO has had 20 years to Get Ready for this Time.
Not anyone else's Fault if he CHOSE to do what he seems good at ........doing Nothing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Sadly, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
its the OC that is acting with the most Maturity of the bunch.

And then you curiously find it somehow offensive that this Person would actually bond with THEIR Brother or Sister??
Come on!


Again,
Your H has already had 20 YEARS to get ready for this!!
Yet he Continues with even MORE stalling and delaying tactics.

And then YOUR the one Writing the Letters For Him???

Good grief!
When's he planning on doing Anything himself?
Cause that's who Needs to be taking the Lead on this, not the BW and not the Kids ......The man!

For good or bad,
your H wanting to do it on his time table has well passed.
His PLAN, sadly was a Non-plan .........Hence (in your mind) your paying for it now.

Hope he learns a Life lesson:
Ignoring and pretending someone doesn't exist, doesn't make it so.
Also, The sooner a person deals with a self made mess, the easier the clean up.

But I give You your props for at least doing something.
Unfortunately, its your H that should be taking the lead on this .......and your efforts just seem to be further shielding him from his own responsibilities.
For sure:
Help / support him, but NOT do it all FOR Him.
[Which from what you've written, pretty much seems the pattern].

Lastly,
These grown (and practically grown) children are Already communicating and bonding.
Can't put that horse back in the barn now.

But continue to act in this manner, and it sure can be made a whole lot worse then it ever needs to be.

With all that said, is anyone claiming this is easy or comfortable to deal with??
Not at all.
I've lived it,
Its tough. Its hard. Its extremely UNcomfortable.
I assume that's why it was put on the Out of site / Out of mind shelf for the last 2 decades.

However,
the old plan of Ignore and Pretend,
being replaced by Stall and Delay is not making it easier or more comfortable for anyone (well, other then your H, of course).

Could you give him a clue and let him know that unlike his affair days, its NOT All About Him ANYMORE!

-------------



But that's the gist of the problem Janet,
this "dad" doesn't seem to WANT those things. (and by his actions -- NEVER has)
Instead,
He'd rather the "problem" just Go away again (or barring that, be put on the back burner for as long as humanly possible).
That's the saddest, as well as most frustrating part in all of this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yes, i agree, paternity MUST be established, and that's why after I read the prior thread, I added that right to the beginning.

I don't see a family structure being ripped apart though. The son in the family is chatting with the boy on friendly terms. The sister is taking her time (fine).

What I am envisioning is a young man, whose been confused (not his fault) being told this man is his father. And, there is every possibility that he is...but yes, that should be determined. And that being the case, why is the father refusing DNA?????

But, this young man makes an attempt to contact people who he has been led to believe are family.

Instead of being treated warmly (and cautiously...again, paternity is not yet known), he is given ORDERS, and told he has to bring back the proof before he will even be spoken to.

How does that help a confused kid?

I'm not saying that counselling is a bad idea...in all probably it is a good idea. It's the way it was ORDERED. It was the lack of trust ("bring back the proof that you went to "FIVE" sessions, and then we'll talk").

There is no Heart in the way it is being handled. The boy did nothing wrong.

His father did something wrong, and had an affair. His mother did something wrong...she had an affair...and then she lied to him...and then she didn't handle getting the truth to him in a very smart way. But all of that has NOTHING to do with the boy. He has a need to find out where he is from. If this man is his Dad he found out something very important didn't he. He found out that his Dad really doesn't want to deal with him. Dad won't take a DNA. Dad won't talk till I prove to him that I will do as he says. A little kindness would have gone a long way in helping this boy deal with the situation.

As for the family structure....it's a tough situation. Affairs always are, we all know that. But, again, the son seems to want to talk to his "maybe brother". The mother is upset (and I understand that). But, it is the consequence of the affair of many years ago. One can't just bury ones head in the sand, and I'm not saying she's doing that. I think the Mom here is trying very hard to get a grip on the situation. Seems to me that the problem is with the Dad only...the one who didn't keep "it" in his pants so many years ago.

He's trying hard to control the way this is all happening, but he can't.

Could he also be concerned (and frightened) about having to pay back child support? That would frighten anybody.

Affairs are awful. We all know that. An OC born from this union creates the most awful of emotional situations to deal with. But, it is not the child's fault. And, the father in this situation did not have to deal with the pregnancy, with the stress to his family (ow kept her secret). As a family, they didn't have to deal with all of that for all of those years. But, the truth had to come out. And, maybe luck will prevail for this family, and the child will not be his. Sad for the child though, as he continues to wonder about who his Dad is!

I'm not always right (but please don't tell my husband that). Opinions are just that, opinions. And, it's not fair of me to expect the Mom to accept this situation easily, it's a tough one, for sure. They all will need time. But I do stand by my opinion that ordering the kid to five counselling sessions, and then ordering him to bring back infallible proof (assuming right away that the boy is capable of deceipt) was a bad and harsh tactic. The boy is trying to find his Dad for goodness sake.

I completely agree with you but I can not force him to do it. Perhaps he will change his mind by the time he comes home.

The purpose of the counseling is a tangible act on his part that he can show H he is willing to do something on his end. He also needs to have a handle on what his expectations are. Maybe with more of an explanation he would be willing to seek out something. It wasn't given as an order but as a request. OC is interpreting it as an order. The reason for the letter from the counselor is to know that he did it. How else would we know?

I don't have a copy of the letter H sent but it was not emotionless...what you are reading above is a basic summary of what it said. You are only seeing the OC's reaction and my son's response to him.

We did not initiate the contact. We don't know this kid from Adam. H has never wanted contact and I'm sorry, but it is up to H to set the boundries of any relationship they might cultivate. Why should we trust him? He's already gone behind H back to try and get to know my DD by email without telling her who he was before he even emailed my H to begin with. (I hope that sentence makes sense) He was requested to offer proof, not ordered.


The 5 is not set in stone, just a number, more than one but less than 10. Again, the point being that he figure out what he's expecting and needing and to show he's making an effort. This is not one-sided.

He is in the respect that he is encouraging my son to keep contacting him when they've been asked not to.

He asked for no contact so yes it was a surprise. The timing sucks. The whole situation sucks. I'm trying to keep my family together and we are spread out across the world.

You guys are not saying anything that has not gone through my head and my heart. But my focus has to be on what is best for my kids and my family.

Doxielover: I totally understand your situation here. I think that all who have responded see what an awful position you've been placed in.

You are trying to keep your family together. Personally, I don't think this child is the threat. I think that your H's attitude towards the situation that he created, and now he cannot control, is the entire problem.

And, I know that you have thought all of the things we're telling you. I can see that, I really can. That's why I feel so badly for you, yet I'm so harsh on your H for putting you, and everybody else, into this situation. And he's not helping the current events, he's creating more problems.

You wondered how else you would know if the boy went to counselling, if he didn't bring "proof on a letterhead". Well, maybe you could just Ask Him? Until you have reason to believe that you need him to prove everything, it's best to just trust.

And, I don't think it is fair for your H to expect this boy to "show H he is willing to do something on his end". Why is that important to your husband. Your husband certainly didn't show he was willing to do anything for almost 20 years. And, the boy is not asking his father to offer up proof of action in order to establish communication.

As for him going behind your backs to talk to his half-siblings, probably not the best thing for him to do. But, I give him some latitude here, because of the way he was treated by his Dad. He's probably got the message good and clear that Dad wants nothing to do with him, and is purposely creating roadblocks to make sure that the road to communication is not easy. He may feel that he has already lost out on his chance to have a bond with his Dad (wouldn't you feel that way too). But, he still has some half-siblings....yes, he's been told to keep away from them. But his Dad "kept away from him" for 20 years, and no good came of that. He's asserting himself. He's not bad-mouthing anybody in doing so. And, your son seems receptive to this....that should be considered a blessing. I'm proud of your son.

And, I liked how your son explained how his sister is having some difficulties with trust because of a past experience. He is protecting her, and he is protecting his half-brother's feelings, by explaining the situation. To me, I see some real positive stuff here.

Mom, I'm not faulting you at all. You've been given a tough task here, being the middle-man in a situation where a middle-man should not be required.

You and the kids can get through this, and perhaps come out even better having gotten to know this boy (even if he turns out to not be your husband's, a lot can be learned about compassion, trust, love, by working through the situation).

As for you H, I don't know what to suggest. He's a military man. I'm guessing that he's higher up? Used to being in charge? This is not unfolding the way he wanted it to, and he's unequipped emotionally to handle this.

Mom, you are the heart of this family. This boy will not hurt you or your kids by getting to know you. And, if it turns out he is not family, behave in a way that will make you proud when you look back at this. (and, if your H would take the dna test, the rest of you would not have to be tiptoeing around behind his back trying to make the best of a situation that he created).

I have some siblings somewhere that are unaware of my existence. (I am the result of my mother's first, brief marriage. My natural father checked out and moved on. My mother's next H adopted me)

That's cool. I have enough family, thank you very much. Never even did a google search to try to find them.

It doesn't sound like your son is being traumatized by the contact with the OC. He is handling it very maturely, which is a credit to your parenting. I'm impressed.

But....and you had to know there was a but coming.

Your H needs to face up to the responsiblity that his act of adultery *may* be the cause of another life on this planet. He needs to get the DNA test and settle the matter once and for all. It's too bad all this time has gone by, but that is the situation and it must be dealt with - preferably head-on. The counseling, to me, seems like a delaying tactic, nothing more. Shame on your H, shame on the chaplain. They need to get some compassion for others. If the test is postitive, then counseling *is* a good idea - for everyone.

Neither your H nor the OW are winning any prizes in my book, although I can certainly appreciate your plight as the BS trying to keep her family from turmoil at what is already a stressful time with your H deployed.

But somehow, I don't think that this OC is a problem in your M. I think it may be someone else....

regarding dna...

I would take hair from your children's hairbrush, take it to a lab. Ask the boy to go to the lab and give a sample. (If your kids don't know, then they don't have to lie to their Dad). Get that question settled, as really nothing REAL can happen until this is known.

Sure, you H will be angry you went behind his back. But, he has to put it into perspective. He went behind your back, had an affair and had a child. Which of these two scenarios is more serious?

(I'm getting a gut feeling that you are very afraid of your husband. It is paralyzing you in what actions you can take. You're having to be in the fight, but without the boxing gloves)

It's a no-brainer though...paternity must be established, either way, for anything postiive to come of this.

I apologize if I sound too harsh. My heart goes out to you.

Penaltykill: you said...."But somehow, I don't think that this OC is a problem in your M. I think it may be someone else.... "

I agree 100%. He is just the clue that is bringing the problem into the light of day.

I'm glad for you that you were able to be raised by your mother and a loving adopted father. Sadly, it sounds like this boy missed out on the "Dad" experience. It's no wonder, now that he is no longer a young boy, he is trying to find his roots. I'm sure it is a very compelling emotion for him to take this brave step, in spite of his Dad's reticence to offer him even a crumb.

Nope sorry,
(as per the emails)
the OC WAS taking himself out of the picture (not communicating with son and going as far as removing himself from his Lists and such).
The effort to continue was made by YOUR son.
Lets not misplace the responsibility for that.

And again on this,
your H HAD his chance to Control how all this went down.
All it would have taken is a tiny bit of foresight, as oppossed to denial.
However,
[for "whatever" reasons] He chose NOT too, and now its too late to do it on "his" timetable.
Like it or not, that ship has sailed.

However,
Please address the reasons (for him -- excuses) why your H is for all intensive purposes doing as close to nothing as he possibly can.
Sure seems to be a life long Pattern here.

I mean:
Your doing something, your kids, the OC, ........what's up with the PERSON that set all this in motion 2 decades ago???????????

Other then perhaps helping to enable your H (in his hiding and continued denial),
I'm not blaming you at all.
{It may feel like that, but unfortunately your the Only One Here}.

So,
Send him here and I'll talk with him directly.
Sadly, I highly doubt it'll happen.

These WH's that make OC with their A's,
are about as rare as the Hope Diamond on this Board.

No, I am not afraid of my H. At the moment I choose to respect his wishes. In his mind he feels certain that he is the father so to him it's a waste of time and money to confirm it. I guess I'm the one wanting (needing) the proof.

Hey, if I was afraid of getting "beat up" or hearing harsh words I wouldn't be airing my dirty laundry.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My H is not the same man he was 20 years ago just as I am not the same W. We all make choices that we later regret or wish we could have "do-overs". He made a mistake and made what he thought was the best decision for his family at the time.

H has already told me that he will be writing to OC. He just doesn't have a lot of spare time at the moment. Yes, I did help him write part of the email. I happen to be better at that sort of thing. I help him with lots of his writing. He helps me with things I'm not so strong in. If he were here, he would be handling this more hands on. He is a take charge kind of guy but he also has a heart of gold. You just don't always see it through the hard crust.

We have our issues just like any other couple that's been married for any length of time. I've been sending him the Basic Concepts. He even told me to send them more frequently. (I was giving him a few days between each to read them.) Just like I have to come to terms with all this and the long buried emotions it brought back up so does he. I just tend to get impatient and just want it to be resolved. We are lucky if we get to speak 5-10 minutes a day and he doesn't have much privacy so it makes it hard to do any real talking.

[color:"red"]Can you please clarify? [/color]

Doxie: Again, let me reiterate that I have a lot of empathy for you and the difficult situation in which you have found yourself. Add to that the fact that your H is serving his country and you are manning the home fort by yourself.

But I think that your H's attitude could be better in this situation, and that is what I meant. After all, a simple dna test could very well prove negative. Problem solved! But avoiding the test makes it seem that he is pretty sure that the OC is his.

I could very well be reading this the wrong way. And I certainly don't mean to be giving you a 2x4, that is NOT my intent at all. At.All.

I know people can change. I am a FWW, who ended my A but didn't tell my H until years later. So I am not judging your H for having an A - far from it. But just as I have had to deal with the fallout from my A, I think that your H is going to have to deal with the fallout from his. Mine came years later, your H's came DECADES later.

Such is the way of things I have discovered.

I wish you and your family strength.

Could you give me a little more insight? Are you older than your OC sister? How old were you when you found out, etc? Did your dad continue to cheat or was it a one time event? Just trying to relate to your perspective if you could share a bit of your story or point me to a thread about it.

I guess you could say it's been out of sight/out of mind for the simple fact of geography; H joined the Army not long after the A and we moved away and haven't been back since. He was never contacted before so we assumed the matter settled and the other man was the father after all. Believe me, if FOW would have wanted to find him, it wouldn't have been to difficult, him being in the Army and all.

Well, I don't know what I was thinking when I read "someone else". My mind is not altogther here these days. I went back and re-read your post.

I do get very frustrated with him and I'm trying to be patient. My main goal is that he come back home safely and I hate that there is something HUGE to distract him. Thank God he's not out on the front lines but he is around big equipment all day and it doesn't pay to have your mind wandering and have a truck fall on you or run you over because you're distracted. He is in Baghdad so there are all the other general worries too.

My frustration is that he is willing to say that he feels certain but won't do a test. He's never thought of him as a "son" and it will take some time and he might never get there. I've managed to get him from NC to thinking about it. What can I say ~ he's a stubborn redneck (in the best sense of the word) Texan. It takes gentle words to penetrate and show him a different point of view (and loads of patience).

I know that it's too late to stop contact between the boys but from a mother's point of view, I want to know about him and what makes him tick, so to speak. They will want to meet someday when we get back to the States. He's an older brother to my son so naturally he'll look up to him. I just need to know, as a mother, that he's ok. How do I know this????

Thank you for your support.

You're absolutely right - your H's safe return should be your main focus. I would encourage him to continue to speak to the chaplain and unburden himself so that he is not unduly distracted by this turn of events.


You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.


Your parental concern is *completely* understandable; I'm sure I would feel the same (I have 2 teenagers). And as I said before, your son comes across as a great kid. For that you should be very proud. Take care.

DL - sorry, I cannot help with your post, but do you need another doxie? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the offer but no. H and DS are trying to talk me into another dog. We did have 2 but our other one has gone on to the big puppy farm in the sky. She was 15. Our boy, Otto, is 6 tomorrow. They are a trip. Hilda was a red and Otto is a black and tan. What is yours? We did have a Rottweiler also before we come over to Germany but we could only bring 2 pets. It was a hard decision but since we are living in apartment style quarters with no yard, the big one was the obvious choice.

I have a female miniature wirehair. 6 years old.

A long story. Let's just say I acquired sole possession as a result of the divorce.

Her: It was YOUR decision NOT to move out, so YOU have to keep the dog.

Me: Oh, OK, using that logic, I keep the house, the son and all the furniture, too, right?

Her: NO! THAT'S DIFFERENT!!!!

WAT