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I only have a couple of things to note:
1. Has anyone noticed LM is not responding?? He puts a thought provoking statement out there and just learns from it....brilliant!
2. I tend to agree with LM's approach. See I never really knew of my W's affair until after we divorced....so along with all of teh other crap I dealt with during our reconciliation a recovery was necessary. It was brutally hard. See we still went by the script!! And there was one time LM asked me why I would put up with that? Why was I subjecting myself to such a dishonest person....and it made me think...hard....but it really made me keep my line in the sand...and my approach is like that on here...
I will call a spade a spade...many BS's allow themselves to be trampled in the name of love. I have said it once and I will say it again...If my W was actively involved in an affair AFTER I exposed it we would be done....all over...that disrespect is unacceptable....in my life...and I feel pretty strongly that no one should subject themselves to it!
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JL said: My biggest issue is one of hope. That is very interesting. I think there was a time I would have made that comment. Right now, my biggest issue is one of personal responsibility . Without that self ownership, I don't "see" hope in these awful messes people make for themselves . Very interesting JL.... I think that's an excellent point. I think too many of us take on the responsibility of arguing others into doing what we see as best for them as if it were our responsibility to fix someone else's marriage. IMO, there would be fewer heated discussions ending in DJ's if more people embraced the concept of personal responsibility and drew clear lines between what they themselves are responsible for and what they are not. I know I hold myself responsible for communicating clearly and politely, but I don't hold myself responsible for making another person accept my advice. I suspect that when Lemonman writes a prescription for someone, he doesn't follow that person home to make sure the patient is taking the meds at prescribed intervals. At some point, responsibility stops. IMO, that point falls short of the point at which we are tempted to bring out the big guns.
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that I long ago stuffed under my monitor. They've helped me through my ordeal...
"The highest courage is to dare to be yourself in the face of adversity. Choosing right over wrong, ethic over convenience, and truth over popularity...these are choices that measure your life.
Travel the path of integrity without looking back, for there is never a wrong time to do the right thing." Ron, that is awesome!!! I shall print this out and write it across my very large mirror in my bathroom tonight!!! Thank you!!! And, LM, though I am fairly new here, I too, appreciate your honesty and direct approach. If you ever come across a post of mine, PLEASE be honest. I don't want to played or disillusioned.
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I only have a couple of things to note:
1. Has anyone noticed LM is not responding?? He puts a thought provoking statement out there and just learns from it....brilliant! LOL...nice Well, my lack of response to this thread is more based on rounding in the Surgical Intensive Care Unit all morning than sitting back and learning from everyones excellent thoughts. I haven't had time to look at any of this in detail....unfortunately. I did a quick view of the responses just now and I can appreciate many of the responses and thoughts (even if they are not what I would have said)....All points of view on this are good. I am very cool with that. What I think it boils down to for me though is that ....I need to "pick" and "choose" my spots better. I think I do have alot to contribute here, but I am going to be more selective in choosing when to say something. I think that works better for me and will hopefully for the board in it's entirety. Like I said, I posted a few times yesterday and ended up deleting before I even sent the responses....in hindsight I am glad that I did do that. For whatever reason (good or bad)...my thoughts and opinions seems to need "cleaning up" afterwards, and truthfully I don't have the desire to do that. That tells me something....I will figure it out. Thank you to all for the responses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LM
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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A few thoughts.. Unfortunately I feel the need to preface my posts to you, Lemonman, with a report that I am not UPSET. IMO, you seem to perceive me as being upset..when I do not perceive myself that way. I am INTENSE person even on my good days..even in real life..ANYWAYS... My first point is: I HAVE NOT HAD AN ISSUE WITH YOUR HONESTY. I believe in honesty, transparency and openness. I also agree with your belief in SELF-RESPECT. My issue has been what I PERCEIVED as name-calling directed towards. You remember the DELUSIONAL comment..we don't need to go there anymore.... Second point: I do not want you to leave this forum. That would be your choice. However, I think all of us has a SPECIAL PURPOSE here. This is the main issue that I want to address this morning. BSes are definitely TRAUMA VICTIMS. I continue to see myself that way although I am far along in my recovery. Listen to the new posters as they speak of their pain and devastation. I just can't buy the point of view that it is ENABLING to offer soothing and comfort to a person in extreme emotional pain. Yes there comes a point where it's time to stop whining. However, we have our individual differences based on our life histories and we can't be on the same time tables. So, even now, as you yourself have noted, Lemonman, I AM SENSITIVE and I FEEL PAINED especially when there are triggers and I have a number of them. I think we need to be sensistive to the fact that BSes have suffered a MAJOR TRAUMA. Steve Harley specifically told me that he believes that the TRAUMA of INFIDELITY IS WORSE THAN THE EXPERIENCE OF INCEST. It is an ULTIMATE, LIFE-ALTERING BETRAYAL that none of us will ever truly GET OVER, I think. I do not consider sensitivity regarding this issue to be ENABLING. If you meet a RAPE VICTIM, I wouldn't consider it helpful to say.."GET OVER IT..STOP CRYING ABOUT THIS or whatever"... For me, it's HONEST and OPEN for me to express my disagreement with you, Lemonman. That does not mean that I don't want you on the forum or don't want you to express your opinions here. Actually, YOU'VE HELP ME WITH MY FLIGHT OR FIGHT TENDENCY. I hang on there with you and stand my ground without fleeing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Mimi: I get ya here...no prefaces needed on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> LM
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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Lemonman,
Sometimes, what you call the truth/fact....is really just YOUR truth and your opinion.
But if we're going to talk about "playing"....well I'm beginning to feel "played" by you. This is not the first time that you've threatened or implied that you were leaving the board....only to resurface with a post like this one. It smacks of needing to hear people tell you to stay. Starfish: Interesting thoughts...some good things to think about. For the record, I know my motivation in posting this thread was not so people could say "Please Lemonman post".....come on...but I do understand how that implicationthat. I think I am probably "guilty as charged" with stating my opinions as fact....I kind of never even gave that a second thought...BUT, certainly you could have something valid with that point. Some good food for thought. Lem
Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.
I had the right to remain silent.......but I didn't have the ability.
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Sandi520
I agree with your position.
Worked for us. 10 year recovery.
Pep Thanks Pep. Others are right in that my "approach" wouldn't work for everyone, but it was the right decision for me to make at the time. I think that sometimes, those in affairs think they won't get caught, won't be put in the position to choose, so they continue, and I dispelled that thought process rather quickly. It was never about giving him an ultimatum, it was about defining what I would put up with and what I wouldn't, and about his facing the choice, whatever that was that he had to make. I in no way attempted to make it for him or to sway his choice, I just put that old personal responsibility right back in his lap where it belonged in the first place. I'm not saying that we hadn't both made mistakes in the marriage, of course we did, but we all exercise free will and I was exercising mine in not putting up with his affair.
WH's affair, late 1998-9 years post discovery
mom to 4 kids (2 post affair)
Solidly recovered marriage that we both are proud of.
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Sandi
You and I are reading from the same page.
Pep
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Post deleted by Cherished
Last edited by Cherished; 03/28/06 10:09 PM.
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I'm not sure Lemonman agrees with the addiction theory, though.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Post deleted by Cherished
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Hey there Lem ---
Just chiming in to say that I am glad you are posting again -- This board needs you!
Take Care!
Kim
D-Day May 14th, 2005
Married 16 Years
DS age 8
6 months Plan A
Plan B 10-11-05, H moved back in June 2007, Very False Recovery.
2nd Day-Day 7/7/08 Kicked WH Out.
Plan B for my sanity
"Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things." Robert Brault
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LM, As I've said before, it's all in the delivery. I don't want the PC response, but I do want it in a respectful manner. There were times when I would lurk or post here, my life truly hanging by a thread. Sometimes I was sooo raw and vulnerable that a flippant response could sting so badly I would close my mind to the message. Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Me/BS 48
Married 16 yrs/together 23; 1 child
Dday 4/05; WH "needed space" and left 5/05
WH Filed D papers 6/05 - Divorce final 12/05
WH moved in with OW 11/05; moved out OW 1/06
12/06 His 3rd and strongest attempt at reconcilliation (I believe OW still in picture)
2/07 Affair over, begging me to take him back - it's too late.
WH has tried numerous times to reconcile.
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What is a PC response, anyway?
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Lemonman,
Sometimes, what you call the truth/fact....is really just YOUR truth and your opinion.
But if we're going to talk about "playing"....well I'm beginning to feel "played" by you. This is not the first time that you've threatened or implied that you were leaving the board....only to resurface with a post like this one. It smacks of needing to hear people tell you to stay. Starfish: Interesting thoughts...some good things to think about. For the record, I know my motivation in posting this thread was not so people could say "Please Lemonman post".....come on...but I do understand how that implicationthat. I think I am probably "guilty as charged" with stating my opinions as fact....I kind of never even gave that a second thought...BUT, certainly you could have something valid with that point. Some good food for thought. Lem Awwhhh Sourman, u know this type of charge was bound to come up sooner or later. I remember I received a post years ago where someone said that I posted like I thought I was always right. Geeze.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Couldn't be farther from the truth. Turns out it was from a very angry BS. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> So just tell 'em Lemon, just like it is. Why? Because we each control what we read and we each control how we react. If we get mad about something we read, that's because it is our choice to get angry. If the poster is just posting their opinion, they can. Now if their opinion violates the rights of others (i.e. the terrorists), then some sort of action w/b involed but words on a thread are not. So we should take the good and discard the bad. When we do that, what's left t/b mad about? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> take care, L.
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Hi LM
IME people exposit opinions and they expect others to AGREE with them, not just be kind about them on these boards. When people's opinions are forcefully disagreed with or worse, demosntrated to be incorrect some people's sensitivity to 'rudeness' increases enormously presumably out of embarassment.
IMO being 'kind' about a persons incorrect and even dangerous opinions is the worst kind of condescension. "thats nice dear". This is not an everyday net boards, we shoul dall be acquiainted iwth the 'best practices' of Marriegbulders, or at least be open to learning about them, else why are we here? Drs Harley & Chalmers are not cult leaders or 'psych pimps' but are experiences relactionship aounsellors with THOUSANDS of saved marriages behind them. It is perfectly ok on the Harleys MB forum to asess a statement, opinion or advice against the MB template and point out if it seems cockeyed. And , like any other discussion forum in the universe, we are allowed to offer our own experiences of course, but why would we offer them other than to have them discussed or critiqued ?
When a person avocates actions that are contrary to those which Harley espouses and that have been proven to fail in sit after sit, it is a kindness to point out to that person why the opinion is wrong IMO. Politely, if possible, sure.
I was advised very forthrightly not to expose, not to plan A, not to police my own personal boundaries and in fact not to bother at all with trying to save my marriage....over the months. The very things that have probably saved my marriage. Some of the same wise heads who have been slated recently or their combative attitude dismissed such talk, grabbed me by the collar and dragged me to doing the right thing. Was I p1ssed at the time ? Heck yes, but I learned RIGHT FAST.
LM your view is MOST welcome here, and such is NEEED in fact. I respect the fact that your responses can be vehement, but you need a tougher skin, when you get vehemence back. Stay, help learn mate.
MB Alumni
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