bumping again and adding this...I think this was said on one of your posts...at least something similar...I wonder if the magnitude of her affairs is just making a long, slow process for her to really be able to get to the point of true owning up...she's still running from God. I wonder if she just thinks what she has done is too much for anyone to forgive, especially God, herself and you. My H expressed before that my complette willingness to forgive hurt at first b/c of not feeling worthy. Just some very uneducated thoughts.

My own feelings of self worth aren't all that great at the moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I can deetach and look at this from a 3rd person point of view, but that doesn't last long at all. The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am about not going out last night. It was supposed to be a good time at HER promting and somehow somewhere I wasn't good enough to do that. Do I know that's not true? Yes, I do. It's not stopping me from feeling that though. I can't seem to make my logic and my emotion get in sync...

Drexxell,

Please go back to my post to Toosad, and read the part about communications and men wanting to solve problems and women just wanting to talk. You are there my friend. She needed to talk and you did that. She was NOT looking for a solution as we guys would think of one. She is talking outload to you and getting feedback via your responses.

The fact that what she said and did hurt you is really of no moment to her right now. She is self-absorbed as is the case with A's and withdrawal. The fact that you did not blow up or threaten or negotiate was a good thing.

However, I think it is a bit early for you to be asking forgiveness. Frankly this mess is HER mess. She created it and until this mess is cleaned up, the mess of your marriage before cannot be addressed.

I understand your self-esteem is taking a beating, that is the way of things. You might consider looking for jobs, even if you really don't need to or want to. This will do several things. It will give you something else to focus on. It will prepare you IF she decides to leave, and it will let her know you are NOT dependent on her.

I don't know your W, but I think she is feeling the weight of responsibility for you and the kids. You know guys feel this weight, but we are expected to deal with it. Women are used to having more choices and this responsibility restricts her in ways.

So do some looking. Polish up the resume, and start to consider getting back into the work force. It may seem it is not best for the kids, but it actually may be better for them IF this would make your W happier and your marriage stronger. I am not saying this is a fact, but it is an alternative that you need to explore and consider.

Hang in there. She is thinking and that is good. She is talking and that is good. Oddly, it appears to me, that often with women it is not so much what they say but that they say it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Heck, how would I know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

I've already started looking for work. It's not easy, considering we put our efforts into her getting her degree and my education has been put on hold. After she got it, life was followed by several TDYs and a deployment, thus the reason I'm currently a SAHF. It was just impractical for me to work.

I'm also irritated that she was letting and encouraging me to devote a lot of time this month into getting accepted into the local university, trying to find financial aid, letting me think she's going to look into whether her GI benefits (with the new rules for the GI Bill) carry over to the military spouse etc. Then I get smacked down again.

Drexxell,

Look into the university if that is what you want. I think she is telling you what I mentioned. She is feeling the pressure of carrying the family alone financially. Men expect to do this, but women do not. You would not believe how many women where I live complain about this pressure if their H is unemployeed or disabled. We, as men, are brought up to expect to do this, women are not.

Even if one is brought up to expect it, the pressure to provide for a family does wear on men or women. Most women don't really appreciate it. Although many of the families near us are two income families, it seems the woman feels she can stop when she wants. If her H stops (loss of job, or health), then I hear a lot of grumbling.

So consider the hint, look at jobs, look at education. The choices you two made earlier, may not be the right choices for now. Who's to know? I suppose you could ask her if she feels pressure or trapped by this arrangement? It also may be true that she is realizing that since you two focused on her education, she should focus on yours now.

Hard to know at this distance but it is something to think about and consider.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for your posts. Maybe this is withdrawal on her part? Maybe I'm taking things too personal?

Drexell, I posted this on another post, but it might help:


I also want to add that the before the affair, I related to my husband as a love addict. I would expect him to meet all my needs, to be this "perfect" mate, which is all part of the fantasy of the love addict. I didn't understand that I was looking at our relationship for him to "fix" my brokenness and make me feel "whole". Now I realize that marriage is about sharing life together, an imperfect life. It is not about some man in my life being my "savior". Really, that is a role that should be saved only for God.

Here's the thing though. NC isn't an issue. I'm not afraid that she's going to leave for this other guy. I'm afraid she's just going to leave. She and I discussed NC. She knows that contact will have serious consequences. I am so seriously not fooling with that.

I'm not so much trying to fix our relationship as I'm trying to make it better. Trying to make MYSELF better. The last 24 hours was very confusing to me, not only because of what WW said, but because of how I responded emotionally. If this was jost more fog babble and I just need to push it aside and keep a trucking, that's one thing. She is just really conflicting herself in words and actions and I addressed that in an earlier post on this thread. As logical as the explinations are, it's still confusing, the pain still exists.

I know there's no magic pill or wand. I also know she needs IC for her own issues. MC and I have encouraged that, but I can't make her go.

I guess I'm just looking to see if there's a tomorrow, because I'm telling you, when you hurt like this, all you can see is the right now. Pain doesn't have patience. Logic does. Unfortunately, pain and logic aren't on speaking terms.

Toosad, I really can see and appreciate what you're saying about love addicts and fantasies. It's just not like breaking an arm or cutting a finger where there are pain killers and a reasonable timeline for recovery. I'm just venting and ranting so please don't take me personally.

Drex,
It's not just fog babble. Your wife is as emotionally messed-up as they come (I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it takes one to know one)... and long after the fog clears she will continue to have conflicting thoughts and emotions -- and they will manifest themselves in ways that will frustrate and confuse you. The bad news is, she's going to need to do a tremendous amount of work to straighten herself out. The good news is, her affectionate gestures toward you show that she is trying... and she has verbally committed to keep trying. Realistically, that's about the best you're going to get right now... so early in the process. It's way too soon to expect her to feel love for you yet. I can only imagine how much it hurt to hear that. My H and I had a similar conversation about a month after our d-day... and like you... it took the wind right out of his sails. But he somehow found the strenght to pick himself back up again... and we're still hanging in there so far.

To summarize: she cannont communicate clearly yet... because she cannont think clearly yet... and it will probably quite a bit longer before she can. In the meantime, take her at her word... and by her actions however inconsistent... that she is trying.

Hang in there Drex. I admire your strength and devotion to your wife.

--SC

Sometimes I don't feel so strong. I'm so comforted that I can come here and vent and relieve frustrations. SC, I have never felt anguish like this. Your post was spot on and your last line broke the dam that I'd had in place all day. A complete stranger. Someone I don't know from Adam said they admired something about me. I haven't heard that in a long time. Thank you.

Drexell, I am sorry to torture you with my long and impractical posts.

I actually think love addiction is the issue for her. It is THE issue. It is what keeps throwing her into these awful affairs. It is serious. It is a great emotional neediness that she doesn't know how to meet on her own or in healthy ways in good relationships, ie, with friends, with you as her husband. Love addicts often feeled controlled by their addiction. You don't know how often I tried to NOT see the guy I had an affair with. But it controlled me, to the point I was totally stupid and foolish, I went through these awful cyclical withdrawals. That is what it sounds like you are describing. And your WW has no idea what to do, how to stop it, how to meet this crazy drive within her. She knows, rightly so, that it is not just a matter of you meeting her EN. You see, you might be beating yourself up for beign a bad husband, when it has nothing to do with you. Very likely, you could have been perfect in everything you did, but it wouldn't have changed her love addiction tendencies because the problem, the addiction is deep down inside her. Maybe by not meeting some of her EN, you helped trigger her love addiction, but certainly it is not your fault.

That is the thing. Her only true hope is when she realizes that it is an addiction, that there is help, and that she doesn't have to feel the way she feels. She probably deep down in her heart very much wants to stop cheating on you but doesn't know how.

The love addiction is a symptom. It is a symptom of a much greater need, and that need is the need to be able to meaningfully connect with people. I know it sounds wierd. She might even already have real connection, but if she looks at it wrong, she won't see it. I did this for years. My husband, after a completely awful 3 years of marriage, turned this around way before the affair. It wasn't perfect, there were still a lot of hurtful behaviors, but he cut his hours, he started pursuing me. There was something wrong with me, because I couldn't acknowledge it, or give him credit for it. He still neglected our friendship, sure. But now I am starting to see that he had put a lot of effort out there and I just wasn't receptive to it. Maybe because of LB.

It is a lot harder for a love addict to learn to reach out to others for help and connection in their life than to run off and have an affair (an affair is instant gratification). After my affair, it was like I let the dam break. I would walk around, feeling lonely and miserable, and just contemplate finding someone to screw. Man, it sounds awful. Well, I never acted on it, never did anything again. But the point is that I figured out that I associated love with being wanted, being desired, and that emotional high is a lot easier to get in an affair than the work it takes to build a marriage worth having.

But I knew I was a love addict by then, and a sex addict. So I did nothing. I did not act out on it at that point. It was hard as sh** to not act out. At that point, I could barely resist calling the OM, we did talk every couple weeks, but I didn't see him, except 2 or 3 times over half a year. (This is after the PA was over). My husband was working out of the state all that time. I hadn't told him about my affair yet. I was extremely lonely. But you know what I realized? I was just as miserable by myself as I was with my husband in the house. I had blamed him, and the problem was me. It was in my wrong, addictive thinking.

I think that's probably what plan B is all about, the WS figuring out that their BS was not the problem.

So somehow, and Drexell, I have no idea how, that is what you WW has to realize. It will completely break her addictive pattern. It will push her to the point of wanting to seek help, because there actually is a cure from the controlling emotions and impulses she gets. I don't know if you buy the book I recommended and just leave it out, if she'll look at it. I don't know if you said something to her about some other girl (me) who had an affair and felt really bad about it but couldn't stop her behavior, found a lot of solace in the book. I don't know. Maybe you should read it for yourself. I don't know if you should read it just to be able to have the right perspective on her behavior and to be able to offer an alternate view when she is struggling with withdrawal.

I will pray for you and your wife. Maybe God can speak directly to her, somehow. I don't know.

I am sorry my advice is not more practical. I know my abstract posts may not offer the right help. I can't tell you exactly what to do, because I haven't been there. I cut off contact really quickly with the OM, once I told my husband. In truth, I had enough wisdom, however miniscule, at that point to realize that despite my screwed up emotions, telling me that I loved this OM, that I was full of sh**, and that I really loved my husband more than anything. So on the practical, my hands are tied. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Toosad,


Funny that you say this. I was able to get HNHN almost immediately after I found this site. I showed her the book, let her look at the 10 ENs and I asked her which I hadn't met. She told me there weren't any. Now, obviously, I think that's a load of poopy diapers. But even in our conversation last night, I actually had to tell her to let me finish talking so I could take responsibility for something I had done 7 or 8 years ago. She wants all the blame.

I feel better than I did this morning. I did a good deal of house work, have dinner in the oven (ribs), checked homework and chores. Basically filled ENs, which makes me happy because I want her to feel fulfilled. I did the homework our MC gave us, basically had a productive day.

Sometimes, it just takes a few people saying the same thing differently for me to absorb something. I thought it was an addiction when she said how many there were. She denied it, of course. I still think it's an addiction.

Don't worry about being practical. There's nothing practical about any of this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Denial is a big thing with love and/or sex addicts. The tendency is to deny, because otherwise, they feel there is something wrong with them, that they are flawed It's wierd, because deep down, they know there's something wrong, but they can't admit it, if they're conscious of it, because then to them in their rationalization, it would mean they are not worthy of love, and deep down that is their biggest fear. I think a lot of love addicts feel that the reason they don't have the fantasy love they so badly crave is because there is something wrong with them. So it makes sense they can't fess up to love addiction.

A lot of people wait until they've lost everything precious in their lives before pursuing help. They keep thinking they can "control" it, when really in real life they are horrified they can't. That's why they are horrified to think there's something wrong with them.

Really, realizing they struggle with love addiction can be the best relief they can find, now they can get true control over their life, as opposed to illusory control, aka affairs.

That's one of her fav questions right now. "What makes me so worthy?" in reference to me wanting to work things out with her.

So, I get a call a little before 5 from WW. She says she's got to work late, should be home no later than 7. It's almost 8. Can't get her on her work phone or her cell and no response to e-mails. It's a 45 minute drive to her work. Suggestions?

Oh gosh.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I used to do that to my BS, and it was because I was with the OM....

In your case, maybe not, I don't know.

My husband painted the picture for me. He said he was sorry he didn't meet my EN. He said that there was nothing he wouldn't do for me, that if I wanted him to quit his whole business and move out and be a bum in Hawaii with me, he would do that. He said that if I wanted to go to school, he would pay for it. He said he loved me more than anything. But then he said, that he would not be taken for granted. He was not going to get used. That I had a choice to make, either choose to be with him, or leave. He told me even talking to the OM wasn't good enough. He told me NC at all.

In my mind, I knew nobody else would do those things for me. You don't know how good my husband is to me. He is the a wonderful man. I prayed for my husband daily since 1st grade (funny, I know), and I don't doubt my husband is totally a true blessing from God.

That said, he put in words the tangible reasons I loved him. He didn't talk about emotions. He talked about his actions of love. And he attached a criteria for them to continue.

Maybe your WW needs to hear that you will do whatever possible to help build the life she dreams of? What would that look like for her? You only live once, so you may as well dream big. What does she want? (Of course, your wants matter too. Your goal is to figure out if maybe there are things she's wanted that she's never fessed up to, possibly for fear of complaining...)

While I say all this, keep in mind, NO GROVEllING. You are just talking, because you care. Don't have the conversation until you can be calm about it.

Even in the book I recommended "When you love too much", the Counselor/author recommends kicking out your spouse if they refuse to stop unhealthy behaviors. There has to be accountability.

But you need to follow good advice for application... maybe from MB, maybe from the book I suggested. I don't know the practical breakdown.

Wait, I also want to say, though,that my husband's method worked for me.... Your WW is unique, and the hardest part for you right now is to adequately assess exactly what would motivate her. With me, my husband knew I felt trapped, far away from my career goals, and unloved.

I worry about giving the best advice... I mean, it's what makes sense to me, but I know for other WWs they need more hardlining.... The other thing is, I wouldn't dare negotiate with my husband, not about the NC or our marriage. He is a balls out negotiator, not afraid to take risk. He is also not afraid of loss. He can manhandle anyone in a negotiation, which is why I paid attention immediately. But I think it is crucial that your WW know you mean business, about two things:

1) That you love her, your love is not fickle, neither has your history shown her you are fickle in your commitment to her,

2)That she can't be with anyone else other than you. You will not play second fiddle.

My husband told me he would leave me if I didn't get on antidepressents. That is strong, isn't it? But he knows I've been down in the dumps. So guess what? I have a meeting next Monday with a Psychiatrist. The fact that he is pushing that hard to me is a sign he loves me. He wants me to work toward healing. Pairing your commitment to your wife with your commitment for growth and exclusivity in your relationship should hopefully give her greater peace that maybe this is something that is safe enough to work towards. (Starting with saving the M is the first... next will be healing and working through her own issues... but if she'll commit at least to the M, that's a good start). The not playing second fiddle is important. Putting the choice before her puts the responsibility for her happiness in her court. You may need to give her a deadline.... and then have a next step...

Drexell,

I thought about something when I was walking the dog tonight. There were things I tolerated for a long time from my husband, before I ever finally had the guts to tell him I was not okay with. The sad thing is, I waited until I had the affair, before I realized that I mattered enough as a person that I could say them to him. That is the sad thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I finally told him one day, when he was complaining that I was getting a little bigger (and trust me, we aren't talking about a size change here, he is model-picky, and I'm really slender, size 2). I told him that from that moment on, it would no longer be acceptable to me, for him to tell me my body is not good enough. And I told him that if he thinks that, fine, don't tell me, but that I love my body, that it is strong and healthy, that I am a beautiful woman, and I'm not going to think of myself or treat myself like I am ugly. And that was that. And he got the picture. But mainly, he realized that irregardless of what he thought, I had worth, and I didn't need his opinion to think so. I said it calmy, matter of factly, not mean spirited or with fight, but simply as if that was the way it was.

I started expressing other needs in my marriage as well.

I write this to say one thing: you need to decide you have worth. Yes, Drexell, you have great worth. You don't deserve to be stepped on. It doesn't matter if you make mistakes or are imperfect in certain ways. The point it, to be able to lay down the request for NC, straight and clear, you have to earnestly embrace your worth. There are plenty of other women who would think you're the greatest guy alive. Your WW is making a mistake by not treating you like it.

I don't want to make you mad, and go off and be mean to your WW. That is not my aim. I want you to love yourself right, which means you need to set up healthy boundaries as a person to not let yourself get stepped on. That is what the NC is about. I wonder if there is a good chance that if your WW thought you were serious about leaving her if she didn't honor NC, she would all of a sudden fall into line (oversimplificaion here, I know)? I wonder if the only reason she pushes you on stuff is because she knows she can, maybe that the past has shown her she can?

And even if you separate, she won't change unless she realizes that you are serious about valuing yourself and that you're not being ok with getting stepped on.

Your wanting to be with her has to be balanced by healthy boundaries and respect for yourself.

On another note, since your WW seems to have a hard time being honest with you about her wants, do you think she might be serious about wanting you to pursue a career? Maybe that is why she talks about college for you. You should ask her.

It took me 5 years of working with my husband before I finally got the balls to tell him that I didn't want to live my life focused on making a whole bunch of money (as he did). I couldn't tell him, and at one point I think my subconscious took care of it by me getting so depressed I couldn't work any more... Not communicating is a big problem.

You are not responsible for you WWs affairs, but as vain as it sounds, her choice to stay with you may in some part have to do with how well you live your own life. I told my husband there was no way I could stay with him if it meant always investing personal funds into business as opposed to taking care of personal needs (how about paying off the debt?), not establishing savings (he is not a savings type of guy, he just builds the biz), or living really large, which practically forces me into working in a high-paying job, instead of pursuing school and my dream career. The truth is, he was using my time and energy and hard work to build his dreams, but I was completely neglecting whatever reasons it was that God put me on earth.

So maybe there are some heavy-hitter issues that need to get addressed and progress needs to be started on in another direction.


One more comment to this long post: when I finally realized I didn't need my husband to live, to be happy, to pursue my dreams in the world, I all of a sudden became better at being able to love, and just overall to be a good wife. Like what other awesome people on this post have said, all of a sudden, I had one thousand good choices in front of me, instead of just feeling "stuck" in my marriage, or in my life. I realized that I could express my wishes and desires, and that my husband wouldn't die if my wishes varied from what he thought they should be. You are not just who your WW wants you to be. You have many options. Grovelling is a problem because it relays to the WW that you don't have other options, but of course you do! You have the whole world at your feet. I didn't kid around with my BS because I knew d*** well that he could replace me if he wanted to. I knew he could get another great woman. You could find another amazing wife. Don't use this knowledge to manipulate her, but just keep it in mind when you are scared to speak kindly but candidly about things like NC.

Hey Drex,

Howa' been?

L.

Hi Orchid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyone know anything about hotels?

I ask because I called one at 6:00 this morning. This particular hotel is on the base where WW works. The conversation went like this...

Hotel: "Good morning, XXX XXX INN, this is Staff Sergeant XXX. How may I help you?"

Me: "Good morning. Has OM checked out yet?"

Hotel: "What was the last name again?"

Me: "XXX (spelled last name)"

Hotel: "Yes, he has."

Me: "When did he check out?"

Hotel: "I'm sorry, we can't release that kind of information."

What I'm curious about is, when a hotel checks to see if someone is checked out, do they simply see if there is a listing for that particular name or do they actually look up the name, find the room info etc?

By the way, we're supposed to have MC session tonight.