Traicionado...I still think you are very tired. You sound different , you sound like you are giving up, like you are losing hope. And thats the last thing you should do. There is a lot of hope in your situation.

I dont see no inaction from your part. I think you are doing a lot in your marriage, because you want to recover what you think you have lost.

No, I dont think you should turn the house upside down to find out if Gemela is still in contact. Look at her straight in the eye, and ask her if she still in contact. She will get nervous, she will get fidgety..you will know, I am sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So basically I get to have no enjoyment out of this at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did I mention I forgot the shoes she has in storage in the USA? I can think of the 5 pairs of Harley boots, the shoes I brought her all the way from Canada for the wedding because she saw them in a bridal magazine (which she has never worn once - it was raining that day), and a few others. She has a lot of shoes. I only mention this because her favorite hiding place is in her shoe boxes.

Maybe I am tired. I am on day two and the final day of CI.

If I had given up, I wouldn't post. That is when you will know I have given up.

You know, that is really loaded. The first double negative becomes a positive and the last part "what you think you have lost" can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Put that in the context of what is lost is lost forever. You can never go back to the M that was before the A. You make it sound like I am chasing a pipe dream. I am guessing that is not what you meant. I am interpreting your meaning as I haven't really lost anything even though I may believe I have - it was never really gone. That is how I will read it unless you want to change my mind. I am not sure I agree with it in its entirety but I will accept your point.

Oh,oh,,,,sorry if I was misunderstood. You did loose a lot, I was talking about the love of your wife. You did not loose that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

No, you cannot go back to how the marriage was before. It is a different "ball game" now. For sure. I dont want to change your mind. HOw can I do that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I am just giving you my oppinion and take on Gemela, because I was once a WW, I was once in her place. I am in a far better place now, thank God.

"Chasing a pipe dream"? I dont know what that means....sorry. Maybe you can explain that one.

Again, I tell you, that you are definetely different. Different thoughts are going thru your mind, bothering you a lot. Talk to Gemela, open up how you feel to her. Talk to us, we are here for you. To try to help you.

We love music here too, by the way. Big fans of rock...Beatles,Doors,etc.etc. Just last night we went to see a cover band, playing like the Doors,really fun!!

I don't think I missed anything. I think I got your meaning right and I am still on the page with you. Words are powerful. I got an email once about this situation and the use of one word sent me over the edge. The word was meant in sarcasm but I took it as truth. One simple word...

Yes we are all a bit sensitive. Don't worry - I am not giving up. One movie quote and one TV quote. Anyone can guess the references.

First quote: "I am NOT ... leaving ... my wingman."

if anybody tries to get in the way of my M to gemela, second quote:

"I pity the fool!"

I still think you misunderstood me Traicionado. I know after having an affair, a lot is lost. But for sure, in my case, my love for Stanley is stillh here. I did a stupid thing with a stupid man, but I still love my husband. And I am sure Gemela still loves YOU, so that was not lost!!!

And I know you are not referring to me, but to make sure. I did not say anything to you in a sarcastic manner. Ok?

I am glad you are not giving up, you should not. I will write you tomorrow, so you can pass my email to Gemela. To see if she can open up to me...I want to help you in any way I can.

Hopefully now, we are still in "the same page" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I didn't want to mention any names but he is aware of it and the problem it caused me so, to keep you from wondering and hoping not to offend him, the email with the confusing word was from someone in Iceland (I hope you don't live in Iceland BTW - not that it wouldn't be good - for you, that is). (And I did say email - not post).

Yes we are still on the same page. WW just called and wanted to know how I am doing. I reminded her she had an invitation to play golf with the girls this AM. She had forgotten. Told me she still has much to do to get ready for Bday party. I told her golf was more important and that she needed to get out with the girls. I would stay up all night tonight and finish the gift boxes if she would agree to take time out to play golf. Hope she goes.

I think I will still wait to mention the contact doubts during MC tomorrow. Seems like the most neutral environment. Failing that, I guess I can ask her periodically about calls but I thought it would be considered an LB. Darn I wish I had more experience at this BS stuff! It would be sooo helpful.

cc46,

Don't give up on me please. You have great insight. I am so glad this topic came up because it is the one serious issue on the table at the moment and the one that gives me the most doubts. I just like this so much I have to repeat it. Strother Martin described WW and my situation best in the movie "Cool Hand Luke". he said: "What we have here is a failure to communicate".

If WW were to come to me and hand me a cell phone and say I could have it because she no longer needed it, I would never say a word (well - maybe "thanks").

Hey Mom,

Thanks for the "Rocky" CD. Passed customs and everything. I'll put "Gonna Fly Now" on the iPod tonight.

Hey Traicionado, I haven't given up on you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was getting my beauty sleep! We're in different parts of the world, remember? I'm in South America.

Stanley has given you good advice about the contact: look at Gemela in the eyes and ask her. If her answer doesn't sound sincere, ask her again.

Another important thing: you shouldn't walk on eggshells or minefields! It's OK and not an LB to show how hurt you are. You should tell Gemela how things make you feel. Otherwise she will probably think everything is OK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think that in MC you should say everything you are feeling, all the doubts you have, etc.

I have to go to work and have no possibility of writing to MB there. I think you are very strong and love your wife very much. I would still recommend you write to Dr. Harley. Everything becomes very simple, logical and obvious when it comes from the "horses mouth". The rest is working on oneself.

BTW another thing I don't agree with you is that your plan A is only avoiding LBs. That is the ONE THING that should NOT be plan A but the NEW BETTER YOU! From now on LBs are no longer part of you.

Your plan A now is exposure if necessary, a little patience, and confronting Gemela with your feelings (with no LBs, not an easy thing to do, I'm sure, but you can do it). Confronting was one thing I didn't do well and plan on learning as soon as I get a chance. But you have to confront her.

Have to run now, but will be back in about 8 hours.

cc46,

I know Plan A is the new and improved me. I am just fuzzy on some of the no-no's not permitted during Plan A. More specifically - some things I believe are LB's may not actually be LB's. I don't fully understand the guidelines or limits of Plan A. I will research in SAA though.

I don't think I feel like eggshells or minefields today. I did feel that way very early on in the process and I just wanted to relate to people in this process that they need not tread with fear.

My take on plan A:

I would use plan A behavior for a WW that wants the marriage and is actively trying to end the affair.

If WW insists on continuing the affair then IMHO, the best plan is to throw her out and inform the entire family that the marriage is ending because W was unfaithful. I don’t get this plan A where BH pretends tom be nice when inside he is more like a ticking atomic bomb. Supposedly this nice behavior is going to entice the WW back. Perhaps this works when the BH was behaving poorly pre-affair. But, there are times when the BH was behaving quite nicely pre-affair. How in the world can anyone improve on that?

So my advice is as follows:

If Tracionado was a good H and dad before affair there is very little ground to gain by trying to fix something that is not broken.

What I told Myrta post d-day was that I would work on the marriage only if she was 100% committed. Otherwise the marriage was over. I have the sensation that gemela may respond to that approach. The nice Traicionado approach 24/7 has caused a lot of confusion in Gemela. I think she was probably expecting something else. Within this context the CI maneuver may work well.

In addition----because of the age difference I believe Gemela expects a firm viewpoint and direction from Traicionado. I would demand complete clarity at all times as well as a detailed summary of her day including frequent phone calls to report her activities.

WWs can be quite tricky------Myrta complained to the high heavens when I told her I needed her passwords. The funny thing is that she always knew my passwords.

I agree with Stanley. I believe Gemela is VERY CONFUSED and she's not seeking help here at MB. Maybe she has help from someone else...

Good luck with MC tomorrow

cc46,

I have no idea who is helping her.

Stan-ley,

I understand about accountability but I am not sure I can do it. If she is up to anything, I am 99% certain it is going on outside the house or else she has a hidden cellphone.

Update:

Well I feel another whacking coming on but here goes anyway. Yesterday I went home and helped WW with the Bday gift boxes. I think she was ready to give up and try something else but between the two of us, we got it done and it all looks good. She did play golf yesterday with three ladies and played very badly. She quit after 4 holes and said she needs us to go to the driving range and work on her swing (I am her coach). Talk is pleasant and fine and then somewhere in the course of the afternoon I reminded her we had MC today. She reminded me that today is early dismissal for DD1 so she gets out at the same time our MC session would be ending. This was a problem for her and said it was not worth going to MC. She told me to move it to this morning knowing full well it is not that simple. I got mad and told her she could do whatever she wanted but I was going alone to MC. I told her she was always looking for excuses to avoid doing the things we could do to work on the M. She was always busy playing golf or doing something else that she could not find time to go to IC. She found ways to get out of MC, etc. It was obvious to me that she was not interested in R in the least.

I went upstairs and watched something on TV. Who knows what. Then I turned the lights out and started to go to sleep. She got in bed a little later and asked to hold me. I let her but did not reciprocate – LB I know. We went to sleep that way. I think it was when I got up to throw up 1/3 of what was in my stomach that I got back in bed and WW was awake by then. Then I told her I was upset because we never talk. We can't go on pretending that nothing has happened and that it will just go away. I'm upset that she seems to have no interest in doing the things we should be doing like IC, MC, NC, EN survey and, most importantly, communicating. I told her I was convinced she was still in contact with OM because she was way too happy. She denied it. I said the way she is acting is not the way someone acts when they have lost the love of her life so the only logical conclusion is that she hasn't lost anything. She insisted that she was unhappy. We agreed that is something we have in common. I reiterated that this thing would not go away on its own. If she was just waiting to eventually get over her feelings for OM, that could take years and I was not interested in waiting years. If she keeps this up, she might decide she really wants the M but the danger is I might decide I no longer want it. Right now I still love her and still want to R the M for the DD's and for her (WW). But she is progressively killing off that desire. If she is thinking I am just going to sit patiently by until she makes up her mind, she is mistaken. This is more or less where the conversation stopped. We were both still for a few minutes and then she reached over and started holding me again.

The rest of the night was a mess. DDs are sick again vomiting with stomach cramps so they were in and out of bed with us. So am I. I got up about 2:00 and emptied out the remainder of my stomach. When I got up this AM, I got back in bed and held WW for a while. Now WW is sick. WW and DDs are home in bed. I came into work because I have no choice. I have my recycle bin by my side just in case. I still have MC (now IC) at 1:00.

It was not my intention to bring up NC but the busted MC was just too convenient. WW does not need to pick up DD1 from the school. We live right across the street from the school. If WW had gone to MC, she would have gotten home exactly the same time as DD1 if DD1 had walked. It was an easy solution but WW went straight to canceling the appointment.

No lumber whacks from me. I think you are justified in what you did. She is avoiding MC whether she does not want to face the music or to take the opportunity to call OM. Neither is good. It's been six months and she is still not committed to R.

What's your next move?

My next move is to throw up. My head is pounding. I can't think beyond that. I guess I will go to IC today. Can't hurt. The CI is over. That's good. I guess I could ransack the house looking for a cellphone?

Can I be honest? She really does sound sincere when she says she has not talked to OM. The main reason I suspect contact is that I DON'T see withdrawal. I don't think the cipralex is THAT good.

I almost forgot: during our discussion last night I did tell her it bothered me very much that she was getting marriage advice from someone who was and is still involved in a 10 year affair. I told her I didn't think that an adulteress was in the best position to give marriage advice. I did tell her it bothered me very much that she was listening to SIL so much.

I also told her that I did not like her definition of family. In her mind, family was SIL, FIL, MIL, tias, tios, primas, primos, and her casa was back in Mexico. I told her my family was her and DDs and my house was wherever we were together. I told her I loved my mom, sisters, family but when we get married, we move our priorities to wife and kids.

Sorry - ToddAC just reminded me of that.

traicionado,

I am reasonably sure that throwing up is a LB. Don't do it.

I would turn the house upside down to see if there is a hidden cell phone. I did this myself and felt so much better when I did not find one. Then, that weekend, I opened her glove box to get the tire pressure gauge out to check her tires. There was the cell phone.

I don't know about your WW, but mine can lie with the best of them. Before her A, it was obvious when she was lying.

Traic, there's withdrawal. Believe me.

Involuntary reflexes cannot be considered a LB. This is why I always carry a bottle of syrup of Ipecac with me whenever I get called into my boss's office for a private meeting - just in case I get fired.

Nobody takes getting fired well. Okay you could cry and they might not hold that against you but screaming and shouting or, worse, getting a gun and shooting up the place (or as a good friend calls it - "going postal" - I just love that) are NOT going to look good on a resumé and will likely diminish your chances of getting a good reference.

If you are getting fired, just as soon as the boss turns his head, swig a little Ipecac and vomit all over his desk. You get a little revenge and there is no way it can be held against you as it is an involuntary reflex.

Throwing up ON WW may be considered a LB but it depends on the context. Last weekend during our Pub Run, I did throw up on WW's feet but I think she actually liked it in a certain way. Made her feel like she was caring for me.

No, the jury is out on vomiting as a LB.

Now I am worried about you.