Smartcookie,

Are you saying that if the BS gets custody of the children, then that means that he or she is holding the WS hostage if the WS comes back? I don‘t get the logic.

If the spouses separate either the BS or the WS gets custody. I don’t see why the BS should be the one who loses custody or not fight for it. Maybe you mean that if the WS is woman she should get custody since “as a mom….” Unless you want to say that all moms should always get custody, unless some obvious exceptions like being a drug addict apply, then I don’t see the logic of your argument. And if that is your claim, then that shows some obvious bias on your part not founded on reason or logic.

MM fought for custody of his children and won. I don’t see what you wanted him to do on that point. He was not trying to prevent his children from seeing their mom; he was just trying to stand for his rights. I guess maybe he should have just rolled over.

I see the bigger point that you are trying to make, but your sub-point on custody is mistaken and totally bias at best.

***Saved and will be updated at a later time***

The fact of the matter, from where I sit, is that MM, as the spiritual head of his household, does have the responsibility to address his wife's spiritual walk.

We are called to not be unequally yoked (1 Corinthians, I think). I do not view it as either a SD or a DJ to tell your spouse, if you're both Christians (or claim to be), that they need to repent and get right with God. We're instructed to do that. Part of fellowship, be it within the family, amongst friends or in the church, is to hold each other accountable.

MM has to call it as he sees it. Right now, Satan has an open door into his marriage due to the current situation. At some point, his wife has to make things right with God, or MM has to take steps to protect himself and his family. He is in a very tough spot (spiritually). No Christian on this planet can fight in the trenches of sin for 24/7 indefinately - sooner or later they get fatigued, and they can get dragged down. As humans, we just don't have the capacity to extend grace indefinately in the face of sin (whatever that sin may be).

We can argue all day about whether it's a SD or DJ to tell a spouse to get right with God. SD/DJ's are a MB principle. This is a spiritual battle. MM views this as having gone beyond the scope of an affair, and into a much larger arena, and is acting within the directions and statutes that God has given us.

To stand in front of your spouse and say "You must get right with God or else" is a DJ. To stand in front of your spouse and say "We can have a marriage beyond our wildest dreams if we submit ourselves and our marriage wholly to God." is not. It's not an opinion, it's not an idea, it's not a MM or Mrs. MM goal. It's a plain and simple fact. MM is a Christian - therefore, his marriage needs to be built on a Christian foundation. If you are living in sin, if there is sin that you are aware of and unwilling to part with, you cannot be be wholly submitted to God. And partial submission to God doesn't really work all that well.

I view it as a boundary, not a DJ. It's like telling your spouse "If you don't maintain NC, you're not committed to our marriage." Is that a boundary, or a DJ? I think it's a boundary.

Hopefully what I've said makes some sense. MB principles are good, tried and true. But refusing to take a stand in the name of not wanting to make SD/DJs is as bad as using God's name to justify war.

Some things cannot be POJA'd. Ending an affair cannot be POJA'd. And neither can salvation.

***Saved and will be updated at a later time***

Mortarman:

I could not find your response to this previous post of mind below.
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Mortarman:

I am speechless by this but yet not surprised..

I believe in the POWER of SATANIC forces..as you know..we share much of the same belief system...

I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions..


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So, not a WW. That issue was over with (or mybe not...it doesnt really matter though).


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Why are you saying that this does not matter now?


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So, while making the move toward going out the door again, she obviously contacted the OM in Florida...who has made it known that he is still available if she gets divorced.




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This suggests that the OM could have continued to have been a factor in this...


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So, a different animal than an affair.


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Again, why are you saying this?


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I have no idea now if what actually happened was the death of my wife on 9/11. This person is the opposite of her. I thought it was because of the affair. But I now know it is not. I now know that this is a direct Satanic attack on me and my family. And because I now know that she probably wasnt saved (even though I saw her go forward and be baptized), my wife is and has been taking directions directly from the Devil. As Scripture says, we all serve a master...either Jesus or Satan!






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I think this was true of my H during his affair....he was totally the OPPOSITE from himself and seemed demon possesed at times..which makes me wonder why you think that your wife is any different...is it because she was not saved? Don't you think the door remains open for her to become saved?


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I have asked why God has not allowed me and what I have done here to help get thru to her so she might be saved. The answer I am getting now is that her getting saved may not have been the point of all of this. That literally our entire 13 year marriage may have only been because God wanted me to become who I am, and for me to be the dad I have been to my kids. He knew how Kristy would reject Him...and would get lost. He also probably knows that she wont be found (her heart has definitely been hardened!). So, even with all of that,He needed me to go thru all of this because of my kids...and probably because of what I am doing now that I am fully engaged in helping to save marriages. All of this has been for a purpose!



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You believe God is telling you that your wife WILL NOT BE FOUND and WILL NOT BE SAVED? I don't want to question you, MM..but could Satan be telling you this..because of his desire to DESTROY families and marriages...

You certainly seem farther than me in your Christian walk..but how can you be so sure that GOD is telling you this?


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Thus, there is no Plan Aing or Plan Bing someone that is this far gone in her emotions. She is this way with everyone, including our kids. Everyone that has ever knew her (except her family) has given up on her. The church has given up on her. And as much as this hurts to say this, I now give up on her.




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I just hate to hear you say that you have given up on her....


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Prayers on behalf of my wife probably are of no use at this point.


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Mortarman? What? I will continue to pray for your wife..The Lord says Pray without ceasing....


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While we always say WSs are all alike, my situation now has nothing to do with a WW. My situation now has to do with a spiritually and emotionally dead wife that is determined NOT to follow Jesus. This is different


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How can you be so sure? This does SOUND like a JUDGEMENT to me...

I can understand YOU...LETTING THE UNBELIEVER GO..but I don't want to assume that she will not one day REPENT and come to accept Jesus Christ...

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***Saved and will be updated at a later time***

MM:

"My wife sits and wonders (and says I should be on meds) because I refuse to accept anything that is opposed to what Christ says."

What is she hoping you'll accept that's opposed 2 what Christ says? I'm not sure this means what it sounds like, which is:

'MM, you need meds so you can accept a Christ-opposing view'

- (which doesn't make sense, when you really think about it)

or

'MM, you're so busy shouting out what God demands of people that you can't even empathise with your own W when she's in trouble'

- and I have no idea whether either one of these interpretations have a grain of truth, but I'll tell you a story that I'm reminded of, anyway: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

31 years ago, I was a pump jockey at a gas station (we still had full service islands in those days, self-serve was pretty new). Our station was on a busy 4-lane intersection, and we got a lot of traffic going by during the day. I used 2 see this split-windshield VW bus drive through pretty regularly, and hoped that the owner would stop in sometime so I could talk VWs with him (I had just bought my 67 bus about then, and was a little 2 'into' VWs at the time). His bus was very nicely restored, though he'd painted it yellow and white (VW never painted the early ones that color yellow). Well, one day the bus pulled in for gas at the self-serve island. Since I wasn't busy, I went over and offered 2 pump the gas for the guy, but he ignored me.

He ignored everything I said - about everything. He had a busload of fellow believers on their way 2 Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. Every 5 or 10 seconds (I kid you not), they all shouted "Jesus is Lord" 2 the world. I tried 2 strike a convo with the driver pumping the gas - first about VWs, but then about Christianity (I was a Christian Scientist and my W was a Christian - we regularly attended each other's churches in those days). But he was so busy witnessing 2 me that he never even realized that I agreed with a lot of the things he was saying.

I gave up trying 2 get a word in edgewise when he paid for the gas and I gave him his change. He was still pontificating in2 the air as he got back in the bus and drove away. I heard "Jesus is Lord!" every 5-10 seconds fading in2 the distance...

MM, even if what she's saying is "wrong" or eschews her "unbelief", can you perhaps try 2 find out what's bothering her? I truly believe that your faith is strong enough that you need not worry about being led astray by anything you might hear.



Also, you've been here a long time and have seen a lot of sitches. In your wildest imaginings, do you perceive even a femtochance that your WW and the OM could really... ...last? ...thrive? ...even survive, long term?

I sure don't. It seems she's crying out for something in her actions. And maybe she's given up on herself, because she feels she's been unable 2 get her point across.

I don't know. Just wondering out loud.

-ol' 2long

***Saved and will be updated at a later time***

This is something I myself struggle with. I have held my tongue several times when I thought what my spouse was doing or saying was wrong. It is very hard for me to do this however I have come to leave some of the teachings to the LORD To have HIM teach my h and it seems to be working better. I still struggle with wanting to tell my h how wrong his thinking is in a situation or his behavior however he tends to rebel more so when I do this. When I give it to GOD to deal with it works much better.


And she does know these things now. What would happen if you were to totally back off on this, if you were to totally give the teaching to HIM for awhile. Your wife probably knows very well where you stand and what she should be doing. What would happen if you "LET GO AND LET GOD?"

Maybe just maybe you are trying to hard. Because you are the spiritual leader of your family. Do you feel that as a spiritual leader you are a failure in some way?

"As I said above...the issue I am now confronting isnt just the affair."

But, I'll submit 2 you that all the other issues you're confronting are direct fallout from the affair never truly having ended.

-ol' 2long

***Saved and will be updated at a later time***

" I am also saying that even if she becomes saved later on, that my marriage and everythign I have gone thru here has been about something else. About bringing me closer to Him. About me learning and being able to help others. And about things I have yet seen. I had thought it had been about the redemption of my wife also. Right now, that does not appear to be the case. Do I know for sure she isnt saved. Nope. i do knwo she is serving Satan right now. Do I knwo that God will never get thru to her? Nope. but that isnt my issue. My issue is what God wants from me, and why I ahve gone thru what I have."

I agree with everything you've said above, about YOU and YOUR journey, though as you know I would use different jargon. Same meaning, though.

But letting go of this particular "unbeliever", in your case... ...could you possibly accept, at some point, that what she's going through might be part of her process of getting her closer 2 God? Even the stuff you think is under Satan's control?... ...because HER issue, like yours, is what does God want from her?

...or, in my jargon, where is she on her path 2 enlightenment, and how can you best help her? (maybe by being patient for her, or maybe by saying goodbye?)

-ol' 2long

Ok...Mortar, I'd take things down a notch with her...

why reason with the abductees?

It won't work...b/c on the mothership they become ALIENS!

And here is something aside from spiritual warfare to chew on...

My xh for example, during the "pretend reconciliation/recovery" hid his affair with ow1 SOOOOO DEEP...like speaking in code, calling from payphones, only seeing each other out of state...that I had no clue.

MY xh used the time during the false recoveries TO HOARD MONIES...GIVE AND DISPERSE MONIES...and try to make it look on paper he was poor...just in case I filed against him. And waited until I BECOME BROKEN (or as close to broken as I'd ever become) to unleash the furies of ****** on me. Why?

It is a game if the WS is in it with the OP longterm (even though affairs don't survive ok? longterm affair to me is longer than 1 year). It was his ticket out. And now your ww is claiming to NOT HAVE HAD CONTACT WITH OM? I am sorry hon. I don't buy it. I think quite maybe she was buying time at home, waiting to see what CARDS SHE COULD STACK IN HER FAVOR...and pull the ol' THIS MARRIAGE AIN'T WORKING AND IT IS NOT B/C OF ADULTERY...LOVE YA BUT NOT IN LOVE WITH YA stuff.

sounds like me she stuffed the OM underground long enough to BE CONVINCING so that when she goes before the judge she can say , "BUT YOUR HONOR...I DID TRY..I WORKED TO HEAL MY MARRIAGE BUT IT DID NOT HAPPEN. this has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY OLD AFFAIR."

That's exactly what my xh used as his defense..,if you can call it a defense. but it happens alot. my attorneys almost saw this coming and warned me against waiting another month or two...I waited thinking he was mentally unstable and about to have a breakdown...he was THAT OFF..THAT DISJOINTED...THAT BROKEN...but it was his SOUL SPLITTING IN HALF..that is what I now believe happened. He just ripped it right up and kept on the path to destruction.

Now if you wanna get thru fog, remember Orchid's simple tips. repeat her words back...BUT CHANGE A FEW SIMPLE PHRASES AND ADD A TEENY OUNCE OF TRUTH AND SEE HOW SHE TAKES IT...make HER AGREE WITH HER OWN FOG...even a ws can't do it!

and don't lecture to her about religion, God, etc. Tell her YOUR FAITH ISN'T THE PROBLEM HERE. That OM is the problem. Tell her you don't need meds....YOU NEED TRUTH! and just don't argue w/her. it will seem like lecturing and ws hate to see or hear that stuff.

I just think these two pushed it further underground and said "well let's wait six months, a year, whatever and then you work things out mrs. mortar on your end, and MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE AFFAIR IS OVER...OM bides his time away, until coast seems clear...and enuff time has passed where it could APPEAR TO THOSE NOT IN THE KNOW THAT WW JUST GAVE HER ALL AND COULDN'T BE THE WIFE SHE NEEDED TO BE...AND THAT THE AFFAIR WAS DEAD."

they all WANT US TO BELIEVE IT IS NOT THE AFFAIR THAT DRIVES THEM TO FILE OR TO SHACK UP...THEY BLAME US....THEY BLAME WHATEVER...BUT THEY FAIL TO STATE THE TRUTH...mortar this is the oldest lie in the book.

the spin and blame.

and she's trying it on you.

remember the frog? right now water's comfy and cool. do NOT LET THE FOGGED OUT WACKY WIFE TURN HEAT UP...if any heat's goin' up...YOU BE THE ONE TO TURN THE KNOB.

good news is you won custody last time...courts tend to lean in the direction of previous judgements...so that's good for the kids.

stay strong and DO ALL THINGS...DO ALL YOU CAN DO...because you will stand!

Mortarman

One last thought(see what my h has to deal with sometimes)

Maybe your wife feels the OM accepts her right where she is at this very moment.

Of course the OM appears 2 accept her as she is - better than MM, who only has 2 live with her day 2 day after all.

At this point in time, who cares about fog, aliens and motherships?

She's making her choice, and MM's prepared 2 move on. Heck, he was prepared 2 years ago.

I think that MM could be a kind and loving "coparent" if his W really does move out, even 2 live with the OM.

But I also believe that he's gleaned the lessons he's needed 2 learn from this experience. He doesn't need 2 go through it again (though perhaps I could be wrong). His W may need 2 learn more hard lessons, though. And that's what free will is supposed 2 be about - 2 let her learn them however she believes she needs 2 learn them. And what doesn't kill her will certainly make her stronger - or perhaps wiser.

I can see that this particular problem may be out of MM's hands, though.

-ol' 2long

Thanks BJS. Yes, I have done this. As a matter of fact, almsot the entire year that we were back together, i really tried to make sure I didnt jump to conclusions, tried to use all my newly learned listening skills. I tried to affirm her. And I do think this was a big reason why she said she thought I had changed. So, much of what you all have written is been a part of this.

But the last year...up until she filed and then I had evidence of the Troll around again, I had not even spoken to her about these things. I had tried to just engage her where she was at. Tried to get her to engage in some nights out, or watching a movie, or whatever. But to no avail. Sure, me acting this way made things a lot more pleasant between us. But in no way did she ever try to work on the relationship.

So, when she filed and I saw evidence of the Troll...it is at that point that I prayed and asked God what to do. And I think He is in agreement that it is "enough." So, since that point in mid-january, I really have not cared about her point-of-view. I havent cared to want to listen to why divorcing is the right thing, and it will be better for me. And I have told her so.

I really have reached the point where I do want it over with. That short of her having a come-to-Jesus moment and falling to her knees in frotn of Him and surrendering, then I do not want to make anymore effort on her behalf. It was after i received the message to let the unbeliever go, that I began to feel this way.

I'll be honest...anger overtook me for awhile. I was mad at her, mad at God and mad at myself for letting her back in and doing all of this for her. But that subsided after awhile. It has now turned to the point that I really do want to move on. As Mr. W. told me recently...there is a time when the WS has gone too far, and doesnt have a path back home. That happened in January.

Again, I do not discount the fact that the Lord has yet to speak on how this ends. So, there may be anything happening. But my motivations are no longer to save the marriage or even help my wife. I am tired. And God has released me.

Again, I have not been perfect. I have fought this battle fully, out i nthe open for everyone to see here and with our friends and family. Everyone knows my mistakes. And I wish I would have done better. But always, always, always...all I wanted was to get back the woman I knew. I have never intended to hurt her...while she has intended to destroy me!

I am learning much from all of your posts. And I do appreciate them. I grow with each step here.

In His arms.

I just keep thinking about what happened to her on 9/11...being found lying in the fetal position crying, and her husband in Bosnia.

She'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

I don't buy that Satan's got a hold of her, or all that fire and brimstone stuff, but I do believe she is walking in darkness and will pray that she finds the light soon, and that that glorious light will reunite her with her family MM...for her own sake as well as her childrens. We all know after living life long enough that waywards often end up broken and very sad.

So I will pray that she does find her way back home. and if she has to leave it for now to do that, and if you have to be left to learn lessons or fulfill your purpose, then so it will be.

My sister was working in NYC on that day, was trapped on the bridge giong to NJ as matter of fact...she has since divorced her husband, sold her home in Michigan and relocated to NYC leaving her children behind in Michigan (they are in college and visit her frequently)... she has changed, she is different.

It had a horrific effect on many, and not just those who witnessed it up close in NYC.

I am sorry MM, I respect you...your religious views drive me crazy but I very much respect you.

BB,

I stumbled around for the last hour to say what you just said. Thanks. it is what I was trying to say!!

In His arms.

Thanks Weaver.

Yes...we live very close to the Pentagon. So, this whole area was in upheaval that day!

I am not saying she is possessed by satan. i am sayign as you have...that she is walking in darkness. But Satan is the author of darkenss. When we walk in darkness, we follow him. Satan wants my marriage to fail. He wants peopel to give up on their own marriages because Mortarman's failed.

He wants me to curse God for this. He is fighting tooth and nail to get his way. I refuse to surrender!

In His arms.

You may be right, sir!

In His arms.