I have accepted that, 2Long. I dont know how things end for her. I have been patient with her...but she now wants to destroy me yet again. But she wont be allowed to this time. Even if that means she is lost forever. Again, I dont know how things end for her...but I was looking at the fact that this all so far may have been in order to get me to a different place...not to save my marriage. To get me to a different place because of her actions.

In His arms.

"The fact of the matter, from where I sit, is that MM, as the spiritual head of his household, does have the responsibility to address his wife's spiritual walk. "

I've held this in for years, because there is so much good in my Christian friends here, but:

I think this is at the root of your inability 2 get through 2 your W.

Never mind her ability 2 get her points across, or 2 accept your leadership. This is yours.

How is this hierarchy different from being unequal? Yoked or otherwise? Is it really, I mean REALLY, what the bible intended?

-ol' 2long

Good points Peachy...thanks!

In His arms.

MM,
Just wanted to say that I'm glad you didn't take offense to my post. You asked me to elaborate, but I'm not sure I have anything helpful to add. Except that I can really relate to the things bjs and 2long have written. So what happens next?
--SC

MM:

I can understand your feelings of time to let go of your marriage. You have fought an incredible battle and you are an inspiration to many.

I just don't want you to give up on your wife, on her salvation. The pain this will cause your children to know that mommy may not be with us in eternity. My 8y/o daughter would then decide that she wants to be wherever I am at this age.

I also believe your wife is crying out, just as a rebellious teen does when they don't know how to ask for help. Even as adults sometimes we just dont know how or how to use the tools. As a military wife who's husband sacrificed his family on numerous occasions for his career and country I understand some of the pain she may be feeling. Even though you have given that up that time can never be brought back. The military life brings such highs and such lows for everyone.

I just implore you to not give up on her as a person and as your children's mother. You have suffered great pain MM, however you are holding on to JESUS and feeling HIS great love and comfort. Your wife does not have that right now, all she has is darkness, fear, despair, and maybe a feeling of being unloveable and unworthy. I believe she will find her way back to the LORD, maybe not her way back to your marriage but please don't give up on her salvation. She needs your prayers now more than ever.

That was beautiful, bjs.

You 2, weaver.

-ol' 2long

2Long -


I don't have all my stuff with me (at work), but I'll try to answer as best as I can, though MM can do a better job of it (and may beat me to it before I get this posted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

On the surface, yes, it does appear to be an unequal heirarchy. It's something that I struggled with for quite a while (since I wanted a partner, not a servant).

I think it was MM, in his Husbands and Wives roles, that pointed out that even the husband is in a heirarchy. The husband is, or should be, submitted to Christ. In turn, the wife is submitted to him, and Christ is submitted to God the Father.

It's not a question of equality - it's more of a question of order. Anybody who has ever had experience with committees knows how ineffective they can be at making a decision (just look at the UN Executive Council). The husband, within the Christian view of marriage, is the final decision maker. That doesn't mean he does whatever he pleases.

In the ideal situation, the husband would be doing what Jesus asks of him. The wife is to submit under the husband. My memory is a bit foggy here, but as I recall, the Greek word that is translated as submission means something along the lines of lining up under - not "doing what you are told." If the husband is living according to God's will for himself and his family, the wife has nothing to fear by following his lead.

Wives can, and should, provide input and suggest decisions. As long as they ultimately follow what their husband decides. If the husband goes off-course, the wife will not be held responsible for that, and though she may suffer, God will take care of her. And if the husband is clearly doing something against God's will, the wife is not expected or required to follow.

So yes, it is a heirarchy, in some ways. Husbands and wives are equal, but have different roles. When all parties play their roles properly, things work well.

I know I'm not explaining this very well at all. Hopefully MM can unmuddy the waters that I've probably stirred up. If I get a chance I'll try and clarify what I'm trying to say later.

I do understand your question, and I do believe there is an answer. I just don't think I've explained it well enough yet.

(((((Mortarman)))))

My brother in the Lord Jesus, I feel as though I don't know enough about your situation, and/or what's been going on the past 4 months, to be able to offer any advice. So for now I will try keep it more general.

Let me begin with, what to me, is the fundamental question that needs to be answered before all other questions. WHO does your wife say that Jesus IS?

Her response will indicate where additional questions may need to be asked.

Now, if I can turn to ONE possibility of what is going on here:


This sounds amazingly like a "justification and rationalization" for committing a sin, specifically the sin of adultery against God.

This sounds so typical of a Mid-Life Crisis, ala; "Is this all there is?" sort of thing. Waking up, seeing herself at 35, kids, etc....and feeling lost in "other people's" issues while neglecting her own. Her "own" then becomes magnified and twisted into a "bigger than life" sort of thing, and the result is "okay, I'm selfish, can't help it, and need to just accept it and let everyone else be 'free of me.'"

Whether or not the OM has been quietly in the background or not during the past several years I don't know. But I'd say that it is a distinct possibility and NOT something that just occurred when she moved out. In my case I have been "battling" contacts for the past 4 years so I am a big believer in NO Contact being intregral to healing. When there is contact, or "dwelling" on contact that is "wished for," healing stops and stalls. One CANNOT have progress in a marriage when there is anyone other than God and the husband and wife involved, either physically or in thought.

But MM, I take Christ at His word. "NO ONE can snatch them out of my hand." Election happened way before time and EVERYTHING that happens, happens because God has allowed it to happen, not that He "condones" evil, bad, or sinful choices. God KNOWS the path that each of us will take. He knows how long it will take. He knows when He needs to "go and search for a lost sheep." He knows....

MM, I cannot speak to whether or not your wife is saved. Obviously she is behaving as an unbeliever, as do all of us when we choose sin as a response or action. As you pointed out, Matthew 18:15-20 IS for believers who are 'losing the current struggle against their sin-nature.' This is VERY much like Paul's lament....and I hear it in your wife's words of "selfishness."

So besides the KEY question I asked above, I would also like to know more about the 9/11 issue. Her reaction seemed to be "strongly emotional"(as in over identification and over empathizing with the losses suffered) or strongly accusatory against God "for letting this terrible thing happen!"(as sometimes happens with disasters, both big and small, where people are hurt and killed through "no fault of their own)

Bending the knee to God does not seem to be the right issue right now. I agree that we all need to surrender, but God does NOT ask for "blind surrender." Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind is the inclusive desire of God for us....and when we doubt or question, God WILL provide the answers so we will be able to get our questions answered and be ABLE to "bend the knee" in surrender to the one who IS Sovereign.

She even said lately, quote: "At 35, I have now realized that I am selfish and self-centered and I will have to learn that this is who I am now."

This has to do with doubting and NOT believing what God has said. It is "enthroning" self on the throne, and believers only do that when questions are not answered, allowing Satan to say, ever so slimely...."see, God didn't REALLY mean what He said!"

God does mean what He says. What He said that I want to reach out to you with is a simple fact...."Whenever two or more of you are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of you. If you ask anything in my name (according to the will of the Father) it will be done." There are AT LEAST two of us believers who are gathered together in thought....and God does not require proximity to each other, just proximity to HIM.

Do NOT confuse that promise as a "wish list" where we get OUR will fulfilled. The Father's will is that your wife love Him with all of her heart, mind and soul. So WHAT are the "demonesque" questions that have been going unaswered in her mind?

What questions, no matter how "unChristian sounding" they might seem, are demonizing and tormenting her mind?

God bless and comfort you brother. May He grant wisdom and understanding to see clearly. May your wife answer the first question, and only that question. The rest can wait as the Lord waits on her.

(((((MM)))))

(((Mortarman)))

No advice or recommendations. Just a hand on your shoulder. I will pray for you and your children.

From my knothole it looks to have been pretty MB-A-Typical. The A probably never did really end.

You have gone above and beyond. You deserve the MB equivalent of a CMH.

With prayers,

***I just keep thinking about what happened to her on 9/11...being found lying in the fetal position crying, and her husband in Bosnia.***

I agree with Weaver. I think this is the real source of the trouble, MM, and I wish you would address this.

She was obviously terrified by this happening so close to home - you said you live near the Pentagon - and she has a husband who is in the military to start with. Never mind the Twin Towers - the biggest military target in the world was also hit that day and many people died. Who's next? You? You're in the military. Why not?

Did you have any empathy for her in this situation?

Or, maybe Satan would rather have you ignore your wife's very real fears and just keep hammering her with religious education until she finally does flee to another man - one who may indeed be the scum of the earth, but who will at least Be There For Her if and when something like 9/11 happens again.

I really don't mean to be disrespectful, but I think you are avoiding the real problem in a desperate attempt to blame it on something that makes sense to you and takes you off the hook.

Maybe, instead of being a hardhearted backsliding sinner, your wife is really just a confused and terrified young woman who was severely traumatized that day and could not turn to her husband for comfort or support either physically or emotionally because he simply wasn't there.

I can relate to her. My WH travels extensively on business. His company is owned by Morgan Stanley, which was located in several floors in one of the Towers. He could easily have been on one of those planes. He could well have been in the Morgan Stanley offices. My heart goes cold every time he flies anywhere, which is several times a month.

But I could never talk to him about this because he sneers at my feelings and tells me I am coward ruled by my fears, and if I just lived in the real world I wouldn't worry about stuff like this.

You remind me a lot of him.

I'm not excusing your wife's actions with OM for one second, but I think you are entirely missing the real picture here and I am very sad for both of you.

She just needs her husband, Mortarman. You can lead her to Jesus later. Right now, she just wants her husband.
Mulan

MM

Ok I keep thinking on this and I also think that some of this goes back to 9/11 especially since you guys live near the Pentagon.

I may be way off but I will go back to 9/11 as a military wife with a spouse deployed. You sound a lot like my h in how he viewed his relationship with the military and how he has taken it to heart. As wives we come to not discuss our fears with you as things happen. We know that if we give you for one moment something to take your mind off your job it could cost you your life. We don't get to talk to you when you get home because usually you guys don't come home for very long times and we as wives learn to shelf our needs as wives for comfort. We are expected to be strong for our husbands, children, friends, families, and other military spouses. When all we really want is the comfort from our husbands. So we begin to numb ourselves.

Some of us put hedges around ourselves to protect us from the sin of infidelity creeping in. I had a single male neighbor who spent more time with my kids in ten years than my h. Who was always there when my h was not. Whom my son would become vey excited to see when he pulled up every day. My h did not call the day 9/11 happened, however I knew he comforted others he was with both male and female. I just needed to hear his voice to have him tell me he loved me but he couldnt do that. We had a very large earthquake happen and all's I got was 2 minutes on the phone, he had other more important things to do than to be on the phone with me. I needed a few more minutes of his time but he couldn't give them to me. This repeated itself over and over in our almost 20 years of marriage. I had this longing to know that I meant more to him than the people he worked with and for, however that was not true because of the type of work he does.

I struggled through all of this because even though I was a Christian I was not looking to JESUS to fulfill me. I thought my h could do that for me. I walked in incredible pain during this time. I wanted to be comforted and loved by my h. I could have been the one committing infidelity however I knew the danger I was in because of the state of my marriage and the needs I so needed to be met. Also my neighbor respected myself, my h and my kids and never made advances. The neighbor would not come into my house unless other adults were there. I was Blessed to have a friends tell me what I needed to hear, to keep me focused on JESUS. No matter what pain I was feeling they always focused me on where it needed to be.

Then came my h EA, while he was overseas. I could do nothing but pray and give my h to GOD. GOD used this time to bring me to a closer walk with HIM and for that I am vey thankful for this walk I have walked. I now know that JESUS is the one who provides all of my needs, the ONE who is always there for me no matter what. That my h will fail me however JESUS will hold me give me strength. It was an incredibly hard lesson to learn but one I am very thankful to learn. I used to think that if something happened to my h I would never make it through. I no longer believe that I know that without JESUS I would not make it through.

This does not take away the pain of not having my husband with me during the difficult times. Of knowing that any minute we would get the call and he would never be coming home. Its not an excuse for what she has done not at all. She was wrong. I'm not beating on you for doing what you were doing at the time. In fact I am very thankful to you and to my h and many others like you guys. I'm just saying that we want our h to love us more than their military. To give us what they give the people in their unit. Military wives(and many others ie police, firefighter) wives feel like we always have to be strong, can't tell you we need you because we would be weak. We hear "but you knew what you were getting when you married military" No not really, we thought it would be ok. We didn't realize we would be living with a part of us constantly missing.

I'm not sure what I am trying to get at here. I'm not beating you up for being deployed when these things happen. Maybe trying to show you the utter fear and lonliness we feel while still trying to be a supportive wife.

I do not blame you or my h for being gone or doing what you guys have done.

I hope this makes sense.

I will stick my neck out one more time - bjs's post is a very good one. But I must add that just having Jesus is not enough for anyone -is it? If that were true, each and every person on earth could just live alone in his or her own little cell like a monk and not need or want any other human being for comfort or support or companionship - much less need or want a husband or a wife.

I know how important your religious beliefs are to you. Nobody is saying to turn away from that. I am just saying, Please remember that your wife needs and wants her husband, too, and please don't berate her because she wanted first to turn *you* when she was frightned and alone instead of turning to God.

She's still looking for her husband, MM. I'd bet the house on that. She knows where to find God. Right now, she wants to know where to find *you.*
Mulan

Dear God, Please look down on your servant and our brother MM and bring some peace into his life.. He has done Your work here on earth and is fighting the good fight. The fight of his life, Dear God.

Dear God, please guide him through this battle he is in right now.. Please bring him peace and guidance and let him feel the love from all of us on MB.

Thank you Dear God for allowing him to guide us too.


Sending my very, very best regards Motarman,
carnation

Mortarman..as much as I admire and respect you..I agree a lot with what Mulan is saying here...



You guys know my by now, I probably would not have worded it this way but I previouly asked you a similar question, MM..

How do you know that Satan is not speaking to you..encouraging you to turn away from your wife?

I'm not quoting Scripture here but I believe that Satan wants to destroy marriages and the Lord brought you and your wife together and I do not want to believe that he is using your marital crises as a means of calling you to help others...THE SPIRIT IS TELLING YOU THIS?

How can you be sure that this is not your own rationalization for this? You are human..You can be directed by rage towards your wife for what she is doing/has done..



Consider what we are saying from a woman's perspective.

MM, if this is what she would say, then I really hope that you will continue to examine your part in the destruction of your marriage.


Then God will probably have strong words for her. For YOU to judge her so harshly, no matter what she's doing, is still a DJ and abusive.

You can, of course, make clear to her the pain that her actions cause you. You can, of course, say that what she's doing is not okay. And you can set a boundary, as well. You can say, "This thing that is happening is too painful for me. I can't stay here and allow you to continue to hurt me like this."


WH suggests that when you disagree with your spouse, it's healthy -- if you come to the table respecting your different value systems and each hoping to learn from the other. In all that you've said, MM, I haven't heard that. You've been a great teacher in all that you write here, MM. Many folks have believed what you have said because of the clarity and thoughtfulness of your writing. And the conviction of it.

What I'm reading is that you carry that same attribute into your marriage. Something that makes you a good teacher and community member here probably also makes you an impossible poopoohead to live with. Combine that with the fact that you proved that you are willing to use the "nuclear" option (custody)? Jeez, MM, you've got a hard road ahead of you.

You may certainly decide that you're not willing to work to save your marriage anymore. You may also absolutely decide that your wife is going to heck in a handbasket.

I'm pretty sure that either one of those convictions alone would doom your marriage. The combination? Well, your marriage is in pretty dire straits.

And then there's your wife's marriage -- her experience of the married life you two have had. Her marriage sounds like it has been a living ****** sometimes, and that you have broken her. I bet I would be listening to a woman's terror about never seeing her children again, a woman's terror about a man who has destroyed her and who has not learned compassion -- and therefore will destroy her again if he gets the chance.

MM, I hope you will study about verbal and emotional abuse. I hope you'll read about what it does to people. You might start with You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, by Steven Stosny. It's written for abused spouses. And I'm telling you: Your wife has been abused.

I'd like you to look that full on and own it, and learn from it. Whether your marriage survives or not, it's important.

I've always found Mortarman to be extraordinarily compassionate and respectful of others on this forum. He is strong in his Christian beliefs, slow to anger, and quick to forgive. He has many years of experience with the woman who betrayed him, her marriage, her family, and her religion by committing adultery. He knows her better than anyone else.

I see Mortarman is judgmental and is unwilling to allow his children to be held captive by that woman and exposed to the unsavory men she allows into her life. That’s outstanding. I applaud him for that. He is a loving father and the children need him.

I see absolutely no grounds for saying his wife has been abused in any shape, form, or fashion. She committed adultery because she is, as she confesses herself to be, selfish and unprincipled. She made the choice to be as she is and has not repented. So be it.

Mortarman seeks to raise his children as best he can and keep a cruel, evil woman from influencing them. There’s nothing in the world wrong with that. Good for you, Mortarman. Stay the course. Your children deserve only the best and they will not get that with your ex-wife.

There's been some questions about MM's wife, and what her view of the marriage is and what she feels MM may have done wrong. I don't know MM's situation, but it seems like there's some assumptions being made that he either didn't do anything to fix himself or has not yet acknowledged the issues he contributed to whatever state their marriage was in.

I understand that people are asking the questions they ask because they're concerned and want to see MM's marriage (and everyone else's) succeed if possible. It just seems that some of the questions are more accusations than questions. MM's focus, from what I've read today, is more on him and his kids, than on his marriage. He's having to make a tough choice - continue to suffer abuse (to one degree or another) from his wife, or let her go. From what I know, he's already done Plan A and Plan B, and well.

He's also a Christian, so there is an added spiritual dimension to this. As for whether God is talking to him or Satan, I was once told, early in my situation, that the way to determine God's will (versus your own masquerading as God's will) was to read the scripture, pray, and seek wise counsel. I do believe that MM has done all three.

Not trying to force my opinion here or say others are wrong. I do think that the focus of this thread has gotten somewhat off-track. Of course, that's just my opinion, and could be entirely wrong. It wouldn't be the first time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

More to say, but DD wants stories.

What if..............Just what if........The success of the marriage is the ending of it? What if?????

Ponder that one. It makes sense for ****some**** people here (more than we all want to generally acknowledge).

Just my .02 here.

Mortarman, I hope to God you get custody of those kids. Please do NOT ever let this woman (Chameleon) get those children. My worst fear for you has never been her affair resurfacing (I have always sadly secretly believed that that was still happening just more undercover) but that your willingess and desperate need for this marriage to stay salavageable for your family staying intact would eventually and ironically be your undoing. I am not saying that is the case...I don't know what I am saying I guess.

Please take acre of yourself here. NUMERU UNO is what matters here....for the sake of your children. People can't be helped when they don't want to help themselves.

LM

I think we're all just trying 2 help MM think of avenues that he might not have tried, is all.

He certainly has the option at this point 2 choose not 2 fight the DV.

-ol' 2long

brokenbird, I tend to agree with you. One of the things that seems to be missing, or forgotten, in some of the messages is that Mortarman is under NO obligation to make any changes in himself or to NOT divorce his wife.

THE issue begins with the premise that an affair is "in the hands of the Wayward Spouse" and Recovery or Divorce is in the "hands of the Betrayed Spouse."

Biblically, Mortarman is under NO obligation to stay in the marriage or to try to recover the marriage. He CAN choose to stay, forgive, and attempt to recover the marriage. He CAN even do a self-assessment and decide that there are things about himself that he would like to change, in part to enhance the recovery and in part to make changes that he feels are necessary REGARDLESS of continuation or ending of the marriage.

The marriage covenant was BROKEN. Jesus made NO qualifiers when speaking to the Pharisees about divorce. "...EXCEPT FOR marital unfaithfulness." Jesus granted the sole and exclusive right to the FAITHFUL SPOUSE (to the marriage covenant), not the "perfect spouse," to divorce if they felt that was the direction for themselves.

Adultery IS THAT SERIOUS and devastating. That ANY Betrayed Spouse chooses to attempt recovery is, itself, amazing and a true expression of love in the face of agony and pain. NO ONE begins recovery already "out of the pit of despair." ALL Betrayed Spouses begin recovery from the lowest emotional pit imaginable. They do so in love and hope....but sometimes the spouse does NOT also stick with it through the ups and downs and emotional strains. No matter what, marriage TAKES two people who are at least TRYING.

For Christians, it is very "tough" sometimes to be Christ's "stand in" in the marriage simply because we are NOT God and we are still encased in a sinful body that WE struggle against under "normal circumstances." And recovery from adultery is anything BUT "normal."

When the Unfaithful Spouse is a professing Christian, their first commitment is to God and HIS commands. If they will NOT be faithful to God and attempt to humbly submit to God's commands, there is little chance that they will "submit" to anything their Faithful Spouse might say, including "bend the knee."

So the issue remains an issue of the heart and the individual's personal relationship with God, in Christ. That is the essence of God's admonition to NOT make a choice going into marriage to take someone who is NOT a believer as a spouse and CHOOSE and unevenly yoked marriage.

So before the marriage could heal, or before ANY changes that Mortarman might make, or has made, in himself could have a positive effect on the recovery of the marriage, his wife has to first address her own relationship with Christ. That self-examination CAN be done simultaneously with an ongoing recovery effort, but that relationship MUST be established, or restorted, before the recovery can progress to completion. God WILL NOT BE MOCKED OR LIED TO. Unlike us, God does know the heart. He sees through all "fronts" and "appearances" and sees trust in the Lord and submission to God as the "building blocks" of restoration and sanctification.

God has made it clear. Mortarman has the right to a divorce if he so chooses. His wife does NOT have that right.

Mortarman is under NO obligation to make any changes in himself in order to "Win back" his unfaithful spouse. BUT he WILL make changes simply because he has surrendered HIS life to Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit WILL show him things that need changing for God's glory.

THAT change, while striving to walk closer to God, IS the reason that "God's Triangle" of marriage WORKS. It IS impossible for a husband and wife, both walking individually closer with God, to NOT also, simultaneously, grow closer to each other.

So I am back to trying to understand what is going on in MM's wife's head. That confusion and doubt are present is evident. What is unclear is what is causing them. And the answers to that BEGIN with answering the question of "who do YOU(Mrs. MM) say that I am?" That is the fundamental starting question for all of us, each and every one of us.

God bless.