I don't post a lot, but a read a lot. My WW makes some conflicting statements and I don't quite know what to make of it.

It's been a month since discovery. Family and friends are supportive. I don't believe she is still in contact with most recent OM or any of the rest of them for that matter. STD panel came back negative, by the way.

We've seen a counselor twice and WW has agreed to a third session coming up this week.

She says, "I don't want to be married to you. I can never forgive myself. I can never trust myself. I don't trust you."

Then in different conversations we talk about taking dancing lessons or how we're going to pay down our credit cards. We talk like the future isn't uncertain.

She says, "Don't you understand? I don't love you."

Later she says, "Every time I look at you I feel guilt. It just gets worse and worse."

She has expressed to me her frustration with not seeing more results after only 2 therapy sessions.

She presses me to put a finite time stamp on how long we should go to therapy before I realize that she isn't in love with me anymore. Then she says, "I don't want to dedicate the next year of my life to this just to find out that you're done. That you can never forgive me."

All this despite my reassurances that forgiveness and trust are there if we're willing to work to get them.

I say, "I love you." She says, "You're irrational."

I've read HNHN because it was the first one I could get. WW is reading it now. I'm currently reading LB and we have SAA and FILSIL waiting along with the workbook.

Of course, we have good days and we have bad days. We've gone out and had a lot of fun twice since discovery and we're going dancing tonight.

I'm stumped at how to interpret some of what she says. Our therapist put a lot of stress on honest communication at our last visit. WW will say in session that she really doesn't want to go, but then later agrees to another session.

Radical honesty isn't hard for me. I feel she has a hard time grasping it. I feel she scared to put effort into making our marriage what it should be because she feels that what she's done can't be forgiven and trust can't be restored.

Should I be trying to read more into what she's saying or should I take her words at face value?

I would be worried that she said to you that she could not trust herself. This to me implies that she cannot guarantee that she will not have sex with someone else and cheat on you again. There are consequences to her actions and it sounds like she does not wish to have any consequences. After all of this she tells you she cannot trust herself says a great deal and it is very very negative. By the way I do hope that you exposed this affair to the OM's wife or girlfriend. If you did not then you are sending a message to him that it is acceptable to screw your wife without worrying about the consequences to his actions. Expose is essential.

I think this is very typical of a WW in the fog. They all say the same thing. Ignore it, and continue with your Plan A.

Drexxell,

You asked
Well, first and foremost it is part of the fog, and it is guilt. And no you can make nothing of it, but you can respond to it. Permit me to offer you some ideas. In some circles it is called "fog babble" , someone like Believer can really help with ideas on this matter.

You said:


First, one month is very very early for her to be getting it together. IT is good that she is apparently having NC. However, she is going to have to face more than most WS's do. It is the reality of what she has done to her youngest son. She has had another man's baby. You don't state whether she KNEW this little boy was not yours, but you do now, and so does her family. She will never have any real idea what this has done to you, but she suspects you are hurt deeply. She knows she has potentially robbed her boy of the stability and home she should have provided for him with his father. Interestingly, the father would be you. If you leave you will have no reason to stay in his life. I think you will probably want to, but that would be contingent on HER decisions as much if not more as on yours.

She has a big problem here since this is affair #17 she is on now and two of the three children you are rearing are not yours biologically. Can she trust you to continue to be that father? No she cannot, not because of your actions but her own selfish actions preclude her ability to see that you would respond differntly from her. This will take a lot of counseling.


Is she seeing an IC for HER issues. No one has 17 affairs and not have big issues. This is NOT about you, it is clearly about HER. Whatever her issues are they need to be addressed.


Taking the last first. Of course she cannot trust you, you are not behaving as she would have if you had done this to her. You might want to ask her sometime what she would have done if YOU had 17 affairs, and a child by one of those women. Ask her to write down what she would have done to you financially, emotionally, physically. It might open her eyes abit. As for the not wanting to be married, of course this is true. It could not be any other way. Being married to you or ANYONE means she has to be responsible for her actions. It is the fantasy that she can run away from what she has done, to you, your kids, her kids, the marriage, and to herself. But, divorcing you will not change the parentage of the kids. It will not change that she is out having 17 affairs, except that they will not be called affair, right? Wrong, of course they will be because we know that a few of these OM were married.

But, her feelings are normal, and the guilt will be the big hurdle.


There are time where she wants to believe that somehow this can magically be fixed and that she can have you as her husband. That the kids will be happy, she will be happy, and you will be happy. In these times the future is NOT uncertain. You are hearing part of her dream.


I think an answer that may make her stop and think is: "Yes, I do understand you don't love me. How could I miss that point given what you have done. However, I believe that you used to love me, I believe you could love me, and I want to give you that chance because it is best for you to address what has happened."


Look at her and say, "I imagine you do, and I imagine it will." And then ask "do you want the guilt to go away?"

If she asks how. Then answer "with what you need to do is change "guilt" into remorse." And explain that guilt is designed to stop people from doing something ahead of time or stop what they are doing. In this case guilt is a little late. Remorse on the other hand is an emotion that leads to actions. Remorse leads people to address the wrongs they have committed and try to make them right. Perhaps she should consider replacing her guilt with remorse.


One is not going to fix decades of issues in 2 sessions and one month of "recovery". It will take years whether you two remain married or not.


I would definitely validate her fear about you never forgiving you. What you can state is that you want to be able to forgive her, but there is more healing that must be done. It takes 2 years to recover from the average affair.

You might want to point out that if she gives it her all, and it does not work, she will have a better chance of "forgiving" herself, than she does now. She needs to hang in there for herself, not just you, or even the kids. She hasn't considered what losing her or you will do to the kids.


Someone that has had 17 affairs is unlikely to really understand forgiveness or trust very well. They cannot see themselves doing it if they were in your shoes. So don't worry about that. Do worry that she will not seek counseling to address her issues. 17 affairs means that for sure this is NOT about you, especially when she is away from you and the family.


Just smile and say "Yup, sure am."



Normal rollercoaster, and actually pretty good for only a month of NC and finding out what you have found out.


Would you want to go and face what she has done, with a third person? It proves your W is not nuts. She knows she needs this, but that does not mean it does not hurt. No matter how one slices it, a 20 min. ONS is not the same as 17 affairs and having another man's child. She knows that, and she really does not want to face it. Who would? Acknowledge that "this must be very hard on her."


Well, here is where you both need to sit down and really really think. Can she be forgiven, surely God will IF she repents her sins. Her parents can, because she is their daughter, and although I am sure they are very disappointed in her, if she is sincere and changes her behavior they will have no trouble forgiving her. The kids will IF she works on the marriage and gives it her best effort, because it means she does care about them and their happiness and safety by maintaining the family. You will NEVER forget what she has done, NEVER. I cannot emphasize that enough. What can happen, if she is willing to work with you and understand you, is that the feeling associated with those memories can and will fade, so that the hurt will go away.

You need to make sure she understands the difference between forgiveness and forgetting. You can forgive her in time with effort on both of your parts. She is right it won't be easy, but clearly you feel she brings value to your life or you won't be there now.


My take on this question is that you should NOT read more into what she is saying nor should you take it at face value. What you are hearing is a woman in considerable pain, struggling to face the consequences of the decisions she has made and fearing that they have ruined her life and that of her children and perhaps even you.

She is going to struggle alot, or she will give up, in which case the struggle will come later for her. You can only be who you are, and what you are. You can reassure her that you are doing your best, but you cannot make any promises beyond that. But, I think if you realize the awful position she has placed herself, it will help you to deal with her comments as the ebb and flow of this situation continue for awhile.

Hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

This is kind of lengthy so I encourage you to go to the bathroom and get a drink before settling in.  First of all, thank you to everyone for a tremendous level of support.


I’m not sure that I’m not in a fog myself. Logical thinking corrupted by emotions. Am I really behaving like any other normal person would behave in this situation?


I expressed this to her and our therapist reinforced it in our last session by saying this would take a lot of work.


She suspected, but she wasn’t certain. She says the sperm donor was a 2 time event and that she told the OM during her pregnancy that there was a possibility that he was the father. She also told him again after the birth. I didn’t know about blood types and the like at the time.

When I exposed that part of this, I was careful to choose my words in saying that I did not take part in the conception of my son and genetics don’t make a daddy.


In the state that my son was born in, the biological father does not have parental rights if he has no relationship with the mother. My name is on the birth certificate. My son carries my name as I carry my fathers name. I think this is hard for WW to accept. I’m not worried about my sons genetics effecting any court proceedings.

WW and I have a major unresolved issue regarding this. I believe that eventually, my son will find out (like when he takes biology and they do blood typing. I did this in 5th grade.) I believe we should tell him before his biology teacher tells him. WW is adamantly against telling him at all.


When we see the therapist this week, this is one of the issues we plan to discuss. WW and I think IC is important for both of us and we want the same therapies we’re using now to do it.


I actually have asked this question, but not to the detail in which you suggest. She claims she would have left instantly. I say claims because she would not have left without the children. So, if the shoe were on the other foot, we’d have to examine her response as the stay at home step parent or the employed biological parent.


Substitute a couple of words and this is my response ver batum. The frequency in which she makes that statement is diminishing.


Her parents went through 1 ½ years of counseling 15 or so years ago for issues that I’m not privy to, but they were issues that did not involve infidelity. I think she’s looking at that and dreading dragging out what she’s feeling for an indefinite period of time.


I believe I have successfully validated that fear. I explained to her that I can’t forgive her if she doesn’t give me the opportunity to do so. I will try explaining it your way the next time it comes up.


As for the first part of this statement, I have expressed this many times. Regardless of what happens to us, we can’t be healthy individuals if we don’t deal with the issues at hand. As a matter of fact, the way she committed to the next session was by telling me she didn’t know how to deal with what was happening. After I explained that therapy was important to me, I asked her if she’d be willing to go with me to learn how to deal with it.

As far as not seeing how it could effect the kids, I’m not sure if she does or not. The fog could be keeping her from remembering that our 14 year old had to see a child psychologist for a couple of years for anger issues stemming from her divorce from her first husband.


As she and I were going through HNHN, we highlighted passages that were important to us and I asked her to tell me which emotional needs I was not meeting. She said there wasn’t a one and that I was a awesome husband and a good man. I’m not sure I believe that because I have made positive changes and she has noticed.

For example, as insane as this sounds, I quit smoking 2 days after discovery. It was a source of contention and a definite LB and I was flat out selfish about it. We both drank socially prior to discovery. She decided she would quit that and I said I would do it with her. She got defensive about that, saying she didn’t want or ask me to, until I explained that I knew she didn’t ask me to and I was doing it to be respectful and considerate. If someone is trying to stop doing something, especially your spouse, you shouldn’t do it in front of them, or behind them for that matter.


Again, very similar response. My favorite is when I say “I love you” and she says, “You’re crazy.” I always reply with, “Crazy about you.” It makes her laugh. Just to be clear, though, I don’t bombard her with ‘I love you’s. I tell her in the morning before we get out of bed when we hug and I tell her at night when we hug before we go to sleep. Sometimes I tell her during the day, but I’m trying not to smother her with it.


I have said that. I’ve also stated that my encouragement and support is available to her and I committed to seeing things through on my end.


Other than the 14yo, the kids don’t know yet. We told the 14yo because the decision for me to adopt him is ultimately his and he needs to be able to make an informed decision. HOWEVER... he only knows that we’re having difficulty and that we’re getting professional help. He knows no details and since WW and I didn’t point a finger at one of us and say this person is to blame for what’s happened, he’s trying to blame himself.

We assured him that this was not his fault. We were crystal clear on that. His first response was, “It’s happening all over again. What’s wrong with me?” I check in with him on an emotional level every day to see how he’s doing. If he keeps saying things like that, which he hasn’t, I’ll make sure the therapist sees him too for IC.


What do I do when I have moments where it seems like the pain and hurt are uncontrollable. How do I keep from absolutely losing it? So far these have only happened in moments of extreme stress, i.e. on Saturday, the mechanic failed to repair my vehicle properly for the 3rd time and I was 100 miles from his shop and had to wait 3 hours for his tow truck.


The happiest moments of my life are with her. Unfortunately, so are the saddest. Even with the revelation of 17 affairs and 10 years of deceit, she didn’t make a large enough Love Bank withdrawal to make me hate her. Don’t get me wrong, though. The withdrawal was pretty much all of her life’s savings.

Our last session with the therapist stripped us down to the raw basics. Our therapist is good. She (the therapist) got me to vent anger that I had been bottling and got me to do it in an atmosphere where there was zero tolerance for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts.

She forced us to look at one of the consequences of WW leaving the marriage. If WW decides to leave, that is her decision, but I simply can not walk away from my kids. Ultimately, there will be a mighty war concerning the children.

While reading LB on page 181-182, Dr. Harley talks about avoidance-avoidance conflicts. I feel this is where WW is right now. If she stays in the marriage, she has to deal with the pain of what has happened, going through recovery, trying to restore romantic love etc. If she leaves the marriage, she has to deal with the pain of me being downright ugly about me keeping our children. (As you can tell, our marriage is kind of backwards. We both have nurturing motherly instincts and losing our kids is simply not an option.)

I picture WW as having a scale in her mind where she’s adding beans to each side, weighing the emotional pain that each decision carries. I don’t feel as though she’s added the beans to the leaving side of the scale for the emotional pain she’ll have to endure for both dealing with what has happened and the prospect of losing her kids. Especially if the 14yo decides in favor of the adoption. I have expressed to WW my belief that we have to deal with this emotional trauma. Whether we do it together or apart is really up to her at this point.

Now that I have vented what was left of my frustration for the negative aspects, I feel I should mention what I think we’re doing right.

We’re not at 15 hours of undivided attention per week yet, but we’re getting there.

We’re having a blast being awesome recreational companions. Dancing last night didn’t turn out as planned. Who knew country western dance clubs weren’t open on Sundays where we live. I managed to recover and found us a smaller country place that was doing karaoke. I offered my suggestion, she agreed (especially because she loves to hear me sing. I almost made a career out of it, but decided I didn’t want to be away from my family like that.) which brings me to...

We’ve been implementing the Policy of Mutual Agreement. We make a list each night of what are reasonable expectations of things I should accomplish the following day while she’s at work. If we’re both not enthusiastic about one of the items, it gets scratched off and replaced and put on the next days list. As I do the item, I check it off. If I don’t complete it, I note why or how much of it I did. Which brings me to...

Radical honesty... I account for my day, and she pretty much accounts for hers, as much as she can with her job. It’s one of those “If I tell you I have to shoot you” jobs. I know I can call her at any time. Not only that, we agreed not to “sit” on things that we didn’t like. I say, “When you leave your clothes in the floor after you take them off, it makes me feel as though you don’t appreciate the time and effort I put into cleaning the house.” Initially, she was defensive, but the next time I looked, there were no clothes in the floor. I told her thank you, she smiled and said “You’re welcome.”

She says, “I don’t like when you hang up my jackets and zip them up. It takes me longer to get dressed.” I said, “OK” and quit zipping them.

So now we’re not letting silly stuff fester and we’re stopping other silly stuff from happening. I used to ask, “What would you like for dinner?” She’d reply with, “I don’t know”, “I don’t care”, or “Whatever.” Ultimately, this would lead to frustration and a rather dumb argument. Now, we sit down and plan out a menu and we get the kids input as well. If one of us isn’t enthusiastic about a food, then we don’t eat it. Basically, we’re including each other in as many decisions as we possibly can.

We’re getting better at meeting emotional needs and we just agreed to a test to try to avoid arguing and conflicts. If one of us feels threatened or provoked by the way a conversation is going, either one of us can call for a time out and we return to the conversation later.

She says she doesn’t want to be in this relationship anymore, but I’m seeing something completely different in many of her actions. I hugged her from behind this morning before she left for work and she grabbed my hands and pulled my arms around her.

Ok, I think I’ve spent enough time posting. I have a list waiting. Thanks again for being so supportive. 

Drexxell,

I think you have things headed in the right direction. There were a few points I wanted to comment on. In all it seems to me that you don't need a translator. You have this pretty well figured out.

You mentioned about telling your son of his origins.
I am sure she is right now. She is not even really committed to the marriage so she feels she can skate on this one. I side with you on this issue. However, I think given what is going on now this is not the time to discuss it. Oddly your oldest decision about adoption may carry a lot of weight with her and will offer you a very nice way of explaining things to your youngest. I guess if it were me, I believe this is a topic that should be addressed later. But, I do believe your son should know sooner than later.

There was a poster here several years ago, who found out her father was not her biofather when she was in her 30's. It hurt her terribly that this had been kept from her, and the person she was maddest at was her mother. She had children of her own by this time. Her relationship with her father actually intensified but she was still messed up and in some form of counseling for a few years.

If done right kids can adjust because they are given time to adjust before all of this becomes really really important, such as having children of their own.

You then said
This just breaks me heart. And you know "us" guys don't have hearts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, you two might really want to think about discussing with your counselor a strategy to let your oldest know what is going on at an "appropriate" level, so that he can realize this is NOT about him. He will likely be very mad at his mother for what she has done, but he will heal from that. He might not heal if your marriage breaks up with him knowing nothing. I will not occur to him that you two keeping secret from him the real issues is NOT about him. Man this is tough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You then asked
Speak with your counselor about this would be my suggestion. However, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging how deeply hurt you are especially to yourself. There is no way you won't have the triggers, and there is no way you will get through this without a few breakdowns. This is especially true while your W is still waffling about whether she wants to stay or run. You will hang in there I am sure, but internally the pain will be great. These feels fade I have been assured by those that have been in recovery for years. I think yours will as well.

It seems as if you have found a good counselor. I doubt she/he will be your IC counselor as well. At least for both of you. I have heard that they prefer to keep that separate.

You close with
I am sure she is very confused. She is deathly afraid of leaving, and yet what she has to face is soooo overwhelming. Her level of betrayal of you is enormous. But, to add to the complexity, you are responding in a way that she cannot understand or fathom. Would you want to be in her shoes? I sure would not.

But, there is something you really should bring up with your counselor at some point and that is the issue of respect. I am thinking of her respect for you. You two made a joint decision for you to be the stay at home parent. That's fine, but it is very very hard for people to remove all vestiges of societal bias with regard to how things should be. I worry that your W does not respect or appreciate what this takes for you to do. You are somewhat isolated as few men do what you do. You are the one that has to go to functions and explain "what you do."

Believe me this is not a put down. But, I fear that she does not respect what this has taken for you to do. Lack of respect is often on the steps to not valuing a marriage. I am not saying run out and get a job, but I am saying a serious discussion with the counselor present seems to be warrented at some point.

Just a few thoughts. You seem to be doing remarkably well. Hang on and kept your safety belt on the rollercoaster has many more ups and downs yet on this ride.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks again for your thoughts. Anyone else reading, feel free to add your input.

I just want to say that at this particular moment, I'm feeling rather elated. So far, I would have to classify this as one of the "good" days. She calls on her way home from work every day to let me know she's leaving so I can have dinner ready when she gets home. At the end of every call I tell her I love her. Today, she said it back.

Now then. I didn't make a fuss about it. Just conversation as normal. Maybe she meant to say it, maybe she didn't. I just closed the conversation and did a little dance after I hung up the phone.

As it relates to my son, the 6yo... On a basic level, WW agrees that telling him before he finds out from another source would definately be the better option of discovery for him. I believe it would be well worth having a counselor present when we do, though.

And for the 14yo, I certainly want to talk with the counselor about how he feels about what's happening and get her opinion about how much he should know. I don't think telling him about all of the affairs involved and about his brother is the right course, but I still don't think he has enough information to make an informed decision about the adoption.

While he may get beyond blaming himself, he's going to want to blame one of us and if he can't, he'll end up hating us both. I know he's angry because he slipped at dinner the other night and made a comment designed to hurt both WW and I. I just leaned over and put my arm around him and encouraged him to choose words that were not hurtful and to be more sensitive about the situation.

I will add, though, that he has made every effort to be incredibly sensitive about taking care of his household chores. And his homework! By no means am I suggesting an affair to get your teen to do his/her homework. Well, I must go prepare dinner.

One day at a time is all we're given.

Hello again everyone, and welcome to my roller coaster. You must be this tall to ride...

Last night went fine. She walks in the door to the smell of pan seared chicken and dinner almost done. We eat with the kids, then out for some light shopping. WW even commented that she had a really good time dancing the previous night and it "almost felt like normal".

This morning was different. She was showering and getting ready for work so I made the bed and made coffee then sat down with SAA to read a few pages while she finished up. She comes out of the bathroom, sees what I'm reading and lets out this huge, exasporated sigh. I look up from the book and ask what's troubling her and she says, "I feel like you're worshiping this guy (Dr. Harley)."

"Why does it upset you that I'm reading Dr. Harley's books?"

There was no response for a few minutes. I continued to wait to see if she was formulating a reply. (patience in sometimes rather difficult) Eventually I asked if she had heard my question. I thought it better to ask that than to assume she had and ask if she was going to answer me.

She said she had heard it but didn't think it was a valid question because she thought it was baited so she wasn't going to answer it. I apologized and told her I didn't mean to offer a baited question. I let her know that if she had told me how she felt about the question when I asked it, I would have rephrased it. And I did. I said, "If something is bothering you about me reading Dr. Harley's books, would you please tell me what it is?".

Then came the, "You've never even talked to this guy." and "You don't know his credentials, only what he's said." and "He's just an author trying to sell books." and also "I'm feeling pressured to read 6 or 4 books a week. In order for me to catch up with you, I would have to read that many."

I had solid factual replies to each statement and put them in a way that was informative and respectful, but that still didn't resolve what was troubling her. Eventually, we got to the root of what was going on. I had ordered books by the same author and didn't appear to be getting other opinions on the matter.

I have only completed 2 of Dr. Harley's books, so her claim of reading so many books a week is exagerated. Other than that, she's a faster reader than I am and reads 2 to 4 romance novels a week.

"Ok, sweetheart. Do you have a book or author in mind that you would like me to read?"

"I don't know."

Bottom line turned out being, she had bought a book for me to read a few years ago but I never read it. Now it all started making sense.

I explained that when I spoke with her about ordering Dr. Harley's books, we were in agreement about it and we both committed to reading them. When she bought this book a few years ago, she did it on her own without asking me if I wanted to read it. At the time, I really had no motivation to read it and honestly had forgotten it was in the bookshelf.

So I asked what I could do to make her feel not so bothered about me reading Dr. Harley's books. She said if I read the book she bought me she would feel better. So, I asked her if she could remember the name of the book and where it was.

I have the book with me now. I haven't read it yet so I'll refrain from mentioning the name or the author until I have formulated an opinion. I will say, however, that the spine of the book isn't cracked and the book is still in new condition. Tells me she hasn't read it either. I don't think it's so much that she wants me to read this specific book as perhaps she didn't feel enough involvement in selecting the books that we ordered.

So, is all this babble? An intentional regression from the good feelings of the last two days? Or is she genuinely upset that I didn't read her book?

Ah Drexxell,

There is an old saying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Read the book and then leave it out and around as you read Harley's books. What she has not figured out yet, is that you reading these books is for YOU. You seem to agree with Harley's approach to things and therefore you are more likely to follow the approach. She may need to find her OWN approach to rebuilding a marriage.

I can assure you there are many fine books out there, but few as pragmatic as Harley's in my mind. But, one thing most all of these books have in common is an attempt to help YOU and your marriage. So let her choose her own books. The message will be the same just the procedures will differ.

God Bless,

JL

I don't have any problem at all reading whatever book she thinks will help. If there is even one thing of value in the pages it is a worthy read. It turns out she did read it several years ago, although I don't recall seeing her with this book. She says it might be worth re-reading.

I've never been violent and confrontation doesn't do anything for me. WW isn't violent either, but she could confront a brick wall about why it wasn't a cobblestone walk way instead.

I was really kind of curious about her reaction though because the last two days had been pretty good and we didn't go to bed last night on a sour note. Maybe she was just cranky. She's never been a morning person.

We've been e-mailing back and forth most of the afternoon though planning out our evening. Looks like fun time is going to be video games. LOL We enjoy it so what the heck?!

I'm glad I cam come on here and post. I get a lot of strength from this board. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks

Ok, so my next question. We have this counseling session coming up in a couple of days. The counselor has said that WW and I have to be completely honest with one another about how we feel about our R and if we are willing to work at it. WW is going to bring up her feelings that she doesn't want to be in R and doesn't love me and then bring up my reactions to her feelings with the counselor.

Basically, my reactions are, I don't believe what WW is telling me. I can accept that she's not in love with me. I mean, that's obvious considering what's going on. What's also obvious is that she hasn't left and she's not trying to kick me out, we've created a more unified front with our kids than we've ever had before and we're having a good time spending time together.

I guess I'm just scared of what the counselor might say. She's already said she doesn't want to give hope for one spouse where there is none, thus why she wants total honesty from us to each other. I'm scared that we get into the counselor's office and WW says she wants out of R and wants a D etc and the counselor backs her up. I don't want to psych myself out over this, but I want to be prepared too. Advice?

Drexxell,

Tell the counselor the truth about your feelings for your W, your hopes for the future and your willingness to address whatever issues are there. I think you stating "the obvious" that you feel she really doesn't want to leave because she has not, will bring up your W's defenses. Don't give her a target.

Let her come to the realization emotionally that her actions are showing. She is NOT sure she wants to leave, but if you rub her nose in it, she just might force it out of spite.

Just my opinion, I hope others respond. You could talk with the counselor ahead of time, but again don't put the counselor or you W in a corner. People need to feel they have options.

Sorry I could not be of more help.

God Bless,

JL

JL,


Point made and well taken. My objective is not to LB, especially in the counselors office. But this counselor is good and maybe she's got something up her sleeve that I don't see yet.

Our first visit with the counselor, she was asking WW and I questions... the kind of questions that push buttons, you know... questions that got WW and I defending one another against the questions. The counselor seemed pleased at the end of the session and told us, "I can see a real friendship there. I heard you defend her when I asked a, b, c, and I heard you defend him when I asked x, y, z."

WW and I kinda looked at each other like "Ummm, what just happened?" It was an eye opener for sure.

I would love to hear others comments on this as well.

So, we get to the counselor last night. Awesome session, BTW. We get into things and WW doesn't bring up any of the stuff I was so afraid of. The counselor said we weren't the same couple that came into her office 3 weeks ago.

I think I have several sources to thank for that. Praying, for me, has helped. Having a great counselor helps. Devouring books has helped. Being on this board has helped too. I'll give the majority of the credit to WW and I though. I believe that's where it belongs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm calling later today to set up IC for me. WW has to get her own referal thing for insurance so that's on her to do. I've decided it's going to be a good day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

>I've decided it's going to be a good day.

Then you're more than halfway there to HAVING a good day!

I hope your day is rockin'!

- Kimmy

I don't get around to checking MB on the weekends cause I'm spending most of my time with WW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All in all, the week had more positive notes than negative ones. The drive to get the car on Saturday was uneventful. WW and I were supposed to go dancing after I got back Sat night. I dunno what it was, but I was tired with a headache, had driven for 15 hours and emotionally unprepared for any serious R talk.

It turned into a big blow up that lasted about an hour and a half. Situation resolved with new and renewed committments to one another. No sneak attacks, no ambushes, make sure the other is emotionally prepared for conversation prior to getting into it. Not going to dredge into all the details, but we agreed that the end result was one step back and two steps forward. We also agreed to strive to omit the one step back in the future.

WW says to me afterward, "We can't get through this without the occasional arguement." Is that a committment to getting through this without actually saying "I commit to getting through this."?

We ended up going out Sunday night, which is darn near impossible in SC. This is the Bible belt, you know. We had an absolute blast even though we got all dolled up to go out, get to the bar and find out they're closing early to repair the floors! Ugh!

It was still fun. We danced, she stepped on my feet, we laughed. Kinda like 12 years ago. Then, as I was driving us home, she reached out and held my hand. Small steps. Small small steps. A long way to go yet!

I see a definate hope. We had our MC session on Thursday. It went rather well. The counselor asked if we wanted to schedule for the next week and before I could respond, WW was agreeing to another session. I hope I'm not getting all pumped up just to get deflated later on.

Thank you all for your support so far. I look forward to drawing more from your experiences later. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think all this sounds very positive especially the "get through this" and her reaching for your hand. Just keep on keeping on!

DS14 just got home from school. He walks in the office, sits down in the chair next to me and says, "I've decided. I want to be adopted."

<doing happy dance> Oh, it's a good day. Good day indeed. Even hearing him explain it in 14yo jargonese made sense. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow, it's great to hear about the happy dance. Congrats!

Drexxell,

That is great news. You should feel very proud, and I think you son is pretty happy to have reached this decision as well.

He has had a tough time with all of this, and you being willing to step up and be his OFFICIAL Dad, is pretty cool.

God Bless,

JL

JL, I'm incredibly proud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow! I read this whole post and all the thoughts and advice are so awesome!!!

As a WW or FWW (trying to figure out what would be the right current classification), there's a lot that I resonate with in your wife, Drexell. Primarily, her hot/cold, hot/cold cycle regarding her outlook on the marriage. I think a big part of that cycle lies in her wanting to accept your forgiveness, optimistically wanting to renew your marriage and your love together, while on the other side, she is completely aware of how undeserving she is of your love.... for me, when I realize how undeserving I am of my husband's love, my immediate physical response is to tense up, and then to reject first, before I can be rejected.I much rather "choose" to not be in a relationship I can't bear to lose, than to face the horrible rejection and overwhelming heartbreak of its loss.

I don't think it's a rational response, but an emotional response, rooted in fear. It might be some sort of attempt to "control" one's life, to control what many times may seem uncontrollable (because of one's actions).

I often get frustrated with myself for why things can be so hard for me, why I do stupid, foolish things, and then everything gets so out of control... it is really hard for me to be with my husband, because he is so amazingly good to me. It is hard for me to accept love because when I was younger I was rejected so much by my own parents. I wonder if healthier people can accept love and forgiveness easier? Or if they feel others should at least give them a chance to make things better?

I wonder if your WW is like me and she feels she does not deserve any one's love, especially yours.... so she denies her own need for you in her life, your forgiveness, your companionship, as a reactionary response prompted by extreme fear of worthlessness, or maybe that her worth lies only in her performance, and her performance has been bad, so how could you possibly love her unless you're mad? (As opposed to loving her for the who she is, as a spirit, for her uniqueness, etc. basically the way God looks at us...)

Wierdly, reading this post has given me a lot of hope, for thinking that maybe my husband does want to forgive me, that maybe he does still love me and want to be with me...

Toosad,

Has it crossed you mind that the decision to love and forgive you is NOT yours? It is your H's. Whether you feel deserving or not, is not the issue. HE feels you are deserving, it is his call. You are really disrespecting him by assuming your feelings on this manner are the deciding ones.

That sounds harsh doesn't it? But, the truth of this is really rather simple. You have value to yourself. You have internal morals, and values, strengths and weaknesses. It is your job to use your strengths and address your weaknesses. It is your job to guard your boundaries (often these are morals as well). It is even your job to decide if YOU will forgive your H, yes that is right. You are holding out because you have NOT forgiven him for not being like the other people in your life. So you treat him like them.

It is his job to decide if he will forgive you. It is his job to decide if you are of value in his life. He has made that decision apparently. He values you in his life.

Further, I will use your words to describe how he feels and felt. You said
You may not realize this but your H felt this. He was rejected big time and do you know who he blames more than anyone? Himself. Read your quote and ask him if he has not felt rejected and worthless and that his performance as an H was poor.

The only issue is do you love your H? I don't mean "feel in love", do you love him as you vowed to do. Love is a verb not a feeling. If you do or can love your H, you are failing him big time in your fear. Further, you are trying to assume decisions that are his...your worth to him. He has apparently decided. It really is that simple.

What you are confusing is that it is not easy, but it is simple. Don't make this complicated.

I think your post will help Drexxell alot, but I hope you take another look at your post and realize you are trying to make decisions that are not yours to make and frankly decisions that your H has already made.
It might surprise you what you come to realize. Your parents decisions were theirs as well, not yours. They have clearly have had a profound affect on you, but remember this your H is NOT either of your parents. You should not blame him for their mistakes.

Please think about this. I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

hmmmmm....

I'm going to need some time to really process this... It makes sense, it is not my decision to make, but my husband's, if he can forgive me....Wow.

I asked him if he felt rejected and worthless, if he felt horrible about failing me as a husband. He said no. I asked him if he ever felt like that, maybe right after I told him, and he said yes. But I think he doesn't feel that way because he knows I am infatuated with him. I say "infatuated", but what I really mean is, I just love who he is. I see now and I think more and more that he is really reaching out to me. I still can't understand why he'd do that, though.

I know he feels really hurt that I cheated on him. But he is being really good about not being codependent and blaming himself for my choices. He acknowledges that he hasn't been there for me, hasn't met some of my needs, but I don't think he has ever thought he pushed me to the affair. Which is strange, for me, because I was at such a point of desperation, and I don't think he really understood how badly. I still wonder now if he fully comprehends how he contributed to our problems.

I wonder, though, if he bottles his emotions or denies them? He is the only child of two alcoholics.

I have built him up endlessly for a long time now, way before I ever told him about the affair, and even before I was able to end the emotional affair. It wasn't very hard to do, for me.... I think my husband is amazing, I always have, he is shockingly talented and good hearted, that wasn't really ever the issue. He is also very physically appealing to me.

The issue was that he didn't care to be emotionally available for me, to be my friend. That's why I took his actions to mean that maybe I'm just a lame duck or something, because if I think he's as awesome as I do, it wasn't me rejecting him (or so it seemed to me at the time). Of course, now I see that having an affair is a direct rejection of a spouse.

(I understood this concept at the time of the affair, but I think I chose to ignore my own better judgment, and I felt justified (ugh, I hate the word) in my thinking, because he was so unavailable to me. (I also suspected he was having an affair, too. Turns out, although he was shooting artistic nudes (photography), and staying out all night to play poker, he was not, as I suspected, having an external relationship)). (I asked him to not do either of those activities, however... I explained how much the hurt me, but he was resistant at the time).

I think the problem was our lovebusters. We had a lot of them going on, nearly daily. We couldn't have one day without serious conflict. After I ended the physical affair, I started completely cutting out the bad behavior on my part. I stopped participating in unhealthy conflict handling. I stopped yelling. I called him on "lovebuster" behavior, although I hadn't found this site at the time. After my physical affair ended (it was mutual on both our parts), maybe a month and a half later my husband moved out of state for business. We lived separately for half a year, but it was not a "separation" separation. He visited every couple weekends, and we had a lot of fun together. (He didn't know anything of the affair at the time. I saw the other guy only two or three times at Starbucks, and nothing happened. We were both focusing on our marriages and were dead set against anything going on between us again). I focused on my studies and started seeing an IC. I went for just a little less than half a year. My affair was the main topic, and then into my rejection issues. I missed my husband awfully bad. Most weekends, I just stayed home, studied. I didn't eat out or go to movies. I exercised a lot, read a lot, but my sleep suffered. I couldn't sleep the night through at all. I woke up every morning about 2 -4 am, and just thought about the guy I had the affair with. I couldn't get him out of my mind. I had dreams about him that wouldn't go away. I knew I had completely messed myself up. When my dreams change, there's a problem. I decided to permanantly relocate our house to my husband's location at Christmas, and quit school even though my schooling was the one thing I have looked forward to my whole life. My husband didn't want to leave the area permanantly, but it was as if I knew I just had to get out of there, because we would fall apart otherwise.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I am certainly in a more optimistic mood than normal. He came home and brought a gourmet meal of dungenness crab portabella and portabella stuffed wild Salmon. He also bought rasberries strictly for me as dessert, and he knows how much I like them. We vegged and watch a movie together, and I cooked a yummy califlower/broccoli/mushroom dish to round out our fare. He has a huge need for domestic support. He was an only child completely pampered by his mother. I used to resent the fact that he wanted me to take care of him in this way, but what can I do? I mean, if it is an emotional need for him? It doesn't make any sense to me, but if he comes home and the house is messy, he doesn't feel loved. I don't get it at all, but I suppose I don't need to understand it.

But I still want to grasp completely what you are saying. i wish I could stop being so codependent. I wish I didn't always feel responsible for everyone. I don't know how to do this exactly, I have Cloud and Townsend's boundaries books, they have helped me a lot, but it seems impossible sometimes to figure it all out.

Hello Toosad, Welcome to my world. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I thought my wife could have written this. One of the things she said to me was that she didn't want to dedicate a year of her life to therapy just to find out that I was done and that I couldn't forgive her. This is a very familiar tune to me.


If I didn't know that my wife was in bed with me when you wrote this, I would be strangely curious. Maybe she had an 'out of body' experience. Seriously, she has commented several times about how she feels she has no control over her life. Now, I don't make a decision without her enthusiastic agreement. This control thing has gotten better, but it's still there.


This sounds like what our MC told us and WW agreed with it.
But it's not just my love and forgiveness she doesn't feel worthy of. She's kinda given God the cold shoulder too. I think she'll invite Christ back into her life when she's ready though.

Neither of my parents drank, but I grew up as the oldest child in an abusive house. Chances are your hubby is bottling. I think he should see an IC for even just a few sessions to address the possibility that he was traumatized by having alcoholic parents. The way he grew up is certainly effecting the relationships he has in the rest of his life.

A tidy house is likely important to him because his house as a kid was always a wreck. And I think you do need to understand his emotional needs in order to fill them properly. If you can't grasp why keeping the house clean makes him happy, then one day, you're doing laundry and talking to yourself (cause we all do it) and you start saying things like, "Why does this even matter to him anyways? This is so dumb, him expecting a clean house like this. Shouldn't it be more important to him that he just love me?" And now what's happening is that he's losing love units in your love bank and he's not even aware of it. I encourage you to find out why having a clean house is so important to him.

Toosad, I look forward to following your story as you progress to compare the similarities. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JL, your words, once again, are wise. They tend to keep me rooted and realistic. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For some men there is a need for what I would call domestic support. The husband wants to know the houshold is taken care of and when he comes home his world is at peace, in order and he can relax. It's more typical when there is a SAHM, but some expect it of a working mother, which I have never understood. You can't work 8 hours in a day, and then have the house spotless too. There is just no way. It's tough enough having to keep kids in the house and trying to keep it picked up and neat.

I'm not asking you to hate her

but

What is your bottom line? Have you thought about that?

Susan,

I'm not sure I understand your "bottom line" question. But if you're asking me what she would have to do to make me hands down get up and leave, I'm not sure. I can say she hasn't done it yet.

If I found out my wife had a substance abuse problem I wouldn't turn my back on her. The number of affairs leads me to believe there's an addiction here. Maybe there isn't. We don't know yet.

If I misunderstood your question, please let me know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Drexell, beware, this is a LONG post!!!!! Long!


I have often asked myself why I feel so much (not as much as it used to be) that I have no control over my life. There are the obvious things, such as me taking out debt to finance the start of my husband's business, and feeling strapped and trappped into focusing on his business instead of my dreams. My husband can't see why I would complain if it was my "choice" to help, along with any other "choices" I make.

I think a big part of it is because I couldn't and still sometimes struggle with telling him the truth of what I really want. I have strong people pleaser tendencies, so what I used to do nearly all the time was answer that I do want to do stuff when I don't, that I'm excited about going to a certain movie he wants to see when I'm not. Mainly, I followed my logic and it's because I want him to be happy with me, so I try to convince myself that "Yeah, I'm excited about that!" when I'm really not.

But the wierd thing is that I didn't know myself for a really long time. I'd go along with something, or even think I wanted something, only to find myself frustrated later. I realized with lots of introspection that deep down, I didn't think my husband would change plans or do things differently simply because I liked them better a certain way. I felt that I didn't deserve to have my feelings and preferences considered. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> For example, my husband always wanted to see late movies out, 10 or 11 pm movies. Deep down, and way before we ever got married, I liked and wished secretly that I could be sleeping every night at 10 or 11 pm. But I went along with his preference for years, until just recently this year I started sharing that I didn't want to see movies starting after 9 (now we're watching movies starting at 8 or 7 pm).

But that has made a huge difference, and all I had to do was give my husband the chance to meet my needs.

Something that my husband has done too is that he doesn't pressure me to do what he wants any more. He is a natural sales person, so it is his nature to try to sell my on an idea. But now, when he asks about a movie, or about anything else, he always says, "but we can go home too, if that's what you want, if you want to go to bed earlier. Or we can go to coffee...) which, that last part about the coffee, is really big, because I used to always want to go to coffee, and he never wanted to go. So he gives me outs in case my people pleaser speaks up instead of my real voice.

[color:"blue"] [/color] I would ask your WW what sorts of things she feels she has no control over. Tell her that you're sorry she feels like that and you care about her and don't want her to feel like that. (this is important, she might feel like you don't care that she feels like that). If she could paint an ideal world, what would things be like? Would she be doing things differently, a different job, a different city, would you be doing things differently as her husband? If there was something ideally that you could do differently, regardless of whether you can actually do it in real life what would it be? (You want to get her talking to reveal some of her deepest heart needs and dreams if possible). [color:"black"] [/color] I ask this because maybe there are certain things you need to move towards together as a couple. For me, I needed to make a career change. I am still far away from the realization of that, because I want to be a university professor and that means I have to complete my Phd. But that is something we are trying to earnestly move towards, my husband thinks financially and logistically everything will work out so I can go back to school in Jan 2007. (It is still hard for me to believe my husband cares at all about my occupational dreams. In the back of my mind, I keep thinking he much rather have me stay in business, since I can bring in a lot of money).

Your WW may feel that often there is only one choice she can make, because all the others are bad, or worse. But those other choices are still real, solid, potential choices, and if she chooses the best one, that is something she can feel good about, instead of feeling that was the only real choice. She can actually feel good about making the best choice because it benefits her family or it moves her closer to something she wants in her life. But she has to decide what she wants her life to look like. This requires living life in reality and not in fantasy. All the imaginary worlds, with all things being perfect, is not reality, and not attainable. I had to realize this. I had to grieve the loss of the "unattainable perfect" and instead embrace reality and choose to make that the best it could be. Life lived in reality can be a lot more fulfilling than life lived in fantasy. For me, I had to banish fantasy out of my mind. Without knowing, part of what may be complicating it for your WW is the romance books she reads. They keep you trapped longing for something unattainable, while neglecting the good that might exist in your life in reality. (I don't know how I'd bring this up. You don't want her to feel like you are trying to control her, especially since how she relates to the concept of "control" is that she has none in her life.)

Something really wierd too, that I'll add in here.... after I started my affair, I realized shockingly that I finally felt I had control over something, that the affair was MY choice, not my husband's, and I could finally make up my own mind about something. I know it is warped, but that is how I thought. So this "control" issue is something that definitely needs working on, because I think that if your WW owned the actual real power she does have in her own life, she may not feel subconsciouly motivated and driven to an affair to have something she is in "control" over. I don't know if this applies at all. That's why I think Dr. Harley's "Joint Agreement" policy is so cool, it addresses the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness of having any power over one's own life.

With the housecleaing bit, that was a point of contention for a long time. My parents used to make me and my sister clean the house, saying they had daughters to clean up after them, while my brother got off scott free. Since he always got the special treatment, I felt like I mattered less because i was a girl. And with my husband wanting me to clean the house, or being mad with me if it wasn't clean, I ended up feeling more like his maid than his wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I told him about how I felt, but he didn't understand for a long time. Mainly, it was the "obligation" part, where he acted like it was my duty and job to do it, and to me instead of feeling like I could choose to do it out of love, I was forced to do out of fear of the loss of his love. Does that make sense? I couldn't give it to him as a gift of love, because my sense of being loved and accepted was threatened if I didn't, so I ended up doing it out of obligation, which is horrible..

I think he feels loved when I provide domestic support because his mom used to clean up after him. She was always so happy to do it. She showered all her attention on him. But honestly, it's hard to compete with his mom.


I wonder if part of your WW view on God has anything to do with her view of her father? I've heard it said that many times people think of God in the same way they relate to their father.

It was liberating for me after my abortion when I realized that God loved me regardless, that my sins, even the after abortion, were the reason he sent Jesus as our sacrifice to wipe our slate clean. He had actually made a plan that included deliverance for MY sins too, not just everyone else's. It was a hugely personal revelation to me. That he could love me like that, and still be so excited about me, as his child, that he didn't frown on me disapprovingly but that he was there waiting for me to come to him, to bring my needs and brokenness to him. God never expected me to be perfect, I was the one expecting perfection from myself, and then rejecting myself when I didn't reach it.


I've suggested to him to see an IC for a year or two now... I suggested taht maybe he was bottling up stuff that he didn't know was there. He has whole years of his childhood he just doesn't remember. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The thing is, he's this happy-go-lucky person who seems to forgive easily, and he doesn't think he has anything that is something that needs working on.
Strangely, that is one of the things I liked about the guy I had the affair with. He had a series of emotions, eagerness, tension, frustration, distraught, excitement... aside from just happy and sad, or happy and mad. I think my husband takes any emotion between happy and mad and tries to make it into happy, or else it doesn't exist. Life can get bland when the only emotions shared are happy and mad.

I am trying to encourage him to share his emotions with me, I am trying to not express disatisfaction if an emotion he has is displeasing to me, but instead to participate and care about what is going on in his experience. Basically, I don't want to send him the signal that he always has to be "happy" for me, but that he can be where he's at, and that's fine. I want him to know that with me, he doesn't have to live in fantasy, or maintain fantasy. He can live in reality and he can expect safety in that with me. (I used to frustrated if he wasn't happy when he was with me. I felt it reflected on me. I think we both did a lot of manipulating of our emotions for the other, instead of a "policy of honesty".

The struggle is that the problems that have torn up our marriage have been long persistent and ingrained into the fabric of our marriage. Even though slowly things have changed and are still changing, it will take a long time for me to earnestly beleive that they are different. I have huge moments of despair because I don't know if I can make it at times. Sometimes my despair lasts for days. Sometimes I wish I could just turn off my emotions. I am a big self-help type of person, but I had to learn to back off and not try to help my husband, not tell him what to do. I think mainly I get lost in hopeless desperation. I am still in withdrawal from that other guy. I wish I wasn't. It's that "fantasy" side of me that wants to believe things could be better with him. But I know it's bs in my mind, I know in reality he would never be anything like my husband.


I practice these things and struggle with some of these things every day. I don't have them down pat. I think the reason I am aware of these things that I have talked about is because they are such issues for me. They are on my awareness because of how often they raise their ulgy heads. I have to counter false thinking or unhealthy thinking every day, especially fantasy thinking. I hope maybe it'll get easier at some point.


Sorry I ramble on so long and am so long-winded. Please feel free to add whatever you think may be helpful, other people too. Thanks.

I'm not on top of my game right now and I considered not replying until tomorrow so if I'm confusing or anything, it's just the roller coaster. I'm kind of at a "stall", if you see what I'm saying. Imagine riding a roller coaster in the dark or with your eyes closed and momentum all but stops. That's a "stall". WW just called a few minutes ago and said she was on her way home from work. I thought she was working late, but she said she went out for a long walk and did some thinking. Said we would talk. Then she asked me if we were still going out tonight! That explains the stall. LOL


Are you familiar with the Giver and the Taker? Your Giver has locked your Taker in a dark closet. You need to make a conscious decision to get your Taker out of there before it busts it's way out and creates some serious Love Busters.

{quote}But that has made a huge difference, and all I had to do was give my husband the chance to meet my needs.[/quote]

I wish I could post that on every thread here!


I have no doubt that the reason she feels a lack of control and in turn has resentment toward me for it is because for so long she had to hide what she had done. The choice to tell me was so bad to her that it wasn't a real choice. Then another affair, another thing to hide, more guilt, the choice is even worse. Another affair for the euphoria. It's short lived. More guilt. The choice isn't even there any longer. I sincerely believe that each affair was to get a high to overcome the increasing guilt.

I asked her what aspects of her life she felt I controlled. Guess what they were? Things that she had agreed to because she thought she had to in order to make me happy. Sound familiar? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Proving my point that if you keep your Taker locked in a closet, it'll bust out. But what you may not know is that when you're not looking, your Taker is letting him/herself out of the closet to get what he/she needs, then putting on a dog and pony show when you're looking.


She was raised going to church. When we're in town, we always go to church with her parents. Her father isn't a Bible thumper, but he's active in the church, involved in the choir, etc. Her parents were disappointed with her when they found out, but they made it very clear that they loved her. What they also made very clear was they loved and support both of us equally. In many ways, I'm the son they didn't get to have. (They have 3 daughters) I accept that because my parents are so screwy I'm still looking for the right support group. I have a much better relationship with her parents than I do my own.

One thing her parents told her was that they would be even more disappointed if she didn't put forth the effort to try to resolve our issues. It's an interesting relationship that we all have that I'm sure my IC would be able to write a book about.


My brother and I are like this. Both of us with massive childhood trauma and laid back as can be. We never learned how to deal with "red" emotions, the ones that cause pain or anger or jealousy. It all gets bottled. My brother is still convinced that it's genetic and has resolved not to have children so as to not put them through what he went through or prevent them from causing damage to other people.


I'll bet every thing you can put on a list in this category is a habit. Habits can be changed, and sometimes rather quickly. I.E. 2 days after discovery, I quit smoking cold turkey. Had been trying to quit for years. It was a big love buster. I knew it. I didn't care. It made me happy and I knew my wife hated it. Darndest thing though. Some of WWs As were with smokers.

Well, she's home so I'm gonna get going. I'll post more tomorrow. See ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TooSad,

You have said a few things that many people here forget, especially when they first come here. Probably the biggest is
POWER, it is something that both WS and BS have lots of and they don't realize it.

You discussion of control is interesting and mildly amusing only because the person controlling you is YOU. You are not the first to complain that they feel controled in a marriage and it is usually the WS. However, most eventually see that they were controlling themselves.

Your fears controlled you not your H. You mentioned earlier about worth and why your H could love you after all of this. It is very clear from what you have said about him he always loved you and does now. It is clear you are aware that he will receive your requests and suggestions with an open heart and mind.

As you stated you just need to tell him. It has been my observation from being here awhile that now more than ever you need to talk to him about what YOU want.

You also do need to see if he will consider counseling given what you have said about him. It would seem his way of coping with his family was to stay out of the way, and be happy, ie, don't make any waves. That is not healthy as you have suggested.

You also said
You do see how messed up this is don't you? One of the things you will notice if you stay around her for awhile is that your perspective on things will change. The quote above is an example. It takes time.

You also said a few other things I would like to comment on.

OK a comment about us guys. We don't have NEEDS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, we don't have feelings, and give me a break about emotions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That water you see coming out of my eyes is from sweat my dear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No guys have egos, not feelings. And we sure as heck don't NEED anything or any body got that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My point is that you need to find alternative ways to get under his defenses. Men do not talk about things as women do. In fact, we don't often consider talking as a strategy to solve problems. We will ask for the information we think we need, but to just talk and talk and talk....NOPE. It is also why us guys have a hard time helping women. ARE YOU LISTENING Drexxell???? When women often talk of problems or issues, it is the talking they want and need, NOT A SOLUTION. Most of us guys, and you bet I am right there too, hear of a problem and want to solve it. We want our spouses happy and we think solving the problem will do the trick. WRONG. Listening to them discuss and ruminate about the problem will do the trick, not solving the darned thing.

Don't ask me it makes no sense to me, but hey. I am just learning you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously Toosad, your H has an additional problem very likely and that he does not want to make waves, so he tries to be what he thinks people want. He is a conflict avoider. What some proof? Look at the next line of your statement.



You wanted him happy, he was happy. So you see you both were doing pretty much the same thing...wanting your partner to be HAPPY with them.

I think it is an excellent idea to get him to open up, and the POJA is great, but focus on getting under his defenses. You know he is a guy, AND you know his childhood very likely affected him with regard to conflict and making waves. You know alot really, the trick is to use your knowledge to rebuild your marriage.

Finally you said something that Drexxell needs to consider as well. You said


First you are still in withdrawal, and you need to let your H know that you are AND more importantly you are aware of it. You do realize that the use of term withdrawal is more than metaphorical don't you. Your brain has changed and emits hormones that make you happy when you think of OM. It will take awhile for your brain to change its responses. That is where perspective becomes huge. There really is a chemicall aspect to what you are going through and it takes a month or two for it to go away.

Toosad, you can help your H. Not by telling him what to do, but by talking with him. Discussing things. Discussing different ways to address an issue. Where both of you see how many solutions you can come up with, and then discuss the pluses and minus of each from your point of view. Your self-help knowledge will come in during this phase as you can add insight that perhaps he might miss. This way you are NOT educating him (something that oddly is most often the problem with the BS trying to rebuild), but you are allowing him access to your knowledge.

This has a corrolary and that his your need to voice you wants. Let's take the movie issue. When he suggests a movie, and perhaps it is a late movie. The response should be when are the times it is showing? Then ask: What are the advantages of going mid afternoon, early evening, late? What are the disadvantages?

You deflect your own unwillingness to make him unhappy by asking questions and then discussing the answers. This is actually part of the POJA which is after all simply a negotiating tool. Another way for either of you to discuss sensitive issues is to find a topic that is similar in the paper, on the news, Dr. Phil, whatever, and discuss it. Now it is a 3rd party thing with no emotional involvement on either of your parts. But, this let's you gather and give information without either of you feeling attacked.

So much to say Toosad. Drexxell, I hope you don't mind the thread jack, but I felt that some of what I have said might help you as well.

God Bless,

JL

I wish I realized this before my affair. I felt so horribly powerless then. I didn't understand that I could do whatever I wanted. I could have said, "Actually, I think I'm going to skip the movie tonight and hit the sheets..." or "I'll clean up the kitchen tomorrow morning, but feel free to put your dish in the sink". Yeah, I was totally people pleasing and being dishonest about my own wishes. It's strange how I felt I didn't even have power over my own time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


This is so true. I was living completely in fear. I felt I had to be "perfect" for him to be happy with me. I didn't think I could just be me and have my preferences and that would be ok. The funny thing is that while I thought and maybe he wanted me to do things a certain way, I took that same miserable attitude with him (that he should do things a certain way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We were walking around each other on glass. How awful.



This is still very hard for me.


Yeah, my Husband goes out of his way to avoid making waves. I've been encouraging him to be honest with himself and me about what he wants. I've told him, "Please don't lie to me about you want, or if you're upset. Please tell me the truth. I'll honor it, and it's important to me that you can speak honestly to me." I've also told him that he doesn't have to pretend to be ok with something if he's not ok. When he's been mad at me for being mad at him, I've told him, "I'm angry right now about this. I'm entitled to having my own emotions. If I'm upset, then I'm upset. Let me feel what I feel."

And maybe a little more about how I'm a human, and humans have emotions, so I'm not going to lie to myself about how I feel, and that maybe I'm uspet now, but I'll process through it, work it out, and then I'll be fine. I think he feels responsible for my emotions, which I've told him he's not, and sometimes I might feel upset about something when he didn't do anything wrong, but I still have to process my frustration and work through it, and that he shouldn't always assume he's done something wrong.

This is big for me, I have only learned to do this in the past year, and strangely I think as a result of the affair. I cheated with a guy who called me on the fact that I wasn't honest with myself, and sometimes with him as a result. As horrid as it sounds, I feel that part of what I learned in the affair saved our marriage, because it was headed down the tubes, and my husband and I weren't treating each other very well.


I completely agree.



Sure, but how do I do that? How do I get under his defenses? Is there a secret to it? My husband is very closed. I'm sure it involves being both really perceptive and tactful, but what does it look like?


I have thought of telling him, but don't you think it'd only hurt him more?


hmmmmm.... certainly changes the perception. I wasn't thinking of it like that...


I am going to try. I know part of it will come from living healthy myself, being transparent, and sharing my own experiences with him. Sharing just to share, not with the intention of influencing. People always seem to know when someone is trying to influence them.


Awesome suggestions. Really a very good method or strategy. I am going to be thinking this over....

Drexell,

I read a little about the Giver and Taker. I don't really understand it completely. I mean, the concept is simple enough, but other than knowing that I gave and gave, and then with the affair, I took and took, and was not as generous after the affair, I'm not certain exactly how to balance them. I have a hard time expressing my needs or asking for help.


Wow.... yes, I suppose that's what I call the "bi*** coming out...

My husband used to manipulate me with his words. I called him on it, but he never agreed with me. If he'd ask me to serve him up icecream while we were in the middle of watching a movie at home together, and I was tired and didn't have energy to do it, or if I got myself a glass of milk and he wanted me to serve him up some other dish and heat it up, he'd call me "selfish" if I didn't want to. It really hurt, especially since I've always tried to be really generous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I told him it wasn't selfishness, that I had a choice whether not I wanted to serve him out of love, and if I chose not to, it wasn't because I didn't love him, but because maybe at that moment I just didn't want to. The thing is, I just ended up feeling obligated all the time. I felt a "no" wasn't a real answer I was entitled to.



Even if her parents really love her, that doesn't mean that possibly they weren't hurtful with some of their parenting. I suppose the problem is that humans are fallible. For example, always giving a child positive reward when they do something wrong can teach the child (subconsiously) that they are only acceptable when they do well in school, or when they are obedient. A lot of well-meaning parents fail to remember in their parenting techniques to build up their children even while disciplining them, letting them know that the fact they have done something wrong doesn't change the parent's amount of love or acceptance of them.

Certainly, in my own parenting as a child, I didn't feel my parents wanted me in their presence if I did something wrong. They would get mad at me and I knew that I'd do better to leave the room till their anger boiled over. It is wierd, in that light, to imagine a God who actually does want to be with me, even in the very moment of my sin. That is how some people look at God, that they can not be wanted or loved by him until they are not "sinning", which if you think about is absurd, because to be sinless would either be to not be human, or to be human after death in heaven, where there will be no sin.


hmmmm.... you may not agree with me in my analysis of this, and that's fine, I might not be anywhere close in my thinking, but without meaning any harm, her parents have just reinforced the people-pleaser tendency in her. They are trying to motivate her by telling her they will be disappointed if she doesn't work harder on the relationship. That is a control mechanism.

It might have been better if they said something like:

"Darling, we are concerned about what's happening in your marriage. We want to challenge you to honor your vows before God, to not give up on the miraculous work he can do, even in your marriage, and to not give up. This is not about what we want, but about what is best for you, and as a result, best for your whole family. We believe in you and in the marriage, but most of all, we believe in God's restoring and renewing power.... We are here and will be here for you and your family whenever you need us, we will do everything we can to support your marriage..."

How can your WW not feel controlled by her parents when they use their approval of her to control her actions? Giving and withholding approval is a huge tactic used to control others.

To a strong-willed non-people pleaser, the parent's comment about being more disappointed with her wouldn't phase her that much. But a true people pleaser, like me, would feel bad about it. Ultimately, you don't want your wife to choose to stay with you because of her fear of other people's rejection. She should choose to stay with you because she decides it's what she wants. She might stay with you initially because she cares what other people think, sure, if it works in the minute, but that won't address the people-pleaser feeling of having no control, which may drive her to another affair.

My other thought is, since your WW has evident trouble with feeling like she has no control of her life, where do you think that came from? That's why I think it might be parentally based.

Maybe I'm strange in my thinking, but I think that if your wife felt more forgiven and accepted just as she is, with all her booboos, it would be a lot easier for her to change her behavior. The fact that she has a hard time with forgiveness, the way I do, suggests that forgiveness was granted scantilly or after she made serious ammends as a child. Or maybe after her parents being "upset" with her for a long time. I think it is a learned response for her.


My husband is just like that! He is very uncomfortable with anger. For a long time he chided me every time I was angry, telling me being angry was wrong. (well, I don't think I should be angry all the time, if so I should do something about dealing with my anger in a healthy way.)


A good part of it, for sure. But what do you do with learning how to meet each other's needs? That is outright foreign territory.

The trouble is, my husband is not academically minded at all. And nearly everybody in the field I'm going in is male. So that means that to talk to other people about a lot of the stuff on my mind, I'd be talking to other guys. That is the original problem. In the affair I fell in love with a guy in my field, mainly because we could have such good conversations. I know it seems absurd, but conversation is such a big thing. Well, really, the problem came with talking about personal issues, a huge taboo.

I've known so long that that's a emotional need of mine, that I've proactively avoided male friendships... but then, is that a very healthy way to live life? My husband says it's hard for him to be supportive of my career because he is scared I'll go back to school and fall in love with some other guy. Women don't usually pursue higher education; at my age they are married with two or three children. My husband is getting to the age that he's thinking about kids, and I'm scared to death I will never be a professor the way I've dreamed ever since junior high. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Toosad,

What field are you planning on pursuing your PhD? Your H has a right to be fearful, especially right now. But, here is a thought. I asked you something about how your H is handling things and you said well. Here is a clue. His response shows that he has great self-doubt his ability to satisfy you as an H. Otherwise, he would not be so worried about you returning back to school.

Another flash for you is that even if you get your PhD, you may not become a professor. It is something you really need to think about. In most fields there are other avenues for someone with a PhD. Understand those avenues before you leap back into school. It will help you more than you realize.

As for children it can be done while in school, but it is tough on ALL concerned.

Now about the giver/taker thing. You are seeing it right now in your issue of receiving your H's love. Now you would think this falls into the "taker" category, but actually it is in your "giver" that you find you can receive a gift. You acceptance of your H's love is actually a gift...to him.

Sounds screwy doesn't it? Balancing the giver and taker requires honesty with yourself and your H. It requires empathy so that one can see both sides and still understand why you are one side of an issue. It requires that you can respect your H's point of view even if you don't agree.

Balance is not so hard to acheive IF you realize that you like almost all people on this planet are motivated by fear and greed. So is your H. Now the terms fear and greed are not just about safety and money, but needs, uncertainties, emotions. You should not be afraid to ask for what you want, but a balanced giver/taker will realize that their request just may be more than the spouse can supply and that the spouse needs things from you as well.

So many thoughts Toosad. I do think that as you completely out of the "fog" of withdrawal, much of this will make sense. But, it seems clear both you and your H have many Family of Origin, FOO, issues. These need to recognized even if you two don't go to counseling. It does sound as if it would be a good idea.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

To all those posting on this thread - thank you.

Drexxell you give me hope and strength.

JL - your words are golden and wise. I feel like I need to read them a hundred times.

Toosad - your vulnerability on a very pro-BS board is noble.

Drexxell & JL - would be very grateful for your take on my sitch. Thread is "WW Resentment".

Much love.

MDC

MDC, I promise I will go over and look at your thread in depth. I can't promise that I will have anything of use to say. I'm still new at this. Right now, I'm going to post a vent as the "stall" from last night led to a downward run on the coaster.

I know it's the coaster and it's normal. I don't have to like it. I'm confused, I'm sad and in general feel like pulling all my hair out.

Usually, WW calls at a certain time frame to say she is either leaving or working later than normal and will call me again when she's leaving. Mainly this is so I know when to start dinner or to feed the kids without her. Not yesterday. So, I waited... and waited for about an hour after she normally calls before I tried to call her. Couldn't get her at work or on her cell. Half hour after that, she calls. Now she's on her way home. She had decided to take a long walk to think about things, argue with herself she says.

She follows that up by asking me if I still want to go out that night and we renew the committment to go out and she says "we'll talk" when she gets home. So, she gets home. We do a couple of cursory things like discuss the mortgage payment, then she decided she really wasn't feeling up to going out. I was already feeling VERY insecure when she got home. This reinforced it. She asked me out, confirmed it, then cancelled. Maybe it's irrational, but it still hurt.

After we set ground rules for the conversation, we talked for over 90 minutes. We talked mainly about things that she was afraid she couldn't address because of how she thought I would respond. You all would have been proud. I didn't love bust at all. She says, "I want you to know that my feelings haven't changed. We're friends. I also want you to know that I really have seen the effort you're putting out." I wanted to cry.

I felt like I was emotionally slapped. What I HEARD was, "I've seen your effort, but it doesn't mean anything." Then the doubts started rolling through my mind. The 'why are you trying? she doesn't appreciate what you're doing.' Then she says, "I know I committed to the 8 sessions that the insurance is covering. And I really am trying." I sat silently waiting for the explosive 'but'. It never came. So, now I'm worried about unexploded ordinance that could blow up in my face. More doubts. 'she's just biding her time, waiting for the right moment.'

I expressed how I wanted to make her happy and was sincerely sorry that I hadn't done that. Then I asked for her forgiveness. She said, "It's not like I'm agry with you. I'm trying to forgive you. I've never been good at holding a grudge." She, at this point, verbally accepted responsibility for almost everything and told me stop blaming myself. But she followed that up with, "I can be happy by myself. I can be happy with just friends and family." Sucker punch. Then she talked about how she wanted to feel fulfilled and didn't know if that kind of thing existed anymore.

We talked about how she didn't and doesn't feel desired or cherished. We talked about how in the "moment" of each A she felt desired and how almost instantly after it was over there was guilt. I'm glad I hadn't eaten. I would have been ill knowing that I made her feel that way. I asked her what she thought it would take to make her feel fulfilled by being desired and cherished. "I don't know." I get a lot of 'I don't know's. 'I don't know' really drives me nuts too.

Then she says, "I feel like this conversation was productive and that we accomplished something." Huh?! "I'm tired and I should go to bed." She knows that last one irks me. I respect that she needs sleep, but I can't stand that no matter what we're doing, as soon as she decides it's bed time we stop doing whatever it is so she can go to bed.

So, there I was with a softball in my throat listening to her say our conversation was productive... I feel like I has just stood in an emotional boxing ring and got my [censored] handed to me. She feels it was productive. The progress I thought we had made in the last month she called "superficial".

I am not my usual pillar of strength this morning. I really need someone to lean on right now.

bump

Oh, Drex, this may be more of a bump and a hug than anything. You know, I'm early in the game and can't offer much true wisdom. Just know you are doing a great job in your role and that your Lord will continue to carry you. Look at the footprints in the sand right now and you will see one set. I'm praying for you now and praying that while what you got from her last conversation was painful to you that it is hopefully a process that is rough in the middle but will come out better in the end...

I'm sure it's BS fog and WS withdrawal contributing to it. Of COURSE her inner arguements are going to leave me confused. Her not wanting to go out last night after we said we were going was a big rejection to me. I dunno why, but it was almost like DDay again. I think at this point, ANY rejection is going to feel similar.

I don't know how to judge her sincerity. Is she sincerely putting forth an effort? I don't see it from my point of view. I'm really angry that she can say she takes responsibility for this that and the other thing and then not try to make up for it. I feel like I'm scrambling to keep things together and to her it just doesn't matter. Maybe it's more BS fog. I dunno.

bumping again and adding this...I think this was said on one of your posts...at least something similar...I wonder if the magnitude of her affairs is just making a long, slow process for her to really be able to get to the point of true owning up...she's still running from God. I wonder if she just thinks what she has done is too much for anyone to forgive, especially God, herself and you. My H expressed before that my complette willingness to forgive hurt at first b/c of not feeling worthy. Just some very uneducated thoughts.

My own feelings of self worth aren't all that great at the moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I can deetach and look at this from a 3rd person point of view, but that doesn't last long at all. The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am about not going out last night. It was supposed to be a good time at HER promting and somehow somewhere I wasn't good enough to do that. Do I know that's not true? Yes, I do. It's not stopping me from feeling that though. I can't seem to make my logic and my emotion get in sync...

Drexxell,

Please go back to my post to Toosad, and read the part about communications and men wanting to solve problems and women just wanting to talk. You are there my friend. She needed to talk and you did that. She was NOT looking for a solution as we guys would think of one. She is talking outload to you and getting feedback via your responses.

The fact that what she said and did hurt you is really of no moment to her right now. She is self-absorbed as is the case with A's and withdrawal. The fact that you did not blow up or threaten or negotiate was a good thing.

However, I think it is a bit early for you to be asking forgiveness. Frankly this mess is HER mess. She created it and until this mess is cleaned up, the mess of your marriage before cannot be addressed.

I understand your self-esteem is taking a beating, that is the way of things. You might consider looking for jobs, even if you really don't need to or want to. This will do several things. It will give you something else to focus on. It will prepare you IF she decides to leave, and it will let her know you are NOT dependent on her.

I don't know your W, but I think she is feeling the weight of responsibility for you and the kids. You know guys feel this weight, but we are expected to deal with it. Women are used to having more choices and this responsibility restricts her in ways.

So do some looking. Polish up the resume, and start to consider getting back into the work force. It may seem it is not best for the kids, but it actually may be better for them IF this would make your W happier and your marriage stronger. I am not saying this is a fact, but it is an alternative that you need to explore and consider.

Hang in there. She is thinking and that is good. She is talking and that is good. Oddly, it appears to me, that often with women it is not so much what they say but that they say it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Heck, how would I know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

I've already started looking for work. It's not easy, considering we put our efforts into her getting her degree and my education has been put on hold. After she got it, life was followed by several TDYs and a deployment, thus the reason I'm currently a SAHF. It was just impractical for me to work.

I'm also irritated that she was letting and encouraging me to devote a lot of time this month into getting accepted into the local university, trying to find financial aid, letting me think she's going to look into whether her GI benefits (with the new rules for the GI Bill) carry over to the military spouse etc. Then I get smacked down again.

Drexxell,

Look into the university if that is what you want. I think she is telling you what I mentioned. She is feeling the pressure of carrying the family alone financially. Men expect to do this, but women do not. You would not believe how many women where I live complain about this pressure if their H is unemployeed or disabled. We, as men, are brought up to expect to do this, women are not.

Even if one is brought up to expect it, the pressure to provide for a family does wear on men or women. Most women don't really appreciate it. Although many of the families near us are two income families, it seems the woman feels she can stop when she wants. If her H stops (loss of job, or health), then I hear a lot of grumbling.

So consider the hint, look at jobs, look at education. The choices you two made earlier, may not be the right choices for now. Who's to know? I suppose you could ask her if she feels pressure or trapped by this arrangement? It also may be true that she is realizing that since you two focused on her education, she should focus on yours now.

Hard to know at this distance but it is something to think about and consider.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for your posts. Maybe this is withdrawal on her part? Maybe I'm taking things too personal?

Drexell, I posted this on another post, but it might help:


I also want to add that the before the affair, I related to my husband as a love addict. I would expect him to meet all my needs, to be this "perfect" mate, which is all part of the fantasy of the love addict. I didn't understand that I was looking at our relationship for him to "fix" my brokenness and make me feel "whole". Now I realize that marriage is about sharing life together, an imperfect life. It is not about some man in my life being my "savior". Really, that is a role that should be saved only for God.

Here's the thing though. NC isn't an issue. I'm not afraid that she's going to leave for this other guy. I'm afraid she's just going to leave. She and I discussed NC. She knows that contact will have serious consequences. I am so seriously not fooling with that.

I'm not so much trying to fix our relationship as I'm trying to make it better. Trying to make MYSELF better. The last 24 hours was very confusing to me, not only because of what WW said, but because of how I responded emotionally. If this was jost more fog babble and I just need to push it aside and keep a trucking, that's one thing. She is just really conflicting herself in words and actions and I addressed that in an earlier post on this thread. As logical as the explinations are, it's still confusing, the pain still exists.

I know there's no magic pill or wand. I also know she needs IC for her own issues. MC and I have encouraged that, but I can't make her go.

I guess I'm just looking to see if there's a tomorrow, because I'm telling you, when you hurt like this, all you can see is the right now. Pain doesn't have patience. Logic does. Unfortunately, pain and logic aren't on speaking terms.

Toosad, I really can see and appreciate what you're saying about love addicts and fantasies. It's just not like breaking an arm or cutting a finger where there are pain killers and a reasonable timeline for recovery. I'm just venting and ranting so please don't take me personally.

Drex,
It's not just fog babble. Your wife is as emotionally messed-up as they come (I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it takes one to know one)... and long after the fog clears she will continue to have conflicting thoughts and emotions -- and they will manifest themselves in ways that will frustrate and confuse you. The bad news is, she's going to need to do a tremendous amount of work to straighten herself out. The good news is, her affectionate gestures toward you show that she is trying... and she has verbally committed to keep trying. Realistically, that's about the best you're going to get right now... so early in the process. It's way too soon to expect her to feel love for you yet. I can only imagine how much it hurt to hear that. My H and I had a similar conversation about a month after our d-day... and like you... it took the wind right out of his sails. But he somehow found the strenght to pick himself back up again... and we're still hanging in there so far.

To summarize: she cannont communicate clearly yet... because she cannont think clearly yet... and it will probably quite a bit longer before she can. In the meantime, take her at her word... and by her actions however inconsistent... that she is trying.

Hang in there Drex. I admire your strength and devotion to your wife.

--SC

Sometimes I don't feel so strong. I'm so comforted that I can come here and vent and relieve frustrations. SC, I have never felt anguish like this. Your post was spot on and your last line broke the dam that I'd had in place all day. A complete stranger. Someone I don't know from Adam said they admired something about me. I haven't heard that in a long time. Thank you.

Drexell, I am sorry to torture you with my long and impractical posts.

I actually think love addiction is the issue for her. It is THE issue. It is what keeps throwing her into these awful affairs. It is serious. It is a great emotional neediness that she doesn't know how to meet on her own or in healthy ways in good relationships, ie, with friends, with you as her husband. Love addicts often feeled controlled by their addiction. You don't know how often I tried to NOT see the guy I had an affair with. But it controlled me, to the point I was totally stupid and foolish, I went through these awful cyclical withdrawals. That is what it sounds like you are describing. And your WW has no idea what to do, how to stop it, how to meet this crazy drive within her. She knows, rightly so, that it is not just a matter of you meeting her EN. You see, you might be beating yourself up for beign a bad husband, when it has nothing to do with you. Very likely, you could have been perfect in everything you did, but it wouldn't have changed her love addiction tendencies because the problem, the addiction is deep down inside her. Maybe by not meeting some of her EN, you helped trigger her love addiction, but certainly it is not your fault.

That is the thing. Her only true hope is when she realizes that it is an addiction, that there is help, and that she doesn't have to feel the way she feels. She probably deep down in her heart very much wants to stop cheating on you but doesn't know how.

The love addiction is a symptom. It is a symptom of a much greater need, and that need is the need to be able to meaningfully connect with people. I know it sounds wierd. She might even already have real connection, but if she looks at it wrong, she won't see it. I did this for years. My husband, after a completely awful 3 years of marriage, turned this around way before the affair. It wasn't perfect, there were still a lot of hurtful behaviors, but he cut his hours, he started pursuing me. There was something wrong with me, because I couldn't acknowledge it, or give him credit for it. He still neglected our friendship, sure. But now I am starting to see that he had put a lot of effort out there and I just wasn't receptive to it. Maybe because of LB.

It is a lot harder for a love addict to learn to reach out to others for help and connection in their life than to run off and have an affair (an affair is instant gratification). After my affair, it was like I let the dam break. I would walk around, feeling lonely and miserable, and just contemplate finding someone to screw. Man, it sounds awful. Well, I never acted on it, never did anything again. But the point is that I figured out that I associated love with being wanted, being desired, and that emotional high is a lot easier to get in an affair than the work it takes to build a marriage worth having.

But I knew I was a love addict by then, and a sex addict. So I did nothing. I did not act out on it at that point. It was hard as sh** to not act out. At that point, I could barely resist calling the OM, we did talk every couple weeks, but I didn't see him, except 2 or 3 times over half a year. (This is after the PA was over). My husband was working out of the state all that time. I hadn't told him about my affair yet. I was extremely lonely. But you know what I realized? I was just as miserable by myself as I was with my husband in the house. I had blamed him, and the problem was me. It was in my wrong, addictive thinking.

I think that's probably what plan B is all about, the WS figuring out that their BS was not the problem.

So somehow, and Drexell, I have no idea how, that is what you WW has to realize. It will completely break her addictive pattern. It will push her to the point of wanting to seek help, because there actually is a cure from the controlling emotions and impulses she gets. I don't know if you buy the book I recommended and just leave it out, if she'll look at it. I don't know if you said something to her about some other girl (me) who had an affair and felt really bad about it but couldn't stop her behavior, found a lot of solace in the book. I don't know. Maybe you should read it for yourself. I don't know if you should read it just to be able to have the right perspective on her behavior and to be able to offer an alternate view when she is struggling with withdrawal.

I will pray for you and your wife. Maybe God can speak directly to her, somehow. I don't know.

I am sorry my advice is not more practical. I know my abstract posts may not offer the right help. I can't tell you exactly what to do, because I haven't been there. I cut off contact really quickly with the OM, once I told my husband. In truth, I had enough wisdom, however miniscule, at that point to realize that despite my screwed up emotions, telling me that I loved this OM, that I was full of sh**, and that I really loved my husband more than anything. So on the practical, my hands are tied. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Toosad,


Funny that you say this. I was able to get HNHN almost immediately after I found this site. I showed her the book, let her look at the 10 ENs and I asked her which I hadn't met. She told me there weren't any. Now, obviously, I think that's a load of poopy diapers. But even in our conversation last night, I actually had to tell her to let me finish talking so I could take responsibility for something I had done 7 or 8 years ago. She wants all the blame.

I feel better than I did this morning. I did a good deal of house work, have dinner in the oven (ribs), checked homework and chores. Basically filled ENs, which makes me happy because I want her to feel fulfilled. I did the homework our MC gave us, basically had a productive day.

Sometimes, it just takes a few people saying the same thing differently for me to absorb something. I thought it was an addiction when she said how many there were. She denied it, of course. I still think it's an addiction.

Don't worry about being practical. There's nothing practical about any of this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Denial is a big thing with love and/or sex addicts. The tendency is to deny, because otherwise, they feel there is something wrong with them, that they are flawed It's wierd, because deep down, they know there's something wrong, but they can't admit it, if they're conscious of it, because then to them in their rationalization, it would mean they are not worthy of love, and deep down that is their biggest fear. I think a lot of love addicts feel that the reason they don't have the fantasy love they so badly crave is because there is something wrong with them. So it makes sense they can't fess up to love addiction.

A lot of people wait until they've lost everything precious in their lives before pursuing help. They keep thinking they can "control" it, when really in real life they are horrified they can't. That's why they are horrified to think there's something wrong with them.

Really, realizing they struggle with love addiction can be the best relief they can find, now they can get true control over their life, as opposed to illusory control, aka affairs.

That's one of her fav questions right now. "What makes me so worthy?" in reference to me wanting to work things out with her.

So, I get a call a little before 5 from WW. She says she's got to work late, should be home no later than 7. It's almost 8. Can't get her on her work phone or her cell and no response to e-mails. It's a 45 minute drive to her work. Suggestions?

Oh gosh.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I used to do that to my BS, and it was because I was with the OM....

In your case, maybe not, I don't know.

My husband painted the picture for me. He said he was sorry he didn't meet my EN. He said that there was nothing he wouldn't do for me, that if I wanted him to quit his whole business and move out and be a bum in Hawaii with me, he would do that. He said that if I wanted to go to school, he would pay for it. He said he loved me more than anything. But then he said, that he would not be taken for granted. He was not going to get used. That I had a choice to make, either choose to be with him, or leave. He told me even talking to the OM wasn't good enough. He told me NC at all.

In my mind, I knew nobody else would do those things for me. You don't know how good my husband is to me. He is the a wonderful man. I prayed for my husband daily since 1st grade (funny, I know), and I don't doubt my husband is totally a true blessing from God.

That said, he put in words the tangible reasons I loved him. He didn't talk about emotions. He talked about his actions of love. And he attached a criteria for them to continue.

Maybe your WW needs to hear that you will do whatever possible to help build the life she dreams of? What would that look like for her? You only live once, so you may as well dream big. What does she want? (Of course, your wants matter too. Your goal is to figure out if maybe there are things she's wanted that she's never fessed up to, possibly for fear of complaining...)

While I say all this, keep in mind, NO GROVEllING. You are just talking, because you care. Don't have the conversation until you can be calm about it.

Even in the book I recommended "When you love too much", the Counselor/author recommends kicking out your spouse if they refuse to stop unhealthy behaviors. There has to be accountability.

But you need to follow good advice for application... maybe from MB, maybe from the book I suggested. I don't know the practical breakdown.

Wait, I also want to say, though,that my husband's method worked for me.... Your WW is unique, and the hardest part for you right now is to adequately assess exactly what would motivate her. With me, my husband knew I felt trapped, far away from my career goals, and unloved.

I worry about giving the best advice... I mean, it's what makes sense to me, but I know for other WWs they need more hardlining.... The other thing is, I wouldn't dare negotiate with my husband, not about the NC or our marriage. He is a balls out negotiator, not afraid to take risk. He is also not afraid of loss. He can manhandle anyone in a negotiation, which is why I paid attention immediately. But I think it is crucial that your WW know you mean business, about two things:

1) That you love her, your love is not fickle, neither has your history shown her you are fickle in your commitment to her,

2)That she can't be with anyone else other than you. You will not play second fiddle.

My husband told me he would leave me if I didn't get on antidepressents. That is strong, isn't it? But he knows I've been down in the dumps. So guess what? I have a meeting next Monday with a Psychiatrist. The fact that he is pushing that hard to me is a sign he loves me. He wants me to work toward healing. Pairing your commitment to your wife with your commitment for growth and exclusivity in your relationship should hopefully give her greater peace that maybe this is something that is safe enough to work towards. (Starting with saving the M is the first... next will be healing and working through her own issues... but if she'll commit at least to the M, that's a good start). The not playing second fiddle is important. Putting the choice before her puts the responsibility for her happiness in her court. You may need to give her a deadline.... and then have a next step...

Drexell,

I thought about something when I was walking the dog tonight. There were things I tolerated for a long time from my husband, before I ever finally had the guts to tell him I was not okay with. The sad thing is, I waited until I had the affair, before I realized that I mattered enough as a person that I could say them to him. That is the sad thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I finally told him one day, when he was complaining that I was getting a little bigger (and trust me, we aren't talking about a size change here, he is model-picky, and I'm really slender, size 2). I told him that from that moment on, it would no longer be acceptable to me, for him to tell me my body is not good enough. And I told him that if he thinks that, fine, don't tell me, but that I love my body, that it is strong and healthy, that I am a beautiful woman, and I'm not going to think of myself or treat myself like I am ugly. And that was that. And he got the picture. But mainly, he realized that irregardless of what he thought, I had worth, and I didn't need his opinion to think so. I said it calmy, matter of factly, not mean spirited or with fight, but simply as if that was the way it was.

I started expressing other needs in my marriage as well.

I write this to say one thing: you need to decide you have worth. Yes, Drexell, you have great worth. You don't deserve to be stepped on. It doesn't matter if you make mistakes or are imperfect in certain ways. The point it, to be able to lay down the request for NC, straight and clear, you have to earnestly embrace your worth. There are plenty of other women who would think you're the greatest guy alive. Your WW is making a mistake by not treating you like it.

I don't want to make you mad, and go off and be mean to your WW. That is not my aim. I want you to love yourself right, which means you need to set up healthy boundaries as a person to not let yourself get stepped on. That is what the NC is about. I wonder if there is a good chance that if your WW thought you were serious about leaving her if she didn't honor NC, she would all of a sudden fall into line (oversimplificaion here, I know)? I wonder if the only reason she pushes you on stuff is because she knows she can, maybe that the past has shown her she can?

And even if you separate, she won't change unless she realizes that you are serious about valuing yourself and that you're not being ok with getting stepped on.

Your wanting to be with her has to be balanced by healthy boundaries and respect for yourself.

On another note, since your WW seems to have a hard time being honest with you about her wants, do you think she might be serious about wanting you to pursue a career? Maybe that is why she talks about college for you. You should ask her.

It took me 5 years of working with my husband before I finally got the balls to tell him that I didn't want to live my life focused on making a whole bunch of money (as he did). I couldn't tell him, and at one point I think my subconscious took care of it by me getting so depressed I couldn't work any more... Not communicating is a big problem.

You are not responsible for you WWs affairs, but as vain as it sounds, her choice to stay with you may in some part have to do with how well you live your own life. I told my husband there was no way I could stay with him if it meant always investing personal funds into business as opposed to taking care of personal needs (how about paying off the debt?), not establishing savings (he is not a savings type of guy, he just builds the biz), or living really large, which practically forces me into working in a high-paying job, instead of pursuing school and my dream career. The truth is, he was using my time and energy and hard work to build his dreams, but I was completely neglecting whatever reasons it was that God put me on earth.

So maybe there are some heavy-hitter issues that need to get addressed and progress needs to be started on in another direction.


One more comment to this long post: when I finally realized I didn't need my husband to live, to be happy, to pursue my dreams in the world, I all of a sudden became better at being able to love, and just overall to be a good wife. Like what other awesome people on this post have said, all of a sudden, I had one thousand good choices in front of me, instead of just feeling "stuck" in my marriage, or in my life. I realized that I could express my wishes and desires, and that my husband wouldn't die if my wishes varied from what he thought they should be. You are not just who your WW wants you to be. You have many options. Grovelling is a problem because it relays to the WW that you don't have other options, but of course you do! You have the whole world at your feet. I didn't kid around with my BS because I knew d*** well that he could replace me if he wanted to. I knew he could get another great woman. You could find another amazing wife. Don't use this knowledge to manipulate her, but just keep it in mind when you are scared to speak kindly but candidly about things like NC.

Hey Drex,

Howa' been?

L.

Hi Orchid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyone know anything about hotels?

I ask because I called one at 6:00 this morning. This particular hotel is on the base where WW works. The conversation went like this...

Hotel: "Good morning, XXX XXX INN, this is Staff Sergeant XXX. How may I help you?"

Me: "Good morning. Has OM checked out yet?"

Hotel: "What was the last name again?"

Me: "XXX (spelled last name)"

Hotel: "Yes, he has."

Me: "When did he check out?"

Hotel: "I'm sorry, we can't release that kind of information."

What I'm curious about is, when a hotel checks to see if someone is checked out, do they simply see if there is a listing for that particular name or do they actually look up the name, find the room info etc?

By the way, we're supposed to have MC session tonight.

It could be they know the OM's name, and know he checked out a couple days ago.... but usually hotels will look people up. Hotels are computerized, they have so many rooms, that's the only way to do it. But if the receptionist didn't seem too long before answering, maybe they knew off the top of their mind that the OM checked out, and that could be either because he checked out recently, or that they recall the OM checking out some other time....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Drex...I got some great handouts at counseling yesterday from our Celebrate Recovery program at church re: characteristics of those that have been abused and of sex addicts. I'll try to scan them tonight and put them as a link or something. I think you would find it interesting. I hope today will be better for you. I know you are hurting so but you are so brave and working so hard at all this. I pray your MC session tonight will be productive.

Drex - So what happened last night? Did W come home soon after your last post where she was late? (Sorry if I missed it). Hang in there.

Hi Drex. Guess who else admires you. Three little people. And in about 20-25 years, they'll tell you so, and you'll be high as a kite! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Please excuse this little aside: TooSad, What's the book again? I gotta tell you, I get a lot out of reading your posts. Thanks.

--SC

Shortly after 8, after I made sure the kids were settled and had instructions I went looking for her, specifically, went to drive to her work, even though it's a 45 minute drive. About 20 mins into the drive (8:30?) she called my cell to say she was on her way home. She had gone for a "drive" and had a good "cry". I didn't really buy into that. That's why I called the hotel this morning. Was going to call other hotels around that area, but after talking with the first one, didn't think I needed to.

OM was deployed with her for a little over a month, then came back last month to his home. Apparently he told his wife he was going TDY or something. I don't know. I'm having a hard time finding her contact info. If anyone has an active subscription to net detective or has other tools to use and wants to volunteer, let me know.

I have a couple of errands to run and I'll be back. Give me time on how to confront WW with this info at MC tonight.

http://www.celebrate-recovery.org/Literature%20Table.htm

On this link, they have the handouts I was talking about. The one on characteristics of survivors of abuse and the 20 questions about SA were real eye openers for hubby and me.

March, thanks for the heads up. Rather enlightening material.

Okie. A quick update for everyone. Fabulous weekend. WW and I are sore from two-stepping and line dancing so much. Had a great day with the kids yesterday, even though the weather was rainy. Still investigating last weeks incidents, but I don't think there's much to them.

Thanks for everyone's support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes.

I'm so glad to hear you all had a great weekend. Also nice to know that your fears of last week were hopefully unfounded. It's so hard not to jump to conclusions or worst case scenario right now. I remember getting all worked up one time then realizing the data I was concerned about was from April 1 last year not this year. Just an example. I hope your roller coaster is a smooth ride this week.

WW had to go into work last night for a little while to make sure some people she's responsible for moving got on the bus and whatnot. I volunteered to go with her and that was all good. 45 minute drive there and back would make for a solid 90 minutes of undivided attention, right?

Well, where do I start this. LOL What she said was, "You loafed around on your back while I was getting ready." What happened was, I got ready faster than she did. I couldn't have done anything to help her get ready (she even said so) so I layed on the bed waiting.

What she said was, "You've made me run late. You make me late for everything. You have no sense of urgency for the things that are important to me." What happened was, I kissed our kids, who were sleeping, before I went downstairs to leave. We arrived at her work 10 minutes early instead of 12 or 13 minutes early. Every red light was my fault. Every slow driver...

She has a thing at her work on Friday that I'm bringing our kids to and she says, "Don't be late." in a real nasty tone. Then, she starts bringing up all the times before that I have "made her late". i.e. She says, "You made me late for my own deployment." I say, "I remember that you asked me to drive and that you decided we had enough time to stop for breakfast and we were still there 5 minutes early." She says, "You made me late for so and so's going away party." I say, "I remember you asked me to drive and you didn't have directions to the restaurant."

I say, "I'm sorry you feel as though I don't have a sense of urgency for the things that are important to you. I'll try to work on that and be better." (Poop sandwich anyone?)

She says, "You think just because you apologize it makes it all better?" Later she says, "I've been waiting to have this arguement with you for so long." I reply, "What you said was hurtful to me. I have expressed to you before that argueing with you hurts me inside and I hate doing it and you just told me you've been waiting to hurt me." Then she says, "You know what, call me names, do whatever you want, I'm not talking to you anymore." What the heck?

I swear, this was only on the way TO her work. Why do people fuss about stuff like this? Sense of urgency? We got homework from our MC last week. Individual and couple homework. My individual stuff has been done, last week she did her homework in the car on the way to MC. Her homework for this week isn't done yet and I can't do the couple homework by myself and she wants to get on my about sense of urgency.

I have a list of things that I do every week. She and I sit down and make the list together so SHE doesn't feel like anything is left out. On this same list are things that she and I agree to do together because that's really how they need to be done. The things on the list marked "together" that require more effort on her part than writing in a notebook have been carried over from week to week for the last month and I have no sense of urgency.

I've never been one to lose my temper, but last night I wanted to throw things and break things (not hurt anybody, mind you). I hate catering to her whims. I hate having to walk on eggshells. Then we get up this morning and she acts like nothing happened! I don't know if what I'm having is second thoughts, but I think I'm starting to lose my motivation. This is really wearing on me. Somebody please hoist me back up.

Drex...
Of course, I've never tried to execute a plan-A, but since I'm an early bird, I'll give you my take on this so's you have some feedback to chew on until some of the others get their butts out of bed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

First impression: She's trying to goad you and you're doing pretty dang well holding your own.

Why is she trying to goad you? Who the heck knows. Could be she feels so awful about herself right now that she's looking for an "out" (and probably isn't even consciously aware of it). Could be she's trying to test you. Could be withdrawl.

Regardless, you did okay. It sounds like you did a good job setting the record straight, calmly.

Here's the only misstep I see:


Has this really been getting under her skin for a long time? Or is she just looking for an excuse to do battle with you now, and that's the best she could come up with on short notice? Again, who knows? It probably wouldn't hurt for you to do a little thinking about whether her complaint might have ANY validity, just so you can move on with a clear conscience.

But what I really wanted to say about the above paragraph is that you essentially told her -- "don't bring up beefs with me cause it hurts me". That ain't gonna work. Next time, how about something along the lines of...

"You know, if I've been doing something to hurt or irritate you... I want to know about it. I want to know what I can do to make it better. But I can't fix the problem unless I really understand what it is... and so far you've only given me examples of things I remember differently. Are there other examples? Or things I've said or done to make you feel this way?"

She might come up with some more examples.

She might say... "You just don't get it!"... To which you could say... "No, I don't. But I'm willing to try, if you want to discuss it more at some point."

One other thing... If you feel like breaking things to get out some of that frustration... go for it. I know of a woman who buys junky old dishes at yard sales just so she can break a stack of them when she's really mad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there, Drex.

--SC

Oh... PS... if the approach I suggested doesn't work... you could always get out that handy-dandy straw of yours and... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think Smart Cookie's advice is excellent. I too wonder if the goading is due to her feeling so bad about herself. I do commend you for handling it so well. I know it is so hard for you to have been walking on eggshells for almost 6 weeks straight. You do need some plates to break or something. Maybe instead of dancing you need to go play racquetball or paintball or do some roller derby.

As for her homework that she is not doing, would it be possible for you to help her get a free time slot scheduled to do it. Is there something you could do that she wouldn't have to do in order to make time for it? I know since you are the SAHD there probably isn't a lot she does but just an idea.

I can understand that your motivation may be waning but from what I've learned about you, I think you can pull up the boot straps and continue. We just have to think her breakthrough is right around the corner. Don't give up to soon. I know it feels like an eternity but it's been less than 2 months...compare that to how many times and years her A's happened. I'm saying a prayer for you now.

SC,

Yeah, I may have LB'd there. I have been telling her for 6 weeks though that if I don't know there's a problem I can't fix it. She's getting the same line from MC too. When she said she had been waiting to argue with me about that, it was a trigger. Really, after 12 years, she knows what buttons to push. Could I have phrased it differently? Probably. I felt and still feel like she was intentionally being hurtful and there's no rule, last I checked, that said I had to eat every poopy sandwich I was served.

I guess I should clarify the background behind that statement a little. WW and I can, when we choose to, communicate without peeing in each others Cheerios. We do it all the time. And recently, we've gotten really good at actively listening, repeating, validating, etc. When we've had arguements, though, it always ends with, "I hate argueing with you. I know it hurts you and because it hurts you, it hurts me. I don't want to be the cause of your hurt or unhappiness." To which she says, "I hate fighting with you too." 90% of the time, something gets resolved and we're better than where we started before the fuss.

Last night just seemed absolutely silly, though. There was no resolution. And I'm still mad. I really did try to understand where her anger was coming from. I asked her to explain it differently to me 2 or 3 times so I could "get it". What I got was DJs, and AOs. Now I'm concerned that when we go to MC tonight, I'm not going to be able to focus on what we're there for because I'm going to be hung up on this nonsense.

Yes, the straw has come to mind. Sometimes, I feel as though it needs to be big enough for Florida to fit through though. LOL

March,


I'm allergic to pain and my doctor says there isn't an allergy shot for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Actually, WW and I used to play racquetball a lot. Now she's not into it. And she despises paint ball.

As far as giving her a break and providing her time to do her homework? She has chosen every day since the assignment was given to play a video game instead of doing her homework. She has chosen to play a video game instead of helping me do the two things she committed to helping me do. And I wouldn't ask for her help if I didn't need it. I'm seriously considering asking the neighbor to come over and helping me do one of them. Yesterday, I saved her 3 hours at work by going to Sam's and picking up this huge order for her snack bar thing, and driving it out to her work. Not so much as a thank you.

This is what SC was referring to earlier with the straw. I commented on another thread about no matter what WS does, BS should just blow sunshine up WSs [censored]. I'm starting to get out of breath though.

I really appreciate you two looking out for me and calling me on my LBs. It really does mean a lot that I can come here and vent and get support.

Well, I stand corrected. You've done your part to allow her the time to do the homework. You can't give her the desire. I do wish I could blow something up her [censored] to get her in gear. Like I told you on my thread, I think the length and number of her A's make this a long road back for her...

((Drex)),
I don't even know that what you said rises to the level of an LB. But it kind of shuts the door on any arguement, and can be twisted around to make you look like the bad guy. That's all I meant. Drex, listen, your wife has soooo much work to do. She will either do it or not. If she doesn't, you can't make your marriage good all by yourself. Are you at a point yet where you have truly internalized that concept... and KNOW that YOU will be okay either way... because you ARE doing the work?

--SC

SC,

I feel like I don't know what point I'm at right now. I am financially dependant on her right now, though I'm trying to fix that, because I have followed her around her entire career. I know that if I wanted to leave, there are people who would take me in until I could get myself set up. And I know that a judge in SC would slap her around in divorce court. SC is a state that favors fathers as primary custodians in cases like this. And because we've lived here a year, legally, she has to file here.

Having said all of that, I haven't done anything to instigate any D proceedings. I've just protected myself and our kids. I love my wife with every fiber of my being. Sometimes, she makes me so angry that I feel like those fibers are being ripped apart.

I just called her to ask her (for the third time in 3 days) if I needed to pay for this thing at her work tomorrow with cash or if I could write a check. Obviously, it wasn't important enough for her to find out because 3 days after I asked the first time she still doesn't have the answer. I explained that I was doing my errands today and wasn't planning any for tomorrow except to go out there to be with her. I dare not say anything to her about "sense of urgency".

Already, I have to pull the kids out of school to take them to this thing. I don't agree with pulling them out of school for this, but I'm doing it anyway. I'm tempted to not even go. I'm seriously not comfortable taking the kids to this thing cause theres going to be drinking and stuff.

I'm sorry to be so down. Today isn't turning out to be so good.

Those of you who do, pray for us, will you please?

Drex...I've been praying for you and your wife today and I know others are too...

Thanks everyone. I did feel the prayers. I really appreciate your support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />