bump for Dazed...

HI Dazed,

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
PRAISE GOD!! And thank him for MB!! And the strength God has given you!!!



THAT.... my friend is an INCREDIBLE sign she is "re-committing" to the Marriage!!!

As MM said.... You will be in Harley's next book as an example of using MB principals to PERFECTION.....

GOD BLESS, GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS.... FRANK

SITREP Dazed.

In His arms.

Dazed,

How's the new "ride - share" doing?

Is the OM shadowing you now that he can see you and Mrs. Dazed going to her workplace?

Stay Strong Dazed!


Others:

I'll bite. What's SITREP?

Check out Dazed's new post on the Recovery board.

Military acronym...it means "Situation Report"

In His arms.

The last phone call with Jennifer did not go as planned or as I needed for that matter.
When she had called prior to the reschedule she said she wanted to speak with both of us together before giving advice so it was a team effort.

The call turned into a 1-1/2 long of which I got a rushed two minutes at the end. WW was exhausted and foggy as ever after the call. WW took no notes and did not want to talk to me much about the call.

I have no plan or any idea what the phone call consisted of. I have no idea what to do. When I mentioned RO to Jennifer she presented to WW as something we should do together as a result of OM contact. I feel All that did was scare WW into not telling me about contact.

How should I go get a restraining order that WW does not want and will not sign on for?
How do I get a PFS when WW will not sign on for that either?

WW was really fogged over last night telling me that she don't think she don't feel anything for me yet and she made the wrong choice.

I reminded her of how important NO CONTACT is the first thing that must happen for feelings to come back or us or anything to work.

I asked about contact and she would not talk anymore. I asked where the cell phone is and she would not answer.

I reinforced to her again that contact only resets the clock with us. I also told to not be scared to tell me about it and her feelings even if they are about him.

I don't know what to do right now... TODAY... I have not responded to her last email...

She sent me several more messages today...
here is...
________________________
Dazed,
i know i have hurt your feelings again-
do u wanna tell me what u r thinking
or how u r feeling?
Mrs.Dazed
____________________
MY REPLY

WW, I know you are confused and your feelings are mixed up. I believe you want it stop though. I think you want to get past feeling mixed up and confused. Don't you?

As long as you are totally open and honest with me I feel closer to you and trusting of you. Not angry. It may hurt me at times to hear what has happened or what you have felt or are feeling. It may hurt both of us at times to talk about things but it is SO IMPORTANT that we do it.
This is part of you and us healing together. Don't ever be afraid to share your thoughts with me... THANK YOU so much for asking for mine.

You may feel weird telling me your inner most thoughts even if at times they are about him. You can tell me about this and your thoughts. Know that you are not alone Jean....
Even if I don't like the fact you had a relationship and have mixed up feelings about another man, the fact it is real. I love you enough to get past that and help you do the same in order for us to have a relationship and marriage that we both want.
Dazed

____________________

Her Reply

Dazed,
well, but what do u think
about me thinking that im not
sure if i wanna make it work &
stuff like that? i kinda feel like
all the influence of everyone
telling me what to do & how I am
this bad person--maybe i didnt really do what i wanted..ya know?
Mrs.Dazed

_________________________

REPLY
Mrs.Dazed,
Do not think about working on anything between us right now. I am not ready for that and I am sure you are not either.

You mentioned yesterday about what is expected from you. There is nothing being expected right now. Like you said you have been doing your best to be friendly and positive. You have been doing a great job... Really you have.

I feel that no contact is the first thing that must happen. Nothing else is possible until that happens. Nothing!!

Remember some of the things Jennifer talked to you about.
I am willing to do what ever it takes to protect you from contact so you have a chance to begin healing.
Dazed
____________________
HER REPLY

I dont want tt Jennifer anymore-
i think it is a joke & a huge waste of
$$--if u wanna throw away 185 a time,
just put it in a sav. acct for DD12-
im not going to listen to that cult stuff anymore. maybe someday--but not now-- i cant see the point in throwing away all that cash for nothing--counselors are a joke they do not help & are a waste of money.
that is what i think.
why do u think I need" Healed?"---do u think i need a exorcism too...i am not sick or have cancer....

Well friend...it sounds to me like you're right back where you were...only now without the impending crisis of the divorce to force your WW to start thinking again.

What is the possibility of starting to set things up for you (and DD12) to move to another city? Let the wife know that you're moving and she's welcome to come. But that you're not willing to sit here and deal with this any longer.

Given your wife's track record to date, I'd bet money on it being a huge crisis right up until you're supposed to move. And bluntly, you should move, totally regardless of what she begs of you.

If she comes, then it's NC with OM...written in concrete. No secret cell phone, no NOTHING. If she gets a job, it's one that does not allow her to contact OM. If she doesn't come...plan B so dark that light cannot escape.

The only times your WW has come around is when she truly was faced with losing you...but nothing has happened to truly make her face that consequence. From my perspective, it's time for you to move on...either with or without WW. For your health and for you DD.

What would it take for you to start setting this up if it's an option?

OWL-
I can tell you are as upset with her as I am.
Obviously her last email was nothing more than fog babble with intent to draw me into an argument. So here is what i sent back to her.

"You are right."
That is all I could say right now. I am so pissed off right now. It is obvious that she is completely helpless and will not do anything to prevent contact or even believe there needs to be a plan.

I don't know what else to do or say right now.

On the moving part. Funny you ask. Just last week I started plans for selling the house. Met with an agent and had a market evaluation done. The house can go on the market as soon as next week.

Her job is hanging by nothing more than a thread. If she stayed there she may have a chance for another job in marketing. I could call a head hunter and a few freinds and have a job very quickly if needed.

I would do all this in a heart beat if I knew she would do anything to help her self.

She has sent me several more emails...Attached below.

Dazed,
hatever--i know u dont really agree w/ me.

Dazed,
so-u gonna cancel the calls w/ those people??


Should i even reply or just blow it off?

Your expectations are unrealistic...as I said on your thread on the Recovery board. First, if Jennifer took the whole time with her, then it was needed. Remember, you know all of this stuff...your WW does not. Jennifer and Steve are experts at this. I remember when Steve talked to my foggy wife. She said the same stuff yours did about it being crap and there was nothing wrong with her. Do you know what the key will be to her accepting this MB stuff? it will be how YOU handle things next. If you are willing to compromise with her, then she will believe in NONE of it! You will have to remain on message (which is what has gotten you to this point!). Stay on the same message you have, that Steve told her, that Jennifer told her. It doesnt matter what they think they believe in the fog. Remember, she thought the OM was such a great guy that she abandoned her morals and her family. And she has started realizing how wrong she has been!


Restraining order for you and your daughter and your house. Your wife can be included later! By having it, then it will be easier for her, as she will see you protecting yourself and daughter from the OM. And then she will begin to believe that you can do that for her also.


Until NC happens and withdrawal is over, then this will continue Dazed. Recovery is not possible until NC and withdrawal.


You do know what to do Dazed. You must protect her. you must continue to insist upon no contact. And you must continue your Plan A, but moving forward (with or without her). She is moving in your direction. As Lexxxy said on the other thread, you will have to walk the tight rope!


Dazed, first off...by reminding her of what Jennifer said, you are actually pushing her away from Jennifer. You are educating your wife. Not directly...but by continually saying "remember what Jennifer said." Last I checked, your mantra isnt "remember what Jennifer said." You have to stop educating her. No person wants to think horribly of themselves. She knows she is wrong. But she also needs to save face. That doesnt mean white wash it. It means just be quiet for awhile. Listen to her. Tell her you understand.

Why do you think she sent these text messages, Dazed? To have you tell her how wrong she is? To have her tell her what she should do? No. She knows all of that! She is looking for ONE PERSON in her life that isnt judging her, isnt telling her what to do. One person that is just listening! The OM isnt that person. That is why she is moving away from him.

But if you are doing the same as him (telling her to leave him, to have NC, telling her all the bad things about him, telling her how right things will be with you), then she will move away from you also. The OM is saying the same things...in reverse. So, now it is a battle of who she trusts.

Instead, what you need to do is just be there for her. Listen. Acknowledge her concerns. Here's how I would have answered one of those text messages. Mrs. dazed wrote:


My response: "Honey, you know what I am thinking. And I thank you for being concerned for my feelings. I still have an unshaken faith though...in the Lord and in our marriage."

Your response: Dazed...you were educating her!

Another one of her posts:


See what she said here? She is being pulled in all directions. Everyone telling her what to do.

My response: "Honey, I am not concerned about what anyone else says. I only care what you say and how you feel. And our daughter. I know this is extremely tough on you. I know you have a lot of doubts about everything. And if you want to tell me those doubts, I am here to listen."

Your response:
Do you see the difference. In yours, you were telling her what to do. In mine, I expressed how I felt, and then told her that I was there to listen.

Dazed, this is the next phase. You are going to have to believe that inside, she knows all of this stuff. You are going to have to be the best friend she has in this world right now. The person she can work all of this stuff out with. Where she can talk without you feeling hurt (or at least showing it). Some of it will hurt you. But right now, your opportunity lies in the fact that it is YOU that she wants to talk to.

Stop educating her. Stop telling her what to do or how to do it. A long time ago, in my single days, I learned that if you just keep asking questions of women, that they will want to be with you more. Here's what I mean.

Let's say you are trying to talk to a new lady and you come up to her and say "Hey, how are you doing?" And you start up a conversation. I nthe conversation, it will go something like this:

Her: So, where do you work?"
Me: "Oh, I'm in the military at Fort Wherever. What about you?"
Her: "Oh, I am a teacher."
Me: "Really? Where at?"
Her "I teach 5th grade at Blah Blah Elemementary School."
Me: "Wow. That must be a lot of fun."
Her: "Yeah, it is. Nerve wracking sometimes. But what about you? What do you do in the Army?"
Me: "Oh, I am in the infantry. You know, I remember my 5th grade teacher. I had a crush on her. Eleven year old boys can be a hand full, I imagine."
Her: "They sure are......."
And the conversation goes on.

Notice that I kept deflecting it back to her? Dazed, this is where you need to be with your wife. Just sit back and let her talk. Dont judge. She knows what she has done and is doing is wrong. She now has heard from everyone on how to deal with all of this.

But her addiction and feelings are still fogged. So, she needs to talk them thru. YOU be the guy she talks to. Okay?

In His arms.

I actually like this response! As is evidenced by her responses below.


You are pissed off because you expect the impossible! Your expectations of yoru wife are too high! I am not 2x4ing you...I did the same thing. But we BSs have a hard tiem grasping exactly what the fog does and how hard and painful it is to free oneself from it. We really do not fully understand their pain!


Dont say anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is VERY good!!


See? You have a plan!!


No. There you go again. YOU do what YOU believe is right for the family REGARDLESS of whether or not she wants to help herself.


No response is necessary right now. And when you do respond to this, it should be that she knows how you feel and that you will continue with the counseling and with moving your family forward. end of conversation.

You are the sane one! You are the leader! The troops dont get a say in this. Take charge and lead your family out of this. POJA will come when you are in recovery. Right now, only you get to make the big decisions. So make them!

In His arms.

I SO strongly agree with MM.

Take this approach: You are a train. DD is attached to you. You have a destination. (I REALLY like the idea of moving, BTW...) The train is leaving the station. She can either get on board or be left behind.

Have you read any of the threads on boundries? Make some decisions that will be best for your FAMILY (do not consider whether or not WW is part of that group).

For example, you may decide that one of your boundries to to eliminate OM from YOUR life. Obviously you cannot control what she does, but the message is that if she chooses to stay in contact with OM she is by choice losing you.

She's still not willing to make a choice.

As far as her latest e-mail
so-u gonna cancel the calls w/those people??

I would reply:
The purpose of us talking with Jennifer was to develop a plan to heal our marriage from the damage of your affair. Since you are obviously choosing to continue your affair, I agree that you are not ready to put our marriage first.

(I'd keep the appointment for YOURSELF as part of your personal healing and to hear Jennifer's view of your WW.)

Stop putting her needs and wishes ahead of yours and your daughters. Like MM said, lead your family.

What happens every time she starts sensing that she has pushed you too far?

Dazed,
I want to share something that my MC told me at one session. We were discussing the fact that though my H said the affair was over and that he had told OW we were working on our marriage, she kept calling and emailing him (he could not block her email as she was sending them over a work computer). This went on sporadically for 3 years by the way; not something that you want to hear about now. The problem being, as MC explained it, that even though H said it was over, every time he answered the phone and allowed her to say ANYTHING it was keeping alive her fantasy that although he was saying “no way” his actions were saying something else. It is very possible this is what the OM is thinking and getting his reassurance every time your wife answers the phone to tell him to go away.

If you want him to go, it is highly likely that you are going to have to take matters in your own hands and find a way to prevent him from contacting or coming near your ‘family’. It is obvious right now that your wife is in no position to do it, so you will have to take the lead.

MM, & LEXXXY-
Thank you for the proper perspective. I have also felt kind of weird myself. I guess I have not prepared so well for the next step or two in this process.

HELP WITH THIS:
I need some help answering the these latest messages from her. I have such a hard time with giving her direction that now I am kinda scared to offer any advice.

Email No.1 From Mrs. Dazed.

well, i am still struggling w/ my
weird feelings..i feel like i am still
not sure of what i am doing or why
i make the decisions i make & what prompts
me to do what i do....i am crazy..
i feel sad & confused....i know i am a mess.

Email No.2 from Mrs. Dazed

well, basically i am
wondering if i can go thru w/
being w/ u--& i am still having
feelings for the other--missing-
wondering-wondering if i made the right
choice--feeling sorry & bad 4 the other--
just feeling bad...like i am the devil.

Dazed,

First off...this is natural.So, please understand that this is the part of the "dance" where it is the tightrope that Lexxxy talked about.

Your response???

"Honey, I understand the confusion that you are talking about. I too have had some confusion during all of this. The Harleys have helped me greatly in finding my way through this and work through many of these issues.

I believe in us and our marriage and our future. While there is much I still dont know, I do know that we will have the marriage we wanted and deserve should we proceed forward and seek help from those that have dealt with this before.

I am here for you. As I said, I understand your confusion and your fears. All I an do is show you who I am now and ask you to join me. The answers you seek are inside you and I hope that you will continue to seek the counsel of those that have seen this before and have helped thousands to come through all of this whole and healthy. As they have helped me become the man I am now."

Notice I did not educate her. Notice I talked about me, and my changes. Notice I pointed her toward the experts (Steve and Jennifer). notice that I used words that told her that I understand her pain and her confusion.

Dazed...this is how you have to continue. remain on message, keep pointing her toward professional help. And most importantly, dont educate...just listen!! When she asks these questions, for you to nswer them with what to do will look like you are trying to be like the OM and manipulate her. Instead, you be different! You point her to the experts...and you just show her that you are there to hear her and understand her.

In His arms.

MM- Thank you so much... I replied before I got your reply... I do like your suggestion and will take that type of approach.. Just like you and Lex said, Listen, acknowlege, express my feelings, understand.. NO COACHING...
Thank you...

Here is my reply to her and then her reaction.. Pretty good I think..
_______________________
Mrs.Dazed
Sorry for the delay… I took 12pm lunch today and just got your message.
This is really hard isn’t it?
Among other things are you struggling with taking the no contact step? I know that must be really hard to do.
How much is guilt playing on you right now?
More later…
Dazed

___________________
Her reply
DAZED,
a lot. Im sad.--it's like, i know u r so sweet
& kind & understanding---& i just wonder & stuff
if we can get "that" back--u know....i guess i need u
to remind me again of all the craziness that went on...
u know...
Mrs. Dazed

__________________________

Mortarman - Lexxxy; comments please!

EXCELLENT RESPONSE!!!!!!!!!!! Which is why you got the response you did from her.

The response??

"Hey...it has been crazy, hasnt it??? Who would have guessed when we got married that we would have had these things happen? You know honey, I also wonder sometimes whether we will get it back. I believe we can. So much so that I am still here for you. Basically, all I can tell you is that the professionals who have seen this thousands of times have watched couples recover and actually grow from this. So I guess I believe that we can too. I mean...what's the alternative? To give up? I love you and our daughter way too much to do that. Anyway...thanks for sharing! Maybe a few years from now, we will look back on all these crazy times and laugh!!"

Again, no education there. I talked about how I feel, how the harleys have helped me see hope in our marriage. I acknowledged her feelings about things being crazy and even made it into a little joke.

See? Your wife is trying to surrender. She is no longer the enemy. She really does need your help. You are going to have to pull her close and let her grieve and work thru this. And yo uare going to have to protect her from the OM.

Which I again wonder why you have not gotten the order for you and your daughter. It would go a long way toward helping her feel safe with a man willing to protect her and her daughter.

Anyway...kid gloves with her right now.

In His arms.

If I could coach your wife, I would be focusing on her personal recovery.

That she needs to do the right things now so that she will be able to live with herself in the future. That she's not just working on the marriage for Dazed or for Daughter -- but more for herself than anyone else! She will never be able to recover her integrity and feel good about herself if she doesn't work on what she KNOWS is the right thing to do.

She's really caught up in herself right now. What she needs and what she wants. So my coaching to her would be about doing whats right so that the bad feelings she has about herself will go away.

Dazed, you're not the person to educate her, but just understand that she needs to do these things for HER, not for YOU and not for DD. You and DD will be the ones to reap the rewards of that, but you can't be the catalyst. Her feelings for you are too deeply buried.



I agree on the RO. You still need this!

And your instincts for this are good Dazed -- great job on your responses. You're eliminating the education, and that is really good!

---Any ideas how to reply to this.
Basically our divorce dismissal went public today and OM seen in and called WW and here is what she has told me when I asked how she was doing and what OM did to her today..


well, basically said i must not
care about him or his feelings-
if i did i would be on the phn. w/ the
atty. fixing all of this...said I need to
be out of my house tonight & I will
never go back home---said i am a liar-
I never cared & how could i treat pple
the way I do..I must have no heart. I just
like to ruin lives..I better be packed up tonight
if i wanna do what is right & what i should have done-
if i really care.---
uuugggg....
oh ya, & I am very materialistic too...