Easier said than done. The pain is so deep, how I could continue to love someone who is so oblivious to my needs. What is it about love that makes it hurt so much?

I believe he feels like he was & is still in love with her, which is the problem he has with opening up to me. To be honest he would have to admit it, and therein again is the problem. The truth.

Is it too much to ask him to move out until he can be honest with me? or is this what he wants, me asking him to leave?

Annie,

Dr. Harley says that you cannot work on the marriage if you are separated.

You can't force him to be honest with you. All you can do is ask him for what you need and provide an environment that encourages his honesty, rather than discouraging it. That is still no guarantee that you will receive it.

I understand your paradox. I'm in the same situation myself. Unfortunately for me, in the past I have done things to discourage my H from opening up to me, allowing my emotions to rule.

It's still his responsibility to be honest in our M, but it doesn't really make sense for me to behave in a manner that almost ensures I will not get what I need, does it?

Remember that your feelings are not a true source of support for you. Your feelings aren't right or wrong and they are your own. Your feelings are telling you something about yourself as you are at that particular moment , not necessarily more than that.

Feelings change. You can allow yourself to feel them, but remember to RESPOND , rather than REACT to situations with your H. You can respond by applying logic - what you think, rather than what you feel, based on the principles and guidelines you are learning here.

Yes, I know. But what do you mean that I provide an environment that encourages honesty? Just by being honest myself with him? still following plan A? It seems almost too late now. I think he is going to have to leave and see what life beholds before he will ever be able change or make a FINAL choice. He has too much to lose, & its hard for him to admit to us that he is giving up.

As the past couple days have passed, I am more sure that the contact never ceased. It may not have continued physically but otherwise it has. Should I expose this to OWH or is that just being vindictive?

If you have already exposed once, I would recommend not exposing again or it may appear vindictive and drive the S further away. If you haven't already, it may help

I am at work and don't have time right now for the response I'd like to give you. I will write more later, but for now...

If you have proof there is continued contact...

YES YOU SHOULD EXPOSE

Affairs thrive in secrecy.

Okay, Annie. This question would probably be best addressed by telling you what NOT to do, as experience is the best teacher and I have made some errors that have greatly contributed to the current state of things in my marriage.
Some of them are:

-When I would get details about the A, I would freak out, allowing my emotions to totally control me. I would lash out, scream, yell, throw things, tell him how much I hated him and how despicable he was for doing the things he did, tell him I was leaving, etc...

Given that being abandoned was a big fear for my H, you can probably see why my reactions made it more difficult for him to open up to me and be completely honest.

Now, you may not have reacted quite as strongly as I did when you received some details or information from your H, but if your H has difficulty being honest, chances are he probably has an issue with conflict-avoidance (which seems to be a common trait for WS's).

Try to think about YOUR behavior and things you might have done that may have made it more difficult for your H to be completely open with you. What is it that he fears in telling you? Perhaps you could ask him what YOU could do that would make him feel safer to be radically honest.

As I said before, it could have nothing to do with you and could be completely his own issue, but the only person you can control is YOU, so all you can do is your part of the teamwork of Recovery, which includes not only your work, but anything you can do to benefit the team.

Recovery is like a three-legged race. Until you both learn to work together to move forward together in your marriage, as a unit, you're going to keep falling down. You may pick yourselves back up again, but if either of you continually take actions that benefit only one of you - the result is that you fall down again.

Learn what benefits the team and then you've really got something - you move together, covering more ground and learning to do it with more efficiency and ease.

If there has has been continued contact, and you are sure of it, Recovery can't begin. If there is ANY contact - and it doesn't have to mean physical contact - the affair is still active.

If you want to fight for your M, then you must do whatever is within your power to end the A. This means exposure, followed by Plan A.

When you say that one of you needs to leave the household for him to come to his senses, you are likely driving him right back to her.

You must enact Plan A, BEFORE Plan B, in order for either Plan to be effective.

Just checking on you this morning, Annie. How are you doing today?

I've been really busy at work this morning & I so appreciate your concern. I'm acually doing okay, really thinking of your comments & trying to apply to my situation as I still believe in our M and think he does too. He just can't help himself.

However, my problem lies in the fact that I am NOT SURE that he is still in contact with her. My gut tells me he is, but I have no proof. I jumped the gun last year at this time without proof and it was a mess. In the end, it was what brought him home but I will not confront again w/o solid proof. He has been defensive & somewhat distant to me since my questions on Sunday, which leads me to believe continued contact exists. However, he continues to plan our vacations, home improvement projects, etc. So I'm considering my options (POA) as to how to get what I need & in the meantime, I plan to continue to work on our happiness together.

I will not force the issue of him leaving until I have 100% proof of continued contact. And, if & when this happens, this time the only way I will continue our relationship is my terms (plan b, NC,...) He will once again have to make a choice, the thought of all this makes me panic again but it is not nearly as bad as before.

I have some ideas of how to get the proof but will not list on here, just in case. Sometimes it amazes me how small the world is, and I stupidly told him how I obtained my proof before, so obviously that source is no longer available.

Annie

Yes, he can. He's the only one who can.



This sounds like a wise move to me. Keep in mind that just because Recovery isn't going perfectly, that doesn't necessarily mean the only explanation for it is that there has been continued contact.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of the same elements still being present within him that allowed him to have an A in the first place. Just because the A is over, it doesn't mean that those things change suddenly and all of a sudden they "see the light", which could explain the distance you mentioned over your questions.

But, I will not tell you not to listen to your gut, either. If it is telling you something, the best thing to do is pay attention. Snoop around and get some proof. You are obviously a smart girl and I know you can find a way.

I understand entirely what you mean about not being able to use the same resources for information because he knows how you've found out things in the past.



This sounds more like a boundary with regards to honesty, or the lack thereof, to me. Plans A and B and the term "NC" often get really misunderstood. The Plans are designed specifically to bring about an end to the A, and Plan B is completely ineffective unless you've done a really good Plan A first.

I want to be sure that you understand all the Plans completely before you enact them.

I'm glad you're doing okay today, Annie.

I try to not be paranoid of continued contact but when he becomes distant & not wanting to communicate, it is the first thing on my mind. It all comes back to if he had nothing to hide, why would he back off?

He told me last night that I seemed cold to him, which I wasn't being cold, I simply wasn't busting my A to compliment him or be always fun & friendly, like I have been since the A. During the past months, he has always been very careful about staying in contact with me during the day, at lunch, etc. This week has been different, he has "missed" my call, "received" my email too late...just doesn't add up. He asked me last night what was on my mind & I told him I would talk to him later, when we were alone. He asked again, I told him bad timing, we would talk later. (we were at our son's track meet)

After which, we went to a local restaurant & met friends for about an hour. When we left, I got in the truck, we kissed very sweet & came home. I followed him out to porch & he asked again, I said calmly, "I don't think you are 100% committed to our marriage" to which he replied "I have to pee & went inside, when he didn't return & I went in, the door was locked & had to go through garage. He was lying in bed, & I said what is up with that? He acted like he didn't know what I was talking about at first & then said "oh I thought you had come in behind me". Yeah right. I got in bed & he said that he just didn't know how much longer we would make it due to my distrust of him to which I said yes, I totally agree, we both have to be 100% committed to make our marriage work & since he was not able to be totally honest with me, I didn't see where he was committed to me. I told him again all I want is your honesty. He wouldn't talk anymore & went to sleep.

How could he have loved me so much up until now & change almost overnight? He also has been drinking much more than usual & unable to come home & just hang out with me like before. All these things tell me some of the contact has resumed, & that my questions on Sunday have made him uneasy that I am on to him. I think he thought I had some proof last night is why he kept questionning me.

Up until this time, he has been trying to (or at least appearing to) make me feel "safe" as I called it. Now it seems my needs are no longer important. I have felt like he has been trying to pick a fight all week, & so far I have not taken the bait other than my answer to him last night. Physical contact has also decreased to almost zilch, that is total turn-a-round.

If he won't talk to me about it, I don't know what else to do. I thought about sending him an email this morning after we get to work with a short version of the "jonathan?" letter, but part of me thinks it is not worth it right now as he is not listening to what I say anyway & that he is back in the fog for sure.

I understand what you said about making sure it is not a previous issue before the A, which has some substance. His desire to have his "own" privacy is one of those things, but again, I think that was because of the secrets. And he has them again.

I pray that God will reveal to me "proof" as I don't want to throw my marriage away if in fact there is not contact; but I know in my gut I'm right because the H I know & love would not continue to thrust this knife in my heart, knowingly. He has turned back into that other man that I don't know.

Thank you again for your support, this time around I am not going to confide in my neighbors, although my friends they are his too and its a small town, if you know what I mean. So you are my godsend & I can't thank you enough. I feel bad that I don't even know your story, its like my H (its all about me). Anyway I pray that yours continue to improve & thank God for your presence.

If he hasn't given you all the details you need, he DOES have something to hide. But you already know that - your instinct is telling you.

Remember not to rely completely on your instinct.
You have some pretty good-sized red flags here, Annie. Are you working on gathering your facts to be sure there isn't continued contact?



This is an attempt to blame-shift. That doesn't mean you have to serve that ball back to him, though. Accept your portion of the responsibility and leave what is his portion to him. They are two separate entities.


Red flag.



Red Flag



Red Flag

Gather your facts before responding to him.



Joseph's letter...and I think you're right. An attempt to get him to understand will probably be futile until he is ready to listen.


God may reveal proof to you, but He also gave you a good head on your shoulders. You can use it to find your own proof. I have considered giving you some ideas, but am a little reluctant to do so because you previously mentioned something about being cautious because someone you know may be reading here. If you would like ideas on how to gather information, there are many here (including myself) who can provide you with some.



The conflict-avoidance issue I mentioned, and the reason for the A are directly related. What I meant was that even if all contact has stopped and the A has not resumed (or never stopped), that doesn't mean the conflict-avoidance issues will disappear instantly. Likely the conflict-avoidance was a pretty strong contributing factor to why he chose to have an A in the first place.

By the same token, it also doesn't mean that the A has resumed, which is why you need to pay attention to your hunches and get your facts in order.


Don't you spend your time feeling bad about that...this board is a community resource for all of us - take some when you need it and put some back in when you can. Right now you have a need, so use it. I've used it too, and will continue to do so.

WOW, you brought tears to my eyes. And, I believe in all you have said. I really don't know that anyone involved in my situation reads this site, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. I'm the one trying to get ahead of the game & don't want to sabotage my own plan. I welcome any and all ideas - email to: anniet1960@hotmail.com

I have some ideas of my own that I would like to bounce off as well before I initiate any action.

Thanks again, and believe me when the time comes for me to reciprocate on this site, I will try. I know some of my emails can be quite rambling but the responses I get are crystal clear. Most of all I am really glad to not be crazy as I was beginning to think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I know you will. For now, the best advice I can give you is to read and study and arm yourself with knowledge.



I know just what you mean. I felt the same way when I first arrived.

I even remember when I first read the term "trigger" here. It was validating to know that I wasn't the only one who had experienced this and that, in fact most everyone does, and to have apt name to describe them. Before that, I had been describing them to my H as "the bad thoughts".

You have mail.

I noticed some differences in our relationship yesterday that I haven't seen before. After DDAY & subsequent reconciliations, it seems as if we have been through cycles. As I read MB more & more, it all seems to be fairly common as to some of the ways people try to heal. I went from disappointment in my H for lack of responsibility, to desperate to make it work (after dday), to now, disillusioned & distrust.

Last evening, he (after being on the golf course all day)started whining about how his kids hated him. This was due to he missed our daughter looking beautiful & leaving for prom. I spent the day doing housework & helping her get ready for the big event. He was late coming home & missed her. Although since he was somewhat drunk, it was probably for the best. The kids don't hate him of course, but he can be so mean to them at times & they don't forget what he says & he doesn't always remember.

He said he wished that we had gone to the beach like the other parents after the dance... well, you can't do that and play golf all weekend. Its all about choices. I guess what I am seeing is this is the man that I became angry with over his issues & ****** at until he began to withdraw totally from family life. All this was when OW was around him (during the work day). Of course, this is the time when he was wonderful to me as well, I just work somewhere else. Now he is getting back to acting like the man who kept disappointing me, who has now taken away my security & maybe I can now see the whole picture.

As soon as I know the truth of his faithfulness in NC, I will be able to make my choices, as I cannot & will not continue to live in this type of limbo.

How is your investigative work coming?

Do you have confirmation as to whether there is continued contact or not?

Nothing so far. I have not yet received and/or accomplished the things that I need to help determine the continued contact; however, he did tell me to go for counseling if I thought it would help me as he felt like a caged animal when I questioned him that Sunday, and didn't like how it made him feel. Whatever...how it makes me feel.

OTOH, he is no longer distant and actually has done a 180 with his attitude/attention toward me. I haven't brought up anything else and will just continue my quest to satisfy myself of his loyalty and integrity on this matter.

i will let you know.

Annie,

Thanks for your reply to my thread. I am feeling much the same as you right now. I don't have proof just gut feelings and when I talk about this with him he responds by saying " we can't always live like this, what more can I do to make you beleive me? And my answer is give me more information about this relationship you were in and he won't do it. He did show me a picture of her but, I cant remember what she looks like and wouldn't recognize her if she walked down the street. I feel like I'm going crazy sometime because I can't relax and be happy that we are trying to work this out. I feel your anguish.

I've been out lately & just read your post. A picture huh? I would've probably ripped it & burned it (like a kid). I still only have a picture of a beast in my head at present but I am going to to go see her real soon. I just have to get it over with and I know that will help me put it behind me. If it backfires, oh well, I'll deal with that like all the rest of this crap.

My FWH has opened up a tiny bit, not so much about OW, but more about his feelings. He "says" it wasn't so much about her as it was the sex & excitement of the A. I told him about the fog and he agreed that was exactly what it was like. Maybe this is a start?? who knows? I just get so tired of always wondering if he is for real.

I know what you mean about going crazy, I am there!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I just read my last post from a month or so ago and guess what, he lied. I asked for some more radical honesty last night and told him I had to have it to move on. After saying that he just needed to roll out for 6 months or so bc I would never get past the A. Again I said just be honest. He told me that the A had gone on much longer than was previously told; instead of 4 months, it went on for 8 months, he would not share their details, and that he did in fact love her very much. I asked how was he able to continue to come home, love me, etc. during those 8 months; he said that was why he drank so much; i told him you still do and he said he guessed that once you start, you can't quit. He said he didn't see why he coulldn't love two women. I told him he could but he couldn't have a good marriage and expect it to be healty and still have feelings for another. I told him to roll out if he wanted to but he wouldn't be able to come back when he wanted, that we were tired of the roller coaster. I asked how he felt about her now & he said that she will always have a special place in his heart, and that ripped out what remained of mine. He said they had talked about marriage but knew it was not the right decision. He said it was no longer going on between them, she was with her family. I asked him and he said he just needed space and that the kids hate me anyway, I might as well leave; i told him that was just an excuse about the kids but do what he wanted. He said he was rolling out, he knew he would be broke, etc. but he needed to leave.

What really gets me is that we "were so happy last weekend" and have had such great moments; was it all a lie??? or just my wanting to believe it?

ML I do believe you were right again, we've not been in recovery, just full blow plan A all this time with me busting my tail to make him happy. I no longer think I can, since he still feel for someone else in that manner. I told him that I was going to see her and he got so angry, wanting to know why...I told him that I just needed to see her face and had a few things I wanted to say to her. He was livid over this, saying how much problems I caused before, and their relationship was over. Maybe so, but he hasn't gotten over her and I know when they see each other, she will return to his life!

He said that he loved me with so much more of his heart that he had ever given her. We went to bed and he held me as I cried and told me he would never leave me, " he wasn't going anywhere ". I hurt so much I made myself sick.

This morning he was back to being the jerk again as we were supposed to go vist my mom for Mothers Day but her mind is bad and she wouldn't talk to me on the phone. When I told him this he said that seals it we won't go, we'll stay here and clean up around the house, since he couldn't leave with it so dirty. I agree, but why does it seem to be my fault? I work full time too, and my job is much more demanding of my time than his, yet he still can't seem to pay our bills etc. leaves that all to me and lately I can't seem to manage the time, yet he has time for fun. We have 3 vacations planned during the next 6 weeks. What is in his head? Why does he continue to live a lie with us? Maybe this is our last conversation and he will move out this weekend -- what a great mothers day, huh?

My kids just left for school seeing me a wreck, I have to go to work, but I'm feeling like I'm losing it all over again. Just like dday. I don't think anything is going on between him & OW, i just don't think that our marriage can be saved. Maybe it takes him leaving to see what he wants? I guess it is time for me to start trying to do Plan B, somehow... I've been so worried about his potential contact with her when they move their office; now that I know he still cares about her, its a given. I thought he truly loved me, how could and can I continue to be so stupid? I think he really only cares about what makes him happy at the moment. I was actually believing that our marriage was better than ever, when in reality we only just having more fun. It was on the outside, not on the inside like his OW said what he did for her. That is what he doesn't do for me, fill me up on the inside. Will I ever stop loving him this much? How can he continue to hurt me so bad? Because I allow it? Sorry to ramble, just speaking my mind i guess, no one else to talk to tthis am and this pain is so great. I feel like I've been hit by a truck or train or something. My whole body aches.