Mulan - And your husband's problem is with his Corporation, not with you. Is that the analogy you want to posit?

Don't be ridiculous, of course she "has something against Mortarman" that she uses for a justification and rationalization to sin against God's commands, and against Mortarman.

But, SIN is first and foremost against God. It is a willful choice to sin against God's commands, regardless of the circumstances in one's life. Do I need to cite examples from the Bible to show how "obedience" to God's commands regardless of personal circumstances IS what God wants from each of us?

Shall we talk about things like the "fiery furnace" or the "lion's den?"

WHAT IS the motivation for your continuing attacks on Mortarman?

Mulan,

You seem to have a problem with this statement. Why?

In His arms.

This is true MM. It reminded me of a devotional I read this morning by Dr. Ronald Powell...I will share it with you.

----------------------------------------

"Identity & Purpose"
1Jo 4:12b... If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

May 4, 2006

My Children,
I created you to find your true identity in your relationship with Me.Only by My Spirit can you be properly defined. It is only as you walk in relationship with Me that you can know true loving relationships with any other human. Without being My friend at the citadel of your being, you will ever seek to make your human relationships a substitute for Me for whom you were made. Find your meaning and purpose in Me and I will grant you rich safe human relationships.

-------------------------------------------


No human effort will do....God is demolishing that fence, and the stongholds that have come with it!!

Remember...The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine POWER to DEMOLISH arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowlege of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

In Ephesians we are reminded of the weapons...

--The Defensive Weapons--

Truth
Salvation
Righteousness
Gospel of Peace
Faith

--The Offensive Weapons--

The Word of God
Prayer in the Spirit

Keep fighting the good fight MM.

We are asking God to demolish the stongholds in your wife, and marriage. That all resistance will be demolished, and that LOVE will reign, and repentance will come.

Peace to you MM,
Lady

Mulan, your "self sacrifice" and rationalization for allowing/tolerating your husband's behavior is touching. I assume you are teaching your son to emulate your husband's treatment of you as "how to be a man and a good husband."




I never said that. What I said is that your advice comes from one who believes in "do as I say, not as I do." The courage of your own convictions is lacking, and all such advice should be received with caution, if not suspect.




Normally, Mulan, that is exactly what I do. But when you start "going after Mortarman" as if YOU have the answers, and have proven those answers in your own marriage, then I do take the time to examine what "is said, versus what is done."

Feel free to skip all of my posts. You have obviously chosen to skip all advice and opinion of MB, Scripture, etc. anyway...."all for the sake of your son."

You ARE entitled to "Have it your way" in your own marriage. But kindly reserve me the same right and Mortarman the same right that you claim for yourself.

(((((Ladysheep)))))

Wonderful, simple, and clear.

God bless!

MM,

It's painful to see the hurt you are obviously feeling. It's painful to see a marriage apparently falling apart. It's painful to read all the religous dialogue.

I am very sorry, but I honestly do not see compassionate Christ-like love in your postings about your wife. I see reasons for what you are doing, denounciations of what she is doing, demands that she follow Christ, and defensiveness of your behavior.

I haven't read all your story. I can't imagine the pain you must feel knowing the enemy of your marriage is back in the picture and that the woman you pledged to love and cherish for life is running away from you and your family.

I certainly won't dispute that a wife is to respect her husband, and neither will I dispute that she is to be in Biblical submission to her husband. But, a husband is supposed to be as Christ is for the church. He is to woe her, pursue her, let her go to her own consequences if she must, but to never lose sight of the love and compassion Christ feels for his church.

We are allowed to divorce because of the hardness of our hearts ("He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Matthew 19:8) I used to think that meant only that one person couldn't forgive. I'm beginning to believe it means much more than that. Compassion is the only word that even comes close to describing what I think it might actually mean.

Contrary to what (I believe) FH wrote, your wife DOES have biblical grounds to divorce you. You also committed adultery. (Before anyone asks me if I consider porn on the same level as a physical or emotional affair - not me, but Jesus ["But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:28]) Yes, you have repented of it, you have sought forgiveness from both your wife and your God, but your wife appears to have a hard heart. She is still within her rights.

Even if your wife got right with Jesus, repented and all that stuff, it is not a guarantee that your marriage would survive. Who knows what hardness might show up in your heart?

But more than that, I'm sort of confused at your attitude towards your wife's christianity. I thought you had decided she was an unbeliever. I understand you are not talking to her anymore about this issue, but why are you on this board saying what she must do - as if she were a Christian who needed some discipline? If she is an unbeliever, you must approach her as such. How would you approach someone like that?

I'm worried about you - which is really the only reason I'm writing. I don't want to get into a great theological debate with anyone. I applaud your decision to let her go to her own consequences. What else can you do?

I marvel at Jesus' interactions with people. When he let the rich young ruler go, after he had proven he couldn't give up his riches, Jesus never said a negative thing about him. All he did was mention that it would be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I can tell you are doing the best you can with what you've been given. Have you ever wondered if God is calling you to be another Hosea? I did - when I wasn't sure if my husband would give up the porn or not. I wasn't certain (and still am not) I could surrender myself to something like that and keep a heart soft enough to receive someone who may - or may not - have repented.

One last thought. A lot of my hardness of heart comes from not being able to accept that my H is human, that he was given total freedom of choice, that his choices are a reflection of him, that I can in no way tell him how to behave. If I expostulate to him on how he should behave according to the Master Plan, if I force him to bend the knee to Jesus, what is the honor in that? It has to come from within him. It frustrates me to think that God may have to reach him in a radically different way than I would, and in a way that I would most likely never expect.

My prayers are with you. Your road is hard.

God bless,
SLA

Unfortunately, you havent seen the 4 years of where I have been loving and accepting. Where I did in fact try to woo her. It is at this time, that I have sought the next step. the next step is as Scripture states: to let the "unbeliever" go and treat them as a sinner or tax gatherer...so that she might be won by the Lord. Sometimes, the compassionate and loving thing to do is to kick the addict out of the house and let them face the consequences of their decisions. I am nto kicking her out, but I am not making any effort toward wooing her.

Jesus loved Judas. But when it was time for Judas to betray Him, Jesus just told him to go and do what he must. He didnt try to argue with him or woo him. He just said "go." Did Jesus love him any less? Nope. Was Jesus being unloving? Nope. He just released Judas to his hard heart. As I have done with my wife in the last week.


I know you havent. As I said, if you knew the whole story, then you would know that I have doen the things that I should have. I have been compassionate and forgiving and understanding. But to no avail. This now is the next step.


As I said...I have not lsot sight of my love for her. But, as my church has done, she has been declared as if an "unbeliever," and I must now let her go to her consequences. As the father did with the Prodical Son...he let him go.


Could be. But I am not divorcing my wife...she is trying to divorce me.


Uuhhh, I beg to differ. The original text in Hebrew doesnt just speak to "marital unfaithfulness." The word used there speaks to continued marital unfaithfulness. It means that if your spouse went out and got drunk and had a one tiem affair, and came hoem repetent, then you are not within your rights to divorce that spouse. But, if your spouse continues in their actions, then you are within your rights to divorce.

I will tell you that if my wife repented today and tried to come back, I would have only one choice but to accept her. I would NOT have the choice of divorce, if I wanted to follow the Lord.


Aaahhh, very true! What I am saying is that my knee is bent. If hers were also bent, then we would both be doing the Lord's will. That is ALWAYS the RIGHT way to do things.


Dont knwo if she is an unbeliever. But a Christian who is in continued sin and unrepentent is to be treated as an unbeliever. There are whole texts to this in Matthew as well as Hebrews.

And how am I to treat an unbelieving spouse who does not want to be in the marriage. I am to let the unbeliever go. As I am doing. If she is indeed saved, Jesus will get to her. If she is not, then she has far worse problems!


Wish I knew right now. God is tellign me to let her go...and to rest. Right now, that is all I am capable of. but these discussions are strengthening me. Please believe that. I may be back in the game soon. I have just needed to catch my breath.


He may be. I know this all isnt over yet. Folks, the game is still on. Mortarman is just taking a break and getting a Gatorade.


All true. I am not forcing my wife to do anything. Never have. But, I do remind her that the only way back is thru Jesus. She then has choices to make.


Thank you SLA!!

In His arms.

MM:

I haven't read the other replies you've gotten and made yet. I wanted 2 respond 2 this one first. You've given me a lot of info that gives me a clearer pic2re of where you're "at."

"It is RIGHT NOW that I am at thsi point where I would really rather be right than married. It hasnt been that way the last 4 years."

It's interesting that you say this now. I was just thinking the same thing over the weekend. If we were in counseling, and a counselor asked me that question now, I would most definitely say that I think it's time 2 be right, and then married, if that's not in conflict with being right. I understand this completely. It *is* time.

"I have reached the point right now where I think she needs to get the consequences of her actions. I think both her and the Troll need to realize what their actions entail. I think she needs to realize just how much she has here and just how far I have gone for her. And how is that going to happen? Well, by losing all of it...and much more."

Most definitely. It sounds like you've done all you can, by the books (if for far longer than you would have if what you'd been told - that the A was over - had been true).

So, what happens next? What does your "resting" entail/require? Sounds like a firm plan B is in order 2 me. Is she planning on leaving 2 be with the OM? You might want 2 set the date yourself. Is she planning on filing for DV? You might want 2 still set the date for her depar2re yourself, then go dark, and let her "do" what she'll do. That sounds like "rest" 2 me. Deep, dark, plan B. And since you've done it all before, it's going 2 take some serious effort for her 2 prove compliance before she can re2rn home again - assuming she wants 2 (or you're receptive).

"The stalemate...the fence...is gone. I wont allow it one day further. Even if that means she leaves for good. So be it."

Sounds like the deadline for her depar2re must be 2day. Is it?

"As I said...right now, I am not interested in other ways. I need rest. To catch my breath."

Give yourself the gift of plan B, then.

-ol' 2long

FH:

"I find it difficult to understand why so many "knowledgeable" veterans of MB are "piling on" the Betrayed Spouse here instead of the incalcitrant Wayward Spouse, IF any "piling on" is needed at all. Either the Wayward Spouse IS "100 percent" responsible for choosing adultery, regardless of marital "atmosphere," OR the MB principles and premises themselves are NOT correct either."

This is an easy one. MM is here. Mrs MM isn't here.

"Unless it's simply another case of bias against Christians and "fair game" to attack Christians and their deeply held beliefs. I would hope it's not that and that all it is is some misguided opinions."

JL biased against Christians? Misguided?

I've heard it all. I can die now...

-ol' 2long

I agree! Take your own very wise advise!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I would LOVE to hear from Mrs Mortarman as 2Long suggested. (Kinda suggested. lol)

We are only hearing this one side; typical of this forum but how about including her in this conversation?
Maybe Members here could HELP her?

Has she read this thread and what you have been saying about her?

Earlier on, it was mentioned for her to join in Marriage Builders discussion site and you said something like she would just be critical of you.

Holy Moly, MM, what have you been of her?

And this sentence so bothers me; your PRETEND Plan B or giving her the silent treatment. SO VERY CRUEL.

While SPOTLIGHTING HER sins, are you blinded to your own? (We are all sinners, every single one of us.)

Mortarman quote: "Right now, there are NO more discussions going on with my wife. I am not filling one EN of hers right now. The only talk is concerning the kids. And that is brief and to the point. She tried last night to strike up a conversation with me."

Why are you doing this??? How can your marriage possibly recover in this kind of a home environment?

Cool! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Which strata would you like the bones placed in order to confound and confuse the misguided? Perhaps there's still some room next to Piltdown Man?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


But on serious note, yes, in this instance it is my opinion that JL is misguided in what he said to MM.

I can't tell you how many times I have "heard it all" from folks on MB, so my opinion and your reaction is nothing new either. I vividly remember JL advising me to go immediately to a strict Plan B when I first arrived here 4 years and 3 days ago. I didn't take his advice then, choosing a modified Plan B instead, and I don't think his advice to MM is appropriate to MM's situation right now either.

Grace, repentance is needed before there CAN be any possibility of recovery. Without that, all you get is what Mulan has chosen, to live with an unfaithful spouse for some other reason. If you want more possibilities on this, I would suggest you send a post to Formerly Georgia Guy (FGG) as he had a very similar situation and I "argued" for a time much like you are arguing.

But there comes a time when you have to "let them" and move on. That is where, after 4 years, Mortarman is. It's not an easy choice, it's not the "only option," but it IS his right to do what he thinks is best in his situation, since he has all the knowledge and we only have what has been shared through posting.

God bless.

Forever, I hear what you and MM are saying....

I have a question...

Bear with me for a moment and look at this STRICTLY from a MB point of view....

Don't the Harleys recommend two years in Plan B?

Hasn't MM, himself, encouraged us to follow this PLAN strictly?

I don't get the 4 years cop-out...

Yes, he has the the scriptural right to divorce his wife...OK

But the Lord still hates divorce and if there is a way to prevent it (using MBers), I believe that MY LORD would support MM in this...hold him IN HIS ARMS...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

***Without that, all you get is what Mulan has chosen, to live with an unfaithful spouse for some other reason.***

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from making disparaging postings about me as if I am a piece of furniture with no feelings. WH treats me the same way. I find it extremely rude. I have never posted this way about you or about anyone else on this board.

You made many harsh and very insulting remarks about me today. If you had read my thread I started yesterday - the one about my son - instead of just dredging up the old ones, you would know that you are way off base in your judgment of who I am and why I have made the choices I have made.

You are going on "Ignore" as of right now.

In any case, this thread is not about me. It's about MM. Please leave it that way.
Mulan

Cool!




And I would submit that you have been treating Mortarman the same way based upon your projection of your hurts by your husband onto Mortarman.

One more time, "do as I say, not as I do" is equally "rude" when you are trying to chastise someone like you have been attempting with MM.

Without repentance on the part of the Wayward Spouse, Mulan, all you get IS what you have chosen. It is your right to choose to live in marriage however you wish to choose, but don't project your frustrations onto someone else and tell them what THEY should do when you are unwilling to follow your own advice.

It’s interesting the old saw “would you rather be right or rather be married” (and the reverse) has arisen. This tired cliché was popular when I first came to MB. And here it is raising its ugly head again. I hated this line at first. But I thought the experts on MB must know something I don’t so I tried to believe in it, the party line. But I realized I couldn’t live such a phoney life and I started hating it again, and I still do.

Now it sounds as if some others are as disgusted with it as I am.

I chose to be right, as in ethical. My FWW could join me or not. She did. QED.

But it took a textbook Plan A and a textbook Plan B to get this far. Both of them!

The so-called modified MB Plans touted in this thread mean about as much to me as “Do I want to be right or do I want to be married...”

I chose to be right and I did it by the book with MB coaching. FWW and I do not have nearly as much trouble as some of the posters on this thread, and we are talking a huge VLTA with multiple D-Days to overcome. QED, again.

Modified MB plans (to meet your oh-so-unique circumstances and beliefs) reap modified NC and modified recovery and a modified marriage.

IMO get back to the basics, as Mel posted to me once a long time ago:

1. Call the MB counseling center – it’s worth it. Cheap even, compaired to a D.

2. Keep your Plan A focused and relatively short - untraining a cake-eater is way too hard.

3. Plan B – by the book. If options are available, or choices need to be made, see 1.

4. Nuclear Exposure - definitely called for in your sitch MM (and maybe yours too FH and Mulan). NE is recommended way more often than you think.


Then something useful will happen. I guarantee it.


With prayers,

PS: No insult to anyone intended. I think maybe I'm getting frustrated by this thread - I will stay off it now.

"'I've heard it all. I can die now...'

Cool! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Which strata would you like the bones placed in order to confound and confuse the misguided? Perhaps there's still some room next to Piltdown Man?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />"

Well, $h!+ howdy, FH! You're in rare form 2day. Let's see. The Pleistocene is over, the Holocene ought 2 be declared over... ...considering the company, maybe this time-stratigraphic sequence should be labeled the "Plasticine."

"But on serious note, yes, in this instance it is my opinion that JL is misguided in what he said to MM."

I think that this is the most honest thing I think I've ever heard you say 2 me, FH. Indeed, it is your opinion. It's my opinion that your assessment is incorrect. It is also my opinion that MM isn't an idiot and won't be mislead by anything someone so thoughtful as JL might say, assuming he doesn't agree with it.

"I can't tell you how many times I have "heard it all" from folks on MB, so my opinion and your reaction is nothing new either. I vividly remember JL advising me to go immediately to a strict Plan B when I first arrived here 4 years and 3 days ago. I didn't take his advice then, choosing a modified Plan B instead, and I don't think his advice to MM is appropriate to MM's situation right now either."

You didn't do a modified plan B. I never did a modified plan A or B. You did a plan FH. MM did a plan MM. Well, I'm ac2ally of the opinion that he did a plan B 3 or 4 years ago, but it didn't "work" because his W wasn't sincerely ready for recovery - she intentionally faked it.

If you (or I) had followed JL's (and many others') advice 2 go 2 plan B when we were given it years ago, maybe things would have happened faster than they have. They sure would have been different.

And that's not a disrespectful comment 2 you or Mulan or me or JL or anybody doling out such "advice", either. We made the choices we made, given the options we were faced with, for our own reasons.

I happen 2 think that my choices are finally coming 2 positive fruition in my M, but I sure do recognize that I might have sped the process along considerably if I'd chosen a tried and true "method" and stuck with it 4 and a half years ago.

MM can and will do what he thinks is right, regardless of what you or I or anyone says. I think he's strong enough that he won't be misled by advice that others might interpret as "misguided". He can make his own determinations.

respectfully (with a little sarcasm thrown in, admittedly)
-ol' 2long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, I can't read the original Hebrew so I can't debate with you the linguistics. I can only read English (which I truly do lament), so all I can go by is my language, so that is the basis for my argument. I stand by it - until such a time as I learn Hebrew.

What I was trying to convey about the unbeliever is that you can not approach an unbeliever as if they were a Christian. You can not tell them to go get right with Jesus, you can't tell them to be submissive to their husband (or to be the head of the household if they are men), or anything that is going to smack of religiousity. You need to be kind. In all ways, in all conversations, in all your thoughts.

If your wife were to come here and read the things you have written, do you truly believe she would see compassion and love in how you speak of her? Are you speaking the truth. Oh, yes. But at what cost? I wasn't speaking of the last 4 years of your marriage when I said I didn't see compassion or Christ-like love. I was speaking of this thread. Read it as if you were your wife.

As I've said before, I don't think you do have a choice. You've got to let her go. Good for you for having the fortitude to do it. But, do it properly. The silent treatment is horrid. I know, I spent years on the receiving end. It's harder for women than men. When I returned the "favor", repaying evil for evil, my H didn't even notice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It used to bug me that my marrige coach was so nice to my H. Here he'd betrayed our marriage vows, cut me out of our sex life, chosen to become faithless in thoughts, and on and on. It was aggravating to have to look at the situation from his point of view, to try and understand his hurt.

I just don't see any compassion for who your wife is - right now - in your posts. I don't know how to say it in any other way.

God bless your journey.

SLA

2long, "second guessing" is normal, though not often profitable. You did what you did and I did what I did. I guess that with limited exception, I don't much believe in "one size fits all." A good example is differences of opinion that many on MB have all the time. IF there WAS "one way," that worked all the time, I guess we'd all be rich and there would be no "problems."




Well of course I did a plan. I call it a Modified Plan B because it including kicking her out of the house and only went to maintaining contact because she had an immediate "awakening" to how big a mistake she was making, so I told her plainly that until she worked her way through it and "got right with God first," there was no coming home. However, when she was ready to repent and seek God's forgiveness, I, too stood ready to forgive her and attempt to recover our marriage if she wanted to try. The communication line was kept open so we could talk about Scripture, being a daily Bible study every morning (I bought 2 identical books so we could study the same passage every day even though we were living apart.

There was never any doubt, "getting right with God came first." I was not accepting anything less than an "evenly yoked marriage," as it was when we first married. So, yes, it was a plan, based in humble submission to, and obedience of, God's commands. A Christian can do no less.

And understand that I an not, was I then, talking about "perfection" or "doing it perfectly." I was talking about surrendering one's will to God as a starting point. It's pretty hard getting anywhere without taking the first step.



As for the "other thing," I was thinking more along the lines of Protozoic. REALLY mess with people's minds to find "dem bones, dem bones" in that strata. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />