MC started okay. We discussed that we need to communicate. Make time alone. Discuss how we really feel without fear. WW said this was difficult for her. Mostly this was the theme. MC ended with WW crying, walking out and yelling at me before she left. It is still somewhat of a blur.

I asked the MC after WW left if maybe things have gone too badly wrong and maybe we just need to be apart. She said not just yet but I am not so sure.

I am thinking maybe I am ready to put the 6 month with OM free trial offer back on the table. Let her see if it really can work out.

traicionado,

I know you are tired. It is easy to understand. You have been a trooper. But no, sending WW to OM for six months is not a good idea. No, it is a terrible idea. You have to suck it in and keep putting one foot in front of the other. Unless you want to move in with DS1 and me...


PS Don't ask me why I am still up. And no, not doing what I did last night. Not one little bit.

She says she wants to go to Mexico rather than England. She has decided that the way I am is the way I will always be and that I am incapable of changing. I told her there is no point of even trying if that is what she believes. We are discussing separation now.

Does she plan to go to Mexico on a trial basis or move back there? And sans DD?

I am sorry to hear this news.

I have no idea. We will hopefully discuss more tonight.

Traicionado,

don't give up! I see it as very positive that SOMETHING is happening. Hold on, keep insisting on the 15 hours.

The MC did not go wrong. It was the most open dialogue we have had in months. It showed me that gemela will never allow her perception of me to change. She is convinced I will always be all the negative things she hates. Maybe she is completely right. I am biased so my opinion cannot be trusted. She said very specifically that she is certain I will never change. That being the case, I see no point in trying to convince her. Her mind is already decided.

I do think she has had valid criticisms. She may not have understood the reasons (or at least my POV) but her perception is overall good. I also will continue to work on and improve those things even after she is gone because I know she is right. I may not have a better marriage but at least I will be better as a person.

You are right - I am very positive something is happening too - I am very positive we are separating.

TRAICIONADO....where is the passion for your wife? You are just going to let her go to Mexico, just like that?
You are giving up so soon,just because, she has this oppinion of you that you will never change? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. You are not fighting for your wife like a man that truly loves his wife.
If she has been in NC with OM, she has gotten good advice here In MB, why is she so adamant that you will never change? She must be getting some "advice" from some negative sources. She is not making this decision on her own. Dont you think? Just yesterday when she posted, she was very positive about working on the marriage. All of a sudden, this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

She needs to see love, want, passion from you! If you give up so easy, you are just showing her that she is not worth it! That pushes her to OM.

Some BS here are in much worst situations than yours, Todd for example, and he still has hopes for his wife to come back. YOu have your wife right there with you in Saudi, so far from OM, and you are resolved to separate without even really trying. You should not let her go so fast...you just went to one MC and all this has happened.

Please reconsider your decision of sending Gemela back to Mexico? By the way, if she goes to Mexico, is she going with or without the girls?

Myrta

Wait till the dust settles till you start to assess and obsess.

ALWAYS keep your temporal perspective straight.

Stay in Plan A. (Meaning, don't let your emotions cause more damage)

IF you do separate, it ain't the end of the world. It might be necessary. I'm certainly not a big proponent of it. I fought it tooth and nail. I set it up as a 'boundry'. All that being said, now that I'm further along in my journey, I can see why W wanted to separate, and I can see how it's done some good.

I am even willing to consider the possibility that separation is/was a necessary step in my recovery with Dylan. Dang, I wish I didn't have to admit that in public.

If it actually happens, perhaps it will end up being of benefit to you guys. Again... still not a proponent... but...

Dunno. Just try not to get too discouraged. Whatever happens, now is the time for you to be extra careful and extra mindful of your reactions.

No hugs this morning. Just a friendly pat on the back.

Gemela is just being the typical WS. I think she is saying that you will never change because she is seriously considering staying and working on the marriage. It is part of her withdrawal.

I'm 100% against separation. So are the Harleys. You can't work on a marriage while apart.

Sure you can. Ya rent side by side apartments then take your power saw and cut a doorway connecting the two apartments.

My son actually gets a kick out of telling his friends about his divorced parents.

On a serious note...

I agreed with the Harleys on this one. Totally. And I still do. BUT I also have to grudgingly admit that Dylan and I separating has in many ways helped us. I think that the 'space' that Dylan has gained through this separation has removed some of the fear associated with the situation. The time we spend together is by choice, not necessity and I think that goes a long way.

I can't believe I'm debating this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I still don't think separating is the key to resolving marital difficulties, apparently it is not the end of the world.

It is not the end of the world, but a higher percentage of people divorce once separation has happened.

I am worried.

I just can’t help it. Have to use an analogy: I once broke my nose skating (true!). Went to the doctor who told me that he could not settle it until the swelling stopped. A week later I go to him again and he pulls out a rubber hammer an WHACKS the nose. Had to break it again to settle it again. Hurt more than when I originally broke it. I guess MC is the same. Have to pull the scabs from the sores to see the wounds.

When you go home ask your wife whether you two can have a truce for some days. Some sort of a time out. Go out of your way to be decent to each other.

A common mistake is to carry on with arguments started at a MC session. One thing a MC is capable of is refereeing an argument and keeping it constructive. Without the MC the argument is just an argument.

Try to get 2-3 more MC sessions before either of you start discussing separation or divorce or 6 month OM sabbatical. At the moment OM is a moot point. Don’t drag him into your marriage again!

Do whatever you have to do to get yourself out of this funk. This is just a step in the path of recovery.

I also want to point one thing out: Your story about your daughters wanting to be in your room, wanting to be tucked in, wanting all this attention.
Kids are more perceptive than we realize. They know things are not right. Their reaction to the situation can come forth in many ways. They might think that since they think being tucked in is great for them that it is great for you. They might think that while you are tucking them in they know where you and/or their mother are – that you are not separated. Sometimes a kid yearns so much for security and attention that even “negative” attention is sought after. You two seriously have to evaluate the effects of the affair and the consequent interaction between you two and the reactions of the children. For example – trying to have a relationship discussion with teh DD around and/or awake is not a good idea. Take better care in chosing your battles and the battlefield.

Hey B, I'm no proponent of separation. I'm still angry and feel betrayed by those who recommended separation to Dylan. I hate going to bed without her. I hate the fact that we're not 'officially' working towards recovery. It sucks. I hate it.

But...

It is what it is...

And you gotta deal with what you got.

Like I posted to Adrian, you can respectfully not agree with the idea of separating, but to try and coerce someone into staying could cause more damage than the separation would.

Traicionado,

this is exactly what you needed! Don't separate now! Now is the moment that your plan A has to be the best ever and she will start to notice.

She's posting! That's great. Don't worry about what was said in MC. It's important that she's talking and so are you. Please tell me you haven't decided yet...

Let's see. Where to start. Excuse me for leaving out all the details because there is not enough raw lumber in the entire Amazon rain forest for your 2x4's.

Never saw or spoke to WW yesterday. This AM was almost the same but I had a change of heart. I went up to … don't know why I went up actually but I don't think it was to continue the fight ... yet that is more or less what we did although it was more discussion than fight (Don't even think about it, Bigger!). Rather than explain it all (can't remember it all anyway) and suffer your wrath, let me hit high points not necessarily in order.

WW says she doesn't think I will ever change but that I should have insisted that I could. Why did I give up so easily? She said I should have argued with her. I said I was just taking her at her word.

I asked who has been singly responsible for keeping this marriage alive to-date. Has she even lifted a finger? She agreed it was me and that she has done nothing.

I am very tired and am tired of hauling her along. She needs to get with the program. She needs to get off the sidelines.

She asked what I wanted. I said maintain NC and begin communication with me. She asked what she should communicate about because she is not ready to talk about much. I suggested we talk about the problems she believes we had pre-affair. What are the things about me that she would like to see different? She said no PC, more open to the girls and more sociable with people. I asked if there was anything else. She said that was mostly it. I asked why mostly? As long as we are going for change, let's try for the whole smash. I asked if I should throw the PC in the trash because I would be happy to do it right then. She reiterated that I will never change and be more sociable. So I said then that she is just repeating that she believes I am incapable of change. She said yes she is repeating it. So I asked if I had been spending any time on the PC. She said no. I asked if she had seen changes in my interactions with the girls. She said very much. So I asked if she agrees I have changed in some things already, how can she say that I am incapable of change? She didn't have an answer that was very convincing. I won't blabber on. I just caught her in her own logic trap but she never understood my point. She still insists that I cannot change.

She said it has been very hard to maintain NC but she is doing it. I told her that is great and she needs to keep doing it but it doesn't win her any medals in my book. I said she gets no brownie points for NOT having an affair. She asked what else she needs to do. I said communicate. If all she can do right now is continually point out my flaws, I will accept that as an improvement.

I talked about SIL again. SIL story bugged me all night. I asked how she could take advice from SIL – an adulterous woman in a 10 year affair. SIL said it was okay to maintain the affair because they were in love (see chat in other thread). According to SIL's logic, WW should run off with OM because they are in love too. How is it that SIL being in love can justify an affair but WW being in love cannot? I said SIL simply made no sense whatsoever.

WW said she wants to keep trying and does not want to separate. I agreed that we would keep trying but I was tired of doing 100 things right and having her only look for the one thing wrong. I was tired of her always looking for the negative. In my case, I was always looking for the positive. What is good about WW that wants me to keep this M? She looks for the bad in me to justify the A. Nobody can live up to her scrutiny. I said I was willing to change, accept her criticism and guidance and try to be a better person but that it was a two-way street. She had some work to do herself. I pointed out specific instances recently where I was very outgoing and established aquaintances in circumstances I never would have before. She said those were isolated instances and meant nothing. So even if I change, she is not going to give me credit for it.

Now it was late and I needed her to take me to the dentist so she did. We were quiet. She said Talk! Don't be so quiet. I asked what she wanted me to say. I said I still love you, does that help? I think it did.

We are playing golf in the afternoon. I think she went to IC this morning. Excuse my little departure. Communication seems to be the biggest issue on the table at the moment. I think we made significant progress. Hope so anyway.

I am still really tired. Maybe I do need AD.

Yesterday was not one of my prouder moments but, for some reason, these things all seem to turn out great up to the moment. Save your 2x4's because I won't read them. Seems like I am already in a fight with someone on another thread. I have enough battles to fight without picking more.

Anyway, that is where we are at the moment - not separated.

Oh, and Bigger, you really are getting soft <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

dewt,

How am I coercing WW into staying? I don't get that bit.

Oops I forgot. I will leave myself open for whacking on this but, at the very end of our conversation this AM, I asked WW a favor. I asked if we could agree to avoid SF for a while. I was just not enjoying it and it was awkward. She agreed it was okay.

I just left WW from the grocery store. She seems really happy. Things are much better than yesterday apparently and she has more IC scheduled.

I also left her with cash now for the first time in almost two months. She agreed she will still be accountable for all of it to prove none went to phone cards.

Believe it or not, I think she finally seems committed to NC for the first time ever. At least she is beginning to convince me.

And dewt, forget whatever I said before. Next time I see you, just try to keep from getting the "big hug". I was reading your posts to adrianc this AM. I was crying and smiling at the same time.

Traicionado,
I think you are doing good. Conversation has started. Keep trying to get 15 hours alone with her and if you talk fine and if you don't that's OK too.

I think this is progress. I also think ADs will help you. They will dumb the pain and let you think more clearly.

You need to be calm. It has been too long.

(((((((traicionado)))))))

By being such a cool dude, of course.

I didn't figure you were doing it now... I thought it was a topic that was developing. I probably rambled myself into non-relevancy. I tend to do that from time to time.

Yeah... I think I do that a lot. It's worse IRL where I don't have a backspace key.

I'm glad you're reading my posts to Adrian. It's so easy to lose perspective when you are right in the middle of everything.

Overall, it sounds like you and Gem are totally on the right track. I could find any reasons to pull out the th'ol 2x4s. Oh well.

Oh, stop worrying about the "can't change" stuff. Of course you can change, and of course she will notice the changes. And she will change too.

Ok... I need to drink more coffee before I type anymore.