We are 15 months past DDay & 10 months past NC. I thought we were in real recovery and had truly reconnected. I know in someways we have but yesterday I approached him with my feelings that for me to heal 100%, I needed him to open up to me about his feelings before, during & after the A regarding OW. I told him I didn't want details as much as I wanted his honesty. I know it will hurt but until he can be open with me about this, I feel like he is either 1) still harboring feelings for her & back with me because of the family thing; 2) possibly still having contact with her or 3) not being 100% committed to our marriage. His position is that he doesn't see what good it will do and refuses to talk further. I told him the good it would do is allow me to cast aside the remaining doubts I have so I can move forward. He said we have come so far, I thought you were with me on that. To which I agreed, just this is the one thing that keeps going through my mind.

After the A was exposed & supposedly ended. We worked to rebuild our relationship. His OW was a co-worker & during this time she was out on medical leave for about 6 weeks. When she returned, he began to withdraw from me & the importance of making our marriage work. Due to some snooping on my part, interference by friends, and just strange occurences, I found out that he was still contacting her, and having problems with ending their relationship. I gave him an ultimatum and he chose me.

Her department was moved to another floor (due to management trying to get them away from each other) and we continued to heal. Last August, she left the company and it seems we have been recovering ever since. I overheard a message she left for him to call her in September of which became an issue for me but he has continually said he has not had any contact with her. But he lied in the beginning when he came home so I'm not sure he is truthful. She is also married. Now FWH company is moving to a different location and will be in her building. I'm having a very hard time as all the memories & fears have returned. Thus, yesterday I approached him with these and he would not respond.

I don't know what to do about this. It makes me feel that maybe he is in denial, & that although he says he wants our marriage to work, his heart is not into it and it will just be a matter of time before he runs into her again and it all starts over. Of course, there are other issues that we need to deal with within our marriage but for right now this is the first one that I need to put behind me. Does anyone have any thoughts, suggestions? & No, we have not had MC as he would never agree. I have not done IC but have tried to read everything available to help me through. MB has helped immensely, but now I feel helpless again.

BS me 46
F?WH 46
M 24 yrs; T 30
D 16; S 13

Trying to overcome feeling of being alone in relationship.

This fear is completely valid.

Just "running into her" IS contact, and could likely start the withdrawal process all over again.

I can't stress to you enough how dangerous their working in the same building can be.

Have you exposed the A to OWH? How about co-workers?

Okay, so he isn't willing to be open and honest with you, he isn't willing to go to MC.

What is he willing to do?

Frozen is correct. Just seeing her is enough to cause a problem. Also Frozen is right on the exposure. Does OWH know ?

He also must be honest. The refusal to let you know all the details is a block to intimacy down the road. Believe me I speak from experiance on this issue. As hard as it is for him and you, all details must come out.

It blocks his ability to draw close to you in recovery. Without that, there is a wall between you both. But I caution you. There is not much you can do yourself to pull it out.

MC will have to take care of that or total conviction to come clean on his part. You will not be able to drag it out of him.

It will be a large LB if you even try. Just try to provide a safe landing zone for him when he does come clean.

OWH is the one who exposed A by finding them at a hotel on a holiday. As far as co-workers, WH, OW, & OW MIL all worked together. Most co-workers found out later due to office talk as time passed. OW MIL was also betrayed in discovery as she had been close friend to my H for many yrs AND her other son's XW had also done the same thing, same scenario, same company, a few yrs before & ended up marrying OM. What a low blow. And fyi, OW is 15 yrs younger, H said she first needed advice abt her marriage then began to compliment him often, made him feel important (respect) and that is what drew them together. He said he thought I didn’t love him anymore & she paid attention to him. I was always p.o. because he was not dependable, whether it be going to Happy Hour after work, not following a budget, drinking too much…

On DDAY, although I knew of problems in our M the A was not remotely possible in my mind. We had been doing better, had a great NY's & were looking forward to 2005. Little did I know & was totally devastated when WH rushed in to tell me what went down. He said at the time he thought he loved her, packed & left. After a day passed, I called WH mom. She called & blasted him. Basically told him OW would never be welcome & for him to think hard of what he was giving up & what it would do to his kids. I told WH, I could forgive if he wanted to come home but he had to make a choice, me or her, so he came home, apologized, & we began to try to make it work. I knew he was in middle of MLC due to his behavior (tanning, working out,…) consumed with his looks & getting older.

2 weeks later, I intercepted his sexually explicit VM message to OW & confronted him. I told him to pack his*** & leave. I called the MIL, OW, & OWH, which basically didn’t help matters any other than answer a few questions. OW & H were trying to work it out. OW actually told me she was sorry & they didn’t realize how many people they would hurt. During this time my WH was torn up, unable to function much & kept telling me to not give up on him. I again told him I could forgive & he was welcome to come home when he could leave her alone. By end of week he called & wanted to come home. We fell back together & nursed our pain alone (& with help of alcohol). We spent all our free time together & tried to heal. Then, I found a letter OW had written to him “thanking him” for all they shared & that she would always love him. His response was that she had given this to him right after discovery as a good bye. I let it go.

Also, during this time OW left on medical leave & was out abt 6 weeks. We wkd on our relationship, went on vacation, & seemed to be on our way to recovery. Then OW returned to work & I started getting vibes of indifference by intuition & found where she had called him & he had been in contact with her at work. This caused much fighting between us. The final blow was when I found her phone number on his cell & confronted him. He said he had not talked to her but left her a message of the B&D song “Its getting better all the time” Well, the lyrics of it broke my heart, he of course, said no he didn’t think of like that “just letting her know he had moved on”. My pain was excruciating. Also, a mutual friend, emailed me that the A was still happening & WH loved the B****. I then told WH to leave me & kids & let us move on with our life. He swore nothing was going on but I told him he had to make a final choice. I had to move on as the limbo life was killing me. I also called OW & OWH once again. She denied it. I did tell her H what my H had said that she had kissed a previous married co-worker but he had left the company before anything further happened. Her H never knew this. She also told my husband that my contact with her H could get him hurt. He was very specific that I not contact OW H again, which I haven’t yet. But I think she is just scared that I can expose her further to her own family.

Since she found another job, it seemed as we were returning to normal & I felt that he has been honest with me. She left him a VM in Sept. that sounded a little too personal just asking him to call her back, but he swore that he had not had any contact, (probably a lie) & I let it go. We continued to improve our relationship & I had just started to relax when the news of the change in work location was announced and as time gets closer, I have begun to question him on a few matters which in turn brought about our discussion yesterday regarding 100% honestly.

I don’t have anyway to intercept their contact now so it will have to be luck if I were to expose. I’ve told him a 100x, all I want is his honesty. Which I do think he is trying but once they have access to each other without much effort, all bets are off. MIL no longer works there, & although others will probably be on the lookout, it will be easier for them to resume contact. I’ve thought about going to see OW (in person) , but then, what good would that do? Other than satisfy my need to trash her finally. (I was always courteous when I talked to her before) I won’t do that again. After H’s inability to be honest with me yesterday, I don’t know what or anything that could help. I do love him with all my being & want to save our marriage, but I also want to know he is 100% committed as I don’t want to spend the rest of my life with a man who loves me 2nd. He used to be my best friend, now sometimes I don’t know who he is.

“What is H willing to do?” Let’s see. He comes home after work each day, he helps more with family & financial responsibilities, he meets me for lunch &/or a drink after work generally 2x a week. He emails me & calls me throughout the day. We get along & do everything together, it seems. OTOH, he shares zero personal feelings about himself. What do I do? I get up & cook bf for him almost everyday, I compliment him, have sex like never before, go with him wherever he wants, I don’t nag, I smile & try to make myself always attractive, I'm his new drinking buddy. The more I write, the more I feel like a fool, always looking over my shoulder.

I think my best bet will be to call the MIL & see if she will talk to me. Because, you are right, I will never get it out of him, and I won’t know the truth unless I expose. I don’t ever want to be duped again, nor do I want to live as unhappy as I am now for the rest of my marriage or 4yrs until youngest graduates HS. One other idea, I have a journal that I've kept periodically during this time. Would it help for him to read it? or would it just cause more pain?

Sorry this so long, I felt the need to pour out my heart to those who would listen & sympathize & advise.

You say you guys are improving, but it is conditional on NC. Has he written a NC letter to her. I may have missed that but has that happened.

Until there is 100% pure NC, you guys will not be able to recover.

Has he considered changing jobs, or maybe your family moving to another town. Many people have had to make radical changes to avoid being in contact with the OP.

I would not allow him into your journal. It would not make a difference. A WS does not really care anyway. They say they do, but not really, they are too fogged out.

Have you both considered talking to the Harleys?

WOL

No, I never knew about this site & advice a couple of months ago. If I could have initiated Plan A & Plan B as instructed then, maybe. But after I made the issue, he did talk to her and "they" made the decision to have no further contact. That hurt too but it seemed to work.

In the beginning, he wanted to change jobs, but after she left he let that go. From what I was told her H made her switch. We don't live in the same town as OW but we are within 40 miles as it is a large metroplex area, and the place of employment is in the city.

I would not want to move due to upsetting my kids to change schools. Once they're out of HS, I will be ready to go.

He doesn't know anything about this site & has never wanted any outside interference. I used to think it was about guilt & shame; now it seems it is still the fog. Although in the beginning, he wanted to talk to my pastor, he never did. I'm sure he would not do that now & would be upset with me for writing our story online. I don't really care anymore, as I am falling back into dread & fear by the hour.

Will the Harley's talk to me only? I know I probably should initiate sometype of individual counseling as right now I am relying solely on the MB for support.

I meant until a couple of months ago, well after time of NC was requested.

AnnieT

I am sorry but both of them talking things over and aggreeing on no contact is not NC. Ask him to write a NC letter. There are a bunch of samples an suggestions on the website.

I may be confused, but is she still working for the same company and in the same building he is in. If so, that has to end. I don't want to sound harse, but you will not make it another 4 yrs for the kids to get out of high school.

The Harleys will talk to you alone. I did at first. My sitch is far from over but you should at least talk to them 1 time.

It is not too late to start MB principles.

It means he intends to keep secrets. Old secrets, ongoing secrets and probably new secrets.

Yes, you can talk to an MB counselor by yourself. Either way, by yourself or with H, I recommend it.

And ask about exposure, too.

With prayers,

Thank you both, I had that feeling just wanted to believe it not to be true. And, no she works for a different company but within the same industry. The building has probably 40-50 floors & know they will be on different floors. I had more confidence when her MIL was there as I knew she kept a watchful eye. Its different now. He keeps telling me that it doesn't matter about the building, he would contact her IF he wanted to, but he doesn't.

I'm unsure at this point whether to continue to smile & hold it in or otherwise, if I make it a choice, my guess is that he would leave. I've told him if he left a 3rd time it would be his last.

Do you know what you want now?

with prayers,

Yes, I want love, peace & contentment (our marraige to work & kids happy). I want him to be as committed as I am, & to love & want me again, as I do him, & share everything inc. goals, feelings, responsibilities & be 100% open.

That is just the problem, should I continue to try my hardest to make him happy while seeing the big picture until the inevitable happens? or do I stand up for my needs now & force the issue to make him choose? It would be ugly, hard on kids as I know he would leave, but it seems that would be the only way I could have the peace I need. Either he would be out of my life or he would finally realize that he has to give me 100% & come home to be the man that I know he can.

As I said before, all of our old issues were generally over his irresponsibility primarily to drinking too much. But this hurts worse, because he used to apologize & promise he would do better, now he is never at fault. It somehow always comes back on me. I'm tired of my heart hurting all the time, & he is oblivious to it.

Is this typical?

Annie, I agree with Aphelion that you should counsel with Steve Harley. I get the sense that you have not really been in recovery all this time, but rather in a full blown Plan A where you knock yourself out meeting his needs and does very little to meet yours. The reason I say this is because honesty is the first step in recovery. As long as he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy, recovery is impossible. The rebuilding of trust is impossible.

There are some critical elements that facilitate recovery are in this article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Here is an excellent letter about the importance of honesty written to a WS: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2739000

And lastly, going back to work in the same building will likely doom your marriage. This is why Harley is ADAMANT that all contact end, even if one has to make career moves or move to another state.

This is about like sending an alcoholic into the bar every day, giving him a beer, and then wondering why he can't sober up. He can control his drinking for a short time, but all he thinks about is that drink because it is in front of his face every day. He is OBSESSED with that drink and can think of nothing else. the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity and he is off on a binge.

This is what will happen, Annie. We have a few ppl here whose spouses had LONG TERM affairs because their BS's did not take extraordinary precautions to ensure the affair was ended.

Just ask Aphelion, whose wife was in a TEN YEAR affair. In short, his even working in the same building is like playing Russian Roulette with your marriage.

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Is he an alcoholic?

the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity [/quote]

Wow, Melody... this is SO well put !!!

This is exactly what many of us here are trying so very hard to avoid.

Thank you Dear God for sending your angel, Melody, to us.

Carnation

Thank you, carnation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AnnieT

Listen to Mel. She is one of the best. You can't go wrong. She will give the advice you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Look at her tag line at the end of her signature and that says it all.

Good luck, I will be following you and jump in occasionally.

WOL

Yes, I believe he could be an alcoholic in some ways. Mostly I believe he has an addictive personality. Whether it be drinking, gambling, sports, or the most recent an affair, it seems to consume him. I think the drinking now is more a form of numbness. He said he used to drink so much during the A because of the guilt he felt when he came home to us. Now it has leveled out, but is still an issue. In light of the last few days, it is probably due to still dealing with the guilt of either continuing contact w/her or simply never losing his feelings for her.

I have read the letter and it is awesome as it really hits the point. Isn't it amazing how the effects of the pain is so common as are the reactions & actions. I am currently working on a modification of it to meet my thoughts & needs. I am not going to act quickly or on impulse, I will use all my resources until I can make a decision as to how to approach. I don't want my emotions to take over as they did months ago, I want to be logical, clear & honest.

Its funny how I almost have a calmness about this all now & am not feeling the utter panic & devastation as in the beginning. Its all begininng to make sense & I know that no matter what the result may be, I have done EVERYTHING in my power to make him happy and he knows it. He will need to make the choice as to what is MOST important to him.

I am so grateful to each of you for your responses. It helps immensely.

Annie

Smart girl!

Easier said than done. The pain is so deep, how I could continue to love someone who is so oblivious to my needs. What is it about love that makes it hurt so much?

I believe he feels like he was & is still in love with her, which is the problem he has with opening up to me. To be honest he would have to admit it, and therein again is the problem. The truth.

Is it too much to ask him to move out until he can be honest with me? or is this what he wants, me asking him to leave?

Annie,

Dr. Harley says that you cannot work on the marriage if you are separated.

You can't force him to be honest with you. All you can do is ask him for what you need and provide an environment that encourages his honesty, rather than discouraging it. That is still no guarantee that you will receive it.

I understand your paradox. I'm in the same situation myself. Unfortunately for me, in the past I have done things to discourage my H from opening up to me, allowing my emotions to rule.

It's still his responsibility to be honest in our M, but it doesn't really make sense for me to behave in a manner that almost ensures I will not get what I need, does it?

Remember that your feelings are not a true source of support for you. Your feelings aren't right or wrong and they are your own. Your feelings are telling you something about yourself as you are at that particular moment , not necessarily more than that.

Feelings change. You can allow yourself to feel them, but remember to RESPOND , rather than REACT to situations with your H. You can respond by applying logic - what you think, rather than what you feel, based on the principles and guidelines you are learning here.

Yes, I know. But what do you mean that I provide an environment that encourages honesty? Just by being honest myself with him? still following plan A? It seems almost too late now. I think he is going to have to leave and see what life beholds before he will ever be able change or make a FINAL choice. He has too much to lose, & its hard for him to admit to us that he is giving up.

As the past couple days have passed, I am more sure that the contact never ceased. It may not have continued physically but otherwise it has. Should I expose this to OWH or is that just being vindictive?

If you have already exposed once, I would recommend not exposing again or it may appear vindictive and drive the S further away. If you haven't already, it may help

I am at work and don't have time right now for the response I'd like to give you. I will write more later, but for now...

If you have proof there is continued contact...

YES YOU SHOULD EXPOSE

Affairs thrive in secrecy.

Okay, Annie. This question would probably be best addressed by telling you what NOT to do, as experience is the best teacher and I have made some errors that have greatly contributed to the current state of things in my marriage.
Some of them are:

-When I would get details about the A, I would freak out, allowing my emotions to totally control me. I would lash out, scream, yell, throw things, tell him how much I hated him and how despicable he was for doing the things he did, tell him I was leaving, etc...

Given that being abandoned was a big fear for my H, you can probably see why my reactions made it more difficult for him to open up to me and be completely honest.

Now, you may not have reacted quite as strongly as I did when you received some details or information from your H, but if your H has difficulty being honest, chances are he probably has an issue with conflict-avoidance (which seems to be a common trait for WS's).

Try to think about YOUR behavior and things you might have done that may have made it more difficult for your H to be completely open with you. What is it that he fears in telling you? Perhaps you could ask him what YOU could do that would make him feel safer to be radically honest.

As I said before, it could have nothing to do with you and could be completely his own issue, but the only person you can control is YOU, so all you can do is your part of the teamwork of Recovery, which includes not only your work, but anything you can do to benefit the team.

Recovery is like a three-legged race. Until you both learn to work together to move forward together in your marriage, as a unit, you're going to keep falling down. You may pick yourselves back up again, but if either of you continually take actions that benefit only one of you - the result is that you fall down again.

Learn what benefits the team and then you've really got something - you move together, covering more ground and learning to do it with more efficiency and ease.

If there has has been continued contact, and you are sure of it, Recovery can't begin. If there is ANY contact - and it doesn't have to mean physical contact - the affair is still active.

If you want to fight for your M, then you must do whatever is within your power to end the A. This means exposure, followed by Plan A.

When you say that one of you needs to leave the household for him to come to his senses, you are likely driving him right back to her.

You must enact Plan A, BEFORE Plan B, in order for either Plan to be effective.

Just checking on you this morning, Annie. How are you doing today?

I've been really busy at work this morning & I so appreciate your concern. I'm acually doing okay, really thinking of your comments & trying to apply to my situation as I still believe in our M and think he does too. He just can't help himself.

However, my problem lies in the fact that I am NOT SURE that he is still in contact with her. My gut tells me he is, but I have no proof. I jumped the gun last year at this time without proof and it was a mess. In the end, it was what brought him home but I will not confront again w/o solid proof. He has been defensive & somewhat distant to me since my questions on Sunday, which leads me to believe continued contact exists. However, he continues to plan our vacations, home improvement projects, etc. So I'm considering my options (POA) as to how to get what I need & in the meantime, I plan to continue to work on our happiness together.

I will not force the issue of him leaving until I have 100% proof of continued contact. And, if & when this happens, this time the only way I will continue our relationship is my terms (plan b, NC,...) He will once again have to make a choice, the thought of all this makes me panic again but it is not nearly as bad as before.

I have some ideas of how to get the proof but will not list on here, just in case. Sometimes it amazes me how small the world is, and I stupidly told him how I obtained my proof before, so obviously that source is no longer available.

Annie

Yes, he can. He's the only one who can.



This sounds like a wise move to me. Keep in mind that just because Recovery isn't going perfectly, that doesn't necessarily mean the only explanation for it is that there has been continued contact.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of the same elements still being present within him that allowed him to have an A in the first place. Just because the A is over, it doesn't mean that those things change suddenly and all of a sudden they "see the light", which could explain the distance you mentioned over your questions.

But, I will not tell you not to listen to your gut, either. If it is telling you something, the best thing to do is pay attention. Snoop around and get some proof. You are obviously a smart girl and I know you can find a way.

I understand entirely what you mean about not being able to use the same resources for information because he knows how you've found out things in the past.



This sounds more like a boundary with regards to honesty, or the lack thereof, to me. Plans A and B and the term "NC" often get really misunderstood. The Plans are designed specifically to bring about an end to the A, and Plan B is completely ineffective unless you've done a really good Plan A first.

I want to be sure that you understand all the Plans completely before you enact them.

I'm glad you're doing okay today, Annie.

I try to not be paranoid of continued contact but when he becomes distant & not wanting to communicate, it is the first thing on my mind. It all comes back to if he had nothing to hide, why would he back off?

He told me last night that I seemed cold to him, which I wasn't being cold, I simply wasn't busting my A to compliment him or be always fun & friendly, like I have been since the A. During the past months, he has always been very careful about staying in contact with me during the day, at lunch, etc. This week has been different, he has "missed" my call, "received" my email too late...just doesn't add up. He asked me last night what was on my mind & I told him I would talk to him later, when we were alone. He asked again, I told him bad timing, we would talk later. (we were at our son's track meet)

After which, we went to a local restaurant & met friends for about an hour. When we left, I got in the truck, we kissed very sweet & came home. I followed him out to porch & he asked again, I said calmly, "I don't think you are 100% committed to our marriage" to which he replied "I have to pee & went inside, when he didn't return & I went in, the door was locked & had to go through garage. He was lying in bed, & I said what is up with that? He acted like he didn't know what I was talking about at first & then said "oh I thought you had come in behind me". Yeah right. I got in bed & he said that he just didn't know how much longer we would make it due to my distrust of him to which I said yes, I totally agree, we both have to be 100% committed to make our marriage work & since he was not able to be totally honest with me, I didn't see where he was committed to me. I told him again all I want is your honesty. He wouldn't talk anymore & went to sleep.

How could he have loved me so much up until now & change almost overnight? He also has been drinking much more than usual & unable to come home & just hang out with me like before. All these things tell me some of the contact has resumed, & that my questions on Sunday have made him uneasy that I am on to him. I think he thought I had some proof last night is why he kept questionning me.

Up until this time, he has been trying to (or at least appearing to) make me feel "safe" as I called it. Now it seems my needs are no longer important. I have felt like he has been trying to pick a fight all week, & so far I have not taken the bait other than my answer to him last night. Physical contact has also decreased to almost zilch, that is total turn-a-round.

If he won't talk to me about it, I don't know what else to do. I thought about sending him an email this morning after we get to work with a short version of the "jonathan?" letter, but part of me thinks it is not worth it right now as he is not listening to what I say anyway & that he is back in the fog for sure.

I understand what you said about making sure it is not a previous issue before the A, which has some substance. His desire to have his "own" privacy is one of those things, but again, I think that was because of the secrets. And he has them again.

I pray that God will reveal to me "proof" as I don't want to throw my marriage away if in fact there is not contact; but I know in my gut I'm right because the H I know & love would not continue to thrust this knife in my heart, knowingly. He has turned back into that other man that I don't know.

Thank you again for your support, this time around I am not going to confide in my neighbors, although my friends they are his too and its a small town, if you know what I mean. So you are my godsend & I can't thank you enough. I feel bad that I don't even know your story, its like my H (its all about me). Anyway I pray that yours continue to improve & thank God for your presence.

If he hasn't given you all the details you need, he DOES have something to hide. But you already know that - your instinct is telling you.

Remember not to rely completely on your instinct.
You have some pretty good-sized red flags here, Annie. Are you working on gathering your facts to be sure there isn't continued contact?



This is an attempt to blame-shift. That doesn't mean you have to serve that ball back to him, though. Accept your portion of the responsibility and leave what is his portion to him. They are two separate entities.


Red flag.



Red Flag



Red Flag

Gather your facts before responding to him.



Joseph's letter...and I think you're right. An attempt to get him to understand will probably be futile until he is ready to listen.


God may reveal proof to you, but He also gave you a good head on your shoulders. You can use it to find your own proof. I have considered giving you some ideas, but am a little reluctant to do so because you previously mentioned something about being cautious because someone you know may be reading here. If you would like ideas on how to gather information, there are many here (including myself) who can provide you with some.



The conflict-avoidance issue I mentioned, and the reason for the A are directly related. What I meant was that even if all contact has stopped and the A has not resumed (or never stopped), that doesn't mean the conflict-avoidance issues will disappear instantly. Likely the conflict-avoidance was a pretty strong contributing factor to why he chose to have an A in the first place.

By the same token, it also doesn't mean that the A has resumed, which is why you need to pay attention to your hunches and get your facts in order.


Don't you spend your time feeling bad about that...this board is a community resource for all of us - take some when you need it and put some back in when you can. Right now you have a need, so use it. I've used it too, and will continue to do so.

WOW, you brought tears to my eyes. And, I believe in all you have said. I really don't know that anyone involved in my situation reads this site, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. I'm the one trying to get ahead of the game & don't want to sabotage my own plan. I welcome any and all ideas - email to: anniet1960@hotmail.com

I have some ideas of my own that I would like to bounce off as well before I initiate any action.

Thanks again, and believe me when the time comes for me to reciprocate on this site, I will try. I know some of my emails can be quite rambling but the responses I get are crystal clear. Most of all I am really glad to not be crazy as I was beginning to think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I know you will. For now, the best advice I can give you is to read and study and arm yourself with knowledge.



I know just what you mean. I felt the same way when I first arrived.

I even remember when I first read the term "trigger" here. It was validating to know that I wasn't the only one who had experienced this and that, in fact most everyone does, and to have apt name to describe them. Before that, I had been describing them to my H as "the bad thoughts".

You have mail.

I noticed some differences in our relationship yesterday that I haven't seen before. After DDAY & subsequent reconciliations, it seems as if we have been through cycles. As I read MB more & more, it all seems to be fairly common as to some of the ways people try to heal. I went from disappointment in my H for lack of responsibility, to desperate to make it work (after dday), to now, disillusioned & distrust.

Last evening, he (after being on the golf course all day)started whining about how his kids hated him. This was due to he missed our daughter looking beautiful & leaving for prom. I spent the day doing housework & helping her get ready for the big event. He was late coming home & missed her. Although since he was somewhat drunk, it was probably for the best. The kids don't hate him of course, but he can be so mean to them at times & they don't forget what he says & he doesn't always remember.

He said he wished that we had gone to the beach like the other parents after the dance... well, you can't do that and play golf all weekend. Its all about choices. I guess what I am seeing is this is the man that I became angry with over his issues & ****** at until he began to withdraw totally from family life. All this was when OW was around him (during the work day). Of course, this is the time when he was wonderful to me as well, I just work somewhere else. Now he is getting back to acting like the man who kept disappointing me, who has now taken away my security & maybe I can now see the whole picture.

As soon as I know the truth of his faithfulness in NC, I will be able to make my choices, as I cannot & will not continue to live in this type of limbo.

How is your investigative work coming?

Do you have confirmation as to whether there is continued contact or not?

Nothing so far. I have not yet received and/or accomplished the things that I need to help determine the continued contact; however, he did tell me to go for counseling if I thought it would help me as he felt like a caged animal when I questioned him that Sunday, and didn't like how it made him feel. Whatever...how it makes me feel.

OTOH, he is no longer distant and actually has done a 180 with his attitude/attention toward me. I haven't brought up anything else and will just continue my quest to satisfy myself of his loyalty and integrity on this matter.

i will let you know.

Annie,

Thanks for your reply to my thread. I am feeling much the same as you right now. I don't have proof just gut feelings and when I talk about this with him he responds by saying " we can't always live like this, what more can I do to make you beleive me? And my answer is give me more information about this relationship you were in and he won't do it. He did show me a picture of her but, I cant remember what she looks like and wouldn't recognize her if she walked down the street. I feel like I'm going crazy sometime because I can't relax and be happy that we are trying to work this out. I feel your anguish.

I've been out lately & just read your post. A picture huh? I would've probably ripped it & burned it (like a kid). I still only have a picture of a beast in my head at present but I am going to to go see her real soon. I just have to get it over with and I know that will help me put it behind me. If it backfires, oh well, I'll deal with that like all the rest of this crap.

My FWH has opened up a tiny bit, not so much about OW, but more about his feelings. He "says" it wasn't so much about her as it was the sex & excitement of the A. I told him about the fog and he agreed that was exactly what it was like. Maybe this is a start?? who knows? I just get so tired of always wondering if he is for real.

I know what you mean about going crazy, I am there!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I just read my last post from a month or so ago and guess what, he lied. I asked for some more radical honesty last night and told him I had to have it to move on. After saying that he just needed to roll out for 6 months or so bc I would never get past the A. Again I said just be honest. He told me that the A had gone on much longer than was previously told; instead of 4 months, it went on for 8 months, he would not share their details, and that he did in fact love her very much. I asked how was he able to continue to come home, love me, etc. during those 8 months; he said that was why he drank so much; i told him you still do and he said he guessed that once you start, you can't quit. He said he didn't see why he coulldn't love two women. I told him he could but he couldn't have a good marriage and expect it to be healty and still have feelings for another. I told him to roll out if he wanted to but he wouldn't be able to come back when he wanted, that we were tired of the roller coaster. I asked how he felt about her now & he said that she will always have a special place in his heart, and that ripped out what remained of mine. He said they had talked about marriage but knew it was not the right decision. He said it was no longer going on between them, she was with her family. I asked him and he said he just needed space and that the kids hate me anyway, I might as well leave; i told him that was just an excuse about the kids but do what he wanted. He said he was rolling out, he knew he would be broke, etc. but he needed to leave.

What really gets me is that we "were so happy last weekend" and have had such great moments; was it all a lie??? or just my wanting to believe it?

ML I do believe you were right again, we've not been in recovery, just full blow plan A all this time with me busting my tail to make him happy. I no longer think I can, since he still feel for someone else in that manner. I told him that I was going to see her and he got so angry, wanting to know why...I told him that I just needed to see her face and had a few things I wanted to say to her. He was livid over this, saying how much problems I caused before, and their relationship was over. Maybe so, but he hasn't gotten over her and I know when they see each other, she will return to his life!

He said that he loved me with so much more of his heart that he had ever given her. We went to bed and he held me as I cried and told me he would never leave me, " he wasn't going anywhere ". I hurt so much I made myself sick.

This morning he was back to being the jerk again as we were supposed to go vist my mom for Mothers Day but her mind is bad and she wouldn't talk to me on the phone. When I told him this he said that seals it we won't go, we'll stay here and clean up around the house, since he couldn't leave with it so dirty. I agree, but why does it seem to be my fault? I work full time too, and my job is much more demanding of my time than his, yet he still can't seem to pay our bills etc. leaves that all to me and lately I can't seem to manage the time, yet he has time for fun. We have 3 vacations planned during the next 6 weeks. What is in his head? Why does he continue to live a lie with us? Maybe this is our last conversation and he will move out this weekend -- what a great mothers day, huh?

My kids just left for school seeing me a wreck, I have to go to work, but I'm feeling like I'm losing it all over again. Just like dday. I don't think anything is going on between him & OW, i just don't think that our marriage can be saved. Maybe it takes him leaving to see what he wants? I guess it is time for me to start trying to do Plan B, somehow... I've been so worried about his potential contact with her when they move their office; now that I know he still cares about her, its a given. I thought he truly loved me, how could and can I continue to be so stupid? I think he really only cares about what makes him happy at the moment. I was actually believing that our marriage was better than ever, when in reality we only just having more fun. It was on the outside, not on the inside like his OW said what he did for her. That is what he doesn't do for me, fill me up on the inside. Will I ever stop loving him this much? How can he continue to hurt me so bad? Because I allow it? Sorry to ramble, just speaking my mind i guess, no one else to talk to tthis am and this pain is so great. I feel like I've been hit by a truck or train or something. My whole body aches.

Annie

Good morning. I can feel your pain. Hard to believe that someone can profess their love for you and hurt you so much.

My FWW still has not committed to Radical Honesty. My D Day was over two and a half years ago.

What you are feeling is normal. I can tell you this everytime I hit a trigger It takes me back to the fact she won't be honest with me. I resent the he11 out of it.

My FWW does the cancling thing too. I don't want to go there if we are not getting along etc. I realize this is her way of putting it back on me. I have a choice play nice, which means drop it, or she punishes me.

He cannot have his cake and eat it too. Of course he thinks he was in love with her don't they all. Infatuation is different then love.

Why can't he have two women, honestly thats the dumbest question I have ever heard. I would ask him if he wouldn't mind if you picked up a guy on the side then. Have one of those new fangled open marriages. BTW the answer will be "fine I don't care" or "do what you want". It won't be the honest "****** no".

I hope this helps a little.

It does help. Thank you. My only hope is that since he has never had to live his life without me, maybe that is the only thing that will make him decide for sure what it is that he wants. It has come to a point that he can either commit to me totally or go. If he still carries strong feelings for her, then so be it. He is free to go completely out of my life, and let me move forward, finally.

It hurts like ****** to say that but no more than it hurts to think he loves another woman. He has mentioned there are many other women out there for him, duh??, maybe that is part of this, we've been together since we were 16 (30 Years) and he needs more action? He is very handsome and charming and has always been so (one of the very reasons I married him).

He called earlier just wanting to forget it; he just doesn't understand that it is never forgotten. I could move on if I knew he was with me; now that I know he's not, I realize it will never go away. He said we'll talk tonight...

Is your M really good now and can you live w/o the RA? I don't think I can.