I have posted in “Other Topics”, so if you want more background, you can check out the thread "How to cope when a spouse in unsure?"

The short of my story is that my wife and I had very independent lives. She worked a full-time job, had a band that performed every weekend and a couple of other commitments that took up her time. When she had a free night on the weekend, she would go out with friends. I commute 1 hour 15 min to and from work everyday, not to mention that I work for 9 or 10 hours. So when I get home, I want to relax. I was fine with her going out without me.

A couple of months ago, her band broke up, her other activities ended, and she was spending more time at home. Two weeks ago, she told me that she wasn’t feeling in love with me anymore. She said that she feels that I am such a good husband, and hates that she is hurting me. She wasn’t sure at first whether she was depressed being at home, or being at home with me. Later, I started to realize that my not participating in her activities (even though she knew I supported her completely), had left an emotional need unfulfilled. She said that now, she just prefers to do things by herself. Our problem was that she didn’t want to force me to participate in her life, I didn’t want to ask to go out because I didn’t want to impose. We have been struggling through these last two weeks. It came out that she has developed an interest in another man. She has been completely forthright about things. They talked about their feelings for each other last week (he did not know she was married up to that point). I have come to realize that we had communication problems and that her feelings towards him only precipitated things. She is a woman of integrity, so I do not believe she will pursue anything with him unless we end things. That being said, I do realize that this has already developed into an EA.

The night that she spoke to him, she met with him at 7 PM. She was very definite about not having a timeline, because she wasn’t even sure if he had feelings for her. She didn’t get home until 11 PM. I began to drink when it got late…I’m not a drinker and I know it clouded my judgment. I knew nothing physical happened, but it hurt me that she was being so open with him, and would barely speak to me. When she got home, I flipped out. It really bothers me because she felt threatened, even though I would never lay a hand upon her. I just didn’t feel it was appropriate for a married woman to be with a single man on a “date”. I understood about the meeting, but the later it got, it turned into a date. I eventually collected myself. We both conceded each other’s points. Hers was that she never set a timeline, because she didn’t know what would happen. Mine was that it was inconsiderate to be out so late when she knew I would be at home going crazy. I felt that I was being very understanding by not protesting her having this “date” in the first place. We did end up talking, and she was just more confused because obviously he said he has feelings for her. He told her about imagining having all the things with her that I want with her too. The next day, he talked to her and felt bad. He said if he were me, he’d kick his butt. My wife explained that I am not mad at him, and that I know this is our issue. He also told her that he couldn’t live with himself if he broke up a marriage. She told him that would never happen. She knows that if she leaves me, that anything with him is an unknown. She would only leave me if she no longer wants to be with me. I may sound gullible, but I do believe that she is telling the truth, because she has been very honest so far. She hasn’t even really given me any reason to have hope. That is just her nature, she cannot fake things.

She was going to go to her parents on Thursday, so Wednesday evening, I read her a letter I composed about everything that was going on in my head and heart. I pointed out that I know we had communication problems, and that I needed to make more of an effort to participate in her life. I know that I made mistakes, but that I want to change and will if given the opportunity. I laid everything out on the line. What I feel about us and our future. I think this has been so hard because, for me, it came out of the blue. She never told me how she was feeling until it was too late. One thing that is tormenting me is her reaction. As I read it to her, I felt like she was really considering everything I said. We ended up having a good evening, and even a good morning together before she left. I was in such a good mood on Thursday…able to concentrate for once. I think I was starting to have hope. Then, my mind started playing tricks on me. Now, I imagine her face that night and think she was probably just waiting for me to finish and try to be courteous, and we probably got along so well because she was just happy she was getting away from me. I don’t know what is fantasy and what is reality. I keep driving myself crazy. I asked if I could text message her, she said she was going to be out of communication. I asked from everybody. She said yes. I kept checking the details of her cell phone on-line, and noticed Friday night she had a few text messages. There has been no activity since then, though, so I am pretty sure it was friends just checking in on her. It makes me feel better that she is holding to her word. I have never “snooped” on her before, but she has never given me reason.

All I do is think about her. I don’t know what she is thinking about. I don’t know if she misses me. I feel like she is just going to give up on this so easily. It’s not as if we had a bad marriage, we just need to make things better. But I can’t force her. I walk around the house, and everything reminds me of her. I keep thinking about all of the plans we had. I have nothing but good memories. Even she said that I am her best friend. I feel like she is ready to bale out when all we hit is a speed bump, not a wall. I really think we can work this out. I believe that never do you always feel “in love”, but as long as you have a solid foundation (common beliefs and goals, friendship, etc.), you can get through the hard times. I also think that she is influenced because she has witnessed so many bad and unhappy marriages, that she is scared of falling into one herself. Am I committing a “disrespectful judgment?” I have tried to be very understanding because I am already divorced once and I was in her situation. She has commended me for listening to her and not judging her. I still her that I will love her no matter what. She can’t believe that I’m not mad at her. I tell her that I understand, and that I just want her to be happy. I feel bad because I have been needy. She has told me that I am handling myself better than she could imagine. I guess I have been Plan A’ing it without even knowing it. I want to try harder though…now that I know what Plan A really is. The only thing is that she said that she will probably want to separate when she gets back. Part of me is scared of separating; the other part thinks that maybe time away will help her. At first, I was conciliatory, but agree with Dr. Harley, I will just be “out of sight, out of mind.” I know before I got divorced, I just wanted to separate to make things easier on me. I think when she gets back I want to negotiate with her about how we can stay together. Is that wrong? I want to ask her, “What will you need to keep you from moving out?” I think we may be able to work this out. She gets back Monday, and I leave for my parents on Wednesday. It will still drive me crazy, but I think it will give her more of the time she feels that she needs. I still imagine her coming home and telling me that she is sorry and that she wants to work on things. I hate doing that to myself, because I know it won’t happen and I’m only giving myself false illusions.

The thing that has really bothered me is that right now she is trying to figure out if she wants to work on it. She wants to see if there is anything there. I hate this because I think she should be saying, “Let’s try to work on this.” I use the analogy that it’s like giving someone a problem and them deciding if they wanted to work on it before doing anything. The way to solve a problem is to dive in and struggle though it (sorry, I’m an educator). If you have to, go talk to someone with expertise for help. Right now, she is against counseling because a counselor is there “for you to work it out.” She doesn’t want someone that she feels has an agenda for you to work it out. She just wants someone to listen to her without biased. Surprisingly, I have probably been the closest thing to that because I have been in her shoes, and I try to detach myself from my feelings when she talks about hers. I really want her to go through a lot of the questionnaires with me because I think this will give us some insight into each other. But like I said, she doesn’t know if she wants to work it out, so it will only push her away right now.

I know that I need to change, even if we don’t stay together. I have learned a lot about myself and relationships. But I want to continue with her. I know it won’t be easy, but it is worth it to try. I think we have that solid foundation, we just need to repair a few cracks and not let it crumble. She is my world, and I don’t want to lose that. I consider her family my family. I want us to begin our own family together. I what us to grow old together and to be that annoying couple that still acts like they are newlyweds. We were like that until recently. I am willing to do whatever it takes. Am I going about this the wrong way? I know I have to prepare myself for the worst, and I have been. I have to stop thinking about a future that may not be there and concentrate on the present. I guess what I am looking for is advice/inspiration. Don’t hold back, I can take anything you can throw at me.

Another thought I forgot. I feel like her judgment is being clouded by the allure of the new relationship with the other guy. Is this reasonable? If so, is it possible us to overcome that? I know how exciting it is to start something new, but there is a lot to be said for establishing something deeper, such as what we have. I don't think it is worth throwing away for a possibility. That is why I would never consider another woman. I know what I have with my wife goes much deeper than initial attraction. I feel like she is my soulmate.

Lost,

About your other thought...yes, she is following the fantasy of a clean slate. Plan A gives you the choice to BECOME a clean slate for your marriage. To change yourself for yourself...be new, safe, no LBs, making love a choice you act on.

This combats a fantasy because you make it your reality. You are her husband, have history (many stored acts of love and harmful choices), and you have depth of knowledge of one another.

All these things can be flipped over into bad perspectives because of what is stored, held against and known. Become clean, safe.

LA

You're "buying in" to your WW's affair babble, Lost. She needs to justify and rationalize why it's okay for her to go outside of your marriage. If she can keep you percolating on the back-burner, buying in to her reasoning...she has the freedom to explore the potential of her inappropriate 'friendship' with the OM.

It's up to you to set some boundaries on what behavior you're willing to tolerate. If you're not willing to do that as part of your Plan A, you can probably expect more of the same behavior you've seen so far.

Check out the links for Reverse Babble on any of Orchid's posts. If you start turning these rationalizations back on her, you'll poke some holes in her strategy.

Lost, Plan A is a two part endeavor and in order for it be effective, both parts must be executed. Trying to meet her needs and avoiding lovebusters are very good, but they alone will not facilitate the end of the affair. And you are not going to get very far if you don't start working on busting up this affair. That is the GOAL of Plan A, after all.

It is important for you to do everything in your power to make her affair as uncomfortable as possible. You should look for every opportunity to cause as MUCH CONFLICT as possible in her affair. That means NEVER EVER condoning or giving your blessing to her "dates" with an OM. That should NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. Appeasement of wrongdoing will help destroy your marriage, so please never make that mistake again.

The most effective weapon you have in your arsenal against this affair is EXPOSURE. Exposure is RUINOUS to affairs becasue affairs thrive on secrecy. Just imagine turning the light on in a crack house. Who would want to sit there and smoke crack with your family members looking on in horror? Similarly, it takes all the FUN out of adultery when the affairees are forced to see how sleazy they look through the eyes of others.

Exposure causes great conflict in the affair and sometimes the OP just moves on because they don't want the trouble.

So, I would suggest making up a target list of folks to whom you will expose and doing it all in the same day. That will cause the maximum blow to the affair. Good targets are WW's parents, siblings, Human Resources if a workplace affair, OM's wife, if any, OM' parents, your family. I would simply tell that your W is in an affair with Joe XYZ and you are trying to save your marriage as you love your W very much. Ask for their support in helping you acheive that goal.

This will cause a nuclear explosion that will be devastating to the affair. It is sure to hasten the death of the affair by removing the secrecy which makes it no fun anymore.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Almost ALL WS's want you to believe that their affair has nothing to do with the unraveling of the marriage. Please understand that this is an attempt to point the finger of blame BACK AT YOU and away from the affair. Common sense dictates that there is NOTHING, barring physical abuse, that is as DAMAGING to a marriage as an affair.

So don't allow her to distract you from the fact that her is affair is what is killing your marriage. This is what she wants and you should not accommodate her in this little game of blameshifting.

I would also recommend that you quit playing Mr.Chummy with the OM. He is not your "friend" he is your MORTAL ENEMY who is firing on your marriage. He is trying to destroy your marriage, my friend. So, don't allow the enemy to believe you are not upset that he is trying to destroy you. That will cause him and your wife to DISRESPECT you.

If you think the OM would dump your W why not call h8im up and inform him that the affair is destroying your marriage and that you will do everything in your power to SAVE IT. And then BACK UP YOUR WORDS. Let him know he will have the fight of the century on his hands. Ask him "what are your intentions with my wife?"

I must admit, I am slightly confused by this. I agree with what you are saying, but, like I said, I truly believe in my wife's integrity. I do not condone the EA, but I know my inaction appears to do so. The problem is, she hasn't exactly been "hiding it". She has told her friend. She was going to tell her mother. I don't know if she is just trying to head off the appearance of improper behavior. As I said, I went through it from her side. She actually became my girlfriend while I was going through my divorce. I asked her, "I just ask you to respect me and not do anything with him until things are over between us." (I realize this was a mistake because I am showing willingness to end it and not reinforcing working on the marriage). She threw it back in my face that I was with her before my divorce was final. This isn't the only time she has thrown my past in my face. When we talked about separation, I mentioned that we should still see each other. She said that I didn't see my ex when we were separated. Do you think there is some resentment from her about my past, or is she just looking for justification...or both? I want to believe in her. The fact that she has been open about things shows me that she is not gone...but another part of me says that she is just doing it for her own conscience.

Lost, let me assure you that if the affair is exposed - BY YOU - to a list of influential people in her life, it will inflict great damage on her affair. She likely doesn't want you to tell her mother, so she can tell it "her way." If she tells someone, I assure you the story will be spun in a way that rationalizes her affair. And there is simply no justification for an affair. She is already rationalizing the affair to you, you can see that with your own eyes. She is not being honest with herself, much less with you.

It very much appears that you are condoning this and I am afraid that appeasement will get you nowhere except perhaps divorce court.

If you want to save your marriage, then you are going to have to do some work, my friend. No one else is going to do it for you.

I imagine her friend was a SAFE one to tell and probably responded with some mindless pap about "do whatever makes you happy, girlfriend!" This is what most female "friends" say.

On the other hand, a WS will AVOID any REAL friend they know will kick them up the backside, versus the fake variety who only tell you what you want to hear.

Lost, here is another thing I want you to consider. Women do not respect men they can run over. Often, our feelings of love are directly connected to the respect we feel. She will not respect you if you allow her to run over you with her affair. She will not respect you for appeasing her. She will respect you for fighting for your marriage and doing what you can to save it.

How does the fact that she's telling you about the affair mean that she has "integrity"? People who have integrity live up to their promises. Your WW made sacred vows to uphold you in the marriage. Breaking her spoken word....lacks "integrity".


The willingness to end the relationship altogether is nothing for you to fear as a mistake. Would you really stay married to a woman who has an affair every couple of years jsut because she knows you'll tolerate it?

This girl needs to know that she can't keep both you and the OM. Otherwise, there's no impetus for her to end the affair. Plan A isn't about being a doormat. People can't walk on you if you refuse to lie down.

And cake-eaters can't eat cake when you take it off their plate. There will likely come a point at which you'll have to do that. Best she sees it on the horizon now.


It was okay with her back then...but now it's not? What does that tell you?



"Believing in her" would be okay if what you were believing in wasn't affair babble. She's in the fog. Her truths are only justifications, indeed used to salve her own conscience.

Lost,

About you having an EA with your current wife when you were not divorced from your previous one...

These are the consequences of our poor choices. She owns half of them...she knew you weren't divorced. You own half. This is where listen and repeat really comes in strong,

"I hear you believe you are doing what I did, so that you are justified in having an affair, is that correct?"

O&H: "I now know what I did hurt myself, my wife and you by having an EA with you when I was still married. I have learned how that choice harms everyone."

Have you learned, Lost? Have you replaced the belief inside of you that people are replaceable? That they can cause, cure and control you? That you can do the same to them? That it isn't who you are, but picking the right partner? We hold the cure within us...it isn't replacing people that makes us happy; it is replacing our beliefs.

LA

I agree with this assessment. The friend she told is not happy in her marriage and is sticking with it for the children. She also has already told this friend before the OM that she was starting to feel unhappy. This goes to my theory about unhappy marriages. She sees people unhappy, and figures it's better to duck and run at the first sign of trouble. On the other hand, she told another friend that we were having trouble, but not the whole story. And yet another friend has noticed her mood, but doesn't really know what is going on. I think she feels this third friend will not condone what she is doing, but I am not sure.

Another note about the "date". This was before I was familiar with Plan A, but I bought her some flowers, put a note on it that said "Don't worry. No matter what I will always love you." I set this in front of the door so she would get them before coming in the house. The only problem is that I exploded...so I think I lost any of the goodwill I may have created. She admitted that she felt calmer when she got the flowers. Now I know that I shouldn't have had the "Don't worry" part. I should have just made it about us. Tomorrow, I was planning on going to the airport and putting some more flowers in her car. She has always loved flowers, and I think no matter what she has been thinking, this will soften her heart before she comes home. Kill her with kindness. I have always been a loving person with her, and I think my continuing to be so, it makes it hard on her. I don't want to make it easy. If I show apathy, it will make it easier for her. Thank you for the advice, and keep it coming.

Lost, killing her with kindness does not mean you don't tell her how cruel and painful her actions are. If you reward her mean behavior with flowers, she will go "huh?" and simply lose respect for you. On the other hand, there are times when it would be good to send her flowers because it sends the message that you love her and that you are willing to forgive her.

But I think you have that part DOWN extremely well, don't you? The critical piece you are missing is the STICK part of the Plan A. That is achieved by exposing the affair in a strategic, intelligent manner, being FIRM about your boundaries and letting her know that her actions are causing you great pain.

She also needs to know that you will do what it takes to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. Otherwise, she will go on thinking you don't care if you continue to do nothing to save it.

Lost, you also need to get your hands on Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley and read it as fast as you can. They sell it on this website with fast, cheap shipping.

If you know that she's putting a positive 'spin' on her actions, then why not expose with the truth as ML has suggested? She can't put a spin on the facts.

The feedback she's getting from the important people in her life is colored by the lack of correct data. That's why the truth is enlightening.

Is WW going to like it? Nope. She'll go off like a ballistic missile. But at the minimum, she'll start getting accurate feedback from the people around her.

I know it's scary to contemplate. But the truth is the truth afterall.

I have learned that people are not replaceable. I keep telling my W that you cannot compare situations. My first marriage was never meant to be. I felt compelled to marry. I was neven happy being married. I stayed with my first wife (when she was my girlfriend) for all the wrong reasons. We had different outlooks on life. We had different goals. We would have made each other miserable.

With my current wife, however, we have had nothing but love and happiness up until now. We have common goals. We both have dreams. I think our dreams may be the sticking point. She feels "inspired" by OM. She also feels "inspired" by her sister and another friend because they do whatever they feel they need to. I think my wife is scared of a "conventional" life. She feels she is sacrificing. I think she is making herself believe that I am something I am not. She has opinions about my beliefs that aren't me...but she won't explore them. I want her to pursue her dreams. I will support her the whole way. I will never hold her back. Seeing her shine is what makes me happy. I think she is looking at me as a anchor...when in reality I am her rock.

I also agree with MelodyLane. There is a difference between loving and caring, and being a doormat. I have let her walk all over me. I guess I never thought she would do that to me. I can be caring, understanding and listen, but I can also do my own thing and act as though my life is going on even in the midst of this storm.

Thank you so much everybody. I have been trying to do this myself, but I know that I need help, especially from people who will force me to look in the mirror. This marriage is worth it, and I will do whatever it takes.

She definitely is getting feedback from people who will say it is okay...or at least not judge. She read me a letter that she was going to read to her mother. She mentioned OM and why she was interested in him. Then she said, "This is the last thing I am going to say about him...". I realize now that she didn't want to add too much information. Either way, even if she comes clean, she has always expected her mother of dreaming about having an affair. This is not to say her mother WILL condone her thoughts, but maybe the letter is her way of testing the waters. Otherwise, if her mother doesn't appear to be receptive, she can deflect that the bigger problem is somewhere else...which I agree it is, but I also know that we will never be able to get through this as long as she holds on to ideas of her and OM.

ML,

You are right. I do have the carrot part of Plan A down very well. It is very easy for me because I do love her, I want to understand her, and I want to work it out. But I have to get the stick...I need to buck up and realize that I have to stand up for myself. Any gains that I may make with my kindness are being lost by my appeasing.

Another thought about Plan A. Part of it is fulfilling unmet ENs. Probably her biggest one is that I don't go out with her. How can I meet this need if she is unwilling to let me fulfill it? Or will just me showing more interest start the process?

Your WW is not the first nor the last to take the "honest" approach to Infidelity. It's an old gambit.

But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a duck. Cheating is cheating.

The difference between an EA and a 'friendship' is that the WS is giving away to another person what is promised in marriage to only her spouse.

Call your MIL and give her the facts. She can't assist you if she doesn't know what's going on.