(sorry, this is long, and kinda all over the place)

Also, this has been posted to another board. I just need all the advice I can get <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well, I need some serious advice. W and I have been married for 11 years. We have two daughters, 6 and 11. We are currently having serious marriage problems. About 1 month ago W started acting strange, distant, etc. I had been really grumpy the last few days (complaining that the house was not clean, making rude comments, etc, being a [censored] basically), and she said it made feelings come back that she had 4 years ago.

Let me explain 4 years ago real quick. For 1.5 years, we were kinda having problems. W would always talk to guys on the internet, and I was extremely jealous. Well, she got fed up with me. Said I worked too much, didn't appreciate her, etc . So she left for one week. Later I found out it was to sleep with someone she met online. Well, 1 month later she moved out to her parents, took the kids, and I was devastated. We were separated for about 2 months. I was doing all the wrong stuff. Begging, asking why, telling her OM was a dork (I actually knew him from before, but W didn't, which is really strange, but I won't try and figure that out). Of course she was telling me it's over, she loves him, doesn't love me anymore, hates me actually. Well, eventually, I got tired, and weak, and decided to do some online dating. I met someone, W fund out, and all of a sudden W wanted to come back to me. After a lot of crying on the phone, and acting like we first met (it was really awesome), we got back together. The next 4 years were really good. Some ups/downs, but good. W had 2 miscarriages, and I think that really devastated her. Then we bought a big house, and were happy again.

Fast forward to today. I know this is wrong, but I knew something wasn't right. I had a feeling she was talking to someone else. And she wantted to stay at a hotel for a day to "get away from me and the kids". I knew something was wrong, but I wanted to trust her. The hotel was 5 min away for christs sake! Well, eventually I couldn't handle it anymore. I put a AOL sniffer on the network. And I found out she HAD been talking to the guy I suspected. An online friend in a game. Saying things like "I can make my H move out, get rid of the kids for a weekend, and you can have me". "I love you so much", etc. It killed me to read that. I confronted her, and she broke down, eventually telling me, that yes, she did sleep with him at the hotel. I about had a nervous breakdown. I just found this out 2 days ago. They had only been talking for a week before they had sex <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

For the last month, I have been really screwing up. Accusing her of talking to someone (I was right), and she flatly denied it, saying I was "crazy", and if I kept saying that, she WOULD cheat on me. Well, at this point, she had already slept with him! Who is this women? I don't even know her, it's like aliens abducted her. I have also been crying, begging her not to leave, etc. There are no more ILY's between either of us (she stopped first cold turkey 1 month ago overnight). And the last 2 weeks, I have gotten a lot better at not talking about R, unless she wants to.

Mind you, this whole time, she says it's ok to cuddle with her, because we are best friends, and she can tell me anything, and that she still feels comfortable with me, and does still love me. She is just not totally "in love", but "kinda in love", she's been saying. We've had no sex since 1 month ago when the B dropped.

1 week ago she was in the bath, and called me in there. Asked me to help wash her hair, scratch her head, etc. She started crying, and says she feels like ****** for doing this to me, because I've been so nice in the last 2 weeks, doing things for her, trying to fix all the things she's been complaining about. She told me she is very confused, and doesn't know what she wants (I still didn't know about affair). She told me she wishes she could just die sometimes.

Ok, 2 days ago, when I found about the affair, I went crazy. Told her mom, and they are freaking out now, kinda mad at her. W felt REALLY bad, held me while I cried, and cried herself. She said she didn't know why she did it, but she wants to know what it would be like to be with someone who respected her, and this guy is nice to her, and is gentle, etc. She says I'm not like that (until lately, but she thinks it's an act). That day, we were really nice, she said she would refrain from talking to him, and we could just see what happens over the next week. We were laughing all day, playing games, and went out to eat. Well, yesterday, we got into a huge argument, because I still had not deleted the keylogger. Well I finally did, and erased all the logs, etc. During this time, she got a knife, and put it to her wrist, and then got a bottle of pills, and threatened to take them. I eventually calmed her down, and we were very nice again.

Here is the weird part. Last night, she asked me if it would be weird if she flew up to where he was, to see him for 3 days. No sex, no ILY's, nothing. Just to see what he was like. I told her no, I have boundries, and that she would need to pick one or the other. She then said she'd have to pick "no one", and try to find happiness by herself. Well, after the fight yesterday, I couldn't stand to see her so sad, so I reluctantly agreed to let her fly up. CRAZY AREN'T I?!?!?! Did I REALLY screw up? Shouldn't I try to bust up the affair? I don't know where I got the energy, but I told her "I would hurt, to let her find happiness". And she even told OM this, how nice I was to even say that (is this a good thing?). She said it's totally possible for her to go up there, see that he is a weirdo, and come back and work things out. I figured this was a risk I had to take, so guess what, I dopped her off at the airport this morning!! I know this is crazy, am I doing the wrong thing? She offered to call me 2-3 times a day to check in, etc, let me know how she's doing. She already just called to say she landed.

What the ****** is going on here? Are we nuts to even be able to do this, and still be best friends about it?

Also, last night, I couldn't help it, and I started to get frisky with her. I eventually made her very happy (if you know what I mean). When she finished, she started crying, and said she is "really confused now", and I asked "did I worsen my chances", and she said "no". Is this a good sign?

Anyhow, let me know what I should do next, like when she returns on Sunday. Let me know how crazy I am for being ok with her doing this, etc. Please help, I'm losing it, and would give the world to make her want to be with ME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and last night, and this morning, we cuddled all night. She cuddled with me, held my hand while sleeping, etc. Said "Baby, wake up", before I took her to the airport (she hadn't used baby for the last month). Is she testing me out, before she tests OM out? This just seems so weird, but if she wants to cuddle, I cannot resist, because I love her so much, and it feels good to be in her arms...

For right now, I would love to hear some advice for how to act when she calls tonight, tomorrow, etc. And how to act when W gets home. We made an arrangement so that when W came back, she would give me the same time that she gave OM, to try and work things out. She agreed. How should I act during this time?

I think you enjoy drama

it turns you on

"I think you enjoy drama"

Please tell me this is a joke, or a spammer. I want my W back, and would do anything. I do not like drama at all. This whole thing is killing me, and I've been crying myself to sleep each night. If it were up to me, I'd wake up from this nightmare, and have it all go away forever.

How do you expect people to react, JL? Your wife is an admitted serial cheater and you are actively assisting her with this one. What do you want us to do? You write a summary filled with dramatic words and questions, but you aren't doing anything to stop the obscenity.

Come on. Your wife was nice to you the past week or so because she didn't want you to upset her cute little plans to expand and continue her affair. She cuddled with you last night so you wouldn’t think about what she’s going to be doing this weekend. For Pete’s sake! What the heck did you think she was doing?

Look, you're allowing your wife to fly off somewhere to continue her affair for a nice three-day adultery weekend getaway. You didn’t say so, but I’ll bet you even paid for the ticket, didn’t you? Why? You know she's lied to you over and over, yet you believe there won't be any sex or anything. Excuse me? Exactly what do you think they're going to be doing for the next three days?

JL, folks out here know a marriage can't be saved if one partner is letting the other spouse indulge themselves in inappropriate conduct. Frankly, there's no one out here who can help you if you won't help yourself by establishing a boundary and standing by it. Put another way, a second infidelity is nearly impossible to recover from anyway. If you aren’t going to do anything to stop it, there’s no chance at all.

And, for your information, Pepper is one of the most experienced of MB members and has helped many, many people recover their marriages through the use of MB principles.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from. I've been a doormat, and I know it. I just don't know how to undue this huge mistake I made by saying she could go. No, I did not pay for the ticket. OM did.

I just need to know how to act once she gets back. I want to just throw in the towel, and say I'm filing for divorce, because I wouldn't treat my worst enemy the same way she is treaing me right now. But... I love her so much, that even after all this, I still think there is hope. I know it sounds crazy, but I do want to work on it, and do the right things. That's why I came here, to get a nice scolding, and let people tell me what I'm doing wrong, then try to get on the right path.

So, given all you know, if any of you were in my position, and still wanted to work on it, what would you do when she called, and what would you do when she got home?

Read everything on this site about how affairs start, plan A, emotional needs, etc. All the resources are here for you.

Tell us what your plan is and we'll help you with it. You've got all weekend to work on it.

jl,

First and foremost you will NEVER have a good marriage with the following attitude.
Being a doormat NEVER works. You already know that when she left for two months to have her previousl affairs and you started to date.

Frankly, you should NOT have an sexual relations with her until she submits to you a signed doctors certificate showing she is free of STD's and particularly HIV. You risk your life and your family if you have sex with this woman.

Next, you need a backbone, and hopefully reading here will allow you to find out how to graft one into the proper spot.

Finally, I must ask you "What do you think a marriage is?" It is NOT being manipulated into allowing your W to fly off and screw some other guy. It is not being a doormat, it is not many things, but what do you think it is?

Until you become someone YOU can respect, she will never respect you, and frankly I have no clue why you would respect HER.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Well, the plan is to currently try and save the M. When me and my W look at each other, I can still see love in her eyes. She even says she still loves me. She is just worried I will go back to my old ways.

I'm looking at it like this. I W is the type to continue to have EA/PA's, then I will probably want out. I just want to make sure W is not crying out for attention, like she was 4 years ago. I just want to try and save it for as long as I think I can handle, and if it doesn't work, I can say I at least tried, and walk away with no guilt.

Has our marriage been boring for the last year? Of course it has. And I'm worried this is why she went out to have a EA. She even told me it started out as her flirting with him, and she said she told OM that she would never leave me, and loves me a lot, but wanted to have some fun. And we are where we are at now 1 month later.

The poster who said I was looking for drama, is so wrong. If they are referring to the fact that I can talk to my W about OM, I just want you all to understand how much pain I go through when I do this. But the reason I was doing it, was because I was getting positive results from her, being her friend through this, making her laugh. From now on though, I will tell her I want to hear nothing more of OM, and that I would ask she no longer talk to him.

When W gets back, I am going to grow some balls, and be firm on each decision from now on. I've been on plan A for about 1 month. I'll try plan A for another month or so, then switch to plan B if W still refuses to stop talking to OM.

I would suggest that the both of you be tested for STD's. More importantly it is clear that your wife has little respect for you and your marriage. After her last affair, she is now going to fly off for a couple of days to be with the OM and you say it is all right? If the roles were reversed, do you think your wife would have said it is O.K. to go and fly away for a few days to screw a woman you met on the internet right after a previous affair? It is bad enough that your wife has no respect for you but you have no respect for yourself? If you don't respect yourself then who will? You are a complete doormat and there is nothing attractive about being a doormat. Your wife has the best of both worlds. She has a husband who is trying to make her happy and accepting of anything that she does; and she is allowed to go off again and screw another guy for a couple of days with your blessing? Are you out of your freaking mind?

I would strongly suggest that you inform her that you have changed your mind and that this behavior is unacceptable. You then proceed to tell him that if she does go you will immediately contact a lawyer and end this farce of a marriage. Are you going to wait until she gives you an STD? She is manipulating you and you are easily manipulated. The only person that can help you is you. Either you stand up for yourself and show your self-respect and set clear boundaries; or stay home and cry for the 3 days your wife has left to go screw another guy she met on the internet. If you allow this then is is certainly no surprise that your wife sees you as weak and helpless. Again if the roles were reversed, would she put up with such humiliaion and disrespect from you? You judge a person by their actions and not by their words. Her actions speaks volumes and unfortunately so does yours.

jl

You said
Yeah the results were so positive that she flew off to be with OM. You are kidding yourself here. She did this 4 years ago, and she has not learned a thing.

You MUST realize that whether you are a great H or the worst H put on this planet, the affairs are HER decision, and they are HER fault. She should have divorced your A$$ if she felt you were that bad of a husband. She did not because clearly you meet the needs she has until she wants to have sex with another man.

I and others are being very very hard on your for a reason. Until you see the reality of your marriage, you have no hope of ever being happy. You run the risk of your children being orphans via an STD, you clearly have no respect for yourself.

Take you posts and read them to someone you know and see what they say. Read them to her parents or yours, or your siblings or your minister. Get their feedback. You won't because you know they will see what we see. You need to call her and tell her to get her fanny on the first plane back or she can find somewhere else to live when she gets back, that would be plan B my friend.

She is a serial cheater, and therefore there is less chance for your marriage. You have allowed her affair to continue, and that guarantees that she feels little respect for you. What would your children think of you if they knew.

Time to get that backbone implant jl and start setting boundaries consistent with your feelings and beliefs about marriage.

God Bless,

JL

jlost - at least you are here asking questions - so for that, I give you credit. But seriously, take the advice you have been given so far.

You can't start recovery till the A is over. Expose. (did you really read plan A?)

Sounds to me you need to take a little trip of your own. It's only fair right? Let her believe there is someone you are going to visit. She needs a taste of her own medicine "again". After she is unable to cope with the idea of you going off for your little A. Tell her fine I won't go. But things are going to change. Hopefully for more than the next 4 years.

Also I see one common thread here "The Computer"

Well, W called a few hours ago. Started out with small talk, hey how are you doing, etc. Then she started crying. I asked what was wrong, and she said she missed the kids. I asked was that all, and she cried for a sec, then said she didn't want the kids or me to hate her for what is going on.

At that point, I broke some rules, and started to talk about R. She was ok, and forthcoming with answers. She said I deserved to be able to ask questions, because what she is doing is wrong. I asked if she was happy there, and she replied with "Well, I kinda am". She also said she doesn't know if she loves him truly or not, but she seems to think OM is currently making her happy. I reminded her, she was on a 3 day vacation without the kids, and 2 dogs we have. She said she knows, and that this might be a fantasy, who knows. I asked if she thought our marriage had a chance, and she responded with "yes". She said she was wanting to come home and talk about R some more with me when she got home. I have no idea what is going to happen.

While on the phone, I told her I was NOT ok with what is going on. I told her that if this is to work out, OM has to go away, completey. She said, she knows.

It sounds like she is thinking about a lot of things, but I have no idea what is really on her mind.

jl,

Welcome to MB. As for the drama....seems like you are sucked into it. Ok that being a given, the question is: Do you want out of that roller coaster drama your WS has put you on? If yes, get a plan.

Here's my suggestion:

1. When your W comes back, send her to her parents or somewhere else to live until you get your plan together.

2. Get tested for STDs (both of you).

3. Get with a good MC/IC for you 1st. Call Jennifer C @ MB for some phone counseling. She is great at helping BS' formulate a plan.

4. Identify your personal boundaries. Implement them.
Read Surviving an Affair (Harley), Love must be tough (Dobson), then His Needs/Her Needs (Harley). In that order. Take the emotional needs questionnaire.

5. Secure your finances. Expect the WS to try and clean you out. Don't assume she won't. She is not in her right mind or heart at this time.

6. Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

7. Do NOT allow the WS to manipulate you again. If she brings up your faults from your past....admit the true ones and then walk away. A WS will not give you a break, instead a WS will want to break your family and your spirity. You are correct about the alien theory. Don't treat her as your W if she is a WS.

8. Expect her to file false charges with the police against you. Be prepared. If there are any acts of domestic violence, report it to the police immediately. Don't be macho. Her actions must be recorded because if she fights help, then you have support. This is critical.

9. Learn about plans A & B quickly....do the reading suggested above.

You have a lot t/d. Get started.

take care,
L.

jlost, let me ask YOU a question. You like walking in the middle of the road, but an 18 Wheeler has come up over the hill and is barreling right toward you. You look down at your right and left, and see two little hands, each olding one of your hands, as the three of you walk on the "easy and smooth" pavement.

Will you get off the road and onto the "rough terrain" even though you have to take the kids into that hostile environment with you, or will you hope that the Semi hurtling toward all of you, with your wife driving it will somehow magically and mystically pass through you without harm?

It's time you faced reality if you are to have any hope of saving your marriage.

When you are ready to step off the road, let us know. Until then, we are wasting our breath hoping you will listen. You have NO incentive to listen right now, and THAT is the problem.

YOU put her on the plane???!!! You need to begin with the realization that you cannot let your emotions control you actions. The rest of the story is merely justification for HER behavior and for YOUR behavior. Two self-destructive people HOPING things will be different but unwilling to "step off the easy road" and make NEEDED changes.

We'll "keep the light on" in case you decide stay at the "Save your marriage" hotel. Just remember you have to "check in" before you can have a room.

I really do appreciate all the feedback I've gotten. The conversation we had last night was driven by emotions, and I need to learn how to control them. I wish 2 or 3 of you could be here in real life, to kick me when I mess up, because I'm not very good at this.

I know I put her on the plane. It is a mistake I will never live down. I just found out about A, and was still in shock I guess. W was sounding so sincere, but I guess I was being manipulated. It's just I couldn't see W doing that, but I need to face the hard truth, that W is not thinking straight right now.

I *am* listening to you all. I really am. I will eventually get it. I have been through this before (A and all), but the dynamics of this one are totally different than last time. Last time I didn't know about A in the beginning, so I acted in a way that reflected that. Sometimes I wonder if it is a good idea to know about A, because it makes it hard to plan A when you hold so much hate, hurt, and resentment for what is going on.

Can anyone here, tell me how their version of the conversation would have gone as soon as their W started crying, wanting to confess her feelings about what was going on? I guess I sort of panic'd, and started to talk about R. I figured it was good to talk about R while W wanted to. I guess I need to do more listening though, instead of talking when this happens. Or maybe I need to change the conversation back to small talk? I really could use some advice in this area.

W comes home today, wish me luck.

Arg. I can do this. I know what to do. Thinking back 4 years ago, I eventually got it, I can get it again. At some point, during our 2 month separation, I just started to totally detach. When I would visit the kids on the weekends, I got to the point where I would pick them up, and say hi/bye to W, without worrying too much about R at all. I loved her, but I didn't want the drama anymore. I would have done anything to keep working on R, but was also ready to move on at that point.

When W would bring up OM, I didn't care *at all* anymore. Unlike now, where I kinda want to know details, because somehow I think it will help me, but it won't.

I will get back to that point, I will.

When you "listen" to a fogged-out WS, what you hear is Babble. All you're going to hear from her is rationalizations and justification for why her affair behavior should be okay.

My suggestion to you would be to review Orchid's recent post to you, and to read UVA's War Room thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=1#2979264
Read the Good_Father's entire thread as well: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2976756

You have ALOT of work to do. Don't allow yourself to become sidetracked by your emotional response. You ALREADY know what's going on here. The minor details are not worth losing your cool over.

Here's a mantra for you.... 'If you are not in control of your emotions...then your emotions are in control of YOU.'

I realize u r in shock so while I am insensed at how you allowed yourself and how she manipulated you into giving your blessing, $$ and time to go have an A, I can see you need help. Big time.

With that said, you need to ID your boundaries immediately. The next wave of manipulation is being planned by her and the OM right now. So be prepared. Review what I outlined and get yourself in a good plan. Stop blaming yourself for the past. Her choices now are to have a A and tell you about it as if you are her girlfriend. See how your role has shifted? Act as her H and when she talks about the OM, show her the door. That's a tool for you. She needs to unload about her A, don't give her that opportunity to burden you and relieve her of her guilt.

Your W sounds like my SIL. I hope you aren't my BIL?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

BTw, my H's youngest sister won't talk to me because she KNOWS what I will say. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Take care,
L.

Buddy, she is a master at manipulating you.