Celt--
I talked to Luke's wife BEFORE Luke came over and talked about his affair to me!! I did NOT tell Janet what he'd said to me. Read about my discussion with Janet. Then read my post describing Luke's visit. That should clarify things for you.

WAT,
I am so stressed out over the things going on in church, and then to read Celt's & the others' posts...it's crazy! I tried to explain to Celt that Luke didn't describe his "awesome sex" to me before I talked to Janet. Our conversation took place after he'd been confronted--well, you know that already. I'm feeling so dragged down by all of this, and then the theological arguments on top of it. Of course we believe and follow the 10 Commandments! Oh, it's so pointless to get into that kind of discussion because it's one that really can't be explained adequately via the computer! It's a topic that deserves our presence! Do you know what I mean?

Anyway, the big surprise yesterday was that John and Kathy were not in church! We had a guest preacher and the reason was that John and Kathy had been called away on "a family emergency." I don't know what happened as I did not sit down to talk with John, and I sure didn't approach Kathy. Luke was not in church either. My husband and I stopped by the farm briefly and visited with Luke's sister. She said she was "relieved" that this was "out in the open." She said Luke is having a hard time--very angry. She said he doesn't want to talk to me or see me. That's okay. I'm sure he'll come around eventually. Maybe once the "fog" wears off? I'm feeling really drained and very teary. I don't know what Janet is doing. His sister said she's still in the house with Luke, but offered no info other than that.

So many changes! Will he ever get over that woman? How will he get over her if she remains in town? I doubt John will leave our church, at least not for a while; it takes time to find another church.
LJ

Endures4evr - Luke's comments about the sex are typical of affairs, particularly Class II affairs. You should have read, as I did, what my wife wrote about her affair....it is still difficult to recall even though I know it's "typical" and no longer "then," but now.

As for the being dragged down by theological arguments, excuse me? I did not get into a theological discussion with you, I asked you a few questions that ALL Christians need to ask themselves. If THAT was "dragging you down," then you have my apology because you have other problems to deal with beyond the Luke and Kathy issue.

Endures, now you have to "step back" and let the process proceed. You have done about all that you can right now, the affair is destabilized, and the people directly involved must now deal with their marriages and the challenges facing them. You can stand ready to support if called upon, but they have to walk this path for themselves.

I would strongly suggest that, if given the opportunity, you recommend they each get into joint Christian Marital Counseling with a trained counselor who is committed to saving marriages and stressing obedience to God for Christians.

Now, for you own sanity, you need to stop over empathasizing and identifying with John. Put your efforts, if you must, into John's wife. She is going to need much support and it does not sound like she has much of a support structure or friends to turn to. Remember, John may be a "long time friend," but he CHOSE adultery. His wife did not. It doesn't matter at this point if she fell into the trap of investing too much into the baby and neglecting John and the marriage. John's choice was 100% wrong, and you can't, or shouldn't, be making excuses for his consequences. He has to face them and learn from them. That IS hard, but it IS necessary.

God bless.

Well, yea. A dire family emergency! I hope the whole truth eventually comes out so that observers can learn something. It would be sad to sweep this under the rug even further.

FH said:

Here's one of those times where we agree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You ARE now smarter than the average bear about the dynamics of infidelity. This knowledge may be beneficial for your dear friends if they call upon you. An action you can consider for the families is to get them copies of "Surviving An Affair" by Harley, available from the bookstore on this site or just about any on-line bookseller. A small investment that can reap great rewards.


Once begun, the "withdrawal" process is not unlike that of other addiction withdrawals. This is discussed in SAA. As many former WSs who post here will relate, once they permanently beam down from the Mothership, they are amazed at their actions and statements in hindsight. Luke may follow this pattern.

But this does not address the pre-existing problems in his and Janet's marriage. Literally speaking, the affair was not the problem. It was merely a symptom of marriage disease. The fever of the virus.

Ultimately, I hope your dear friends appreciate how good a friend you've been to them.

WAT

edit: I think FH meant "Luke" instead of "John" in his last paragraph above. And I agree. Janet has a tough row.

(FH, you have John and Luke confused. John is the 'faithful' pastor. His wife, Kathy, has been having the A with Luke, Endure's long time friend. Janet is Luke's wife to whom Endure exposed the A.)

Wow,

So many things going on. I know I'm coming in a bit late and catching up on things. I started this last night and didn't get to finish it until this AM.

Hi Endures,

You've got a lot of things going on here. I would suggest you do your best to focus on the things that are important. Part of that would be to make sure you don't stress out. You are concerned about Luke and Janet, John and (maybe Kathy) and the future of the church. That's a whole lot of burden to carry. And really one you weren't meant to carry. At least not by yourself.

So, what are the priorities? First is always your relationship with God. You're probably doing ok with that. but with everything going on it's easy to focus on other stuff. While it's easy to look at the pastor and elders for not doing what they should, it is important to keep your eyes on Jesus as your example and always point to Him for everyone else.

The next is your Relationship with your H. Make sure he's doing ok and your M is ok. Everything else, Luke and Janet's M, John and Kathy's M and what happens in the church is secondary. I know that sounds a bit callous, but if things are getting a bit overwhelming then you need to remind yourself of the priorities.

Regarding the extracurricular activity here on this thread, if anyone wants to continue that discussion another thread can be started.

If Celt doesn't believe you and you know you are telling the truth, then the problem lies with him.

FH, I may be wrong here, but the way I understood Endures was that she didn't want a theological debate to go one on this thread while she was trying to focus on the situation at hand. I didn't take it to understand that she was refusing Scriptural advice. I did understand that Luke may not except guidance from scripture and maybe more so directly from Endures. Which would be par for the course. Anything that rebukes what they (WS & OP) want, they will tend to reject, whether it is Scripture, MB principles or just plain logic. I think we both know that our wives were not ready to recieve any scripture that told them what they were doing was wrong.

It's good to see WAT and FH agree sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. Miracles do happen! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have the best day you can, Blessing to everyone.

S&C

Nope - not a miracle. Just reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT
-----------------------
Humans have amazing abilities to deny logic and reason when they contradict our feelings and beliefs.

Endures,

I think everyone can agree with both WAT and FH on this. The process is happening (a frustrating one for those that care and are watching) but it will be the individual choices made by the four of them that will determine the progress or lack of.


I think what WAT said here can never be overstated. Many tend to see that A as the problem, but is really is only a symptom. Some symptoms are worse than others. An A is worse than simple withdrawal from the M, much like a 104 degree fever is worse that a scratchy throat. Both caused by a virus. Treat the virus properly and the symptoms will go away.

Good points WAT and FH. Later'z.

S&C

I agree with Steadfast and Committed on making sure everything in your own household is ok. There is a reason the bible says LEST THOUGHT ALSO BE TEMPTED, in the verse "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." It's easy to get caught up in helping others to the point of forgetting about your own family, especially when it comes to these types of matters.

Thanks for the correction. You are right, I got the names confused. I probably shouldn't even be trying to post anything while trying to deal with my parents problems of senile dementia and having to change their entire lifestyles, sell the house, etc.

Thanks for pointing out a BIG mistake. I only hope that Endures knows what I meant.

God bless.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!! Regardless of the Scripture, Luke wasn't about to sit down and listen to what the Bible has to day about affairs and how they should be doused! I just want it understood that when there are different religions and/or denominations, practices will differ. It's not that I'm anti-Scripture; I'm not. But there are parts of the Bible we do not interpret literally. (the 10 Comm. are very much taken as they are written.) The example I gave was Genesis, which does not have relevance to this thread or topic, but it was an example of what we do not read in it's literal context. Okay, that's all I wanted to explain.

Thank you, all, for your imput, suggestions, and advice. I will be popping in from time to time to update you on whatever has evolved from this disaster! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> My hope is that Luke will straighten things out one way or another with Janet, that John and Kathy will get counseling and then get the ****** out of Dodge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, and that we will get a pastor that will free of heavy baggage so he or she can minister to a very fragile 'flock.'
LJ

Ask--
My husband and I have both been pretty involved with this crazy mess--me more so than him because of my life-long friendship with Luke. But we (Ed and I) make sure we keep each other engaged in our own relationship. We're very committed to each other. He's my rock! But thank you for your caring suggestion.
LJ

Wait 'til I tell you what happened today! I am still reeling! I got home from work at 2 p.m. and got in the door just in time to answer the phone. It was Kathy! She asked if she could come by "to talk." Her voice sounded a little quivery like she was holding back tears. So I said for her to come on over, and I made a pot of coffee (A nice shot of something strong would have come in handy!) She arrived about a half hour later and we sat down "to talk." The first thing out of her mouth was, "I won't stay long. I just want to know who in ****** you think you are! What business is it of yours to meddle into other people's private lives?!" After picking my jaw up off the floor, I said, as calmly as I could, "Your husband is my minister, and what affects him affects our church family, which includes me." She opened her mouth to speak, and I added that I could ask her the same question--what business is it of hers to meddle into other people's marriages! She said that she and Luke had been drawn to each other for months. If it was any of MY business, she and John just lived under the same roof but had no marriage, and it was the same thing with Luke's marriage. She said that when 2 people are equally miserable and find happiness in each other, whose business is it to interfere? I reminded her that she and John had taken vows before God and their families. She practically fluffed it off! She said, "Yes, so does everyone else. So...?" When she saw the shock on my face, she told me that some marriages are simply "not meant to last, that they are relationships whose purposes are to teach you something, but once that lesson is learned, the relationship has served its purpose and it's time to move on. I asked her why God would bless a union that was only "meant" to teach you something and then end? Marriage is a committment, which is why you promise to uphold the vows. I said that, yes, there are some relationships that are only meant to teach us something. But a marriage is a contract and a committment that is "meant" to last a lifetime (barring physical, sexual, or emotional abuse without an effort to change). She got so agitated with me! She said that I didn't know her and John enough to make any judgements. At some point in the heated conversation, she said that she has always required a lot of personal time, a lot of time to herself, and resented intrusions upon "her" time. She added that she has always been "extremely independent" and John was "very needy." I asked her if she had needs that John once fulfilled. She said he was like "a father" to her. And she said that he never enjoyed "doing things." I asked her what she and Luke did that John wouldn't do. She said he listened to her, treated her like a "friend", and they went on long bike rides together. She told me that for her birthday, he took her to a coastal town near here where they spent the day hanging out on some island! I asked her why John wouldn't do those things. She said, "You know what? It's pointless discussing this with you. You just want to argue!" And she got up and headed for the door! I said that I merely wanted to point out that John would probably agree to do anything she wanted if he knew what she wanted! And she turned and looked at me and said, "You make me sick! You don't know ******!" And off she went!

I was FLOORED!! I stood there at the door for about 10 minutes. Man, what is WRONG with her?! I thought for a minute that she was going to hit me! I really felt scared there for a minute. She seems unbalanced to me, but maybe her reaction is typical. Guys? Please tell me what you make of this? I'm still baffled!
Thanks!
Leslie

Endures,

It's called "Babble". It's a universal language all WS use.

I wonder what took Kathy so long to say anything to you. Usually a WS will tell the OP as soon as they've been found out. It's possible that Luke may have (I said "may" have) poked his head out of the fog for a bit and it scared Kathy. If he did, it doesn't stay out for long.

If course she is trying to get you to back down. If you don't, the A comes crashing down around her and Luke. I must say if I didn't know better, I 'd say you took a quick lesson from Orchid and Babble.


Bravo!! Here here!


Right out of the WS textbook.


Well done.


It's all Smoke and Mirrors, Deflection and changing the subject to something she can control.


Her reaction is typical. H never understood, OP listens to me, gets me. My W said that too.

It's baffling because you aren't in the Fog. But once you understand that what they say and do isn't logical, then you start to understand that anything can come out of their mouths. And they believe it too!.

I'd be interested in knowing what transpired between Luke and Kathy that made her want to see you. Because it's a safe bet that Luke had already told her right after you talked to Janet and Luke. so why the sudden need to talk to you today? Hopefully either Janet, Luke or John did something that jeoprodizes the A. Hopefully.

Really good job Endures, erally good.

Bless you.

S&C

Leslie - The responses of Kathy are typical of Wayward Spouses and go "hand in hand" with the rationalizations and justifications needed to make the Adultery "seem right" to the participants. What you are hearing are things that we have heard time and time again....it's right out of the "Adulterous Spouse Exposed 101 Manual."

EVERYONE, except for the participants in the adultery, are "meddlers" and "evil" and "wrong." But don't let it bother you. Let the "Fogbound rationalizations" go in one ear and out the other. You did a very good job of reverse babble....keep it up.

Now, if you have not met with John, it is time to tell him about what you've seen and what Kathy has said to you. Kathy will have her "claws out," but you can't let that stop you. What is at stake is Kathy's soul, John's soul, the health of the local church body, etc. Those around Kathy and John, the "Elders, Deacons, whatever the spiritual leadership title at your church is" need to be involved because a Matthew 18:15-20 intervention is needed to help restore sinners to a walk with Christ and to protect the church body from allowing, by consent or unwillingness to confront deliberate sin by a member, the actions of some to destroy the church and it's ministry.

Remember that as painful as it might get at times, God WILL use all circumstances in the lives of His children to work for good in their lives. The "battle line" has been drawn, certainly by Kathy, and it sounds from what has been said previously, by John, that Adultery is no longer to be considered a "sin" and that "God condones, perhaps even supports," Adultery. The war is a spiritual one that can destroy the entire church as well as the two marriages.
"Thou shalt NOT...." is a literal command of God. This will perhaps be a time of testing for the church as a whole on whether or not they will stand on God's Word.

For Kathy and John the issue is even more basic. Adultery is unacceptable to God and it is the FAITHFUL SPOUSE, not the Adulterer who has God's "permission" to end the marriage in a divorce, because God views Adultery THAT seriously. For the Adulterers, God is equally blunt and clear....unrepentant Adulterers WILL NOT be in heaven. Thus if they refuse to repent....the "odds" are very good that they have never truly accepted Christ and surrendered their lives to God. When God IS Sovereign, the individual's "wants and desires" are secondary to God's commands, otherwise they are just "playing" at being a "Christian."

Things may get a lot tougher before they start to get better. So STAND on God's word and for "rebuking" with Scripture....whether or not you think they are "ready to hear it." Just like a child may not be "ready" to hear "don't touch that hot stove," you tell them anyway because it is the right thing to do. Remember, it ISN'T your "job" to get them to stop the affair, it is your "job" to point out "Why" Adultery is unacceptable to God just as it is our job to tell sinners who "don't want to hear it" that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation. Then we let God work in their hearts.

God bless.

Les - yep, par for the course.

What a model citizen, huh?

Predictably, as S&C and FH relate, they all sound the same and frequently recite the exact same dialogue. Downright spooky. The "invading her privacy" thing is standard fare.

WSs typically paint over all the mirrors in their lives. They cannot see that what they're doing and reasoning looks ludicrous. No mirrors to reflect in. "Privacy". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ever try reasoning with a drunk? Same thing.

Luke sounds more typical than Kathy as WSs go. He can be "rehabilitated" in the typical fashion - cold turkey withdrawal. Kathy sounds like a tougher case. She may need a total personality transplant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

John is an unknown to us. He may be completely adrift, waiting for advice.

Les - now you're an even SMARTER bear. You previously heard fog babble from Luke, now you got a full dose from Kathy - rounding out the "experience." We don't call it alien abduction for nuthin!

Oh, and good work.

WAT
--------------------
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.

The latest news is that the Board of Deacons will be meeting with the area association minister next month and will be discussing John's marital trouble. The association pastor will then meet with John, and it will probably be recommended that he step aside and work on his marriage before returning to the ministry.

This gets worse each week! Thanks for your thoughts!
Leslie

Endures4evr - Okaaaaayyyy....many things that could be said, but instead let me ask a question.

Instead of the Deacon Board "passing the buck" to the Area Association Minister why aren't THEY working with John and Kathy? Or are they are and are they meeting "resistance?"

John would seem to be one of the "innocent bystanders" in this mess, but John CAN'T "work on his marriage" alone. It takes TWO to work on a marriage.

Yes, this is MESSY because it involves the Pastor, so I'm a bit concerned that there may be rush to "punish" John for his wife's sin. No doubt about it, though, Adultery IS potentially divisive and destructive for a church body and must be "confronted in love" for the health and well-being of the body. I would only caution about "throwing the baby out with the bath water."

I guess my concern is "who is 'coming alongside' John to help and support him in this time of trial and tribulation?" Or does John get punished for having a "Gomer" for a wife and lose his job, etc., over HER sins....as is "guilt by association?" It's already going to be much harder on John than on many others because the "circle of knowledge" of his wife's affair IS going to be churchwide. So adding to the public humiliation will be losing his job before the church applies Matthew 18:15-20 to Kathy?

I'm feeling for you and your church....this IS going to get a lot more painful before it gets better.

God bless.

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Endures4evr, how are things going?

Thinking of you and everyone involved.

God bless.

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