Bigger,

Apparently, I share the trait with traicionado of reading whatever I want into your posts. Are you saying that traicionado should divorce before it is too late? Before he gets caught in a mousetrap of reconciliation? Or reconcile while he has the opportunity? Why do you think that he has the opportunity to reconcile?

At the moment I feel Traicionado is approaching his relationship in a semi-detached state. Sort of not caring how it goes. I do hope I am wrong.

Being prepared for any outcome is one thing. But going into something as serious as reconciliation with an “I really don’t care about the end-result” attitude is IMHO a sure way to not succeed. I truly believe that reconciliation is a serious thing and must be handled in a firm way. You have to have a goal, a method and commitment. I feel that now when Gemelia is showing great progress Traicionado should be doing all he can to encourage that progress.

That does include a lot of what CC46 says about being happy with himself and focusing on his own needs and requirements. But not at the expense of emotionally detaching from Gemelia. Let’s say they detach emotionally and Gemelia keeps on coming out of the fog. Lets say they are still married a year from now but emotionally detached. Would that be better or worse than being divorced? Would that be true reconciliation?

In a sense by detaching he has switched roles with his wife. While still concentrating on her future with OM she was detached from him. He worked hard to change that and now HE is detaching.

Why do I think reconciliation is an option for him? The recent posts from WW have shown remorse and acceptance of blame (intermingled with fog). Also the simple fact she is still there. There was some talk of her not respecting NC. I am certain that was a misunderstanding due to language.

Am I saying he should seek a divorce? No – not any more that I am telling him to reconcile. But I do think that he should commit to reconciliation or commit to divorce. There is very little middle ground allowed.

Todd, in your case you spent a lot of time undecided. Eventually you felt you had no option but to expose and move out on the same day. Had you decided earlier on to expose your situation would be different today. Not necessarily better – but different. I don’t see you in a bad position right now. You could still be living with your WW and she could still be seeing OM. That IMHO is worse than a divorce.

BIGGER--Thats exactly how I see Traicionado..he seems detached,I dont see too much passion in his recovery efforts.
I am a FWW and I liked, loved the passion that my husband put in recovering our marriage, what he thought he had lost. He got depressed,yes, but his efforts for recovering our love never decreased! You, either,like you said, commit fully with all your heart and soul and energy, or you dont!

Myrta,

I respect immensely Traicionado decision not to read his W posts here. I think that decision is paying dividends now as can been seen in her recent posts.

I do not think either of us is breaking any confidence when I ask you to confirm what I say about the tone in his WW posts: there is remorse and acceptance of blame. Her recent posts give more hope for the future than her original posts gave.

I think traicionado would say that he has been committed to R for several months. Detachment is a defense mechanism because, IMHO, he either can't or doesn't want to deal with the hurt and pain. I have been there and know exactly how it feels. He will come around. Sooner or later, he will huddle with himself and use that big brain of his to think his way out of numbness. Sort of like leading his peer group out of the cave.

Hopefully, he will not over analyze his situation... He is an engineer after all.

If nothing else, he will remember the grand thrashing he gave me about numbness and it will hit him like a verbal boomerang. I have never had any doubt that traicionado and gemela and their marriage will be fine. I don't have the advantage/disadvantage of reading gemela's thread. It would destroy any semblance of objectivity I have with traicionado. Besides, my Spanish is much too weak...

cc46, your post was excellent!

BIGGER- You are absolutely right, Gemela's attitude is changing very rapidly. She wants her marriage to work very much. I dont know if its a good thing or a bad thing that Traicionado does not read her thread. In my case, my husband and I read each other's threads at the beginning, it made us fight sometimes, but it helped us so much too. Because sometimes you dont dare to tell the BS or viceversa exactly how you feel or what you want.

Todd- Maybe you are right and he will snap out of his numbness "in time". I also think that their marriage has a lot of chance of survival, with the "right attitudes" from BOTH!

Stan-ley,

If you are still around, can you give me 3 or 4 examples of acceptable passion (without getting too personal)?

I am a bit stuck as to understanding exactly how this behavior is manifested.

cc46,

The 20 pills didn't really have too much effect. Tomorrow I will take only ten. Then I should be all caught up.

Bigger,

I thought we had this conversation a long time ago. It is not a simple grief. It is grief for the affair, for the betrayal and loss of confidence, loss of love, etc. Each one has its own grief timeline. I can't remember what I said about where I was on each one. I am at acceptance on the A. I know I am in depression on the loss of love. It was quite a good explanation I gave you before. Too bad I can't remember it any more.

ToddAC,

You know me about as well as anyone. You know I had a rough couple of days. I agree it is a defense mechanism ans I told you long ago. What is really killing me is the total lack of communication. Everyone agrees that is what we need to be doing - except gemela.

traicionado,

Not everyone. I think that the two of you remaining together with you showing Gemela that you love her is plenty. Communications will come their merry way with time.

The only wild card that concerns me, to be frank, is Gemela's twin. She is a bad example and MIL is giving her tacit blessing of twin’s sordid affair by living with her. Given the closeness that Gemela feels to her origin family, it would be easy for her currently impaired logic to believe that what is good for her twin must be good for her.

Of course, there is nothing you can do about this except perhaps expose to FIL. I would not recommend it at this point. Keep that powder dry.

Stan-ley,

If you are still around, can you give me 3 or 4 examples of acceptable passion (without getting too personal)?

Passion:

There were several stages:

1. Immediately after d-day I thought I had no choice but to divorce Myrta. IMHO, infidelity had to end in divorce. However, Myrta asked for forgiveness and wanted to make love to me right away

2. On day 2 (post d-day) I decided to stay married. This decision was easy because I still had the spy program on the computer and read how Myrta dumped OM without me asking her to do so.

3. By day 3 I became very attracted to Myrta and wanted to make love 24/7. For reasons that are not clear Myrta also became hyper-sexual and invited me to shower with her regularly (something we had not done in a long time).

4. We entered this bizarre hysterical bonding and that was the only thing that kept me from walking away. The bonding became the only drug that would make me calm. I told Myrta in a very clear manner that I loved her and that I wanted to forgive her.

5. As most WWs do Myrta eventually became depressed at 3-4 weeks past d-day and her libido went down. She also started to talk to OM behind my back to ease his pain, but later admitted she was also medicating her own withdrawal.

6. At this point I became very passionate about the issue of no contact. However, Myrta kept talking to OM sporadically. I must have asked her a 100 times and she denied it every time. Then I intercepted some emails OM wrote to a secret account that confirmed my suspicion. I was very passionate about NC and I talked to her about this on a daily basis and also sent her articles from MB via email. Initially Myrta thought MB was full of strange people.

7. At this point it was me doing all the talking about how to recover a marriage; how do deal with withdrawal; and how to reconnect at an emotional level. I must have sent her countless of articles about these issues. I was very passionate about reaching marital bliss and tried everything. However, I always said that she could leave me for OM and offered her that alternative. I even offered to take the fall for the divorce and to keep her affair a secret. I did not want to hurt my children by revealing the affair.

8. I even tried to behave like someone that was receptive to an open marriage. Within this context her sexual escapades could hurt less. However, that did not work.

9. I also realized that like most WP Myrta needed attention. Obviously I gave her a lot of attention and I am sure this was overwhelming to her. The strange thing is that every time she complained I was too intense I would back away and then she would complained I was not paying attention to her. On more than one occasion I proposed celibacy and as soon as I did that she would seek sex.

10 . Then she started to post and received a lot of info from "Just Learning" and the rest is history.

Traicionado..since, it seems, you prefer the oppinions of BSs over the FWWs, I will not post to you anymore.
But before I do that, I just want to tell you that you are not putting in consideration that I, like Gemela have a spanish background. You and her have different cultures, and whats passion for you, is not for her.
I am sure that what attracted you to her, was her "different" outlook or views to everything. It seems that NOw those differences in ethnicity are becoming more apparent.

Good luck to you and Gemela. I really wish you complete happiness with each other!

Sincerely

Myrta

Myrta,

I am not sure where I gave you that impression. Regardless, thanks for all the help you have been. I wanted Stan-ley's opinion because I am struggling trying to find out what is acceptable passion and what is not. Reading Stan-ley's post, I don't think I am any closer. Gemela clearly does not want SF. I am not sure what else I can do for passion. Stan-ley says he was passionate about NC. I have said if she breaks NC I will divorce her. That seems pretty passionate. People say to focus on me - not WW. How can I be passionate toward WW and not focus on her.

Bigger said not all mariages are meant to be. I guess that is right. WW used to love the fact that people thought she was so young. She does look younger than her age. In that sense, being with me fed that desire. I also look younger than my age but do look older than WW. I still think WW is going through some internal crisis. I think she is afraid of getting old - of losing her beauty. But that is just me.

You said I needed to be passionate. I just don't understand how that translates into action. Everything I do is the wrong thing. I can't see that she is any closer to leaving the OM behind than before. Either she is secretly contacting him or else she truly is in love and he really is her soulmate. Either way, it does not bode well for the marriage.

I have never wanted to stand in the way of gemela's happiness. Not since before we were married.

Traicionado, I'm still awake.

How are you doing?

traicionado.

It will be interesting to see how your attitude fares once the AD's kick in. At twenty per day, it shouldn't take long.

The difficult part of Plan A is knowing when progress is being made. It is like death by 1,000 cuts.

You have received some conflicting opinion but that is good. It presents you with options to consider or for you to devise your own.

Maybe at this juncture, you should take a MB break. Keeping ingesting the AD's and quit analyzing Gemela and your relationship so much. Go away from MB for a week. Ride the Harley. Run. Golf. Shovel sand. That could keep you busy for ages.

You have a good mind but right now it could be your worst enemy...

Traicionado...NO WWs want any sex at the beginning. I did not want to have sex with my husband, but I still did!! I got hypersexual for some time, like he said, then boom!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I did not want to do it anymore. My husband used to complain so much here in MB that I he wanted sex and I did not! Everyone here advised me that I should comply to his wishes, because he needed that for his recovery . Dont get discourage when Gemela seems not to be too much into it, she will eventually start feeling again.


Bigger is right, not all marriages survive affairs, and some are not meant to be. But before they come to that conclussion, I am sure they give the marriages a really good try, with all the energy and love they can muster.

About getting old, women dont like that idea, not only Gemela. Traicionado, I look very young for my age too, and of course I love that. But the time will come when it will be a different story. I am not ready for that yet either!
Internal crisis? she is just going thru withdrawal. It might never go away, but only time will tell that. I think she is doing much better now, than when she started to post. She seems much more focus on trying to save the marriage. I dont think she is contacting the OM at all! Maybe she is doing that for the wrong reasons, fear of losing the girls, maybe afraid of you sending her away, but I think she is true to her word saying she is in NC.

I really hope I had been of some help to you and your marriage, Traicionado.

Myrta,

First of all, whatever it was I posted that upset you, I am sorry for. If it is because I did not mention you in my list of names in the last post, it is because yours are the only ones I didn't have doubts about. You mentioned passion and I am just struggling to find the right balance.

Anyway, to answer your question, you probably more than anyone else have kept me motivated to continue R. I could go into a very detailed explanation of why but it would really not be much more than a compilation of many things I have already posted (if you or anyone else is interested, it might actually be of value for some other BS)- it is just now they are all coming together - compressed in time. Everyone has given my great advice and encouragement. You, being a FWW, have given me hope. You have shown me that it is possible.

I truly do hope you continue to post to my thread but will also understand if you don't.

Right now my only goal is to wait 17.3765 more days until the AD's kick in. I don't want to do anything drastic before then.

It has been roughly 2 months of NC. Let's see if that continues. It may be that our marriage is not meant to be. Time will tell. But from what I know of the OM, his way is gemela's destruction. If she gets over the OM and then decides to end the marriage, that will be a much better choice for all. I can't imagine what kind of life would be ahead for DD's if gemela runs off with this particular OM.

ToddAC,

Don't ever say anything bad about MIL again. I will track you down! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, the poor woman has limited choices. If I could bring her here I would. I can't get the residence visa for her. You have no idea how much she suffers and prays over SIL every single day. Seeing SIL in that relationship really hurts her - even after 10 years.

BTW, if you have sent me any emails to the normal email address, it seems the exchange server is down again for the long weekend. We have Saturday off as well for some holiday I don't understand.

Does FIL know Gemela's twin is shacked up with OM?

No question. He has been to their house. He has simply been told from day one that they are married. He got posted to Venezuela and a few months later SIL went to live with him there. Everyone was told they got married down there so he just accepted that as the truth.

I really don't see what it has to do with anything. I think SIL has little to do with this whole thing as long as she keeps her advice to herself. Since our last "chat", she has kept pretty quiet AFAIK.

I don't see what continued exposure will accomplish. The A is effectively stopped. What WW needs is time in NC. I need time in Plan A.

Well, traicionado, what it has to do with anything is that WW sees SIL living with a married man through hook and crook and given her feelings that her origin family is indeed her "family" it is pretty strong symbolism, at least it appears so to me.

So what is the solution? Expose SIL wayward ways. Yes it is drastic and I don't mean now. Did MIL participate in the coverup?

My you are in a funk aren't you???

ToddAC,

You have WAY too much free time. I see no benefit in ruining SIL's life. If her OM dumps her, her life is ruined already. If not, she played the odds and won. Good for her. Why bring misery to the life of her DD? MIL lives with SIL. If SIL goes down, MIL goes with her. You can't imagine how hard their life would be.

Personally I think SIL's life choice puts even more pressure on WW to "get it right". I think WW views herself as MIL's last hope. Just my opinion.

Maybe AD's will begin to work in 8 to 18 more days.

Traicionado...thank you for your words to me. What I want is for you to see some similar behaviours in your wife and I. When we are WWs there are a lot of similarities. She is going thru normal emotions. Its not an easy transition from going thru WW to FWW, but it can be done!

Two months of NC is a very short time, you have to give Gemela some more time to sort herself. She will, I am sure. She chose YOU as her husband some years ago, she found you interesting,attractive, that can happen again .

It will not be a good idea any more exposure for Gemela. Enough people know already, and she finished the affair. She is in NC, no need to expose. She will just resent you for it.

Traicionado..if its not meant to be, just the passing of time will tell. Bigger said it very well, some marriages are not meant to be", but a lot more are! So, you just have to have patience and wish to be one of the latter ones. You have patience and love her? no?

Taking ADs will be of "some" benefit I suppose, but sometimes medicating yourself in these kinds of cases, just fogs the mind and the normal feelings that you should be in.
My husband did not take anything, and he was sooooooooooooo down, so depressed, got so skinny. You have to try to be positive, optimistic, have faith in YOURSELF and in GOD!!

yOU CAN MAKE IT!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Use your analytical engineering mind !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes

Myrta