Hmmm... I'm not sure I would assume that "not much was happening".

Where's the fire??? Why's she in such a big hurry?

It seems kind of weird to me that OM is leaving his wife and child....while WW is increasing her demands for separation. One would think that maybe she's afraid there's something of a time crunch.

If OM weren't a factor, maybe she'd be feeling a little less rushed in making such an important decision. Maybe he's leaning on her a little bit in order to get her to make it?

In any event, if it were me...I'd Plan A my butt off for as long as she's on the fence. You can still set your boundary at "I'm not gonna HELP you break up our family".

You should certainly display your ability to meet ENs within the marital relationship. You're just not agreeing to meet her 'need to cheat' outside of it.

Last night was difficult. I arrived home from work to find the classifieds open with a few apartments circled. She said she found one that she wanted to go look at. I asked her how long the lease was for and she replied 1 year. I explained to her that I didn't believe our financial situation was such that we could afford to keep our current home and commit to a 1 year lease. She looked somewhat dejected, but I think she knew it would be a financial burden. She locked herself in a bathroom, cried for a while, then went to bed. I felt terrible seeing her like this. I desperately want to work things out, but don't want her to feel trapped. I'm guessing this will simply lead to more resentment and will create a greater divide between us.

I called her today to see how she was doing. She seemed slightly better, but said she still feels very alone. I asked her how so. She stated that she was getting no support from anyone, including her parents. I tried to explain to her that her parents don't support her decision, but if she chooses to follow through with it they will be there for her in the end.

Maybe I should feel thankful that she's feeling pressured to work things out. At the same time I wonder if the outside pressure is a good thing or not? If we are ever to work things out it will need to be on our terms. She will never be at peace with us as a couple if she feels like she didn't make the decision on her own.

I guess I'm just happy to be getting through another day...

I think you're doing pretty good.

A coiuple points -

Don't push HNHN on her. Don't mention MB unless she asks. A WS in heat cannot be educated. Don't try.


Don't tell he what you're not gonna do. Tell her that you'd rather spend the time an energy on rebuilding the marriage.

Another good, universal response to almost any statement she makes: "I understand your concern."

Her: Honey, I'm frustrated you won't help with the separation.

You: I understand your concern.

Her: I need space.

You: I understand your concern.

Her: Does this make my butt look big?

You: I understand your concern.

OK, maybe not the last one.

This is straight from the WS script when they realize the BS is making positive changes. This is a universal, predictable statement in response to a good Plan A.

Your reply: "This crisis has been a HUGE wakeup call for me. It took this for me to critically look in the mirror and realize my shortcomings. I'm scared as he11. Time will show that I've heard you loud and clear. Please help me realize other things I need to change."

Don't say the last part! Allow her to worry. "I understand your concern."

WAT

Welcome to MB,


I'm betting she had her cell phone with her or possible a "secret" cell phone you don't know about. She either discussed things with OM by phone or by text messages. Very typical WW behavior.

Have you done any snooping to determine the extent of her current relationship with OM?

As you have told your wife about Marriage Builders I would feel safer for YOU if we discussed this and a few other things by email. I am an attorney (albeit a tax law in Michigan) and can offer you a lot of information if you write me by private email. If your wife knows your email password, change it or set up a new on-line Yahoo account where you can correspond with me or others here in secret (plus you maintain your privacy further).

My email address is below.

You will make it...with or without your wife YOU WILL MAKE IT.

Mr. Wondering

Finally received a copy of SAA yesterday. Wow! It's amazing how closely it mirrors my life...

WW wife came home from work a couple hours late two nights ago. It was late so I decided not to confront her then. Yesterday a.m. I asked her if we could talk for a few minutes. I asked her if she was going to continue to deny that anything was going on between her and OM. She admitted that she had seen him, but still contends it's only because he's part of her support system right now. I tried to explain to her that if she truly wants a divorce and wants it to be amicable then she would need to treat me with a little more respect while we're still married. We talked a bit more about past problems with our relationship. She was crying at the end and gave me a big hug - the first in a few days. She was friendly, even outgoing for the rest of the day, but started to withdraw during the evening.

At this point I think she's getting the fact that I understand my past behavioral issues and that I truly wish to improve upon them. Unfortunately she still appears to be unwavering in her desire to split up. She continues to say that she doesn't want to go back to the way life was (I don't either) and that she has no energy to put into our relationship.

I will continue with Plan A for now, but fear that Plan B is inevitable. It is becoming very clear how addictive an A is. She mentioned that she and OM had discussed the fact that if they really wanted to end their marriages that they should be doing it on their own terms, without each others influence. Yet they clearly have no intent to stop communicating...

WAT, thank you for injecting a little humor in your last post. I forgot how nice it feels to laugh even if only for a few moments.

Did I miss the answer to this - Does OM's wife know all? If yes, how do you know this?

Also, did you order a copy of SAA for your in-laws?

WAT

WAT,

I haven't spoken directly with OM's wife to see if she has any additional information regarding the A. Sometimes I'm not sure that I want any more information than I already have. Right now I feel like I'm just trying to stop the bleeding - to get us to a point where we can actually start addressing M issues together. It's probably not the right attitude, but right now ignorance is bliss...

I haven't sent a copy of SAA to the in-laws yet, but do stay in touch with them to keep them informed of the progress, or lack thereof, that I'm making...

FA

You can't start addressing marriage issues together while she is having an affair.

Your first order of business is to attack the affair and end it if at all possible.
To do that, you need to know the enemy. You need to investigate, snoop and discover the extent of their relationship.
Then you have to expose it to everyone who has influence. Most especially OM's wife. She has the right to know her life is being destroyed.

All the while you are taking those actions, you need to analyze yourself and the state of your marriage. What needs of your wife's are you not meeting well and giving the OM the opportunity to fill? Work on your behavior and changes.

Have a plan.

You say ignorance is bliss. I say ignorance is ignorance.

I think WAT's question was not what the OM's W knows - but are you sure that she does know about A - are you? and how do you know if you haven't talked to her?

If all you know about what the OM's wife knows is through your WW, then you know nothing at all.

Remember, how do you tell if a WS is lying? Their lips are moving!

Trust nothing you hear from your WW. Verify EVERYTHING.

Call the OM's W and spill the beans, and find out everything she knows, and make arrangements to stay in touch until the A is over. It will take both of your efforts to help stop the A.

Believe it!
SD

I will call OM's wife to compare stories, but have no doubt that she knows. Shortly after A was exposed OM's sister in-law left an earful for my wife on our voicemail.

WW told me that one of the reasons they find support in each other is that they both feel like they want to end their marriages, but both feel that they have no family support to do so. I realize that I can't trust everything that my WW says right now, but not sure what else her motivation would have been for making that statement.

Fog babble.

Simply tell her you are not surprised that she's having trouble finding support for tearing 2 families apart as a result of an emotional affair. Support for that SHOULD be hard to find.

That's reverse babble.... learn to use it, but when you say stuff, attach no emotion to it, just state it as a fact, like you'd say, Starbuck's is a great place to get a cup of coffee.

Her motivation is to have the best of both worlds....a financially safe and secure place to stay, and a boyfriend on the side. It only becomes ideal, if you don't question it in any way, and remain silent about it. That is accepted in her foggy brain as "permission" to continue both R's.

Remember, the OM's W is your ally, and you should mention MB to her, and recommend she come her for help in getting through her own sitch.

Expose to her asap!

Best wishes,
SD

Your WW is still reading from the script. I, like so many others, heard the same thing from my WW.



Statements like this are an attempt to justify her affair to herself and others. If she couldn't tell herself things like this, what would that mean? Her brain is trying to protect her from realizing the horrible things that she's done.

It's important to be able to separate your love for you wife from these babbled statements of your WW. I believe the folks around these parts refer to it as "loving detachment"... or something like that.

Take care. Keep reading and keep posting.

Thank you all for insisting that I contact OM's wife. She didn't have many more details than I did other than how long the A has lasted. I was led to believe that it started sometime during summer '05 (D-Day was in October '05). In actuality it started more like 2 years ago. OM insists to his wife that it has only been an EA. Don't worry, I'm getting the picture that it's probably gone a bit further than they're letting on. OM and his wife are definitely divorcing.

Okay, I need to stop and breathe right now. Will post more later when I've had time to collect my thoughts...

That's why you do a HUGE Plan A. If he's getting a D, and you turn on the charm, work like he!! on self-improvement, show your W what a charmer you are (like you were when she first fell in love with you) and he begins to get insistant your W file for D the LoveBusting fest will begin.

That's part of the pressure that makes a "romance" based on fantasy begin to fall apart. All to your advantage, of course.

And, yeah, there's probably a lot more to the A than either you or the OM's W know about. WS are such accomplished liars.

Study Surviving an Affair with a vengence and keep posting...you CAN survive this!

SD

Just checking in with you FA. Hope you are hanging tough. Remember that WS are great liars. What complicates matters is that the lies come from the person you least expect. IMHO, I think you have hope if she has shown at least some interest in reading HNHN. This is what my wife posted last night regarding her WW experience.........

Lost Willow,

Please accept my apology. I was re-reading my thread, when I realized I never did reply to your question. I hope you get this.

My answer to your question (notice I did not say "the" answer to your question!), is a WS does not see the consequences to their actions because they are not yet a FWS. As long as they are a WS, their thoughts are completely irrational. I always think of my thought processes during my A were like being addicted to some illegal substance, let's say crack cocaine (for the record, I have never done any illegal drugs except pot, and that was a very long time ago!). We all know enough about what crack does to people, right? Well, that's how i view my behavior at the time of my A. And to recover through rehab. is nothing short of a nightmare. You literally get sick to your stomach (because you believe you are in love with the OP, but aren't sure you want to destroy your family). You get the shakes. You loose weight and miss work. Your friends notice the dark circles under your eyes because you don't sleep more than 2-3 hours per night. Of course, this is okay with you, because you seriously believe you don't need more than this. You can't wait until you are alone, so you can get your "fix" of the OP before going to work, all throughout the day, into the evening, until you lay there in bed, trying to sleep, but instead thinking of more ways to get your "fix" more often. Then, you entertain thoughts of being with the OP forever. And on and on it goes, until d-day....

Your world comes to an end. Everything you believed to be true, is suddenly in question because your spouse tells you they want to work on your M, despite your A. This is NOT how you rehearsed this!! You were supposed to ride off into the sunset with the OP!! Your spouse starts asking you questions, like, "How could you do this to me? To our children? Don't we mean anything to you? What about the life we've built together, doesn't that mean anything? I love you KJ, always have, and alway will. I want to make it through this, I know we can do it, we have so much to be thankful for!"

DAMN! DAMN HIM/HER ALL TO HE-DOUBLE TOOTHPICKS!! THIS IS NOT THE WAY THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOING!!

The "fog" settles in. Your thoughts of the OP are still so favorable (sick, i know, but bear with me here). This goes on for several weeks (my story only here). Then, in a matter of seconds, BOOM!! You have a rational thought, several actually. You f'd up idiot, you just about threw away everything that means anything to you in this entire world. For what? For who? You barely knew this OP! Four months together, and you're telling this OP you LOVE them? What the #@!* were you thinking?! The OP has never even MET your kids, much less showed the intense love and committment to them like your spouse has! LOVE? What the !@#* do you know about love?! You just broke every promise you ever made to your spouse and your children. That you'd always be there for them, always love and cherish them.

You are the scum of this earth, no better. You go into a deep depression every time you think about what you have done. Every time you see the hurt and anger in your spouse's eyes. It hurts when you breathe in, and when you breathe out.

You have just become a FWS. Remorse and thoughts about the "consequences of your actions" becomes a constant in your life. Is this a bad thing? No, because compared to the pain you have caused your spouse, your little guilt trips are nothing. Nothing.

Hang in there Willow, it'll all come down, there will be remorse and consequences, as the Lord sees fit.

God bless,

KJ

....Hopefully your wife gets to this point some time. IMHO, she's in deep but there is hope. We're still here for you buddy.

HS

Thanks for encouragement HS.

I feel very exhausted right now. WW is very exhausted right now. I sometimes understand when she says she has no energy left to put into our marriage. Don't get me wrong, I still very much would like to work things out with her, but feel like my refusal to agree to a separation is continuing to help build her resentment towards me.

I do believe she is starting to feel a little pressure from the OM. She has always said that she would want to use mediation for the divorce process. But, a couple times in the last week said she might be forced to find a lawyer. She said "people" have told her she should just get a lawyer and get it over with.

After speaking with OM's wife I've been able to put together a little better timeline of what's taken place and I'm very concerned with how gradually it's taken their R to develop. We've all been friends for about 8 years. OM's wife believes it became innapropriate about 2 years ago. Interestingly enough we had our third child and they had their first during that period. I think WW and OM thought the A was something that would just pass. It hasn't and now I think they really believe they will live happily ever after. Another interesting observation that both I and the OM's W had were that our spouses both believe their relationships with us will remain on very friendly terms after divorces. OM's W said OM told her they could still attend family events together for the sake of their child. Maybe we could get a duplex and be one big happy family...

I continue with Plan A to the best of my abilities, but feel as though I'm only depositing fractional LU's. I'm planning on speaking to an attorney next week to see what options I have should I need to resort to Plan B. I pray every night that it won't get that far, but definitely feeling a little less hopeful at the moment.

FA

Talk about irrational WS chatter. Yikes! They want the best of both worlds. There is a reason most A's end. They are built around a fantasy, not reality. Once reality sets in the fantasy is squashed and the A ends. I don't see how reality doesn't set in sooner when people realize the pain that their children will have to endure.

I appreciate the "tired" statement. Can't sleep, can't eat, can't concentrate. When people would talk to me at work they sounded like the Charlie Brown teacher. Most went right past me.

Have you thought any more about contacting Steve Harley? It might be the best $180 you ever spent.

Not to hijack your thread here, but I had a question.

You said that the WW gets upset that her husband she no longer wants is still fighting for a marriage she wants no part of. Well, I definitely have that going. She doesn't want any contact from me, she thinks I'm creepy for having spied on her as we were splitting up, she's attributing me doing new things to spy on her that I haven't actually done, and she doesn't want me calling her because it creates awkward situations that she has to explain to her new guy.

What if your WW doesn't feel like she's having an A? Mine feels no remorse because she's told me time and time again that it's over, she doesn't want me and there's no reason for her to give up this OM that makes her so incredibly happy. What do you do if your wife never has that moment? What if the OM is actually good for her? The OM in my case seems to be an extremely good "fit" for her... he's actually a decent guy from what I've gathered. She says that he's everything she always felt like she needed to change about me.

Is there anything that can be done if they just continue on in their happiness with this new guy? She says she's been seeing him a couple of weeks every single day, every minute together they can and that they feel like they've been together for months. I feel like I'm the "lucky" case where she immediately stumbled into a guy she has a future with.

Yes, I plan to contact SH sooner rather than later.

WW just called. Asked how my conversation with OM's wife was. I should have asked the OM's W to keep quiet.

WW seems to be reaching a boiling point. She feels like she's in high school and being watched over by her father. She's tired of everyone feeling sorry for me. I believe "f*%^ing poor you" was the actual term. Not a good way to start the weekend...