Herb -

Sorry it has taken me so long to relpy. I have been very busy at work and just haven;t ad the time.

I agree with Daggie and Just Learning about how you are trying to hard to get her to look. You are looking at this sith and breaking it doen far too much.

YOU NEED TO STOP THIS RIGHT AWAY ! Its going to drive you CRAZY.

The bottom line is, she is going to do what she wants to do. You can accept it and deal with it, you can reject it and blow this whole thing up, or you can ignore it and wait it out and see what happens. Its up to you.

But, you have to understand that you have no more control of what happens in the future than you do what happened in the past.

What I am trying to get across to you is that same thing Daggie said earlier. You need to start working on YOU.

I have given you some very good places to start but you still make excuses as to why it won't work and how she will react. The truth is, no one knows how she will react to anything except her. All you can do is control you and your responses.

If I seem to be coming down hard on you, that is not what I am trying to do. I really am trying to help you and spare you some of the mistakes I made.

Let me give you a recent example of my sitch.

I dropped off my DS to her the other day. She had pretty much "closed the door" on me again. I understood why because she had opened it a liitle recently for the fisrt time.

She was short with me on the phone and her attitude had changed when I spoke to her on the phone.

So, I go to drop-off DS at her place. What does she do? Fisrt she attempts to push on of my buttons by totally ignoring me when I arrive. She knows it really bothers me b/c we talked about it alot when we were together.

Second, she snapped at me twice when I was doing two normal things.

My take? Easy. She ignored me knowing it would get me upset. Once I was upset, she could then pick a fight with me easily. And then she could react to that and reaffim her position of me being not right for her.

Problem was, I let it roll right off me. And what does she do? She changes tatics. She snaps at me knowing again that its one of my buttons.

Again, I let it roll off and ignore it. It fact, both times she snapped, I smiled and calmly stated what I was doing. She changed her direction right away both times.

See? This is what I am talking about. I reacted in a totally different way then she expected. I used to get real upset when she did those things. She knew she could "bait" me if she did them. Only thing was, it didn't work this time.

when I left, I said and did all he usual things I normally do when I leave her place. Acted like it never happened.

Was I mad? You bet! Was I frustrated? Of course! But, did she see any of it? NO WAY ! I just gave her a clear message that I am strong enough now that you can no longer get me upset UNLESS I LET YOU ! What a brillant sign of strength (remember, woman like strong men).

Lo and behold, she calls me that night to discuss something and she has a whole diffent way about her. She was polite, respectful and actually showed a little bit of caring about how I felt.

See my point?

You don't have to date anyone to show that you are moving on. All you need to do it get a life. Thats what I am doing. You need to show her that life goes on.

I haven't dated even though my W has. I just don't feel I'm ready. I will know whan I am b/c I will start to fel like I am ready.

take it one day at a time Herb. You are looking at every little piece of this and trying to twist it to fit.

Just Learning is right, this is not going to happen overnight. You are in for the long-hauk here and it could take a while to work out.

These problems have taken a long time to develop and they are going to take a long time to fix. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN TOMMORROW.

Thats why we are telling you to get busy with something. Do something to take your mind off of this for a while.

I know it seems like you can;t do it right now. I thought I would never be able to go 5 minutes without thinking about her. I am actually up to a couple of hours of not thinking everyday now. And I have been working on it for 6 months!!

Remeber Herb- either way, YOU will survive this. You can take the sitch and make it a chance to grow, or you can let it completey consume you and become unfunctional.

But, its a HE!!VA fight inside, and you are the only one who can fight it. THe good news is, you know you the best, so you also know how to win !!

Like the others said, BE STILL ... In the heart and in the mind ...

Show your love by being there but don't crowd her ..

Ignore your feelings of wanting to blow this up. I am finding that half the things I thought happened, haven't ever taken place.

DON'T LET YOUR MIND PLAY TRICKS ON YOU ...

Keep the path. Focus on YOUR goals. Let the rest come out iin the wash and the pieces fall as they will ...

You will find much more inner peace this way instead of trying to fight it ...

STAY ON THE PATH .....

Sorry, its this is harsh. I am just trying to help ....

Daggi and Still,

Good timing on the posts. Pretty much answered what I was about to post next.

I just went over to pick up the dog to watch her tonight while my STBXW works a part-time job tonight. She felt bad leaving the dog home all day while she was at her first job and then leaving her at home alone all night as well.

Well, I went over and guess what I found... a condom wrapper on the night stand next to her bed in plain view. On the nightstand that I made for her as part of her birthday present of renovating the bedroom 4 months ago as she'd always wanted.... In the bedroom that I busted my [censored] painting... in the bedroom that I busted my [censored] my entire life to have... that I stayed out of trouble my entire life to have. I don't know how long its been there or which guy it was. It doesn't really matter. I literally fell to my knees when I saw it. I'm the strongest person I know.. my emotions never show. I never cry in front of anyone. I cried in front of my wife twice the entire time I knew her, both times were when we were facing splitting up.

I had assumed she'd already slept with the first guy but never had any proof... never had any way to know. She even admitted it to me that she was trying to get him to sleep with her when I confronted her about the computer logs I had a couple of days after I moved out. This shouldn't surprise me, but it still does. It still rips my heart out. I can literally feel a knife digging into an empty hole in my chest. I feel empty. I literally cannot stop the images in my head of her having sex with some guy. Its tearin me up and its more than I can take. I ... I just can't take it.

Yesterday I'd decided its time to move on and let things play out for themselves. I had made my decision and thought I had drawn a line where she is in my past and not in my present, but may be in my future. Well, this feels awfully current.

One thing that bugs me is that I called her cell last night like she asked and she didn't answer. I called the house and left a message on the answering machine. Then this morning on her way to work, she calls me and asks if I just called and says her phone just popped up a message saying she missed a call.

Well, today when I go over there, she'd already checked my message I left on the answering machine BEFORE she left the house. Why would she lie about that the next morning? I assume the guy was over there last night and thats why she didn't answer. She knew from that message that I was going over there today to pick up the dog. She left the bedroom door closed, which she never does, which made me want to see what she was hiding. So I opened it and there was the wrapper. Its almost like she did it on purpose to test me... to see how I'd react... to see if I flip out and ask for a divorce.

Well, I'm not going to react, just like you said. I'm just going to do my own thing and ignore her. I do think I'm going to ask her to take my name off the house and file for divorce here in a few weeks when it doesn't seem like I'm just reacting to the condom wrapper. I'm moving to Plan B. No more contact after I take the dog back tomorrow. Tonight, I'm going out and getting hammered with some buddies I know won't let me react to her. Why? Because I feel like having some fun.

By the way, don't worry about harsh. I appreciate harsh. I'm known for being harsh when people ask me to be. Its a good thing in my book.

Herb --

Slow down a minute. Going out and getting "hammered" is only going to comlicate things more. All that happens is you wake up the next day feeling the same feelings with your W and you have a hang-over to go with it.

Funny, I have a very, very stressful job. Its almost all mental stress. My profession has a very high divorce rate and a very high suicide rate. We also have a very big alcohol abuse rate.

Recently, a few co-workers have lost their jobs (even 2 were arrested) for alcohol problems due to family problems. My boss, knowing my sitch, pulled me aside a while ago and asked about me and how I was doing.

I told her my story and why I was not going to drink. See, I already want to go over to her place at 2am and bang on her door and beg her to come back. But, being sober keeps my head on straight and stops me. It stops me from calling, going to her place, e-mailing, etc. Alcohol will do nothing but lessen my resistence to do the right thing. And doing the right thing is more important than easing the pain for a few hours. The pain won't kill me and it won't last as long as me losing my job or getting an arrest record. It will only give her one more (big) reason not to come back.

Enough with the lecture....

Now, about what you found. You are right about not reacting. She probably left it there on purpose. She shut the door knowing you would open it because she never closes it. She led you right to it.

Why? I guess is she wants to see how you react. She is pushing your buttons. She already knows how you feel about her with someone else. She also is awaiting a reaction.

Don't give her a excuse. As hard as it is, as much as it kills you with your thoughs, DO NOT REACT !!

She will know you found it. She will know you were in the bedroom. You probably left the door open and she remembers it was shut. Its not like your blind...

Just take some breaths and let it go. YOU WILL BE ABLE TO OVERCOME THIS.

I know it seems like the end of the world. I know that great picture of her in your head of being pure and only with you is shattered. But, the fact is, alot of woman (and men) must experience other people before they truly know what they want.

This is what unconditional love is about Herb. Its loving someone no matter how much they hurt you. No matter how much they don't love back.

I have said it before, it better that she is exploring now, then after you have been married for 10 or 20 years. It will hurt 10 times more then..

Many, many marriages came back from this. Many recover and go on to be better that they ever were. You can get by this.

No talk about the taking your name off the house. No talk about why she didn't answer the phone. Just let it go .. All of it ....

FYI, after telling my boss about my sitch and what I was doing to fix it, she told me something she has never spoken of in 15 years. She told me that her and her H went through the same thing as me.

She did exactly what I am doing. She used some of the same things here on her husband. And she did it before any book was written about the subject.

I was floored. She and him always seemed so in love. I thought they had the "perfect" 30 year marriage. You should here how they talk to each other, they are so kind and sweet to each other.

He lived with the OW too for almost a year. And he and her were each others firsts.

My point? She and him made it..

I never would have known if she wouldn't have told me. She laughed at me when I looked so suprised. She asked me, "Never would have thought,huh?"

Dang on right- but she and him did it. They pulled through and NEVER EVER has she used it against him. Why ? becuase she loves him enough to forgive him. She said sometimes she had to do it 100 times a day. Now, she says, she never thinks about it..


SLOW DOWN HERB -- take a breath -- Find something to occupy your mind. Let some of the steam off.

YMCA close by? They have grat punching bags.... Hit it until you drop. Then you will be too tired to think about it..

STOP THE THOUGHTS.. You can control this even though you think you can't..

I have been where you are. I have felt what you are feeling. I know the pain ...

But trust me, don't make the mistake of going out and possibly doing something stupid. Don't react.

BE STILL HERB ..... VERY VERY STILL WITH HER ...

She will hear you message.... She will notice you reaction..

It up to you weather its love she sees or hate ....

ITS UP TO YOU !!

I really appreciate the words of advice and encouragement. Trust me, I pour over everything posted here.

I did leave the door closed just as she left it. So she will either think that I've gotten past snooping on her and didn't see it... or that I saw it and didn't react to it. Doesn't really matter though I suppose. I'm not doing anything for her anymore. Its all about me now. Everything has been about her for the last 4 years of my life.

I am going to go out tonight and have a few beers. I probably won't get hammered, but I'd really like to. My closest buddy is going with me, I've told him what I found today and he's not going to let me do anything to contact her in any way.

I see what you're saying about how many marriages overcome something like this, but the simple fact that she is throwing herself at every guy that shows her attention is something that is drastically changing my opinion of her. I have a lot of thinking to do. She has no ethical reason not to sleep with whoever she feels like sleeping with, but she has to know how much it hurts me. Do I really want someone like that? More than that... do I really want to wait around for someone like that? She brought the first guy over to the house not two days after I left. What does that say about her? I don't know that I could ever go back to living in that house. I don't know that I could ever go back to her. I would constantly be thinking about what she did with these guys in our bedroom. I'm typically unable to let things like this go in my head. I would resent her for it the rest of our lives. I don't know that I would be able to keep myself from using it against her... maybe not throwing it in her face exactly...maybe not bringing it up in an argument... but using it as an excuse to resent her.

I don't know that my love for her is unconditional now.

Talking to my buddy today, he brought up some good points. He reminds me of how I used to be when I would talk to my friends when they were in situations like mine of putting themselves in position to get hurt. His opinion was that she definitely is the type that has to feel at all times like a guy is choosing to give her attention over other girls. He thinks that while we were married, because I never went out and never told her when a woman would flirt with me (because I was trying to be a good husband), she started to feel like I wasn't choosing her over other women because I never did anything on purpose or unintentionally that would show her that I'm desired by other women and I choose her over them. She said that she felt like I just tolerated her. He asked me if thats what I want to deal with for the rest of my life... constantly having to prove to my own wife that I can get other women, but that I choose her. Do I really want a woman like that? Do I really want a woman that requires a desired man to choose her to be happy? What happens when I get older and less desirable?

Her sister also called me about those tickets we bought. The topic of my wife obviously came up. She said that she thought my wife saying she needed to find herself was an excuse... she already knows what makes her happy and what makes her sad. She and my buddy both think she's just using "finding herself" as an excuse to continue her denial that she HAS to have a desired man giving her attention at all times to be happy. I'm inclined to agree with them. As soon as this next guy settles in with her, as long as she doesn't scare him off with her faults, the minute he stops getting women's attention because he's focused on my wife... or the minute he gets bored with my wife and stops paying so much attention to her, she's going to crash again for a day or two until she goes out with the next guy.

Daggi mentioned that she had everyone around her telling her what she was doing was ok and she had to make herself happy, etc and that no one was telling her the truth that she already knew what she wanted and it was what she had. Well, my wife's entire family has told her that from the get go. Her sister has tried to tell her what she thinks... what she needs to hear, but my wife just snaps at her and says its not funny. She refuses to listen to anyone about it.

I have a lot to think about, as usual.

Again, information was given to me before I could even hang up the phone not to hear it. Apparently more than a week ago she slept with the first new guy, then the next day or two she found out that he was messing around with his ex girlfriend at the same time. So, her first experience "dating" ended up in her being cheated on. I can't stand that this raging douche bag got to sleep with my wife, but at least her very first taste of dating has shown her exactly why it sucks... but yet, all of that happened before I talked to her about having learned how to salvage our marriage and stay in love... even with getting burned that badly, she still said she feels like she needs to force herself to "find herself" and figure out what makes her happy.

What I don't understand is if she slept with him more than a week ago, why is the condom wrapper still next to the bed? Would she leave it there to remind herself not to be fooled by the lame "I have the utmost respect for women" lines again? Or was it from last night? She just met this second guy for lunch for the first time yesterday from what I was told. She didn't get out of her second job until 9 or 10. Could she possibly have met this second new guy for lunch and then slept with him after she got home? They both have full time jobs early in the morning. I can't imagine that. This second new guy is an old ex-boyfriend from when she was a junior in high school... I remember her telling me the story of how she cheated on him with his best friend, which that best friend ended up stalking her when she broke it off with him.

I know... none of this matters. It doesn't mean anything. I didn't even want to know this stuff. I've tried my best NOT to know any of this stuff because it makes it that much harder to break the addiction. I know... I can't react to it. I'm just venting through this post I guess. Doesn't change that I'm moving on... doesn't change that she still doesn't want me. Its kind of ironic how the worse she gets treated, the more likely she should be to appreciate how well I treated her... and when it doesn't make her want me back, its that much more of a kick in the nuts.

All of this "finding herself" crap is an excuse... its just the easy way out so that she can keep denying to herself the fact that she's dependent on having a guy that A) shows her attention B) isn't hideous so she's not embarrassed to be seen with him and C) that she thinks has other women interested in him so that he's choosing her over other women.

I wish I could say "One day she'll snap out of it and face that fact, then realize that what she wants is what she had with me". That would make me feel a lot better if I knew that for sure, but its very possible and probably more likely that she will never be forced to face her dependency because she will always have a guy to fill that unhealthy void. I guess she will have to face it eventually, but its more likely that it won't be for years and years. She'll find a guy that fills that dependency, fall in love with him because of it, marry him just like she did me and then he'll get tired of her crap just like I did. He'll stop paying attention to her OR he'll be a good husband and not tell her about women wanting him OR he'll get old enough that women naturally aren't chasing him. If any of those things happen, that dependency... that need of hers won't be being met and she'll suddenly find herself depressed and unhappy just as she was with me. Unfortunately, that will be years and years from now and I will be a distant memory that comes up once every blue moon.

It is still possible that she could snap out of it before then, but who knows where I'll be or who I'm with. I'm not sure I want a woman with dependencies like that. I don't want my wife's love for me to be dependent on having women chasing me all the time. Thats not normal... thats not healthy. A woman's need for a physically attractive spouse is normal, from what the articles on this site say. A woman's need for having women chasing after their husband to validate their husband's worth doesn't seem normal to me. Thats what all of this comes down to. I have a REAL strong feeling that if she were to see me at one of these concerts with a woman hanging all over me, she'd flip her lid and change her tune. But yaknow... now that I see her needs for what they are... I'm not so sure I want to deal with her dependency.

You are really torturing yourself here, do you understand that ?

STOP IT !! Stop talking and asking her what she is doing and what is going on.

Stop assuming that everything you see indicates that she is sleeping with someone else ...

Do you want to save your marriage? I mean, do you REALLY want to save it ?

If so, then the first thing you have to do is stop kicking YOURSELF in the nuts. Thats all your doing here, Herb. Your kicking yourself and then not understanding why the pain is not leaving...

If she is telling you all these things she is doing with other men then you need to set down a boundry and tell her to stop. Polietly.

Simply say, "Could you not tell me these things? I know this is important to you, but I am not ready to hear about this piticular thing in your life. It hurts me to hear about it."

Then let her know that she can talk to you about everything or anything else going on. Then, let it drop.

If she brings it up again. Remind her nicely that you don't what to talk about that subject. If she continues, tell her you have to get off the phone and hang-up quickly. She will get the message.

I think she is telling you about this becuase she thinks that if she hurts you enough, you will run away. Its her way of dealing with the guilt. Then she can say you ran from the marriage, not her.

Don't play this game. Set a boundry and stick to it. She might get upset and withdrawl for a while. Ignore that too. She will come around though. She will see it as a sign of strength.

Do you really think she thinks highly of you if she can tell you all about things she is doing knowing how much they hurt you? I think not! She will see that you are desperate and willing to do anything to try and capture her. That is a big turn off.

Alot of people think that respect can only be earned. I, personally think it can also be demanded.

You set down a line ("please don't talk to me about these things"), tell her what happens is she crosses it ("I have to go now, great talking to you"), and when the line is crossed, you enfore the boundry (click!).

It will make her mad at first. But it will also make her respect you.

Last, stop snooping. This alone is going to keep the wild thoughts in your head. Stop looking for things. She is going to do what she wants to do right now.

Herb, understand that this isn't about everything you do step by step, but, more like the whole picture.

I know its hard. I know your thoughts are wild. I still get them sometimes.

Its about working on you and only you. Its about discovering who and what you are about.

I have discovered so many things about me in the last 6 months is mind-boggling.

I had so many fears when she left. So many things I thought I couldn't do. I was racked with fear at times.

But, I discovered that I could do it. Alot of times, I just did it and didn't even releaise I was doing it until a month later. Then I thought, this isn't so bad...

I have become a much stronger and much wiser person b/c of all this. I have fought until I thought I would drop and then I fought more.

What happened was, I got stronger. I looked at my self and discovered that I can survive this. I can be happy w/o her.
I became a changed man.

See, I thought I had it all right when I got married. I thought I knew what women wanted and how to take care of them.

Boy, was I WRONG. COMPLETLY AND TOTALLY WRONG !

But, I am learning now. And someone is going to benifit from all this. I will give my W first crack at it. She deserves that much no matter what. I promised her I would love her through everything and I intend to keep that promise as long as I can.

But, I also understand that all my trying might not still bring her back. The good news is, it won't happen with the next one so someone will reap the rewards of this.

Either way, I win. I hope she will come back and we can be happy. But, I also know that if she doesn't, my life will go on and I will eventually meet someone that I will love.

I will be much wiser and much stronger. I will have aquired a great amount of knowledge. And I will have enough faith in me and my strength to know that I will never have to live through this pain again.

Because I trust myself enough not to let it happen again.

And I love myself enough to stop it from happening again..

Its the whole picture, Herb .....

STAY ON THE PATH .....

I feel the same way. Either she's gonna get the benefit of what I've learned or the next woman I marry will. I know that I will never have to go through this again unless I choose to.

Everything I found out about what happened is from a third party. I really don't want to know what she's doing. I'm moving on. I'm not going to jump into a relationship or dating someone exclusively, but I am going to just roll with the punches here and see where life takes me. She's never said a word about what she's doing or who she's seeing... let alone what she's doing with whoever. She wouldn't do that. She wouldn't hurt me on purpose. Its possible that she left that condom wrapper out for me to find, but other than that I don't think she'd hurt me on purpose. She's not an evil person by any means. In fact, I still think she's amazing. But, she has one major issue that I'm not sure I want to deal with... that being that she always has to have validation that her man is desirable to other women. She used to jump all over me whenever someone would say something about me. When one of her friends would say how cute I was or how great I am... when she'd catch another girl checking me out... the next thing I knew she'd be all over me. Going through all of this has made me realize that this isn't just her being a typical jealous type of woman... its more than that. It's deeper than that. I don't know that I want to have to deal with always having to validate that I'm desirable. I want my wife to desire me and that be enough for her. I don't know that it will ever be enough for my current wife.

We still haven't really talked about anything other than what we needed from each other (watching dogs, selling the truck, etc) since our talk last Saturday... which is even more odd now that I know she wasn't talking to the first guy and didn't go to lunch with this next guy until Tuesday.

I appreciate your encouragement. Your advice is definitely helping. I wish there were more success stories around here to read about though.

I had some positive news today in that I sold my truck which relieves quite a bit of stress expense wise. It also may give my wife some additional proof that I'm not just talking about changes and moving on, that I'm actually doing something about it.

Ok --

I think you are starting to see the light a little here.

And remember, mine is not a success story .... Yet ...

As for her constant need for validation, I think you are right. Its not normal. Its part of a bigger problem that may have nothing to do with you.

You can't force her to see the problem. You can only guide her to the problem and hope she sees it.

My wife has a very bad case of denial about something. It has caused us a great deal of problems in our M and it was a major factor in our split.

My mistake was to keep trying to convince her that I was right and she was wrong. I dug my heels in and would not budge. I never once looked at it from her side and never once asked her how she felt. No wonder we always fought over it.

What I do now is let the problem "talk" to her. I stay silent and let her hear it. Before, I was so busy running my trap that I drowned out the voice of the problem.

See, the problem doesn't go away. Its still there and it still talks. Only now, she can't fight with me about it so much that I drown the voice. She has to listen to it.

What she is discovering is, the voice is getting louder. She knew it was wrong. She knew there was a problem. She knew she was in denial. But, as long as I keep yelling, she could look at me and not at the problem.

Thing was, once I was gone, the problem was still there and still talking.

Will she ever confront it? I don't know. Its up to her. I hope for her sake she does. And I am willing to help her with it as much as I can. Any way I can.

But, I am smart enough now to understand that sometimes my help is to do nothing. Or to keep my mouth shut. Or to pretend I don't care about it.

This is her fight to fight. Her problem to fix. I can't make her fix it or even WANT to fix it until she is ready.

I can only show her that I have the stregth to help her with it when SHE is ready to try. I have the ability to show her that I can be relied on, I can be leaned on when she needs support.

Yelling and arguing did nothing but make her run.

A true sign of strength is sometimes shown not by what you do, but, rather, by what you DON'T do when comfronted with something ...

Make sense?

As for the third party, you need to tell them to shut the heck up. They are doing nothing to help you and are in fact making things worse.

You need to tell the, to butt out of this and to stay out. The fact that someone would even tell you these things makes me question if they are a true friend to you or not.

On a side note, I told my plan to both my parents (they are divorced). One heard what I had to say, agreed with me, and informed me that they respected my decesion and would do what they could to help. These parents has given me constant encourgment including giving me my own advice back when I needed to hear it. They have listened to me cry, listened to me yell and listened to me hurt. They let me know they are right beside me during this journey and will help hold me up when I can't stand.

The other parents right away critizied me. Told me I was wasting my time and riticuled me for doing this.

How did I react? Easy. I locked them out of the plan. Only after I told them that they didn't have to agree or accept my decesion. But, it was mine to make and that they could support this marriage and me or they could go to he!!. Either way, I was going to do what I had to do to try and make this work. I will not surround myself with people who only want to bring me down.

They cloaked this rejection of me by telling me that "its for your own good" or "We love you and we don't want you to keep hurting yourself".

Bull, if they loved me they would support me and what I am trying to do.

See, its MINE and MY WIFE'S marriage. Not thiers. They are not me and they have no right to tell me what I should be doing. I am a grown adult and have supported myself for many years.

I told them, if you really loved me, you would support my decesion and try and help me accomplish my goal. I then stopped talking to them about it.

About two weeks later, they brought it up again and wanted to know how I was doing. I told them fine and didn't say much more about it.

It was then that I was informed that they had changed thier minds and that they WOULD support me. They said I was right, it was MY marriage and that I should be the one to make the decesions. Not them. They promised support from then on and have been very good at providing it. Even told me that they admired me for doing it and that once they understood what it was about, remarked that they were amazed at the stength I showed on keeping focused on the plan.

A true friend will find out what you really want and help you get it. They sill support your decesion and encourge you no matter how the friend feels.

Both now say that if we reconsile, they will never hold this against her. It was vey important for me to know this. It will very important for my W b/c she was very tight with both my parents at one time.

That is a true sign that they love me. They brushed aside thier feelings and support me even if they don't agree. Even if if it means they stand by and watch while I hurt emotonally. Even if it means that I will have nothing left to give them in the end but pieces.

They are both prepared to deal with it b/c they respect me enough to understand that I have to do this. MY WAY.

And they are willing to do it, my way ...

I am one lucky SOB.....

STAY ON THE PATH .....

Well.. I had my night out. I had a night full of friends telling me I didn't deserve to beat myself up over all of this.. that I did plenty to make a reasonable woman happy. Sometimes I agree with them and the next minute I don't. The simple fact that she's ****** herself out to every guy that comes along changes my entire opinion of her. Right now, after a few beers, I truly feel as though she doesn't deserve me. She doesn't deserve my loyalty. She just gave up on us instead of trying to fix it. She decided ****** herself out and induldging was more important to her than me. If thats the person she's become, I don't want her back. She has some seriously deep seeded issues of being entirely spoiled in every way imagineable. She will either face these issues or die a lonely old woman. Regardless of which path she ends up on, I won't be here for her. I deserve better.

I realize now that it is over. She is long gone and isn't looking back. She has no interest in me and most likely won't. I deserve better than being stricken to waiting around for her to realize how great she had it with me. Its time for me to put her in my past. I don't need her anymore. I will be happy without her, but only if I completely detach from her. No more accepting her phone calls.. no more watching the dog for her... none of that. From now on, she doesn't exist to me. I have to look out for myself first and that means drawing a line and putting her in the past. Her major issues make her and I being together an impossibility. I don't want her as long as she has these issues. If, some day years from now, she's actually faced these issues... so be it. If I'm single at the time and confident that she no longer has these issues, I'll decide at the time if she's worth looking into. For now, I've had enough.

Another kicker to all of this is that as I was pulling out of the driveway dropping off the dog before I went out, she was pulling onto the street. She paused as though to say something to me but I just kept driving. 10 minutes later she calls my cell phone and says she got a message on her cell phone that someone had tried to access her voice mail at 10pm last night. Well, I called her around 11:45 and didn't access her voice mail... I told her this but didn't try to prove myself to her.... I really didn't care if she didn't believe me. I really don't care if she believes me or not anymore. Its done with. I'm done with it. I told her if she really wanted to know, she could check the call logs and see that I called close to midnight and the time she was given by the message was completely different from when I called. Doesn't really matter though.

I appreciate all the help everyone has given me thus far. Unfortunately, this is over with. I am done with it. Tomorrow will be a new day and it will be a day that she has no bearing on. She will not affect my decisions from now on. The woman she was... was worth it... but the woman I know she is now... ****** herself out and being completely dependent on having male attention... isn't the woman I want. I deserve better. I will be better off without her.

What is your personal recovery plan?

L.

I guess I don't really have one. My only plans now are to focus on my new business and move on from there once it's making a profit. At that point I'll set myself up with a new apartment and just live life. Other than this business, I don't feel like I have a huge event coming up in my life to look forward to. For the longest time I was looking forward to having kids. Now I'm back to looking for a new woman in my life, eventually finding a new wife and eventually having kids with that new wife.

I still love my wife. I'm not in denial of that in any way. My heart still wants her back but my head doesn't. Part of it is that I don't want to deal with her issues and part of it is just a defense mechanism to try and stop getting hurt over and over. I still love the connection that we had when we were both in love. I love the basis of who she is. I don't love what she's doing right now. I don't love the issues I've realized she has and will continue to have. I don't love the idea of having to constantly validate my desirability to my wife to keep her love for me.

That thing last night with her thinking I tried to check her voicemail is still bugging the crap out of me. You should have heard her voice. It completely changed her attitude toward me and I didn't even do anything. I keep thinking maybe I should email her and reinforce that I had nothing to gain by checking her voice mail. She probably wouldn't believe it anyway. And... if I'm putting her in my past, what does it matter if she thinks I did it?

One thing you will learn....it doesn't pay to try and reason with a WS. They are beyond reason. Instead learning techiniques to protect you and your family (plan A, plan B, reverse babble, etc.) will help you cope while she chooses to be a WS.

MB phone counseling, reading books, helps also. It helps keep us focused.

take care,
L.

Every day I feel differently about the entire situation. I still feel as though I need to move on, but today I'm back to feeling like I still haven't given up hope for us. I know I shouldn't, but I still want us to get back together. She and I are both just so much different than most people... how we think, how we act... we're just... a rare breed. I recognize now, after all of this, how rare and valuable finding someone else of this breed is. Its extremely hard to let that go.

I did end up sending her an email in response to her phone call. I just didn't want something I didn't do kill any progress that was made as far as her thinking differently of me. I could either email her without putting up a fight for myself or I could at least make an attempt, so I did. Whether I should or shouldn't have, I don't know. It felt like the right thing to do and.. it had an interesting result.

Here's the email:


So, today she gets on AIM while I was gone, says something about how I never called about her watching the dog so she assumed she wasn't supposed to. She reads the email, then says "You are a boyfriend?". Then a couple minutes later she says "ok i've got some stuff to do today cya".

Out of that entire email, all she wanted to know about was if I was a boyfriend. Why would she ask that?

I'm not sure why she'd ask that. I'm not sure it really matters if she'll just find a new guy every time she crashes. Where Daggi crashed and realized her husband was what she wanted, my wife will just continue to find new guys to keep her happy... and eventually find a guy that keeps her happy long enough to get married and perhaps even have kids. I don't see why she'd look me up when she crashes instead of calling up the next in line waiting to take her out. The passion and excitement of dating someone new that Daggi described an affair as, I feel will always be more exciting for her than dating me again, regardless of how much I've changed for the better.

If anyone has any ideas on how a former husband can overcome the excitement of new men when your wife has zero committment to the marriage, I'm all ears.

Wow, I'm completely destroyed yet again. This morning she IM'd me...


So... I learned she was dead set on finding out if I was a boyfriend...and that she spent the night at this new guy's place. Why would she make it a point to tell me that?

Still or Daggi, if yer out there... I have no idea how to respond to this.

hi Herb,

its kinda funny.. i kept asking my Husband back then too if he had a girlfriend yet, kinda strange, after all i was the one that was "in love" with someone else. In a way i wanted him to have one, so the burden would be off of me, and that he wouldnt feel so much pain, but at the same time i NEVER believed he could actually fall in love with someone else. Isnt that weird? Once he called me, at that point i already knew he had a girlfriend, but he still told me that he loved me and that she knew that too, so it was ok for me that he was with her, but on the phone he told me that he had gone to the beach with her, i reacted very strangely to that. I started getting mad at him, because this was something we had always wanted to do, but never really did. We had gone once, but it was too cold to lay on the beach in the sun. I had no clue at this time why i reacted the way i did. It shouldnt have bothered me, i should have said, oh thats nice, did you have a good time? But instead i got mad at him, i think i even hung up on him on that phonecall. It had hurt me, but i was so far gone still... i didnt see it as hurt, i just saw the anger from it. Anger is a secondary emotion, this i know by now as well, for a splitsecond before than ... there was hurt. And i wouldnt have felt hurt if i wouldnt have had feelings for my Husband still. But i didnt see that, and neither did he.

She is wondering if you are a boyfriend, that is a clear sign that she still cares and somewhere still sees you as "hers". You have been telling her over and over so far that you love her and want to work on the marriage, now all of a sudden she sees the word boyfriend, and she is thrown off. Especially the way you handled the conversation on messenger. She wanted to know more, but she knew she actually gave up the right to know in the minute that she left you. I think she will contact you again, and idont think it will take 4-5 days before she does. There will be some excuse why she contacts you... maybe about the dog or something else. She dont even know herself why she reacted the way she did. I think she will actually think about that.
At least she is wondering, and maybe she will realize that it would bother her if she actually did loose you and she had no control over it. Right now she has control over whether she wants to come back to you or not, if you were to be with someone else, that would take that control from her. She would not be the one deciding that anymore. At least this is my output on this.

How you should react? Well she like i said, she might try more contact again. She might try to find out more about it, to see if there is another person, but actually you dont owe her an answer, after all she is the one that left.

Maybe someone else can give you better pointers than me, but you did spark her interest, and that is a good sign <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Daggi,

Once again, everything you have to say fits perfectly.

She hasn't tried to contact me all day today. It kind of bugs me that she would make a point to tell me she spent the night with someone. That plus the condom wrapper thing where she knew I was going to be over there but acted like she hadn't gotten my message yet. I really don't want to know about these things. I couldn't sleep last night thinking about her sleeping with someone else. I think I finally dozed off at 3 or 4am but kept waking up every 45 mins or so in a sweat. Then I get up this morning and she tells me she back-handedly tells me she stayed with some guy last night. Why would she do that? I think she's playing games with my head and doesn't even know why she's doing it.

I really WANT to move on at this point. I wish I could get her out of my head. I still want her back but I don't want to think about her in the mean time, yaknow? It still rips my heart out all day every day.

Should I move to Plan B and avoid all contact? Lets look at my choices.

A) Continue accepting her attempts to contact, continue meeting any needs she lets me meet, continue to not be able to move on with my life, continue to have my heart ripped out every day even though I know it will be many months or even years before she realizes her dependency on men to be happy.

B) Avoid all contact with her and move on, hopefully avoiding some of the pain as well.

Neither one seems like it will get her where she needs to be any faster, so I might as well take Plan B and at least try to lessen the pain.

Well, its been a couple of days now since that IM conversation I posted. Haven't heard a single word from her. I really wish she and I were still talking, but for whatever reason, she's decided she doesn't want to or shouldn't, or is obsessed with this new guy. Most likely the latter.

I wish I could think that she's just in a fog and that the infatuation with this new guy would wear off eventually. Unfortunately, they really could be compatible with each other. It may not be a fog. It could be for real.

Also, she's been blowing the cash in our joint bank account like crazy. That may be a test as well to see if I'll flip out and get upset that she's spending more than her half. And, if I don't flip out, she gets to spend a bunch of money on herself so its win-win for her.

I know what I have to do. I have to move on and put her in my past. I just don't know how to do that. Time isn't moving fast enough. I feel extremely lonely which is made infinitely worse by the fact that she is the opposite of lonely... she's curled up with this guy sleeping soundly, not even thinking about me.. not caring. I've never had someone love me so much and then eventually care nothing about me while I still loved them. I definitely don't feel in love with her, but I do love her. I'm still in love with the idea and the feeling of being with her. She has to think about me sometimes... I don't know how she can just flip a switch and suddenly not think about someone she has been with for four years, was married to and shared that connection with. If anyone could, it would be her. She can be extremely cold-hearted... she's very capable of throwing up a wall of defenses and simply stopping her emotions to avoid pain. I don't know why, but it would make me feel a lot better if I knew that she missed me... that losing me hurt her... that she gave a ****** about me. She'd never admit to any of that. The fact that she cares so little that it doesn't affect her ability to fall for another man hurts even more. I don't affect her now. Wow. Writing that snaps my head back. She doesn't care about me now. I'm just another in a long line of ex's for her. More than that... she not only doesn't care about me, she's replacing me with this new guy. If I'm being honest with myself, it's very likely that this guy can more than replace me. I don't have that much self esteem to think that I can compete with him whenever they go through a fight or a rough time... the time when the "fog" would normally be lifting and she would be contemplating going back to me... I don't feel like I would win that comparison. I've seen the profile of the guy's ex long time girlfriend and all over it she says how great a guy he is and how much he's changed her life and blah blah. She raves about him. I have no idea why they split.. probably his idea. Does any of this matter? NO. But it still is what's on my mind.

I have to get over her. I have to stop thinking about her. I have to stop wondering what she's doing. I have to stop thinking about our old house together that she sleeps with him in. I have to stop thinking about "her" (our) dog that I miss so much. They weren't going to let us adopt that dog, but I literally slammed on the brakes on the way home as she was crying, made a huge U turn across 4 lanes of oncoming traffic and talked the adoption society into letting us have that puppy. I'm sure she doesn't ever think of those kinds of things I did for her on a daily basis. I have to stop thinking about her head on my chest. I have to stop thinking about curling up behind her at night. Even when I think about the bad sides to her, I still miss it. I miss her getting angry. I miss her habits that most would say were disgusting. She used to drool on my chest and leave a huge wet spot every time she'd fall asleep on my chest... it used to drive me nuts, but I miss it so much now. I miss her taking forever to get ready. I miss her family that, for a long time, used to get on my nerves but that I grew to love as my own. I just miss my life. I miss feeling secure.. I miss just laying on our bed and staring at the ceiling. I miss feeling like my life was on track... that I knew where my life was headed and that we'd grow old together... having children, raising a family. I was... so.... incredibly... satisfied with life. Satisfied, secure, content... just... happy. Now I'm anxious, stressed, worried, unsure... I have no idea who I'll be with or when. I have no idea if or when I'll have children. It could be 10 years from now and I had gotten my head to a point where I was ready to have children right now.

I still haven't been able to let go of it. I feel like I should be fighting for it. Its so important to me... I was so happy... I feel like I should be doing everything I can... making all the made for TV moments I can possibly make... making these huge speaches to her to make her change her mind. I feel like I should at least try even if everything tells me it wouldn't do any good. Just letting her walk away without fighting for her seems so wrong to me. Everything has always told me until this situation that you fight for what you want. I feel like I'm just giving up.

I have no life of my own to move on to. Yeah, I have a place to stay and work to get done, but I don't have a 9-5 job to go to every day, I don't have a place of my own... I go out on the weekends but the weekdays drag by in loneliness. I've met several new women while out with my buddies and haven't pursued them at all. I didn't even get their numbers even though they made it clear they wanted to see me again sometime. I have an old friend who wants me to go see her a couple hours away, but she's getting married in a month and I don't want to cause problems. She and I used to flirt when we met but both of us were in relationships and never had a chance to pursue each other. Probably a bad idea to see her, even though she's the only woman I have any interest in seeing right now.

I gotta figure out how to move on. Most of it is dependent on turning a profit flipping houses but that just takes time... time that I can't bear to stand at this point.

An update was suggested by the folks over in the EN section.

Since my last post, she called asking me to watch the dog this weekend. I told her that I already had plans. It turned into a long conversation in which she said she didn't want lawyers involved in filing papers. We had a long talk discussing how to split everything up again, getting things out of each other's names, etc.

After that, I pretty much blew it. Her bringing up filing papers really threw me for a loop. I ended up going over to the house that night to talk to her, but I didn't call far enough ahead and the entire time she felt like I was just showing up at the house. I poured my heart out to her, told her what I had learned and why things would be different... that I feel I can be that guy that makes her happy now. All she had to say was that all the things she wanted to change about me... that this new guy already is those things and he's my same age. She said it's too late, she's past the disappointment and the hurt, that I had months to make things right and didn't do anything about it. She said she's happy with this new guy... that she's not depressed anymore like she was with me... that she actually likes going out and doing things with this guy where she and I were always home bodies... that she's a completely different person than she was when she and I met. She said why should I give up this guy when he makes me so incredibly happy? I didn't have an answer for her. I told her that I wasn't going to try to talk her into anything, but that I was there to tell her how I felt about the changes I'd made in myself for myself and that I feel I'm now the husband she always wanted me to be.

The next day I called her after work to ask her if she would be willing to sit down and talk about the things she always wanted to change about me... since we'd never done that. I didn't even get that far into the conversation to ask that before she went off on a rampage about how I can't be calling her, how it creates awkward moments when her soon to be ex husband calls, text messages or leaves IMs when this other guy is around. I said to her "Do you think that maybe those awkward moments are happening because you're still married?" She just said "I don't feel married... I'm not married except for filing a piece of paper, which I'm doing." Somehow the conversation went back into how it's too late... she said not to call her unless I had something new to say, etc. She started getting upset and going off on a rant about all the "creepy" things I'd done after I left like bugging the computer, driving by the house when she had a guy over two days after I left... she even attributed creepy things to me that I didn't even do. I apologized for doing stupid things that just pushed her away at the beginning. I pointed out to her that I hadn't initiated contact with her in 3 weeks, until two days ago when I showed up to talk to her at the house.. that I'd let her call me first, IM me first or what have you. Didn't matter to her.. she didn't even realize that's what I'd been doing. I had to point it out to her and she ignored it.

For instance, she asked me to watch the dog last Friday. I did, and I told her I was going to drop her off on my way to go out on Friday. That was at 8:30 when I told her that. She thought I meant I was dropping the dog off right then. Well, I didn't go out until about 10pm and she was pulling into the neighborhood as I was pulling out. She had asked me to make her a copy of a demo CD for her, which I had no blank CD's for, so I tried to copy the songs from my mp3 player onto the computer for her. I even told her that I tried to do this for her. But, yet, yesterday when she was going off on a rampage about what all I'd been doing (in her head), she asked why I was even on the computer upstairs or why I'd logged into facebook on that computer (leaving my email address as the last logged in). Well, I'd logged in to send her a message that I was picking up the dog earlier that day. She said that me showing up in the middle of the night right when we were splitting up made her change the locks. I had no idea she even did that until yesterday when she told me. Several other cases she pointed out that I didn't even do. I tried to explain to her that everything I did when we were splitting up was out of fear and shock... that she knew that wasn't how I normally am. She just said that she'd never seen me in a crisis like this so this is all she knew of how I react under such circumstances.

Well, you get the picture. She doesn't want me calling or contacting her now because it would create awkward moments.

The folks over in the EN section have suggested having a friend or family member of hers (someone she might listen to) tell her "You know, before you get into a new relationship, it would be fairer to yourself to take some time to learn who you are, instead of trying to conform yourself as we all do in a new relationship. If this guy cares about you, he'll wait until you've had some time to recover."

I know what her response will be because she's told me herself.. she says she knows who she is, what she wants and doesn't want in a guy, and that she's happy with him... why should she give that up?

So, what do you guys think I should do? mineownself suggests a strict Plan A only if I think I can keep it up, but my concern with that is that she's not going to be contacting me for any reason other than to get me to sign papers or to get my stuff out of the house. I don't know how to improve her opinion of me if she never talks to me. I feel like this is a lost cause. She's extremely resentful of me, she got angry on the phone with me.. she wants nothing to do with me. When I called her yesterday, she said I had nothing new to say from what I said at the house the day before and I can't keep calling and showing up like that.

Some in the EN section have said to basically move on and act aloof when she calls, to focus on myself. MOS says there are still things I could do as with a Plan A.

I'm really lost here. I don't know what to do at all.

I've only been gone a month since she cheated on me and it's already too late. She's already happy with this new guy.

I feel like my situation is closer to a post-divorce situation. She doesn't want me back. She's happy with this new guy. She doesn't want me disturbing her for fear that it will run this new guy off. She's said repeatedly she doesn't feel married, that she doesn't want to work it out.... and I believe her. She says that this new guy is everything that she wanted to change about me... and I believe her. I believe he actually is those things... it's not just fog. She says she's happy with this new guy and why should she give that up? Because I'm still legally her husband? Her response is that I'm not her husband anymore in any way except for a technicality that she's fixing.

I have to agree with her that she's not married in any way except for filing a piece of paper, which she's now said she's going to do. I believe her when she says she's past that.. she's past the disappointment of not getting what she wanted from me... that she's moved on and is happy with this new guy (in less than a month of me being gone).

MOS over in the EN section has said that I haven't done all that I can do to fight for this marriage. She said that I can still execute a good Plan A. I'm so confused at this point. I feel like what MOS says about how I haven't presented myself as an attractive option and that I haven't done everything I could gives me hope again that things could work out. Everything tells me that this is over.. that I'm fighting for something that isn't there, that doesn't exist.

What else can I possibly do except meet her ENs that she lets me meet (none right now, she doesn't want me to contact her) and avoid any LBs (none right now since, again, she doesn't want me to contact her)? The two things that are part of Plan A never have any effect if we aren't in contact.

What I have here is a situation where we will soon be divorced, my STBXW doesn't want anything to do with me, she thinks I'm crazy for fighting for a marriage that she doesn't want, and she thinks I'm creepy for having spied on her after I left the house. Several people on here reassured me that she's smart and will understand that I did those things out of shock and fear, but she hasn't. She has attributed creepy acts to me since then that I didn't even do.

It sure feels like all hope is gone. Getting on these forums and listening to people in the EN section tell me that I haven't done all I can do gives me hope again. Is there anything that can be done at this point?

Yes, I want to work on our marriage. No, I have not read HNHN yet, but I will. I believe I understand the MB concepts fairly well. Yes, I have made it clear several times that I want to save our marriage by rebuilding a new relationship the right way. The vows and committment of marriage mean NOTHING to her because she thinks that she and I simply aren't good for each other any more. She feels that she and I have grown apart, drifted apart and are two different people now... that it just wasn't meant to be.

It sounds a lot like WS chatter, but what about cases where it's true? From what I know of him, she and he could very well end up together. Even if she and he have a fight sometime down the road, probably months from now, she will patch it up with him. Even if they broke up for some reason, at this point, I'm the LAST person on earth she'd want to look into. Joe schmoe off the street would get more interest from her. She has negative interest in me because of A) how I was when we were married and B) how I've been since we split up, regardless of whether I actually did some of those things or not.

I left due to her having an EA with another guy almost exactly a month ago. I exposed that one to everyone, but it crashed and burned on it's own less than two weeks later when he cheated on her.

A week later she reconnected with an old ex boyfriend from when she was a sophomore in high school. They've spent every minute together outside of work since and she's falling head over heels for him. There's nothing to expose as she has already told everyone about him because she feels no guilt. She has split up with me, told me it's over, told me she's over me and has told me she has zero interest in me. In every way except having filed a piece of paper, she is single... her family, my family, her friends, my friends... even I agree that she has no reason to feel guilty. I can't really use guilt as a way to end their relationship. Anything I do to make awkward situations for them makes her resent me even more than she already does.

She doesn't want me to contact her because of that. I can't execute a Plan A if she doesn't want to talk to me. Any ideas?