JL, I'm incredibly proud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow! I read this whole post and all the thoughts and advice are so awesome!!!

As a WW or FWW (trying to figure out what would be the right current classification), there's a lot that I resonate with in your wife, Drexell. Primarily, her hot/cold, hot/cold cycle regarding her outlook on the marriage. I think a big part of that cycle lies in her wanting to accept your forgiveness, optimistically wanting to renew your marriage and your love together, while on the other side, she is completely aware of how undeserving she is of your love.... for me, when I realize how undeserving I am of my husband's love, my immediate physical response is to tense up, and then to reject first, before I can be rejected.I much rather "choose" to not be in a relationship I can't bear to lose, than to face the horrible rejection and overwhelming heartbreak of its loss.

I don't think it's a rational response, but an emotional response, rooted in fear. It might be some sort of attempt to "control" one's life, to control what many times may seem uncontrollable (because of one's actions).

I often get frustrated with myself for why things can be so hard for me, why I do stupid, foolish things, and then everything gets so out of control... it is really hard for me to be with my husband, because he is so amazingly good to me. It is hard for me to accept love because when I was younger I was rejected so much by my own parents. I wonder if healthier people can accept love and forgiveness easier? Or if they feel others should at least give them a chance to make things better?

I wonder if your WW is like me and she feels she does not deserve any one's love, especially yours.... so she denies her own need for you in her life, your forgiveness, your companionship, as a reactionary response prompted by extreme fear of worthlessness, or maybe that her worth lies only in her performance, and her performance has been bad, so how could you possibly love her unless you're mad? (As opposed to loving her for the who she is, as a spirit, for her uniqueness, etc. basically the way God looks at us...)

Wierdly, reading this post has given me a lot of hope, for thinking that maybe my husband does want to forgive me, that maybe he does still love me and want to be with me...

Toosad,

Has it crossed you mind that the decision to love and forgive you is NOT yours? It is your H's. Whether you feel deserving or not, is not the issue. HE feels you are deserving, it is his call. You are really disrespecting him by assuming your feelings on this manner are the deciding ones.

That sounds harsh doesn't it? But, the truth of this is really rather simple. You have value to yourself. You have internal morals, and values, strengths and weaknesses. It is your job to use your strengths and address your weaknesses. It is your job to guard your boundaries (often these are morals as well). It is even your job to decide if YOU will forgive your H, yes that is right. You are holding out because you have NOT forgiven him for not being like the other people in your life. So you treat him like them.

It is his job to decide if he will forgive you. It is his job to decide if you are of value in his life. He has made that decision apparently. He values you in his life.

Further, I will use your words to describe how he feels and felt. You said
You may not realize this but your H felt this. He was rejected big time and do you know who he blames more than anyone? Himself. Read your quote and ask him if he has not felt rejected and worthless and that his performance as an H was poor.

The only issue is do you love your H? I don't mean "feel in love", do you love him as you vowed to do. Love is a verb not a feeling. If you do or can love your H, you are failing him big time in your fear. Further, you are trying to assume decisions that are his...your worth to him. He has apparently decided. It really is that simple.

What you are confusing is that it is not easy, but it is simple. Don't make this complicated.

I think your post will help Drexxell alot, but I hope you take another look at your post and realize you are trying to make decisions that are not yours to make and frankly decisions that your H has already made.
It might surprise you what you come to realize. Your parents decisions were theirs as well, not yours. They have clearly have had a profound affect on you, but remember this your H is NOT either of your parents. You should not blame him for their mistakes.

Please think about this. I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

hmmmmm....

I'm going to need some time to really process this... It makes sense, it is not my decision to make, but my husband's, if he can forgive me....Wow.

I asked him if he felt rejected and worthless, if he felt horrible about failing me as a husband. He said no. I asked him if he ever felt like that, maybe right after I told him, and he said yes. But I think he doesn't feel that way because he knows I am infatuated with him. I say "infatuated", but what I really mean is, I just love who he is. I see now and I think more and more that he is really reaching out to me. I still can't understand why he'd do that, though.

I know he feels really hurt that I cheated on him. But he is being really good about not being codependent and blaming himself for my choices. He acknowledges that he hasn't been there for me, hasn't met some of my needs, but I don't think he has ever thought he pushed me to the affair. Which is strange, for me, because I was at such a point of desperation, and I don't think he really understood how badly. I still wonder now if he fully comprehends how he contributed to our problems.

I wonder, though, if he bottles his emotions or denies them? He is the only child of two alcoholics.

I have built him up endlessly for a long time now, way before I ever told him about the affair, and even before I was able to end the emotional affair. It wasn't very hard to do, for me.... I think my husband is amazing, I always have, he is shockingly talented and good hearted, that wasn't really ever the issue. He is also very physically appealing to me.

The issue was that he didn't care to be emotionally available for me, to be my friend. That's why I took his actions to mean that maybe I'm just a lame duck or something, because if I think he's as awesome as I do, it wasn't me rejecting him (or so it seemed to me at the time). Of course, now I see that having an affair is a direct rejection of a spouse.

(I understood this concept at the time of the affair, but I think I chose to ignore my own better judgment, and I felt justified (ugh, I hate the word) in my thinking, because he was so unavailable to me. (I also suspected he was having an affair, too. Turns out, although he was shooting artistic nudes (photography), and staying out all night to play poker, he was not, as I suspected, having an external relationship)). (I asked him to not do either of those activities, however... I explained how much the hurt me, but he was resistant at the time).

I think the problem was our lovebusters. We had a lot of them going on, nearly daily. We couldn't have one day without serious conflict. After I ended the physical affair, I started completely cutting out the bad behavior on my part. I stopped participating in unhealthy conflict handling. I stopped yelling. I called him on "lovebuster" behavior, although I hadn't found this site at the time. After my physical affair ended (it was mutual on both our parts), maybe a month and a half later my husband moved out of state for business. We lived separately for half a year, but it was not a "separation" separation. He visited every couple weekends, and we had a lot of fun together. (He didn't know anything of the affair at the time. I saw the other guy only two or three times at Starbucks, and nothing happened. We were both focusing on our marriages and were dead set against anything going on between us again). I focused on my studies and started seeing an IC. I went for just a little less than half a year. My affair was the main topic, and then into my rejection issues. I missed my husband awfully bad. Most weekends, I just stayed home, studied. I didn't eat out or go to movies. I exercised a lot, read a lot, but my sleep suffered. I couldn't sleep the night through at all. I woke up every morning about 2 -4 am, and just thought about the guy I had the affair with. I couldn't get him out of my mind. I had dreams about him that wouldn't go away. I knew I had completely messed myself up. When my dreams change, there's a problem. I decided to permanantly relocate our house to my husband's location at Christmas, and quit school even though my schooling was the one thing I have looked forward to my whole life. My husband didn't want to leave the area permanantly, but it was as if I knew I just had to get out of there, because we would fall apart otherwise.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I am certainly in a more optimistic mood than normal. He came home and brought a gourmet meal of dungenness crab portabella and portabella stuffed wild Salmon. He also bought rasberries strictly for me as dessert, and he knows how much I like them. We vegged and watch a movie together, and I cooked a yummy califlower/broccoli/mushroom dish to round out our fare. He has a huge need for domestic support. He was an only child completely pampered by his mother. I used to resent the fact that he wanted me to take care of him in this way, but what can I do? I mean, if it is an emotional need for him? It doesn't make any sense to me, but if he comes home and the house is messy, he doesn't feel loved. I don't get it at all, but I suppose I don't need to understand it.

But I still want to grasp completely what you are saying. i wish I could stop being so codependent. I wish I didn't always feel responsible for everyone. I don't know how to do this exactly, I have Cloud and Townsend's boundaries books, they have helped me a lot, but it seems impossible sometimes to figure it all out.

Hello Toosad, Welcome to my world. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I thought my wife could have written this. One of the things she said to me was that she didn't want to dedicate a year of her life to therapy just to find out that I was done and that I couldn't forgive her. This is a very familiar tune to me.


If I didn't know that my wife was in bed with me when you wrote this, I would be strangely curious. Maybe she had an 'out of body' experience. Seriously, she has commented several times about how she feels she has no control over her life. Now, I don't make a decision without her enthusiastic agreement. This control thing has gotten better, but it's still there.


This sounds like what our MC told us and WW agreed with it.
But it's not just my love and forgiveness she doesn't feel worthy of. She's kinda given God the cold shoulder too. I think she'll invite Christ back into her life when she's ready though.

Neither of my parents drank, but I grew up as the oldest child in an abusive house. Chances are your hubby is bottling. I think he should see an IC for even just a few sessions to address the possibility that he was traumatized by having alcoholic parents. The way he grew up is certainly effecting the relationships he has in the rest of his life.

A tidy house is likely important to him because his house as a kid was always a wreck. And I think you do need to understand his emotional needs in order to fill them properly. If you can't grasp why keeping the house clean makes him happy, then one day, you're doing laundry and talking to yourself (cause we all do it) and you start saying things like, "Why does this even matter to him anyways? This is so dumb, him expecting a clean house like this. Shouldn't it be more important to him that he just love me?" And now what's happening is that he's losing love units in your love bank and he's not even aware of it. I encourage you to find out why having a clean house is so important to him.

Toosad, I look forward to following your story as you progress to compare the similarities. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JL, your words, once again, are wise. They tend to keep me rooted and realistic. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For some men there is a need for what I would call domestic support. The husband wants to know the houshold is taken care of and when he comes home his world is at peace, in order and he can relax. It's more typical when there is a SAHM, but some expect it of a working mother, which I have never understood. You can't work 8 hours in a day, and then have the house spotless too. There is just no way. It's tough enough having to keep kids in the house and trying to keep it picked up and neat.

I'm not asking you to hate her

but

What is your bottom line? Have you thought about that?

Susan,

I'm not sure I understand your "bottom line" question. But if you're asking me what she would have to do to make me hands down get up and leave, I'm not sure. I can say she hasn't done it yet.

If I found out my wife had a substance abuse problem I wouldn't turn my back on her. The number of affairs leads me to believe there's an addiction here. Maybe there isn't. We don't know yet.

If I misunderstood your question, please let me know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Drexell, beware, this is a LONG post!!!!! Long!


I have often asked myself why I feel so much (not as much as it used to be) that I have no control over my life. There are the obvious things, such as me taking out debt to finance the start of my husband's business, and feeling strapped and trappped into focusing on his business instead of my dreams. My husband can't see why I would complain if it was my "choice" to help, along with any other "choices" I make.

I think a big part of it is because I couldn't and still sometimes struggle with telling him the truth of what I really want. I have strong people pleaser tendencies, so what I used to do nearly all the time was answer that I do want to do stuff when I don't, that I'm excited about going to a certain movie he wants to see when I'm not. Mainly, I followed my logic and it's because I want him to be happy with me, so I try to convince myself that "Yeah, I'm excited about that!" when I'm really not.

But the wierd thing is that I didn't know myself for a really long time. I'd go along with something, or even think I wanted something, only to find myself frustrated later. I realized with lots of introspection that deep down, I didn't think my husband would change plans or do things differently simply because I liked them better a certain way. I felt that I didn't deserve to have my feelings and preferences considered. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> For example, my husband always wanted to see late movies out, 10 or 11 pm movies. Deep down, and way before we ever got married, I liked and wished secretly that I could be sleeping every night at 10 or 11 pm. But I went along with his preference for years, until just recently this year I started sharing that I didn't want to see movies starting after 9 (now we're watching movies starting at 8 or 7 pm).

But that has made a huge difference, and all I had to do was give my husband the chance to meet my needs.

Something that my husband has done too is that he doesn't pressure me to do what he wants any more. He is a natural sales person, so it is his nature to try to sell my on an idea. But now, when he asks about a movie, or about anything else, he always says, "but we can go home too, if that's what you want, if you want to go to bed earlier. Or we can go to coffee...) which, that last part about the coffee, is really big, because I used to always want to go to coffee, and he never wanted to go. So he gives me outs in case my people pleaser speaks up instead of my real voice.

[color:"blue"] [/color] I would ask your WW what sorts of things she feels she has no control over. Tell her that you're sorry she feels like that and you care about her and don't want her to feel like that. (this is important, she might feel like you don't care that she feels like that). If she could paint an ideal world, what would things be like? Would she be doing things differently, a different job, a different city, would you be doing things differently as her husband? If there was something ideally that you could do differently, regardless of whether you can actually do it in real life what would it be? (You want to get her talking to reveal some of her deepest heart needs and dreams if possible). [color:"black"] [/color] I ask this because maybe there are certain things you need to move towards together as a couple. For me, I needed to make a career change. I am still far away from the realization of that, because I want to be a university professor and that means I have to complete my Phd. But that is something we are trying to earnestly move towards, my husband thinks financially and logistically everything will work out so I can go back to school in Jan 2007. (It is still hard for me to believe my husband cares at all about my occupational dreams. In the back of my mind, I keep thinking he much rather have me stay in business, since I can bring in a lot of money).

Your WW may feel that often there is only one choice she can make, because all the others are bad, or worse. But those other choices are still real, solid, potential choices, and if she chooses the best one, that is something she can feel good about, instead of feeling that was the only real choice. She can actually feel good about making the best choice because it benefits her family or it moves her closer to something she wants in her life. But she has to decide what she wants her life to look like. This requires living life in reality and not in fantasy. All the imaginary worlds, with all things being perfect, is not reality, and not attainable. I had to realize this. I had to grieve the loss of the "unattainable perfect" and instead embrace reality and choose to make that the best it could be. Life lived in reality can be a lot more fulfilling than life lived in fantasy. For me, I had to banish fantasy out of my mind. Without knowing, part of what may be complicating it for your WW is the romance books she reads. They keep you trapped longing for something unattainable, while neglecting the good that might exist in your life in reality. (I don't know how I'd bring this up. You don't want her to feel like you are trying to control her, especially since how she relates to the concept of "control" is that she has none in her life.)

Something really wierd too, that I'll add in here.... after I started my affair, I realized shockingly that I finally felt I had control over something, that the affair was MY choice, not my husband's, and I could finally make up my own mind about something. I know it is warped, but that is how I thought. So this "control" issue is something that definitely needs working on, because I think that if your WW owned the actual real power she does have in her own life, she may not feel subconsciouly motivated and driven to an affair to have something she is in "control" over. I don't know if this applies at all. That's why I think Dr. Harley's "Joint Agreement" policy is so cool, it addresses the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness of having any power over one's own life.

With the housecleaing bit, that was a point of contention for a long time. My parents used to make me and my sister clean the house, saying they had daughters to clean up after them, while my brother got off scott free. Since he always got the special treatment, I felt like I mattered less because i was a girl. And with my husband wanting me to clean the house, or being mad with me if it wasn't clean, I ended up feeling more like his maid than his wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I told him about how I felt, but he didn't understand for a long time. Mainly, it was the "obligation" part, where he acted like it was my duty and job to do it, and to me instead of feeling like I could choose to do it out of love, I was forced to do out of fear of the loss of his love. Does that make sense? I couldn't give it to him as a gift of love, because my sense of being loved and accepted was threatened if I didn't, so I ended up doing it out of obligation, which is horrible..

I think he feels loved when I provide domestic support because his mom used to clean up after him. She was always so happy to do it. She showered all her attention on him. But honestly, it's hard to compete with his mom.


I wonder if part of your WW view on God has anything to do with her view of her father? I've heard it said that many times people think of God in the same way they relate to their father.

It was liberating for me after my abortion when I realized that God loved me regardless, that my sins, even the after abortion, were the reason he sent Jesus as our sacrifice to wipe our slate clean. He had actually made a plan that included deliverance for MY sins too, not just everyone else's. It was a hugely personal revelation to me. That he could love me like that, and still be so excited about me, as his child, that he didn't frown on me disapprovingly but that he was there waiting for me to come to him, to bring my needs and brokenness to him. God never expected me to be perfect, I was the one expecting perfection from myself, and then rejecting myself when I didn't reach it.


I've suggested to him to see an IC for a year or two now... I suggested taht maybe he was bottling up stuff that he didn't know was there. He has whole years of his childhood he just doesn't remember. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The thing is, he's this happy-go-lucky person who seems to forgive easily, and he doesn't think he has anything that is something that needs working on.
Strangely, that is one of the things I liked about the guy I had the affair with. He had a series of emotions, eagerness, tension, frustration, distraught, excitement... aside from just happy and sad, or happy and mad. I think my husband takes any emotion between happy and mad and tries to make it into happy, or else it doesn't exist. Life can get bland when the only emotions shared are happy and mad.

I am trying to encourage him to share his emotions with me, I am trying to not express disatisfaction if an emotion he has is displeasing to me, but instead to participate and care about what is going on in his experience. Basically, I don't want to send him the signal that he always has to be "happy" for me, but that he can be where he's at, and that's fine. I want him to know that with me, he doesn't have to live in fantasy, or maintain fantasy. He can live in reality and he can expect safety in that with me. (I used to frustrated if he wasn't happy when he was with me. I felt it reflected on me. I think we both did a lot of manipulating of our emotions for the other, instead of a "policy of honesty".

The struggle is that the problems that have torn up our marriage have been long persistent and ingrained into the fabric of our marriage. Even though slowly things have changed and are still changing, it will take a long time for me to earnestly beleive that they are different. I have huge moments of despair because I don't know if I can make it at times. Sometimes my despair lasts for days. Sometimes I wish I could just turn off my emotions. I am a big self-help type of person, but I had to learn to back off and not try to help my husband, not tell him what to do. I think mainly I get lost in hopeless desperation. I am still in withdrawal from that other guy. I wish I wasn't. It's that "fantasy" side of me that wants to believe things could be better with him. But I know it's bs in my mind, I know in reality he would never be anything like my husband.


I practice these things and struggle with some of these things every day. I don't have them down pat. I think the reason I am aware of these things that I have talked about is because they are such issues for me. They are on my awareness because of how often they raise their ulgy heads. I have to counter false thinking or unhealthy thinking every day, especially fantasy thinking. I hope maybe it'll get easier at some point.


Sorry I ramble on so long and am so long-winded. Please feel free to add whatever you think may be helpful, other people too. Thanks.

I'm not on top of my game right now and I considered not replying until tomorrow so if I'm confusing or anything, it's just the roller coaster. I'm kind of at a "stall", if you see what I'm saying. Imagine riding a roller coaster in the dark or with your eyes closed and momentum all but stops. That's a "stall". WW just called a few minutes ago and said she was on her way home from work. I thought she was working late, but she said she went out for a long walk and did some thinking. Said we would talk. Then she asked me if we were still going out tonight! That explains the stall. LOL


Are you familiar with the Giver and the Taker? Your Giver has locked your Taker in a dark closet. You need to make a conscious decision to get your Taker out of there before it busts it's way out and creates some serious Love Busters.

{quote}But that has made a huge difference, and all I had to do was give my husband the chance to meet my needs.[/quote]

I wish I could post that on every thread here!


I have no doubt that the reason she feels a lack of control and in turn has resentment toward me for it is because for so long she had to hide what she had done. The choice to tell me was so bad to her that it wasn't a real choice. Then another affair, another thing to hide, more guilt, the choice is even worse. Another affair for the euphoria. It's short lived. More guilt. The choice isn't even there any longer. I sincerely believe that each affair was to get a high to overcome the increasing guilt.

I asked her what aspects of her life she felt I controlled. Guess what they were? Things that she had agreed to because she thought she had to in order to make me happy. Sound familiar? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Proving my point that if you keep your Taker locked in a closet, it'll bust out. But what you may not know is that when you're not looking, your Taker is letting him/herself out of the closet to get what he/she needs, then putting on a dog and pony show when you're looking.


She was raised going to church. When we're in town, we always go to church with her parents. Her father isn't a Bible thumper, but he's active in the church, involved in the choir, etc. Her parents were disappointed with her when they found out, but they made it very clear that they loved her. What they also made very clear was they loved and support both of us equally. In many ways, I'm the son they didn't get to have. (They have 3 daughters) I accept that because my parents are so screwy I'm still looking for the right support group. I have a much better relationship with her parents than I do my own.

One thing her parents told her was that they would be even more disappointed if she didn't put forth the effort to try to resolve our issues. It's an interesting relationship that we all have that I'm sure my IC would be able to write a book about.


My brother and I are like this. Both of us with massive childhood trauma and laid back as can be. We never learned how to deal with "red" emotions, the ones that cause pain or anger or jealousy. It all gets bottled. My brother is still convinced that it's genetic and has resolved not to have children so as to not put them through what he went through or prevent them from causing damage to other people.


I'll bet every thing you can put on a list in this category is a habit. Habits can be changed, and sometimes rather quickly. I.E. 2 days after discovery, I quit smoking cold turkey. Had been trying to quit for years. It was a big love buster. I knew it. I didn't care. It made me happy and I knew my wife hated it. Darndest thing though. Some of WWs As were with smokers.

Well, she's home so I'm gonna get going. I'll post more tomorrow. See ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TooSad,

You have said a few things that many people here forget, especially when they first come here. Probably the biggest is
POWER, it is something that both WS and BS have lots of and they don't realize it.

You discussion of control is interesting and mildly amusing only because the person controlling you is YOU. You are not the first to complain that they feel controled in a marriage and it is usually the WS. However, most eventually see that they were controlling themselves.

Your fears controlled you not your H. You mentioned earlier about worth and why your H could love you after all of this. It is very clear from what you have said about him he always loved you and does now. It is clear you are aware that he will receive your requests and suggestions with an open heart and mind.

As you stated you just need to tell him. It has been my observation from being here awhile that now more than ever you need to talk to him about what YOU want.

You also do need to see if he will consider counseling given what you have said about him. It would seem his way of coping with his family was to stay out of the way, and be happy, ie, don't make any waves. That is not healthy as you have suggested.

You also said
You do see how messed up this is don't you? One of the things you will notice if you stay around her for awhile is that your perspective on things will change. The quote above is an example. It takes time.

You also said a few other things I would like to comment on.

OK a comment about us guys. We don't have NEEDS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, we don't have feelings, and give me a break about emotions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That water you see coming out of my eyes is from sweat my dear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No guys have egos, not feelings. And we sure as heck don't NEED anything or any body got that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My point is that you need to find alternative ways to get under his defenses. Men do not talk about things as women do. In fact, we don't often consider talking as a strategy to solve problems. We will ask for the information we think we need, but to just talk and talk and talk....NOPE. It is also why us guys have a hard time helping women. ARE YOU LISTENING Drexxell???? When women often talk of problems or issues, it is the talking they want and need, NOT A SOLUTION. Most of us guys, and you bet I am right there too, hear of a problem and want to solve it. We want our spouses happy and we think solving the problem will do the trick. WRONG. Listening to them discuss and ruminate about the problem will do the trick, not solving the darned thing.

Don't ask me it makes no sense to me, but hey. I am just learning you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously Toosad, your H has an additional problem very likely and that he does not want to make waves, so he tries to be what he thinks people want. He is a conflict avoider. What some proof? Look at the next line of your statement.



You wanted him happy, he was happy. So you see you both were doing pretty much the same thing...wanting your partner to be HAPPY with them.

I think it is an excellent idea to get him to open up, and the POJA is great, but focus on getting under his defenses. You know he is a guy, AND you know his childhood very likely affected him with regard to conflict and making waves. You know alot really, the trick is to use your knowledge to rebuild your marriage.

Finally you said something that Drexxell needs to consider as well. You said


First you are still in withdrawal, and you need to let your H know that you are AND more importantly you are aware of it. You do realize that the use of term withdrawal is more than metaphorical don't you. Your brain has changed and emits hormones that make you happy when you think of OM. It will take awhile for your brain to change its responses. That is where perspective becomes huge. There really is a chemicall aspect to what you are going through and it takes a month or two for it to go away.

Toosad, you can help your H. Not by telling him what to do, but by talking with him. Discussing things. Discussing different ways to address an issue. Where both of you see how many solutions you can come up with, and then discuss the pluses and minus of each from your point of view. Your self-help knowledge will come in during this phase as you can add insight that perhaps he might miss. This way you are NOT educating him (something that oddly is most often the problem with the BS trying to rebuild), but you are allowing him access to your knowledge.

This has a corrolary and that his your need to voice you wants. Let's take the movie issue. When he suggests a movie, and perhaps it is a late movie. The response should be when are the times it is showing? Then ask: What are the advantages of going mid afternoon, early evening, late? What are the disadvantages?

You deflect your own unwillingness to make him unhappy by asking questions and then discussing the answers. This is actually part of the POJA which is after all simply a negotiating tool. Another way for either of you to discuss sensitive issues is to find a topic that is similar in the paper, on the news, Dr. Phil, whatever, and discuss it. Now it is a 3rd party thing with no emotional involvement on either of your parts. But, this let's you gather and give information without either of you feeling attacked.

So much to say Toosad. Drexxell, I hope you don't mind the thread jack, but I felt that some of what I have said might help you as well.

God Bless,

JL

I wish I realized this before my affair. I felt so horribly powerless then. I didn't understand that I could do whatever I wanted. I could have said, "Actually, I think I'm going to skip the movie tonight and hit the sheets..." or "I'll clean up the kitchen tomorrow morning, but feel free to put your dish in the sink". Yeah, I was totally people pleasing and being dishonest about my own wishes. It's strange how I felt I didn't even have power over my own time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


This is so true. I was living completely in fear. I felt I had to be "perfect" for him to be happy with me. I didn't think I could just be me and have my preferences and that would be ok. The funny thing is that while I thought and maybe he wanted me to do things a certain way, I took that same miserable attitude with him (that he should do things a certain way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We were walking around each other on glass. How awful.



This is still very hard for me.


Yeah, my Husband goes out of his way to avoid making waves. I've been encouraging him to be honest with himself and me about what he wants. I've told him, "Please don't lie to me about you want, or if you're upset. Please tell me the truth. I'll honor it, and it's important to me that you can speak honestly to me." I've also told him that he doesn't have to pretend to be ok with something if he's not ok. When he's been mad at me for being mad at him, I've told him, "I'm angry right now about this. I'm entitled to having my own emotions. If I'm upset, then I'm upset. Let me feel what I feel."

And maybe a little more about how I'm a human, and humans have emotions, so I'm not going to lie to myself about how I feel, and that maybe I'm uspet now, but I'll process through it, work it out, and then I'll be fine. I think he feels responsible for my emotions, which I've told him he's not, and sometimes I might feel upset about something when he didn't do anything wrong, but I still have to process my frustration and work through it, and that he shouldn't always assume he's done something wrong.

This is big for me, I have only learned to do this in the past year, and strangely I think as a result of the affair. I cheated with a guy who called me on the fact that I wasn't honest with myself, and sometimes with him as a result. As horrid as it sounds, I feel that part of what I learned in the affair saved our marriage, because it was headed down the tubes, and my husband and I weren't treating each other very well.


I completely agree.



Sure, but how do I do that? How do I get under his defenses? Is there a secret to it? My husband is very closed. I'm sure it involves being both really perceptive and tactful, but what does it look like?


I have thought of telling him, but don't you think it'd only hurt him more?


hmmmmm.... certainly changes the perception. I wasn't thinking of it like that...


I am going to try. I know part of it will come from living healthy myself, being transparent, and sharing my own experiences with him. Sharing just to share, not with the intention of influencing. People always seem to know when someone is trying to influence them.


Awesome suggestions. Really a very good method or strategy. I am going to be thinking this over....

Drexell,

I read a little about the Giver and Taker. I don't really understand it completely. I mean, the concept is simple enough, but other than knowing that I gave and gave, and then with the affair, I took and took, and was not as generous after the affair, I'm not certain exactly how to balance them. I have a hard time expressing my needs or asking for help.


Wow.... yes, I suppose that's what I call the "bi*** coming out...

My husband used to manipulate me with his words. I called him on it, but he never agreed with me. If he'd ask me to serve him up icecream while we were in the middle of watching a movie at home together, and I was tired and didn't have energy to do it, or if I got myself a glass of milk and he wanted me to serve him up some other dish and heat it up, he'd call me "selfish" if I didn't want to. It really hurt, especially since I've always tried to be really generous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I told him it wasn't selfishness, that I had a choice whether not I wanted to serve him out of love, and if I chose not to, it wasn't because I didn't love him, but because maybe at that moment I just didn't want to. The thing is, I just ended up feeling obligated all the time. I felt a "no" wasn't a real answer I was entitled to.



Even if her parents really love her, that doesn't mean that possibly they weren't hurtful with some of their parenting. I suppose the problem is that humans are fallible. For example, always giving a child positive reward when they do something wrong can teach the child (subconsiously) that they are only acceptable when they do well in school, or when they are obedient. A lot of well-meaning parents fail to remember in their parenting techniques to build up their children even while disciplining them, letting them know that the fact they have done something wrong doesn't change the parent's amount of love or acceptance of them.

Certainly, in my own parenting as a child, I didn't feel my parents wanted me in their presence if I did something wrong. They would get mad at me and I knew that I'd do better to leave the room till their anger boiled over. It is wierd, in that light, to imagine a God who actually does want to be with me, even in the very moment of my sin. That is how some people look at God, that they can not be wanted or loved by him until they are not "sinning", which if you think about is absurd, because to be sinless would either be to not be human, or to be human after death in heaven, where there will be no sin.


hmmmm.... you may not agree with me in my analysis of this, and that's fine, I might not be anywhere close in my thinking, but without meaning any harm, her parents have just reinforced the people-pleaser tendency in her. They are trying to motivate her by telling her they will be disappointed if she doesn't work harder on the relationship. That is a control mechanism.

It might have been better if they said something like:

"Darling, we are concerned about what's happening in your marriage. We want to challenge you to honor your vows before God, to not give up on the miraculous work he can do, even in your marriage, and to not give up. This is not about what we want, but about what is best for you, and as a result, best for your whole family. We believe in you and in the marriage, but most of all, we believe in God's restoring and renewing power.... We are here and will be here for you and your family whenever you need us, we will do everything we can to support your marriage..."

How can your WW not feel controlled by her parents when they use their approval of her to control her actions? Giving and withholding approval is a huge tactic used to control others.

To a strong-willed non-people pleaser, the parent's comment about being more disappointed with her wouldn't phase her that much. But a true people pleaser, like me, would feel bad about it. Ultimately, you don't want your wife to choose to stay with you because of her fear of other people's rejection. She should choose to stay with you because she decides it's what she wants. She might stay with you initially because she cares what other people think, sure, if it works in the minute, but that won't address the people-pleaser feeling of having no control, which may drive her to another affair.

My other thought is, since your WW has evident trouble with feeling like she has no control of her life, where do you think that came from? That's why I think it might be parentally based.

Maybe I'm strange in my thinking, but I think that if your wife felt more forgiven and accepted just as she is, with all her booboos, it would be a lot easier for her to change her behavior. The fact that she has a hard time with forgiveness, the way I do, suggests that forgiveness was granted scantilly or after she made serious ammends as a child. Or maybe after her parents being "upset" with her for a long time. I think it is a learned response for her.


My husband is just like that! He is very uncomfortable with anger. For a long time he chided me every time I was angry, telling me being angry was wrong. (well, I don't think I should be angry all the time, if so I should do something about dealing with my anger in a healthy way.)


A good part of it, for sure. But what do you do with learning how to meet each other's needs? That is outright foreign territory.

The trouble is, my husband is not academically minded at all. And nearly everybody in the field I'm going in is male. So that means that to talk to other people about a lot of the stuff on my mind, I'd be talking to other guys. That is the original problem. In the affair I fell in love with a guy in my field, mainly because we could have such good conversations. I know it seems absurd, but conversation is such a big thing. Well, really, the problem came with talking about personal issues, a huge taboo.

I've known so long that that's a emotional need of mine, that I've proactively avoided male friendships... but then, is that a very healthy way to live life? My husband says it's hard for him to be supportive of my career because he is scared I'll go back to school and fall in love with some other guy. Women don't usually pursue higher education; at my age they are married with two or three children. My husband is getting to the age that he's thinking about kids, and I'm scared to death I will never be a professor the way I've dreamed ever since junior high. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Toosad,

What field are you planning on pursuing your PhD? Your H has a right to be fearful, especially right now. But, here is a thought. I asked you something about how your H is handling things and you said well. Here is a clue. His response shows that he has great self-doubt his ability to satisfy you as an H. Otherwise, he would not be so worried about you returning back to school.

Another flash for you is that even if you get your PhD, you may not become a professor. It is something you really need to think about. In most fields there are other avenues for someone with a PhD. Understand those avenues before you leap back into school. It will help you more than you realize.

As for children it can be done while in school, but it is tough on ALL concerned.

Now about the giver/taker thing. You are seeing it right now in your issue of receiving your H's love. Now you would think this falls into the "taker" category, but actually it is in your "giver" that you find you can receive a gift. You acceptance of your H's love is actually a gift...to him.

Sounds screwy doesn't it? Balancing the giver and taker requires honesty with yourself and your H. It requires empathy so that one can see both sides and still understand why you are one side of an issue. It requires that you can respect your H's point of view even if you don't agree.

Balance is not so hard to acheive IF you realize that you like almost all people on this planet are motivated by fear and greed. So is your H. Now the terms fear and greed are not just about safety and money, but needs, uncertainties, emotions. You should not be afraid to ask for what you want, but a balanced giver/taker will realize that their request just may be more than the spouse can supply and that the spouse needs things from you as well.

So many thoughts Toosad. I do think that as you completely out of the "fog" of withdrawal, much of this will make sense. But, it seems clear both you and your H have many Family of Origin, FOO, issues. These need to recognized even if you two don't go to counseling. It does sound as if it would be a good idea.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

To all those posting on this thread - thank you.

Drexxell you give me hope and strength.

JL - your words are golden and wise. I feel like I need to read them a hundred times.

Toosad - your vulnerability on a very pro-BS board is noble.

Drexxell & JL - would be very grateful for your take on my sitch. Thread is "WW Resentment".

Much love.

MDC

MDC, I promise I will go over and look at your thread in depth. I can't promise that I will have anything of use to say. I'm still new at this. Right now, I'm going to post a vent as the "stall" from last night led to a downward run on the coaster.

I know it's the coaster and it's normal. I don't have to like it. I'm confused, I'm sad and in general feel like pulling all my hair out.

Usually, WW calls at a certain time frame to say she is either leaving or working later than normal and will call me again when she's leaving. Mainly this is so I know when to start dinner or to feed the kids without her. Not yesterday. So, I waited... and waited for about an hour after she normally calls before I tried to call her. Couldn't get her at work or on her cell. Half hour after that, she calls. Now she's on her way home. She had decided to take a long walk to think about things, argue with herself she says.

She follows that up by asking me if I still want to go out that night and we renew the committment to go out and she says "we'll talk" when she gets home. So, she gets home. We do a couple of cursory things like discuss the mortgage payment, then she decided she really wasn't feeling up to going out. I was already feeling VERY insecure when she got home. This reinforced it. She asked me out, confirmed it, then cancelled. Maybe it's irrational, but it still hurt.

After we set ground rules for the conversation, we talked for over 90 minutes. We talked mainly about things that she was afraid she couldn't address because of how she thought I would respond. You all would have been proud. I didn't love bust at all. She says, "I want you to know that my feelings haven't changed. We're friends. I also want you to know that I really have seen the effort you're putting out." I wanted to cry.

I felt like I was emotionally slapped. What I HEARD was, "I've seen your effort, but it doesn't mean anything." Then the doubts started rolling through my mind. The 'why are you trying? she doesn't appreciate what you're doing.' Then she says, "I know I committed to the 8 sessions that the insurance is covering. And I really am trying." I sat silently waiting for the explosive 'but'. It never came. So, now I'm worried about unexploded ordinance that could blow up in my face. More doubts. 'she's just biding her time, waiting for the right moment.'

I expressed how I wanted to make her happy and was sincerely sorry that I hadn't done that. Then I asked for her forgiveness. She said, "It's not like I'm agry with you. I'm trying to forgive you. I've never been good at holding a grudge." She, at this point, verbally accepted responsibility for almost everything and told me stop blaming myself. But she followed that up with, "I can be happy by myself. I can be happy with just friends and family." Sucker punch. Then she talked about how she wanted to feel fulfilled and didn't know if that kind of thing existed anymore.

We talked about how she didn't and doesn't feel desired or cherished. We talked about how in the "moment" of each A she felt desired and how almost instantly after it was over there was guilt. I'm glad I hadn't eaten. I would have been ill knowing that I made her feel that way. I asked her what she thought it would take to make her feel fulfilled by being desired and cherished. "I don't know." I get a lot of 'I don't know's. 'I don't know' really drives me nuts too.

Then she says, "I feel like this conversation was productive and that we accomplished something." Huh?! "I'm tired and I should go to bed." She knows that last one irks me. I respect that she needs sleep, but I can't stand that no matter what we're doing, as soon as she decides it's bed time we stop doing whatever it is so she can go to bed.

So, there I was with a softball in my throat listening to her say our conversation was productive... I feel like I has just stood in an emotional boxing ring and got my [censored] handed to me. She feels it was productive. The progress I thought we had made in the last month she called "superficial".

I am not my usual pillar of strength this morning. I really need someone to lean on right now.

bump

Oh, Drex, this may be more of a bump and a hug than anything. You know, I'm early in the game and can't offer much true wisdom. Just know you are doing a great job in your role and that your Lord will continue to carry you. Look at the footprints in the sand right now and you will see one set. I'm praying for you now and praying that while what you got from her last conversation was painful to you that it is hopefully a process that is rough in the middle but will come out better in the end...

I'm sure it's BS fog and WS withdrawal contributing to it. Of COURSE her inner arguements are going to leave me confused. Her not wanting to go out last night after we said we were going was a big rejection to me. I dunno why, but it was almost like DDay again. I think at this point, ANY rejection is going to feel similar.

I don't know how to judge her sincerity. Is she sincerely putting forth an effort? I don't see it from my point of view. I'm really angry that she can say she takes responsibility for this that and the other thing and then not try to make up for it. I feel like I'm scrambling to keep things together and to her it just doesn't matter. Maybe it's more BS fog. I dunno.