Just mentioning that alliteration in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing!

anywho ... the following is written by Mr Wondering .... and I liked it too much to have it buried on another thread

here 'tis:

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To the Foggy;
Foggy is not a bad word. It's merely an assesment by those that have come before you of your current position. I've been foggy, Mrs. Wonderings has been foggy...almost everyone here has been foggy at one point or another dealing with this mess. The term is thrown around here quite often as a way to say "come on, think about what you are saying/arguing...you are so close to processing this and you just refuse". We also want to make clear to newbies that your advice, statements, arguments, questions should be, in our opinions "caveated" (if thats a word) and/or disregarded as your perspective is not YET in alignment with the principles here on MB.
We are not condemning you to a lifetime of fogginess (though I am certain some remain there). We are hopeful that your perspective will change and become more healthy. By sticking around and continuing with these debates seeds of clarity ARE certainly being planted. So keep going but try not to take offense to us so easily for one day you will be us, no kidding. We are thankful MB has provided the forum for your (and our) development as we ALL put our minds around this momentus event that occured in all our lives. MB, really is the best infidelity recovery program known today. I don't think I could improve it and I really don't see how one fresh out of an affair could even conceive of improving it, but I understand how the fogginess makes one try.
When Mrs. Wondering and I first arrived (I read first but she initiated us posting), she and I both poked fun at the cult like attitudes that were being presented to us. We too thought some of the methods were being portrayed to rigidly and were QUESTIONABLE, to say the least. We thought we could swath our own path. We WERE foggy then so we completely understand and SEE where you all are coming from now. No worries, we love ya anyway.
On the other hand, I have a sneeking suspicion that 1 or more of you may be other than you say you are. Celt, in particular, strikes me as potentially a full blown WS, a WS that is now divorced or an OP. Come on, a year recovered BS that thinks exposure is a bad thing, continual posts on every exposure thread here debating intricacies which are quite clear and is proud of the fact he "saved" his wife's reputation by not exposing her affair. I'm a BS that didn't expose and "saved" my wifes reputation but WE (the Mrs. and I) see absolutely clearly I should have exposed at least to her parents and the single OM's family. It would likely have cut weeks off her 3 month affair. Accordingly, we now consistently encourage others to do FULL exposure in accordance with MB principles. In my opinion, Celt's posts appear specifically designed to stir the pot, distract us from our intended purpose (of helping real couples afflicted by infidelty), play on newbie BS fears, and pointedly attack Melody Lane as she IS one of the many but perhaps the most outspoken "affair buster" superhero. I don't know if this is a concerted organized attack on MB or a personal vendetta against Melody Lane and/or MB...but I suspect it, nonetheless. Sfjaj, a few others and even you Cookie I suspect. Not an accusation, just a suspicion. But then again, I am a conspiracist. I'd investigate myself if I thought I'd find anything.
On the other hand, we have recently had a handful of WW's show up. Last June when I arrived I only saw a few WW's regularly posting and when a new WW arrived they were usually an island of dissent/fogginess and rarely got support and thus rarely swam against the stream for long on the board. However, with so many arriving at nearly the same time the foggy have been recently embolden to post their opinions and advice regardless of the fact they are mistaken and contrary to solid MB principles. Notice I am not saying they are wrong, IMO they are just not of the proper perspective YET to internalize the brillance of the MB program and ALL its components so they question the PROFESSIONALLY designed, TRIED and TESTED narrow MB path. It doesn't help that they have since been told that their "opinions" no matter how fogged out are somehow valuable and should be respected. I guess we all do really in essence respect the opinion; but, recognize and point it out for what it is, foggy, so that newbies are hopefully not distracted. We respect the foggy individuals as what they are and as they post here PROCESSING what they need to process to become healthy again, whether individually, as a marital partner or as a divorcee. We all are here rooting for you all to fully get it.
BTW, we are still foggy ouyselves on some issues including in particular conflict avoidance. We are trying to learn and get better but its tough to break old engrained habits. The difference is, I would not begin to tell, question or advise people, how to address their conflict avoidance issues, let alone in opposition to the stated professional principles, until I had at least got a handle on my own.
Foggy is NOT a put down, it's who you are and who I am. I believe us to be at differing levels of fogginess, but, I guess, thats just my opinion. I wish you all a succesful journey...we really do want to see you on the other side of these arguments and healthy/healthier one day.
Mr. Wondering
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FBH(me)-38 FWW-36 DD-Age 6
Dday-April 2005 Recovered
email - the_wonderings@yahoo.com
Pep's - Carrot & Stick of Plan A
"You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice...She's running to stand still" U2 - Joshua Tree

A concerted attack on ML????? If you read past threads, it was ML who told me I couldn't express any disagreement...puleeze!!!

bumping for the fun of it

Why the egos? Why does everyone always think it is about them - because it has been in the past? I see this as a general attitude of MANY not just one or two, on the boards these days...it's why I dont come around much anymore...sad - cause I would love to help more FWW's - the MB way - but most FWW's coming there these days want to do it their way...

There are other boards for that - this is for the MB way......and this way does work....even in the beginning if it feel like you are being crapped on as the FWW....it gets much better....and the marriage gets better - but you cant try to do it your way - if you want to - then instead of getting mad at everyone here - go to a board that isn't ABOUT MARRAIGE BUILDER TECHNIQUES!

just my 2cents.

and I just want to see everyone - newbies, oldies, fogged out, enablers - stop making it about themselves - everyone things everyone is refering to someone...when really I read them ALL is GENERAL OBSERVATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't save marriages with such LARGE EGOS!

Mr. W's words are clear and unambiguous. But I’d like to add my own two cents worth. I support MB principles and the precepts expressed by Dr. Willard Harley for one reason, and one reason only. They work. The alternatives do not.

Let’s face it. Wayward spouses who haven't dealt with the harsh reality of their adultery and been in recovery for a substantial period really don't have a valid frame of reference from which they can legitimately comment on the issue. Unfortunately (to paraphrase a long-time MB poster), these still-foggy wayward ones don't get it...and they don't get that they don't get it.

However, it’s not worth my time trying to convince them they are wrong. They can’t be swayed by logic. That’s one of the things that mark their fogginess. Actually, those opposed to MB principles have a vested interest in not exposing their own seamy, deceitful, adulterous activities. They argue long and hard that “sometimes” exposure is counterproductive. Coincidently, of course, their circumstance is one where exposure wouldn’t have worked to end the adultery sooner or more certainly. Curious how that works huh? There’s no convincing those folks. Hey, they might actually succeed in restoring their marriages. I hope they do get through this overwhelmingly destructive event in their lives with their marriage intact.

But the truth is, the narrow window of opportunity to save a marriage Dr. Harley talks about becomes vanishingly small when applying only those MarriageBuilder principles one agrees with. Good luck to those wayward spouses who argue against exposure, and the betrayed spouses who are cooperating with them. They will need all the luck they can get.

The real difficulty I see here is that newly betrayed spouses (and wayward ones too) just coming to MB will get the wrong idea. They see too much from foggy wayward spouses promoting non-disclosure of the adultery. New arrivals may not see they need to read all that Dr. Harley has written on exposure, Plan A, and Plan B.

Actually, he’s been crystal clear on exposure. If the affair is ongoing, you expose, period. Dr. Harley has explicitly said exposure should be made to family (including the children), to the work place, to priests and pastors, to friends, etc. In short, expose to anyone who can pressure the adulterous pair to stop the sordid, ugly little adultery. What’s so hard to understand about that? It works. It means there are many people watching to help ensure non-contact with an adulterous partner instead of just the eyes belonging to the betrayed spouse or spouses. Exposure shines an unsympathetic light on the foulness, the lies, and the deceit. It isn’t fun; it makes the adulterer face the unpleasantness head on and that’s incredibly distasteful for them. But, it ends the adultery in most cases right then and there. Again, it just flat works.

To those new folks just coming in, please ignore the naysayers. The path they advocate has not been proven. Rather, it has been disproven too many times. You’ll find personal accounts from betrayed and wayward spouses on any number of threads out here testifying to the effectiveness of exposure…and you’ll find posts from those who wish they had exposed or done so more fully. Being ashamed to expose your spouse’s adultery, or being kind and wanting your spouse to maintain the lie of a good reputation, are non-productive strategies. Non-exposure just doesn’t work and it will lead you down into a spiral of increasing discord in your marriage. Without exposing it, by keeping it close to your breast, you let the beast eat away at your insides and destroy you…and your marriage.

Let me end by saying this is MarriageBuilders.com. The website is here to promote the precepts Dr. Harley has refined through many years of counseling couples with the specter of a betrayal hanging over their heads. Follow Dr. Harley’s advice, call for personal counseling if you can, and apply all that you learn here. The alternative is a harsh dissolution of your marriage and devastation in your life, the lives of your extended family, and your children’s lives.

Stay here and work with the pros who post here regularly. They’ve gone through what you’re facing now. There are former betrayed spouses…and former wayward spouses here who can give you chapter and verse on how they recovered their lives and their marriages using MB concepts. Listen to them, okay? They’re here to help you and they’ll coach you through this most difficult period.

If anything, I'd like to congratulate you because this is one FWS who will need to get help in recovery elsewhere because of a few vocal, judgmental rigid people who can't see beyond their own personal pain..that is the true "fog."

You know wherever you run...that's where you'll be. You really would merely be "running to stand still".

You know on the other thread you just repeated me. Last spring we too said this place was cult-like, we dismissed the narrowness of the recommended plan and Mrs. Wondering said, as I know you are aware but I'll repeat..."there's more than one way to skin a cat".

Sfjaj...I can almost feel you processing all this information. You may be so close to taking a big big step in your recovery if you just listen, think and discontinue resisting. There is an essence of faith in your marriage, in recovery and in the MB plan. No matter what your religious beliefs are, God IS at work on this site.

Your husband knows what we mean. He's likely doing as he should and "playing on your team" but he knows or will know what we are talking about if he reads here long enough. Invite him in...this place is sooo much better for you both if you both participate.

BTW, I'm still suspicious of ya, but perhaps less so.

Mr. Wondering

Oh please, no one has told you you can't "express disagreement." That is ALL YOU DO HERE. Quit the drama queen act. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Is this your "judgement?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />