heh, i see alot of posts when a BS comes and posts "my blah blah had an affair" and someone says "what EN did you not fullfill?"

edit: ridiculous

In other words, all would be fine in the marriage of Penalty Kill and Penalty Box, if that nasty old witch hadn't spilled the beans.

That is the conclusion that I have come to after this marvelous, thought provoking thread.

There are some exceptions...but in GENERAL.....Exposure to ALL parties directly involved SHOULD happen....and it should happen as fast as humanely possible.

It should NOT be based on a Betrayed Spouse's timeline. That is selfish and inhumane. Can you as a Betrayed Spouse live with the fact that you allowed by your ommission another woman/man to possibly contract an STD or other disease simpply because you didn't want to expose this affair. can you live with this on your soul?

Cowardice is no excuse. Being emotionally distraught is no excuse. We as Betrayed Spouses do NOT have the right to withhold life altering information from other people. We do NOT have the authority to make decisions for other people....even if we THINK we know better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Once we find out about an affair, we are OBLIGATED to reveal to the other party. That is what I conclude from this. I think most agree. Yes, there are some situations that it may not BE necessary, but by and large...IT usually IS. As a BS, if we withold this information from the other person's spouse, we might as well have had an affair ourlselves....the outcome remains the same.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Celt:

Thanks bro......I needed that....LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Note to Justus: Please send me a written warning premptively. I cannot be sure that in the future I will not write posts that are deemed "offensive" to others.

Lemonman

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with PK on just about everything which is a shame as you'd think as FWWs we'd understand each other.

I have the feeling, not that I know of course but from the general tone of the conversation during our genuine accidental meeting, that OM blames my H for "wrecking" his marriage or at least making his M uncomfortable for him by telling his w.

Excuse me, OM "wrecked" his marriage by having an A with me.

My H could make adult decisions based on the real facts of what was happening in our marriage because he knew what he was up against. I couldn't live with myself knowing that I held facts about someone else's life that was affecting them whether they knew it or not. Not guilt on my part, just basic human decency.

I am very against abortion, it's not a religious thing, it's a personal thing for me. Not because I've had one or anything like that. My DD has told me that if she should ever have an abortion (I don't think that is ever going to be a concern but you just never know) she won't tell me because she knows my views. That terrifies me. The fact that something that would affect my life so much might be kept from me i.e. not knowing that I may have had a grandchild. I would want to know, no matter how painful it was.

An opinion, viewpoint, etc. doesn't have to be backed by "facts", doesn't require "proof". If someone considers Dr. Harley to be an "expert" whom they can quote to
"prove" their opinion, back their viewpoint, etc....it's based on that person's belief, opinion, etc. that Dr. Harley is an "expert".

One may hold the belief that a + b = c. It may be accurate...or not. They may not be able to prove it by some type of empirical method. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't true. Or one can be totally off the wall with a belief or opinion, but find a piece of "evidence" to back it. All it takes is one opposing piece of evidence to show that something is not true in all cases.

I had an MRI as a part of trying to diagnose why I was having migranes. I loved my neurologist's viewpoint: "H.M., just because the MRI doesn't show anything doesn't mean there's not something there that could be giving you migranes. It may just mean that we haven't discovered the test yet, to discover it!"

Most of the things I've seen posted here seem to be some type of "opinion, belief, feeling, etc." So, how can one person claim that they are "right" and you are "wrong" ? Please have some courtesy when expressing your opinion, thoughts, beliefs, viewpoint, etc.

heartmending better said what I and my H were trying to say. It is our OPINION that in OUR case, the exposure did more harm than good.

Nowhere do we say that we are right, and everyone else is wrong. I posted a cautionary tale. My H was interested enough to spend considerable time on a post himself. This is our M, our opinion. I believe that we are entitled to that opinion, and we are not shoving it down everyone else's throats.

He was treated with considerably more respect than I, which is fine. I recognize that what I did was wrong. I am a FWW who ended her A years ago. I am not arguing that infidelity is right, but you would think that I was, *and* that I was in an active affair, based on the tone of ML's posts to me.

My H and I are entitled to hold our opinion, that exposure by a 3rd party, LONG after the A is dead and done, when the FWS is no serial philanderer, but simply a foolish, idiotic human being who made a mistake, and was in every way working to change herself - is a double-edged sword that cuts both ways. To think that only good can come of exposure in a case like ours, particularly when there are children involved, is naive (BTW, I have never had an STD, nor has my H)

As I said, our opinion is one that many who know us, therapists, friends and former friends of the OM's W, share. Are they *all* wrong, too? And I *still* maintain that nowhere do I see Dr. Harley advocating a 3rd party exposure (which is the topic of this thread, after all) for an A that has been over for years. He does advocate that the WS/FWS tell all to the BS, no matter how much time has elapsed. Instead, I see ML taking Harley's quotes and using them to form her own opinion and presenting it as fact - and telling me that I am wrong and she is right, and that she speaks directly from Dr. Harley.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Everyone. Even me. Even my H. (Unless they are advocating adultery on this website, which we most certainly are not. Our friends have seen what we have gone through, been very supportive, and have said that they learned some lessons of their own.)

And my H thanks everyone for their concern as to the health of his M, but we are doing as well as can be expected, and have even had some *very, very* good days this year.

Good luck, penaltykill. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is just your opinion, right? You aren't claiming to be "right" in this opinion, are you?

Having been a client of the Harleys, and having spent many years on this board, I'd llike to clarify something that seems to be misconstrued.

Harley (as ML pointed out a couple times with direct links) is a strong advocate of truth in a marriage. It's one of the fundamentals (Radical Honesty). Therefore, exposure IN THE MARRIAGE is a very important thing when dealing with an affair. If you're a BS, you need to confront your wayward spouse with information. You may want to wait a bit---to help you get your act together and get professionals lined up (counseling for you, counseling for them, a lawyer---whatever you need). And if you're a wayward spouse with an affair that's past---the same deal goes (I wouldn't line up the lawyer).

So---Harley is very much in favor of exposure of the affair as part of the Plan A strategy. To your spouse. With regard to exposure to everyone else (friends, family, affair partner's spouse), it's not a black and white case---and never is it presented as such in counseling. When you work with the Harley's, you learn to deal with the cornerstones---the Rules of Care, Protection, Honesty, and Time (EN's, LB's, RH, 15 hrs/week). You also learn how to use this tool called the Policy of Joint Agreement to try to make decisions as a couple, to prevent selfish or independent behaviors to further wreck your marriage. Although difficult to do during an affair (which really does an excellent job with defining "selfish" and "independent"), it still is part of the Plan A counseling that you would get.

So, with regards to any exposure to other parties, this (in general) needs to be a discussion between the spouses, with respectful negotiation techniques, to reach a POJA-style decision. "Hah", I bet many of you are thinking. Well, it's not impossible to do---especially when the BS uses the correct negotiation tactics (no LBing, respect, attempt to reach a POJA)---but you probably won't reach a enthusiastic agreement on this. What is important is that you illustrate to your spouse good maritial behavior and you listen to their objections. If you have a strong compulsion to do something outside of what you've agreed on---then you owe it to your spouse to attempt to continue to negotiate (brainstorm). When that fails, you need to inform them that you must take whatever action this is (let's say exposure to an OP's spouse), why you feel this way, and that it's not meant to ignore your spouse's feeling to the contrary.

One thing that is often lost with regards to these boards is that the process of Marriagebuilding is often more important that some of the rules (expose or not?). The processes of being thoughtful, considerate, honest, and spending time with each other are there to rebuild love---which is the premise of MB's bottom line. Unilateral decisions carried out with the bluntness of a baseball bat to the head, no matter how righteous and moral they may be, will never help your marriage.

This is a crystal clear example of the condescending tone that has been mentioned. Whether it is intentional or percieved, well that's a whole nother subject I guess.

When my first post was met by...



And then....



My perception was that my viewpoint was not valid. I do not discuss well when I am first told my viewpoint is stupid or wrong.

I don't feel I have to defend anything when I'm approached as above. I have since thought about my original position and have a lot of thought about it, but it will not be shared here. It is very difficult to go back and discuss ones point of view or even change it when one gets this sort of response



These were all said to me because I wouldn't "discuss" with what I felt was a bullying person.

And then add to it LM's foul language...well, why would anyone want to "explore" their viewpoint here?

Thanks Heartmending for your post...it said what I couldn't seem to get across because I was just having to defend why I didn't want to defend ???? .

That post said it all...one does not have to defend an opinion...(even if Mel says ya do). One may be open to, but not required to. I was not open to after the verbal assault that took place (that is my perception!!)

And then to witness the unkind things said to others (namely penaltykill and H), ....what's to discuss?

For my situation, I weighed this heavily (I fall more under the category of "the OP's spouse needs to know). However, the OP and his wife were in the middle of divorcing (for their "own" reasons, not necessarily due to the affair between my wife and him). In the end, I did not expose the affair to her---I saw it more of an act of revenge than anything else, and in discussions with my wife, she was not "enthusiastic" about the thought of me going to his wife (surprise... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />).

Well, Surviver, your idea of "assualt" is to have your ideas questioned. That ain't an assault, dear. If you had a defensible position, you should WANT to validate that. But you think that your views are above reproach and consider it an "assault" to be questioned or challenged. You don't differentiate between a personal attack and a challenge of the issues.

You are simply angry because you CAN'T support your position.

If an "opinion" is to be taken seriously, it must be supported with reason, facts, logic. Without that, they are just meaningless, blind assertions. All opinions are not legitimate; some should be outright dismissed because they are just stupid and cannot be supported using reason or good judgement.

Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but they are not entitled to be taken seriously if they can't support their opinion with reason and logic. Nor can you say that right and wrong don't apply to opinions; of course they do. That might be said about matters of taste, but the same can't be said about opinions. Some opinions are clearly right and some are clearly wrong; some are clearly stupid.

And Surviver, it is very telling that you have spent all your energy on this thread whining about having your view questioned, instead of offering up the reasons and logic that brought you to that conclusion. What a waste of time and energy! You could have spent all this time selling your viewpoint instead!

Top Rope,
It was never my intention to ignor you or your Q's on this post the other day. I had a case of diarhea of the mouth the other day, and have since publically apologised to all.
I'll try to state my pos on this if you still want to do so.
I'm a lousey typist to bear with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

She already knew this as this was not the first time OM'XW had caught him red handed. Why would adding my W's name to list make any difference to what she had already discovered?
She had all the info she needed to prove her H was a serial cheat, even without my W being added to the list .

NOt the case Top, she alreready had another bf and wasn't even considering R of her M. She is now happily remarried and living elsewhere.
Not even remotely the case. See above.

OM'XW akready jnew what what going on and her decision to leave and D had virtually nothing to do with my W(well,sorta). My W became just another knotch in his bedpost, to sort of speak.This type of thinking is, i believe what set off so many triggers for me the other day. Sorry you all had to witness the sometime insanity of a BS. I thought I was past that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

Yes, yes, and yes to all of the above!
Let me ask a hypothetical Q if I may.
If you were to take a written exam and were told if you get one Q wrong, you fail the exam, would it make any dif if you got one wrong or ten wrong Q's? Would you not go back and hit the books so you don't fail again? Hence, MB priciples. I gone back to hit the books! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I should let my W answer this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />, I hounded her for any any all details, continuously. To the point that our MC told be to stop. I was way beyond any logic for keeping this up. All Q's werre asked and answered many times over.
Top, you must understand it was was never my intetion to igor or refuse to answer your Q's. I simply couldn't type fast enough to answer all that was being directed at me on that particular day. Are we cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />?
Thanks for your input.
All Blessings,
Jerry

You have made my case for me again. Thank You.

I now rest my case.

I am sorry to any that feel my input was a distraction...

Have a good one.

Jerry - I have not read this whole thread, only the first page, and I wanted to respond to your sitch. You claim that telling OMS would do more harm than good, right? What if, in court, she cannot prove the infidelity, and gets hammered in divorce proceedings, whereas, if she knew about your W's ONS with her STBX, she could get her fair share? Wouldn't it be a good thing for her to know the whole story?

Cat

Hi Cat A,
What you have proposed was not even close to what was actually happening, but having said that, I would have no problem whatsoever telling her the truth in the matter.
Does that answer the question?
All blessings,
Jerry

Jerry - now that I have read a little bit more of the thread, I see that you are clearly an exception. Serves me right for replying before reading the whole thing!

***************edit*************

Problems, questions or comments--- email----
JustUss2@aol.com