I almost included this but I backed it out...so I'm going with it...

I'm their employer. My life is really about life...I've been betrayed in my own life. I know we're all here, humans, working with and for humans...there's nothing here on earth that isn't really about humans...corporations aren't real (they're humans)...so I know that when my employees come through the door every morning, they are bringing all of themselves...there is no personal/professional halves...I am paying a fully human person. I do not want their family life to destroy what I've built, anymore than I want their job to destroy their family life.

I don't want to contribute through environment...and I believe if you will talk yourself into an A at work, you can as easily talk yourself into cheating on work. People choose, I don't. I choose my own boundaries, which is my company, and As aren't good for anyone.

I need the information, the truth, so that I can enforce my boundaries...may be firing them, writing them up, separating them or transferring them. My choice. My company. Truth matters. I may choose to ignore, reprimand or support...my choices.

If I don't have the truth, someone who does is limiting my choice...conspiring against me and my power. I am being robbed of my choices.

If jobs were really working for machines or aliens, this wouldn't matter. Jobs aren't. Humans by and for humans. It's what we do on our journeys...realistically.

"I'm afraid already that 100% NC is not going to happen. WW was offered a leave-of-absence when she resigned and because she loves her job it's what she wants to do." Wait, what? It's her pressurized, draining, stealing her soul job...or it's a job she loves?

See, waywards do not have the same perceptions...I know from both sides...when my WH was in his A with his coworker, he suddenly looked upon the company as the enemy, the ones who were messed up, because his OW thought that...where before, he had a balanced perspective...things he appreciated and applauded, and things he struggled with. Hmmm...like his marriage? We create our own resentment...for a purpose...a payoff...and when we have that permission in ourselves to do that...we don't just do it with our spouses'...we will do it with everyone...including work. Children. FOO. Friends. Politicians....everyone.

MDC, you are wrestling schemes, not concepts. Stick to concepts. Choose to believe this is up to her...her choices to create no contact and stick to it. Big picture...if anyone comes between you and your spouse...be it a job, a person, even a child...then you no longer have two people in a marriage, do you?

As long as you stay in the mindset that you can give a vacation to your WW, allow, keep, make...you're going to be on that rollercoaster, white knuckled.

Please choose differently.

What is your truth...not your wishful child? We all do this...wish it were different, that we had more power, or less...so no attack...getting to your truth is the top priority of Plan A. You can't reason away an A anymore than WS can explain them away. Why? Because we're human and what happens actually happens. All choice. No wishes granted.

Put your hope where it belongs...all on YOU. Not her. Not OM. Know that OM is identical to your WW...he's a symbol right now, not a person. They are living fantasies, not real. Because they are living a fantasy...no reality based. No respect, love, trust or human qualities. They are not who they seem to be and cannot be judged human right now. They are escaping their own stuff...and that can't really be done, can it?

The more you buy into you fixing this, the more you will set yourself up. Fixing just might be something you want to look at. Humans are beings, not fixers. They do not earn love...they ARE love.

Truth matters. Tell us your truth. The details will hide truth.

LA

TSTS...thank you for sharing that with me.

LA

LA your posts are beautiful. Don't stop. Again I will digest and respond.

But so much has happened today I'm having trouble slowing down to be introspective.

Let me just say now that contacting the OP is a BAD idea.

WW and I had a minor reconciliation today. She told me tearfully that she was sorry - first time ever - and that I was doing everything right and that she was done with OM. There were some beautiful moments. Which I stepped on by reverting slightly to needy and pushy BS. No damange done I just could have walked away showing her the love, caring and understanding I have for her - mission accomplished - and at the same time stayed centered, grounded and respectful of myself. Not sure that makes any sense or not.

So let me say from recent experience that contacting OP is NOT a good idea. At least I don't think it is... WW was getting hounded by OM on her work Instant Messaging system today - working from home - and via email. Finally showed her how to block someone. But she asked me if I would send an email to him asking him to stop contacting her.

Well I had this email already written so I sent it after showing her. It was a respectful email asking him to stop all contact with WW. I appealed to the cause of our children who have a chance at living in an unbroken, happy home if he's removed from the scene.

BAD IDEA. I got a very strongly worded, nasty email back - what did I expect??? I didn't need to see this email. OM is now talking to soon to be XW about my conversation with XW which I did not tell WW about. So he's telling her that I'm spinning my conversatin with XW. And it's getting into a big he-said, she-said. Ridiculous. He's claiming I threatened to shoot him!!!

I did discuss with XW the possibility of exposing OM and WW at work. That much is true. And has now gotten back to WW. I see where I messed this up. I would rather have had this exposure happen earlier than now when it's disrupting the NC. I also see how important RADICAL HONESTY is now. Because it's coming back to bite me. I need to tell WW that my parents, her mother and my oldest brother and his W know.

Anyway I feel just like I did on D-Day. Flushed and angry and scared and everything. I could have remained above the fray had I not contacted OM. BAD idea.

Should I tell her tonight about the people I exposed to? She thinks the OM is a nut case and we're both united against him right now. I think it was JL that said he would love-bust all over the place. Well he is.

My truth about the people I exposed to is this - I exposed to her mother in part because I wanted her support and wanted more than anything to save our marriage. LA has also shown me that I exposed to manipulate - I wanted her mother to help me 'fix' the WW. I also wanted to pre-wire her mother 'in case' I needed to fully expose. I was getting her ready.

Same with my sister-in-law. WW respects sister-in-law and I told her because I thought she might be able to help. So what is my truth in these exposures? Manipulation I guess, right?? What is the truth in a clean exposure?? Please someone help guide me to the truth so I can share it with WW!!

My parents are easy - I exposed to them for support. I had no intention of asking them to contact WW. I also exposed to a long-ago GF for support VERY early in the affair. Only talked to her 3 times. Only very early on.

Also told another brother about the A very early on but have not spoken with him since then because he's the "divorce and take the kids" type.

God bless the MB board and everyone on it. I don't know where I'd be without the gift of kindess and love that's offered here!

MDC,

I don't know if I've got it down or not, but I think the difference between exposing to manipulate and exposing as a good thing is that sometimes the WW might justify something to herself if only you knew, but would come to her senses if she realized her parents were filled in on it. I imagine it is something that is used later into having found out about the affair, as opposed to immediately...

I think I would have literally died if my parents knew, or if my BSs parents knew. If he had told them, which he didn't need to because I came around before it was necessary, in my mind, I know that I would have honored my parents wisdom. It is like the fantasy bubble is popped, when the greater world is invited into it. The family for the WW is that greater world in this instance. The WW can't pursue the fantasy of an alternate life with the OM as easily, if she knows she will ruin her family connections to be with him. The WW starts to realize that there are consequences to be dealt with, such as loss of character.... she starts to realize that pursuing the OM will have negative effects on her life.... WWs deny to themselves that there'll be consequences, and eventually, you can't cover it up any more for her... you can't lie and pretend everything is ok... To do so would be "codepedent", or you unfairly baring the consequences for her. You should have the support of people who love and care for you at a time like this... you shouldn't be trapped in isolation, and if it were the opposite and you were the WS, she would think the same thing....

I think exposing to manipulate is more aimed to humiliate, or to chide the WW, instead of to solicit the parents' support of the marriage. This would be exposure fueled by the desire to punish...

That helps toosad. thanks

toosad,

Funny, I just read one of your recent posts on "love addicts", and thought the same about you! I'm gonna get that book, sounds perfect for me.

Thanks for the compliment, but believe me, I am far from having this thing figured out!! Working on it though, just like you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Has your H read HN's/HN's yet? Have you both done the EN questionnaire? I think after my H did these two things, is when he kicked in on meeting my EN's. It is SO important to discuss the results of the questionnaire together after you've both completed it. My H and I have actually re-done the questionnaire 3 times because after reading HN's/HN's, our perspectives changed. Then, after receiving help from SH, we got even more insight about what each EN entails, so we did it again. We are both really confident now about the ranking of our EN's.

What about you? Are you working dilligently at meeting his EN's? You may need to be the one to direct this recovery, someone has to take the lead, doesn't matter which one of you, but if he's having difficulty even speaking to you, I'd recommend that person be you. You may not see a positive change for some time, so prepare to be patient.

You created more than turmoil my dear. You have destroyed everything your H thought to be true and pure. He's suffering more right now than he ever has, or ever will again. So yes, you have to be patient, and humble, and sorry, and repentant (sp?). As do I and all other FWS's.

All my best,

KJ

toosad,

I replied to your post, but afterward thought, you are right, you should start a new thread. Read my post, but then I'd encourage you to begin your own. Thanks!

KJ

MDC,

Exposure is what it is...looks the same from the outside...it is your intent, which you know yourself, that matters on the inside.

You define it and know it. Same with saying yes to her request for you to email him instead of her...doing the same thing...showing you the email and sending it herself. Then blocking all email and IMs and changing her phone numbers to stop any reply.

Replies are unnecessary. They are not to be read or acknowledged....when you got his reply...why read it? Why not delete it? His truth is not at stake here...yours is and your WW's is...each to his part...blocking communication. What you do for your wife is overdo...watch this...learn from this...you're willing to not respect when you see it as saving, doing, fixing, completing...being safe.

As long as you know, and you're aware you choose from this intent...and why...I'll respect your choices.

Intent is about you for you...as to should you tell your WW who you exposed to? What is your intent? Your fear? Your concern?

"But so much has happened today I'm having trouble slowing down to be introspective." Funny thing about introspection...goes on all the time, whether we are conscious of it or not...how it really is all about me...by design.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are coming at life with your chosen perspective of damage control, careful actions to get best results; then your life will seem fast-paced, a hair's breadth from out of control...and your choices are made like lightning...full of fast appraisals with a mindset of strategy...what do I do next...how do I respond...what's right...what's wrong...how do I fix this...then you are living a manipulative, response-based life.

When you breathe, observe, respect and stay present...life slows down...choices stand up and stretch...emotions yawn and sigh...introspection can be heard...and life can be lived...

Priorities.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are doing the best you can with what you know now, MDC...remind yourself of that. Center on yourself...know your WW is fully capable of no contact, composing and sending, blocking, protecting...and can take the consequences of her own actions...because she truly is human...equal to everyone. She is. Respect her. Separate and equal.

LA

LA - once again you've nailed me. I DO know what it is to stand relaxed and full of love at the center of the storm. I'm looking at all of this as an oppotunity to practice living the way I want to live. I'm hoping that more practice will make me better at it because right now I'm letting myself get sucked into the storm more that I would like. That has been my life, really, so it's a BIG change.

Any reading on this that would help, please let me know.

As far as intent for telling my W about who I exposed the affair to - my intent is to live in the same radical honesty that I want from her. To live in purity and harmony. It feels like manipulation if I don't tell her. Not sure on this one...

LA - you would be proud. Received another email from OM. Read the frist two lines, stopped and deleted it. I will not participate in his reality. I was wobbly for a few hours but I eventually moved back to my center.

So I'm getting part of what I want from WW in this - an apology, a commitment to work on the M, no contact with OM, showing me love and respect. It just feels like I'm giving up more than I should. I gave into her plan for returning to work - afer a month LOA - too quickly. Instead of saying - "I'd like to talk about this." I said "We'll find a way to work it out. Build a plan with professional help. Your resgnation todayy meant a lot to me." (She put in her resignation not expecting to be offered the opportunity to leave and come back.)

It feels to me like once again there are very few consequences for her. In fact, if I was her I would think that the A was a great idea! She met someone new that validated her as a woman and she got her H to completely change himself. I don't want her "punished" per se but... Not sure exactly what I'm saying here...

I'm sure she doesn't fully see or understand the work that lies ahead of us that's needed to properly rebuild the marriage. She's going to be at her monther's for a month. I told her that we should plan on working on the M via phone. Set aside maybe 60 minutes 2x a week to discuss. I offered that as a boundry so we don't go overboard on the R talk. She said she just wanted to let those conversations "happen". Ugh.

I've backed off her considerably since our big day Tuesday - when we started working TOGETHER against OM and she said she was sorry. Her last day at work before the LOA is today so she's been working a LOT to get ready to go. My plan now is to for us to talk to SH next week - I've talked to him once by myself - and have SH give us a plan to follow.

Does that sound OK?? Should I be pushing or patient?? I feel like I can be patient but I don't want patience to turn into lazy. I want to stand strong and ensure that my taker is getting what it needs. I'm not in touch enough with my taker to REALLY know what is OK for me and what is not OK. I suppose that is co-dependence? Anyone know? I guess that's why I'm going to rely on SH for help.

I'm still not sure if I should tell her that I told her mother, my parents, my borther and SIL. Do I need to tell her that? Again my intent would be honesty.

I AM proud of you, MDC...and I know you are proud of yourself...that's is not an easy thing to do at all. Very brave. Very self-loving.

Kudos, congrats and a heckuva way-to-go!

"It just feels like I'm giving up more than I should."

Let's look at this. I see it again in "It feels to me like once again there are very few consequences for her."

Do you want punishment? Do you want her to feel your pain...walk in your shoes...awaken to her actions through your feelings?

Of course, I want you to be honest...and I believe you truly are...give this a shot for me, 'k?

"In fact, if I was her I would think that the A was a great idea!" How about you wanting her to be you? Do you evaluate others through your eyes, comparing to what you would feel, think or do?

"I'm sure she doesn't fully see or understand the work that lies ahead of us that's needed to properly rebuild the marriage." Can you see the DJ in this?

Compromise on the working on M by phone...how about that same time allotment, different content. Communication exercise...twice a week?

This would be one of you (her first, I think), speak for 20 minutes...and you, the listener, say nothing...you listen to remember and repeat...and this isn't easy, MDC...takes some focus and practice. After 20 minutes, you summarize what you heard...try to reiterate, not interpret; and for the last 5 minutes, she clarifies or confirms...

Then you wait at least 24 hours to say anything about what was said (you, the listener)...then another 24 hours before you do the exercise again, switching speaker and listener roles.

That leaves another 30 minutes to just chit chat, inform, catch up...

Gotta have that hopper on your head and work on memorizing, not analyzing her words and thoughts, 'k? Really safe.

"I feel like I can be patient but I don't want patience to turn into lazy." Wow, work on those DJs, 'k? That one hurt yourself...and DJs go both ways. Lazy is one of the most prevalent fears in American's I've witnessed...and I haven't met a lazy person yet. Don't know what they look like, to tell the truth. Yet the fear is huge.

Self-focus doesn't take patience...it takes practice.

We don't pressure or press in marriage, we negotiate and share.

Respect and don't repeat. She remember's Big Tuesday...she knows what you expressed. Honor that and respect she knows.

Since she's going to her mother's...she might find out. That's okay, I think. SH will know better. I have a gut feeling that you don't need to tell her anything. I really can't tell you...Are you fearing her finding out and accusing you of being dishonest...lying by omission? WS's do that...projection.

What do you have planned for this month apart? For you? Which books, what routines...how are you gonna show yourself some solid self-care?

LA

LA-

I don't want punishment. I don't even want her to feel my pain. But I do want her to awaken to her actions and come to fully KNOW what she did. It's important for me to know that she knows. I know it's not healthy but I feel out of balance. Like I'm shouldering the weight of this A for our marriage. I want her to take it off me and carry some herself.

Right now I'm hurt. She talked to him again last night. He called her while she was driving home. She ended it with him. Again. She told me not to worry because she was very FINAL. I can't stop the thoughts - OM wants MY life. Wants to raise MY children. Live with MY wife. And she was going to give it to him! Actually I don't know that for sure but she lead him to believe she was going to give it to him. And felt that MY behaviour towards her was SO bad that this horror was justified!!!

When I'm not frustrated about the A I'm frustrated about us. The same frustration that brought us into this mess in the first place. Last night she said that "We suck. We're not good together. We can't get our s*** together. We're never on the same page." Kept saying that she was not direciting it at me. That she had no problem with me. Went out of her way to avoid a direct LB to me. She would say these things pre-A as well.

Like always I told her that nothing is permanent. That with counseling we can restore balance to the marriage and learn how to work together. In my opinion we've never really TRIED. We don't even have a system for division of chores so both of us are assuming and expecting the other to do more. How unhealthy and damaging is that??

So I say we CAN make changes. She just says - "yeah we've been saying that for 5 years". So it makes me angry. And sad. That WW is not reaching for a vision in this M. That she's rarely had a strong or exciting vision of our lives together. Our family together. She said that she's tired of everything being so hard. Swimming up-stream. She doesn't understand why it has to be so hard. She used to say this pre-A as well. It feels to me live I've been supplying the vision and the hope to this M for it's entire duration. I can't help it, it just WEARS ME OUT.

Yes I evaluate others through my eyes. Comparing to what I would feel, think and do. That's been my whole problem in this marriage - I wanted my wife to be me! I did not accept her for who she was. Who she is. I wanted to fix her. Wanted her to be things that she is not. I still want it. It's Saturday morning at 10:40 and she's still sleeping. Sick. She's nearly always sick. Always something. Teeth, sinuses, migrane, cramps, depressed, just plain tired. She so often just does not participate in LIFE. And I hate it.

I am aware that I would do this to anybody that I was married to. I've done it in past realtionships - idealize and idolize in the beginning of the R and then resent and destroy. I don't know how to fix it.

All seems so overwhelming. I need help. She needs help. The M needs help. I am willing to do the work. And learn. And grow. I really am. And I want WW to be there with me - us helping each other. My fear is that she won't come along. She's always been resistant to R work. Always. Even now she says she want's a "break" from the relationship - doesn't want to talk about it. Just wants to "be". OK. I can do that. But based on history, she won't be any more ready to work a week or 2 weeks or 2 months from now that she is today. I know that's a DJ. But it's been that way in the past. She is a sweeper. Just wants to put the garbage out and forget about it. THIS too wears me out, makes me sad and frustrated.

Thanks for pointing out how I DJ myself. You are doing a great job showing me how important it is to respect, be kind to, love and forgive myself. This is something I do not do well.

You are also helping me respect her - respect that she knows. Respect that she can protect herself from the OM. Respect that she wants the M more than I can see right now. That's faith. And trust. Words I'm not very good with. Getting better tho!

I'll let whatever happens happen at her mother's. Her M is going to get to the A one way or another. I think it's an LB either way. Her M and I discussed and her M thinks it would be better for WW to tell her about the A. MIL can draw it out. May feel better for WW to share it rather than have to defend it.

So other than loving my WW and myself, what actions do I take? I'm getting hammered on the board to insist on the NC letter. Insist that she not go back to her job. I know these things need to happen. But like you said, we don't pressure or press in a marriage we negotiate and share. So I feel like NC and quiting are on the "to-do" checklist for a healthy recovery. But that pressing them right now is not right. I figured I'd wait and let SH do the work for me. Break the news.

What do I do now LA??

BTW - I've got some M books in my Amazon que to order - any recommendations from you? I'll exercise and live quietly. I will give myself a break from all of this by doing some of the things I tell myself I avoid due to the 'noise' of daily life, our kids & the M.

Thank you so much LA for your love, care and concern.

This situation sums our M.

WW rented a movie for our young 4-year old girl. King Kong. I STRONGLY feel that this is not an appropriate movie for a 4 year old. DD is in the other room right now SCREAMING with fright over the move. If I said something to WW about it, WW would tell me it's not a big deal, just a movie, I'm so uptight, etc, etc.

I've wanted more discipline for our DD. WW has not. WW would get tired and give in to whining. Now DD has trouble following directions. She's manipulative. There have not been many consequences for her. Every time I would try to communicate with WW about this we'd fight. I know that my approach was wrong using words like - "you should, we should, we're not" etc. Result was that I'd let my WW have her way because she could always fight better than me. As a result I have had little to NO input in the way our daughter is being raised. DD is WAY more my wife's child than mine.

Take this situation where I do not agree with something WW is doing/has done and muliply it by about 10,000. That has been our marriage.

One of my W's complaints pre-A was that she felt like I didn't like her. She's right there were plenty of times where I DID'T like her. DIDN'T respect her. This is one of those times.

"It's important for me to know that she knows." Why?

Back to punishment...get really honest...if you only learn your lessons for yourself through pain...would wanting WW to know pain, so she can learn, be unhealthy? Awful? It is what it is...what is important here is how you view yourself and maybe find out that you connect to others only through your own experience.

And yes, there's another way. Not much publicized. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

"I know it's not healthy but I feel out of balance. Like I'm shouldering the weight of this A for our marriage. I want her to take it off me and carry some herself." You feel out of balance because you were living through another person (IMO), and like a rug jerked out from under...now you are living entirely in your self...which is great...only it feels scary, off balance, and much like falling...could your imagined parachute be her awareness? And letting you back into her, where you've lived for awhile and know the terrain better than yourself?

Just to consider. I'm leaning on intuition here, not facts.

You have a mindset to believe her absolutely...and it isn't unreasonable, given that you've had her defining you, and you living through her...your belief is automatic. What you're feeling most is self-betrayal because you have been living in just this way.

Whoa. Really.

"She ended it with him. Again. She told me not to worry because she was very FINAL." Look carefully, MDC. She didn't end it again. She took the call. Didn't block the number. She can end it again with him, over and over...without ever having to end it. Then she DEFINES you...tells you not to worry...which is your choice, within you, and she is DJing to say so. You can choose to worry even if NC stands for thirty years...your choice. Not hers. And you can choose not to believe her...by knowing what she did in taking that call was to not end it...no final. You can do this without disrespecting her...what she believes is hers...and yours is yours.

You can do this.

"And felt that MY behaviour towards her was SO bad that this horror was justified!!!" Here is where you're self-betraying again...and DJing her...you're taking what is hers, her belief, and thinking they might be your own. KNOW your own. You cannot make a person have an A...they choose. They choose to answer a call after stating NC...they choose to talk instead of saying "No contact" and hanging up...And if you're looking for us to say exactly what I said, then you're still self-betraying...because you haven't replaced the belief that you are the cause, control and cure of others.

So you remain abusive.

To others and yourself.

Please look at this...find out how it feeds you...feeds your emotions and your choices...I wanted blame for everything...felt like power...if I could be at fault, I could fix. This cycle was wholly destructive and a fantasy...a disrespectful one. I fed myself for decades this way.

See why you are feeling like you're shouldering the A? Isn't her..it is you. That's good. You CAN control you! You are the cause, control and cure for YOU.

"We suck. We're not good together. We can't get our s*** together. We're never on the same page." Again, see the abuse as it is...she is defining you, as enmeshed in you as you are in her, and there is no respect. You don't suck and you know it. If you don't say, "We are two separate people, WW. I don't believe I suck. I do believe we are as good together as any two humans are the planet. We're equal. I am finding myself, my part, my self where I didn't before. I am not sure if I want to be on the same page with you, but I know I love reading the same book with you."

Change the we's into I's...respectfully, firmly.

"Went out of her way to avoid a direct LB to me." Until she uses "I feel" and "I believe" statements, she IS LBing you directly.

Your WW has a history of lying to herself...we all do until we stop self-betraying..."She would say these things pre-A as well." To hear her lies to herself out loud can feel like pain in you...but you aren't experiencing her lies, you are re-experiencing all the ones to yourself for years. Your pain. Separate. Equal. Cover up, don't look like you're attacking when you are. Manipulate our truth to get the response we want...not to tend to our truth.

"So I say we CAN make changes." Reading down to this, I saw your perspective as "we" over and over again. You abuse right back. You can't speak for another person. You are only you. "I know I am changing. I believe being married to you is the most important way to live my life." Own your life, MDC...not someone else's.

This is what would be different than the last five years of attempts. Ownership. For what really is yours, and hers for her. Human limits acknowledged and respected...two whole individuals becoming one...not two halves hoping to be whole, dependent from fear. This is the dynamic you are really getting...the one that when unknown before, undermined all changes...changing for the marriage, instead of changing your beliefs for you.

"So it makes me angry. And sad." Replacing "her" with "it" doesn't change this is you being angry and sad. Coming from the inside. You are angry (fear or pain first?) with yourself...not her. She has been your outside place (and half inside one, since you lived in her eyes) to be angry...outwardly. Sad by force. You are feeling loss, which is sad...and can be grieved when owned. So can anger...because you have the belief that until she gets fully on board, your life is in peril. And it isn't.

"I've been supplying the vision and the hope to this M for it's entire duration. I can't help it, it just WEARS ME OUT." So stop. Supply your own for you. You have no right and no power to make your WW see anything, believe anything...feel anything. Her choices. Her own power. Her own vision. You hurt from fear of her lack of belief in the marriage...you fear her being worn out...because you're in her and if she leaves, half of you is gone...BIG grieving there, huh? Losing half of you? Pull yourself respectfully back to where you have always been...in you. Not as scary as you have imagined...validate your belief for all you've learned at MB and elsewhere (God doesn't use only one message delivery system)...and KNOW this time, you are really changing your beliefs, not just earning love in a better way.

"I am aware that I would do this to anybody that I was married to. I've done it in past realtionships - idealize and idolize in the beginning of the R and then resent and destroy. I don't know how to fix it." WOW. WOW. This is ownership...and well-written ownership. I wanna write like you!

You don't need to be fixed on this...you need to embrace it...look up my Owning all your Villagers thread that others are doing...resent and destroy is about protection...find out from what...

You aren't a monster. You won't find, when you dig into your self, anything that isn't complete, whole and marvelously made, I promise. I bet my life on it...like Jesus did. Believe this.

You don't need to be fixed...you desire to be known.

And when we do this...idealize and idolize...it feels like controlling what we can't...making others into something we can handle...until their humanness shows through...and controlling comes from fear.

Your judgment is rampant, MDC. See it for what it is...her always sick, something wrong, dropping out of life...look at this and see where you might be doing this inside of you...and why it feels like rejection (you're her life) when she does this.

Not about changing her, but accepting you.

Give yourself permission to speak truth: "I am willing to do the work. And learn. And grow. I really am." You ARE doing work on you. You ARE learning and growing. No willing to, trying, shoulding or want to's...you ARE. And there's reward for it, already, in you. Find it. Feel it. Know it.

Much better payoffs than resentment and destroying.

"And I want WW to be there with me - us helping each other." Change this desire...until you are whole and complete, knowing you choose to be half of a marriage, then you can't help each other, can you? Until you choose from your code of O&H, to be O&H, you cannot help her be O&H. Only way to truly help is to example...and it remains, correctly, her choice...and it has been her choice all along. Part of the human design. Know this, MDC. Stop choosing your actions and words based on the response you want...choose them based on your standards and boundaries.

Humans have many fears..."My fear is that she won't come along." Find the fear below this fear...

Are you changing your beliefs for you or for the marriage?

Is she and the marriage worth more work than you are?

"Who she is. I wanted to fix her. Wanted her to be things that she is not. I still want it." Would you consider that your fear wanted to fix her to protect you? Would you consider that love can be more expansive, amazing and deeper than you think you can withstand when you accept all of her, and stop DJing yourself to do so?

That by really choosing NOT to still want to...you could be who you really are, to everyone...and they could be themselves, whole and accepted? Is that too frightening for you?

"I'll let whatever happens happen at her mother's." This is a comfort lie to yourself I'd like you to see. You have no control over what happens outside of yourself. Please be aware of these phrases and their intent to comfort you by distoring reality.

I want you to also consider redefining Love Busters...LBs...you have the perspective that what drains a love bank is a love buster...and because you choose your actions from response, you see LBs as getting the way of your marriage.

First, take LBs for what you do to you...the parts you've had permission for doing all your life. Know them in the perspective of your choices and permissions for those choices. Not what will make anyone angry, sad, fearful...that's where you're disrespecting others. You still hold the belief that you are powerful and can make...when really, they feel. Their love bank is their own. For now, know what is important is your limitations as a human being, see where you never had that power, even when others told you that you did...concentrate on that...because that's our human reality. We all share it. Your WW can feel pain, anger, frustration...and it still is hers, about hers...reasonable or not...you're not doing it. Respect that more. All this came out of me from your "I think it's an LB either way." about her mother.

Books...John Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame That Binds Us"; "Homecoming: Healing Your Wounded Inner Child"..."The Five Love Languages" Gary Chapman; "Between Parent and Child" (I know this one is odd, but trust me, 'k?); "Boundaries in Marriage" Cloud & Townsend; "Facing Love Addiction" "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" Patricia Evans; "Fighting for Your Marriage" Markman, Bloomberg and Peck..."Dance of Anger"

These were the ones I read...and from them, got what I needed...found acceptance for myself in reading them...they held my hand while I probed each infected tooth, faced fears and learned about respect. Collect what you can from them...only sharing my experience. I don't believe in any one book...all of them were written to share, to connect and to help. All were journeys for each writer, their passion and risk...I honor all of them.

Remembering MDC...you are a human being...not a human doing. Practice that being more...breathing, self-hugs and strokes, admiration, appreciation and acceptance...doesn't feel like the doing you're used to...but we want different results, right? Used to wasn't working for you, right?

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(((((MDC)))))

LA

Thank you as always LA. Much to digest there.

No, "used to" wasn't working. I don't want "used to" anymore.

I posted this on CL's thread. I feel like it's important for ME to say something about NC and how I thought she agreed to it but taking a call from OM yesterday is NOT NC and I need for you to quit your job to feel safe, etc, etc. I don't know how to have that coversation. I really don't. Can you help? I asked for help from the board too but really didn't get anything back that I could use. Am I missing something???

Do I have patience with myself and continue to read and think and grow and wait until I'm in a place - like I was Tuesday - when I feel like I've got the strength and center to share my feelings? I feel like I'm disrespecting myself by not addressing...

When she told you about her final call...making NC final...there was your opportunity, at hand, to share.

Find out where your voice goes, 'k?

Now, in your next communication, you can say what you didn't before...

"Each call is contact. Each contact means the affair continues. Not taking the call means enforcing no contact."

Respect she knows that work contact is contact. Her saying it isn't doesn't mean she believes it or that you will. Still part of the WS fog.

Then listen and repeat.

I don't believe it is about you feeling strong enough...until you give yourself permission to be O&H to yourself (respect) and to her (respect), then you'll swallow your tongue for that fear of from being response-based in your choices.

You can do this. Lovingly, firmly and without the goal of changing her, forcing her hand, making her comply...all those trigger words which revoke your permission to be O&H.

In your corner,

LA

Wow. I see it now. Thank you.

Been thinking more about "enmeshed". About each of us becoming a separate whole. When we met and got M'd each of us was not whole. We united to create whole, single person. Easy to see now how 2 halfs of separate people cannot maintain a single, healthy whole. Too much shifing, movement on each S's part to keep it together. This is what happened to us! The person we created broke apart!

If I can maintain this thought of being whole and separate, while at the same time together in my M then I'm good!

I defined myself by my M, especially when I became a father - which happened 9 mos after wedding day (honeymoon baby). I've never considered leaving the M because I'm so rooted in my family, it's so much a part of who I am, that I'd be ripping out a piece of me to leave. This is why I've been SO fearful of a break-up. Got to love the fear and trust.

Oh, you have a wedding night baby, too! My youngest was from wedding night...

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Great realizations on the halves and wholes of it, huh?

The picture I kept in my mind was two circles...whole circles, one on each side and slightly over lapping a larger third circle in the middle...

That's me...whole, part of the marriage...other side is H, whole, part of the marriage...and the marriage is that big circle in the middle...and we are technically one through this circle...without enmeshment...wholly (can't help but pun) connected.

I did the same thing with taking on my role as mother as being myself...I had to look at defining myself by my actions, my responsibilities, and why I was desperate to do that...

Can you see why now you feel such desperation...like her pulling away from you is breaking you apart? Where maybe divorce and leaving aren't but a symbol of something you're doing...a healthy doing...within the marriage?

What does your perspective look like now?

LA

Quick question - what do I do with all the GARBAGE. Like that King Kong post above. I just wrote a long letter to someone who's helping me out through this and it became something I shouldn't send.

Should I post rants here? It feels good to get some of these things out that I'm thinking and feeling. But I don't know what to do with them. It feels like if I write them and let them sit in a folder on my hard drive then I'm stuffing. Which is what I've done all my life. Is stuff. Posting here is great because I feel like I'm setting myself free. Allowing my feelings to live and breathe.


Thanks