We are 15 months past DDay & 10 months past NC. I thought we were in real recovery and had truly reconnected. I know in someways we have but yesterday I approached him with my feelings that for me to heal 100%, I needed him to open up to me about his feelings before, during & after the A regarding OW. I told him I didn't want details as much as I wanted his honesty. I know it will hurt but until he can be open with me about this, I feel like he is either 1) still harboring feelings for her & back with me because of the family thing; 2) possibly still having contact with her or 3) not being 100% committed to our marriage. His position is that he doesn't see what good it will do and refuses to talk further. I told him the good it would do is allow me to cast aside the remaining doubts I have so I can move forward. He said we have come so far, I thought you were with me on that. To which I agreed, just this is the one thing that keeps going through my mind.

After the A was exposed & supposedly ended. We worked to rebuild our relationship. His OW was a co-worker & during this time she was out on medical leave for about 6 weeks. When she returned, he began to withdraw from me & the importance of making our marriage work. Due to some snooping on my part, interference by friends, and just strange occurences, I found out that he was still contacting her, and having problems with ending their relationship. I gave him an ultimatum and he chose me.

Her department was moved to another floor (due to management trying to get them away from each other) and we continued to heal. Last August, she left the company and it seems we have been recovering ever since. I overheard a message she left for him to call her in September of which became an issue for me but he has continually said he has not had any contact with her. But he lied in the beginning when he came home so I'm not sure he is truthful. She is also married. Now FWH company is moving to a different location and will be in her building. I'm having a very hard time as all the memories & fears have returned. Thus, yesterday I approached him with these and he would not respond.

I don't know what to do about this. It makes me feel that maybe he is in denial, & that although he says he wants our marriage to work, his heart is not into it and it will just be a matter of time before he runs into her again and it all starts over. Of course, there are other issues that we need to deal with within our marriage but for right now this is the first one that I need to put behind me. Does anyone have any thoughts, suggestions? & No, we have not had MC as he would never agree. I have not done IC but have tried to read everything available to help me through. MB has helped immensely, but now I feel helpless again.

BS me 46
F?WH 46
M 24 yrs; T 30
D 16; S 13

Trying to overcome feeling of being alone in relationship.

This fear is completely valid.

Just "running into her" IS contact, and could likely start the withdrawal process all over again.

I can't stress to you enough how dangerous their working in the same building can be.

Have you exposed the A to OWH? How about co-workers?

Okay, so he isn't willing to be open and honest with you, he isn't willing to go to MC.

What is he willing to do?

Frozen is correct. Just seeing her is enough to cause a problem. Also Frozen is right on the exposure. Does OWH know ?

He also must be honest. The refusal to let you know all the details is a block to intimacy down the road. Believe me I speak from experiance on this issue. As hard as it is for him and you, all details must come out.

It blocks his ability to draw close to you in recovery. Without that, there is a wall between you both. But I caution you. There is not much you can do yourself to pull it out.

MC will have to take care of that or total conviction to come clean on his part. You will not be able to drag it out of him.

It will be a large LB if you even try. Just try to provide a safe landing zone for him when he does come clean.

OWH is the one who exposed A by finding them at a hotel on a holiday. As far as co-workers, WH, OW, & OW MIL all worked together. Most co-workers found out later due to office talk as time passed. OW MIL was also betrayed in discovery as she had been close friend to my H for many yrs AND her other son's XW had also done the same thing, same scenario, same company, a few yrs before & ended up marrying OM. What a low blow. And fyi, OW is 15 yrs younger, H said she first needed advice abt her marriage then began to compliment him often, made him feel important (respect) and that is what drew them together. He said he thought I didn’t love him anymore & she paid attention to him. I was always p.o. because he was not dependable, whether it be going to Happy Hour after work, not following a budget, drinking too much…

On DDAY, although I knew of problems in our M the A was not remotely possible in my mind. We had been doing better, had a great NY's & were looking forward to 2005. Little did I know & was totally devastated when WH rushed in to tell me what went down. He said at the time he thought he loved her, packed & left. After a day passed, I called WH mom. She called & blasted him. Basically told him OW would never be welcome & for him to think hard of what he was giving up & what it would do to his kids. I told WH, I could forgive if he wanted to come home but he had to make a choice, me or her, so he came home, apologized, & we began to try to make it work. I knew he was in middle of MLC due to his behavior (tanning, working out,…) consumed with his looks & getting older.

2 weeks later, I intercepted his sexually explicit VM message to OW & confronted him. I told him to pack his*** & leave. I called the MIL, OW, & OWH, which basically didn’t help matters any other than answer a few questions. OW & H were trying to work it out. OW actually told me she was sorry & they didn’t realize how many people they would hurt. During this time my WH was torn up, unable to function much & kept telling me to not give up on him. I again told him I could forgive & he was welcome to come home when he could leave her alone. By end of week he called & wanted to come home. We fell back together & nursed our pain alone (& with help of alcohol). We spent all our free time together & tried to heal. Then, I found a letter OW had written to him “thanking him” for all they shared & that she would always love him. His response was that she had given this to him right after discovery as a good bye. I let it go.

Also, during this time OW left on medical leave & was out abt 6 weeks. We wkd on our relationship, went on vacation, & seemed to be on our way to recovery. Then OW returned to work & I started getting vibes of indifference by intuition & found where she had called him & he had been in contact with her at work. This caused much fighting between us. The final blow was when I found her phone number on his cell & confronted him. He said he had not talked to her but left her a message of the B&D song “Its getting better all the time” Well, the lyrics of it broke my heart, he of course, said no he didn’t think of like that “just letting her know he had moved on”. My pain was excruciating. Also, a mutual friend, emailed me that the A was still happening & WH loved the B****. I then told WH to leave me & kids & let us move on with our life. He swore nothing was going on but I told him he had to make a final choice. I had to move on as the limbo life was killing me. I also called OW & OWH once again. She denied it. I did tell her H what my H had said that she had kissed a previous married co-worker but he had left the company before anything further happened. Her H never knew this. She also told my husband that my contact with her H could get him hurt. He was very specific that I not contact OW H again, which I haven’t yet. But I think she is just scared that I can expose her further to her own family.

Since she found another job, it seemed as we were returning to normal & I felt that he has been honest with me. She left him a VM in Sept. that sounded a little too personal just asking him to call her back, but he swore that he had not had any contact, (probably a lie) & I let it go. We continued to improve our relationship & I had just started to relax when the news of the change in work location was announced and as time gets closer, I have begun to question him on a few matters which in turn brought about our discussion yesterday regarding 100% honestly.

I don’t have anyway to intercept their contact now so it will have to be luck if I were to expose. I’ve told him a 100x, all I want is his honesty. Which I do think he is trying but once they have access to each other without much effort, all bets are off. MIL no longer works there, & although others will probably be on the lookout, it will be easier for them to resume contact. I’ve thought about going to see OW (in person) , but then, what good would that do? Other than satisfy my need to trash her finally. (I was always courteous when I talked to her before) I won’t do that again. After H’s inability to be honest with me yesterday, I don’t know what or anything that could help. I do love him with all my being & want to save our marriage, but I also want to know he is 100% committed as I don’t want to spend the rest of my life with a man who loves me 2nd. He used to be my best friend, now sometimes I don’t know who he is.

“What is H willing to do?” Let’s see. He comes home after work each day, he helps more with family & financial responsibilities, he meets me for lunch &/or a drink after work generally 2x a week. He emails me & calls me throughout the day. We get along & do everything together, it seems. OTOH, he shares zero personal feelings about himself. What do I do? I get up & cook bf for him almost everyday, I compliment him, have sex like never before, go with him wherever he wants, I don’t nag, I smile & try to make myself always attractive, I'm his new drinking buddy. The more I write, the more I feel like a fool, always looking over my shoulder.

I think my best bet will be to call the MIL & see if she will talk to me. Because, you are right, I will never get it out of him, and I won’t know the truth unless I expose. I don’t ever want to be duped again, nor do I want to live as unhappy as I am now for the rest of my marriage or 4yrs until youngest graduates HS. One other idea, I have a journal that I've kept periodically during this time. Would it help for him to read it? or would it just cause more pain?

Sorry this so long, I felt the need to pour out my heart to those who would listen & sympathize & advise.

You say you guys are improving, but it is conditional on NC. Has he written a NC letter to her. I may have missed that but has that happened.

Until there is 100% pure NC, you guys will not be able to recover.

Has he considered changing jobs, or maybe your family moving to another town. Many people have had to make radical changes to avoid being in contact with the OP.

I would not allow him into your journal. It would not make a difference. A WS does not really care anyway. They say they do, but not really, they are too fogged out.

Have you both considered talking to the Harleys?

WOL

No, I never knew about this site & advice a couple of months ago. If I could have initiated Plan A & Plan B as instructed then, maybe. But after I made the issue, he did talk to her and "they" made the decision to have no further contact. That hurt too but it seemed to work.

In the beginning, he wanted to change jobs, but after she left he let that go. From what I was told her H made her switch. We don't live in the same town as OW but we are within 40 miles as it is a large metroplex area, and the place of employment is in the city.

I would not want to move due to upsetting my kids to change schools. Once they're out of HS, I will be ready to go.

He doesn't know anything about this site & has never wanted any outside interference. I used to think it was about guilt & shame; now it seems it is still the fog. Although in the beginning, he wanted to talk to my pastor, he never did. I'm sure he would not do that now & would be upset with me for writing our story online. I don't really care anymore, as I am falling back into dread & fear by the hour.

Will the Harley's talk to me only? I know I probably should initiate sometype of individual counseling as right now I am relying solely on the MB for support.

I meant until a couple of months ago, well after time of NC was requested.

AnnieT

I am sorry but both of them talking things over and aggreeing on no contact is not NC. Ask him to write a NC letter. There are a bunch of samples an suggestions on the website.

I may be confused, but is she still working for the same company and in the same building he is in. If so, that has to end. I don't want to sound harse, but you will not make it another 4 yrs for the kids to get out of high school.

The Harleys will talk to you alone. I did at first. My sitch is far from over but you should at least talk to them 1 time.

It is not too late to start MB principles.

It means he intends to keep secrets. Old secrets, ongoing secrets and probably new secrets.

Yes, you can talk to an MB counselor by yourself. Either way, by yourself or with H, I recommend it.

And ask about exposure, too.

With prayers,

Thank you both, I had that feeling just wanted to believe it not to be true. And, no she works for a different company but within the same industry. The building has probably 40-50 floors & know they will be on different floors. I had more confidence when her MIL was there as I knew she kept a watchful eye. Its different now. He keeps telling me that it doesn't matter about the building, he would contact her IF he wanted to, but he doesn't.

I'm unsure at this point whether to continue to smile & hold it in or otherwise, if I make it a choice, my guess is that he would leave. I've told him if he left a 3rd time it would be his last.

Do you know what you want now?

with prayers,

Yes, I want love, peace & contentment (our marraige to work & kids happy). I want him to be as committed as I am, & to love & want me again, as I do him, & share everything inc. goals, feelings, responsibilities & be 100% open.

That is just the problem, should I continue to try my hardest to make him happy while seeing the big picture until the inevitable happens? or do I stand up for my needs now & force the issue to make him choose? It would be ugly, hard on kids as I know he would leave, but it seems that would be the only way I could have the peace I need. Either he would be out of my life or he would finally realize that he has to give me 100% & come home to be the man that I know he can.

As I said before, all of our old issues were generally over his irresponsibility primarily to drinking too much. But this hurts worse, because he used to apologize & promise he would do better, now he is never at fault. It somehow always comes back on me. I'm tired of my heart hurting all the time, & he is oblivious to it.

Is this typical?

Annie, I agree with Aphelion that you should counsel with Steve Harley. I get the sense that you have not really been in recovery all this time, but rather in a full blown Plan A where you knock yourself out meeting his needs and does very little to meet yours. The reason I say this is because honesty is the first step in recovery. As long as he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy, recovery is impossible. The rebuilding of trust is impossible.

There are some critical elements that facilitate recovery are in this article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Here is an excellent letter about the importance of honesty written to a WS: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2739000

And lastly, going back to work in the same building will likely doom your marriage. This is why Harley is ADAMANT that all contact end, even if one has to make career moves or move to another state.

This is about like sending an alcoholic into the bar every day, giving him a beer, and then wondering why he can't sober up. He can control his drinking for a short time, but all he thinks about is that drink because it is in front of his face every day. He is OBSESSED with that drink and can think of nothing else. the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity and he is off on a binge.

This is what will happen, Annie. We have a few ppl here whose spouses had LONG TERM affairs because their BS's did not take extraordinary precautions to ensure the affair was ended.

Just ask Aphelion, whose wife was in a TEN YEAR affair. In short, his even working in the same building is like playing Russian Roulette with your marriage.

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Is he an alcoholic?

the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity [/quote]

Wow, Melody... this is SO well put !!!

This is exactly what many of us here are trying so very hard to avoid.

Thank you Dear God for sending your angel, Melody, to us.

Carnation

Thank you, carnation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AnnieT

Listen to Mel. She is one of the best. You can't go wrong. She will give the advice you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Look at her tag line at the end of her signature and that says it all.

Good luck, I will be following you and jump in occasionally.

WOL

Yes, I believe he could be an alcoholic in some ways. Mostly I believe he has an addictive personality. Whether it be drinking, gambling, sports, or the most recent an affair, it seems to consume him. I think the drinking now is more a form of numbness. He said he used to drink so much during the A because of the guilt he felt when he came home to us. Now it has leveled out, but is still an issue. In light of the last few days, it is probably due to still dealing with the guilt of either continuing contact w/her or simply never losing his feelings for her.

I have read the letter and it is awesome as it really hits the point. Isn't it amazing how the effects of the pain is so common as are the reactions & actions. I am currently working on a modification of it to meet my thoughts & needs. I am not going to act quickly or on impulse, I will use all my resources until I can make a decision as to how to approach. I don't want my emotions to take over as they did months ago, I want to be logical, clear & honest.

Its funny how I almost have a calmness about this all now & am not feeling the utter panic & devastation as in the beginning. Its all begininng to make sense & I know that no matter what the result may be, I have done EVERYTHING in my power to make him happy and he knows it. He will need to make the choice as to what is MOST important to him.

I am so grateful to each of you for your responses. It helps immensely.

Annie

Smart girl!