I found MB a few weeks ago and I have read everything in the site from beginning to end. I get it. I concur. I'm putting it in practise.

First of all, I want to explain me and my SO's (Significant Other) situation.

He is currently still married, although they (W initiated) started divorce proceedings 2 yrs ago. She is a WW and has been for many years of the marriage. She does not fulfil many of his ENs (none that I know of to be honest) and her standard response to changing this was that "she's just not like that". She has been physically abusive. SF was almost non existent (once a year if that).

He says the M ended over 5 years ago. He has been going through the stages of withdrawal over that time, anger, hurt, regret etc. He has accepted that the marriage is over. He is not bitter. Without me, it would still be over.

The reason they are not yet divorced is business-related. They own a business together and as a couple they are the face customers associate with it.

They have a contract that will be seen through by the end of this year and they will DEFINITELY be divorced by next year (he says).



A little about me

I am 24, smart, and attractive. I am not naive. I have been in several unhealthy relationships, all of which taught me a lot about myself. I have beautiful, blessed friendships with a few female friends that has become my standard for testing the health of a romantic relationship.

I would like to get married at around 26.

I am degree educated, support myself, live in my own newly refurbished flat and have my feet firmly on a path to my desired career. I have lived a very exciting life and I am very much looking forward to the stage coming ahead - which is building a family.


Why him and no one else for now

I have decided that my SO is worth taking a chance for, and worth my effort. I base this on the fact that he is actually a wonderful man who shares similar values to me.

- He is very loving and openly affectionate
- He has a social conscience and participates in community revival at home and abroad
- He is a self made man, which I greatly admire.
- He is respectful and honest.
- He is good with children and is very close with his family (M, F, D from childhood relationship)
- He is the marrying kind. He did strive to make his marriage work. He was gutted that it didn't (I would be gone if he was abusive about his W)
- He loves me.

He is worth fighting for and I am fighting for him.


The fly in the ointment

My SO is reluctant (inspite of adivse from family and friends) to get a divorce ASAP, because of the financial repercussions. I have not had a problem with this until now.

Now, we've been together for 7 months and we are solidly in love. ENs are being met for the most part. Few LBs, I mainly LB over the ongoing M.

We have tried to break up several times as a result of the poor timing, but never succeeded.

We just came together again after a 10 day break because things were getting stressful (combination of his very busy work schedule and M) and the time apart gave me time to think. And I am positive, that we will not have a chance if he plans on hiding our relationship for a year and/or more.



My plan and why I am on MB

To improve the meeting of both our ENs. Share the MB way because I know he is scared to embark on a 2nd marriage when his 1st failed so painfully. And to TOTALLY eliminate LBs, particularly where the M is concerned.

And to begin to encourage him to expose our relationship to more people and CHOOSE US 100%.

As I said, I would like to be married at 26. And if it's not going to be to him, then I have to get on with finding and nurturing the right man and relationship. I do hope it is him.

I have given our relationship till December to get on the right track. I will be on Plan A till September and then Plan B.

I will keep track of our progress and seek inspiration here.

Thanks for reading.

I sent him this email yesterday. The evening after we met up from our break.


Not trying to overwhelm you.

I just have to be honest about where I am at before I get carried away with our relationship.

Do me a favour please? Read this summary http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html and let me know what you think.

I think at this point of our relationship we should have a clear idea about our goal as a couple. If we really are one that is. I know plenty about dead end relationships. I've been in many, and I've learnt how they work.

Honey, I don't want us in a lose-lose or win-lose situation. I don't want either of us to have to lose. If we continue how we are (neither here nor there, no guarantees, no promises) for a year or two years, you might be HURT if we don't work out, but you'd either have W or your Bachelor life waiting. I would have lost 2 years of my life for what turned out to be nothing.

I'm 24. I'll be finishing my BA at 25. I would like to be married and beginning a family at 26.

I know this is FULL ON for you, I'm sorry. But our situation forces me to be clear about my life plans, because I do see you as someone I could spend the rest of my life with and I need to know that we're heading in the same direction so I don't FOOL myself.

Honey, if you feel I'm someone you'd seriously consider spending the rest of your life with (brace yourself for some heavy phrases) as your possible second wife, as the mother of your children, as your best friend and as your life companion, then you'd want to prepare our lives for that from now.

You would want to see that we learn how to make decisions together that are in both our interests.

That we understand each others needs and start learning how to meet them (so it becomes second nature for us).

That we really start to build a life TOGETHER that we both love and that makes us both HAPPY.

SO, if we've found each other, and we believe what we've found is a blessing and the stuff that everyone prays for, why would we treat it the way that we are now? We are stifling it, hiding it, shaming it, spoiling it. We do this for long enough neither you nor I will want it, it will become so dirty and unappealing.

And what for?

For economical reasons.

Because at the end of the day there is money to be made.

My dear don't get me wrong, I like money just as much as you if not more. And I get that you're 38 and you want financial reward for your hard working life till now.

I want financial reward for you too. Whether or not we're together, it still makes me look good to have successful people around me!

I just believe that it will cost the relationship we could have had if this is prioritised over US.



QUESTION

Please try to answer this baby: Aside from the financial consideration -

------ You getting divorced now will make you look bad, especially when you reveal my existence. Right? What plans do you have in mind to create a different outcome next year?
------ How long after your divorce do you think YOU will need to heal, before embarking on another (brace yourself for heavy word again) marriage? How long do you think your family and friends will need? Because it DOES matter, how long do you think W will need before seeing you walk down the aisle with someone else and begin a new life with someone else?
------ How long are you willing to ask ME to wait for you to complete your personal goals? And if we are together for 1-2 years living independent lives, achieving independent goals, how easy do you think it will be for us to drop the lives we'd have built, to build one together?

SO, I think these are very important questions.

This isn't about you being afraid of our relationship trapping you, limiting you, holding you back. We've both been hurt and limited by relationships before, we're veterans, so we know what we don't want, and what we do.

I believe we could be our greatest enhancements, elevators, motivators! What we can accomplish together SO, I do NOT believe we will accomplish in the same time separately.

If you were not still married, I bet we'd be living that truth already.



CONCLUSION

Baby, I don't want you to bury your head in the sand and ignore the challenges we have. I don't believe that as hard as things are for us now, we're making them easier by just AVOIDING the issue.

SO 95% of relationships that start out like ours DON'T MAKE IT. The odds are already against us. I imagine that those that made it were not just lucky but determined to make it work.

I need you to stand in the front line to fight to preserve us!

I need you, to truly choose us, which means putting the meeting of both our needs first.

Dr Harley (marriage coach and author of MarriageBuilders.com) suggests four pillars of a successful marriage:

1) Faithfulness - An exclusive, monogamous relationship
2) Extraordinary care - Meeting every single one of each other's primary emotional needs in a timely and professional way
3) Permanent for life - The marriage is seen as.
4) Husband and wife come together for the prosperity of children

It sounded about right to me.

SO, I know that you needed time to be sure about who I am and what you can build with me. As pessimistic by nature as you may be, I'm confident that now, you do know me and what I'm about.

I want us to build together.

I don't want us slowing each other down. After 7 months and quite a few breaks we should both have a good idea of where we feel the relationship is heading, and where we want it to go.

SO if you don't see a clear future for us, that you want to work towards, then you should let me know so I can heal and move on. I hate saying that!

I swear down if you weren't married I wouldn't be saying it (unless you really kept me in the back seat without a hope for change!).

I'm in the back seat to so many considerations in your life, most of which I can work with. We can learn to build a happy life with your (and eventually my) career thriving. We can learn to build a happy life with DD fully a part of it. We can learn to build a happy life inspite of your friends and family (and customers) who will no doubt be upset that you and W broke up. We can learn to build a happy life in spite of our individual hurts and wounds from unhealthy relationships. We can learn to build a happy life in any part of the world we decide to live in!

All this we can do, I trust you and I trust me in that.

But we cannot build a happy life on lies and deceit. We can't grow like that.

Please read this carefully and think about it. Right now SO, are you acting for the long term, or for the short term? Are the choices you're making laying down healthy foundations for the next 5, 10, 15 years in ALL aspects of your life personal, emotional, spiritual, financial?? Are they fulfilling short term goals in a few aspects of your life?

Baby, from the bottom of my heart, I am saying this for you as well as for me. I want you. I believe I would have a beautiful, loving, cherished life with you. But I also believe I could bring you unshakable joy, lasting love and prosperity (I have shrewd business acumen don't mistake it! Then children ... let your labour positively affect lives long after you're gone.)

I'll stop. Because I've said so much here already, and there's enough for you to think about, I think.

You know I'll be fine if you decide I'm not what you want. I was not born to lose.



In my heart always,
Your SO xxxx

How do you know she fulfilled none of his ENs? How do you know that she has been physically abusive? How do you know that SF was almost non existent? How do you know the M ended over 5 years ago? Were you THERE? Were you in hiding in the closets, in the crawlspace? I mean... how do you KNOW?

Or is this what he's TOLD you? Because let me tell you hon, if it is, it's right out of the handbook. Your SO sounds like my WH: a wonderful, persuasive talker who knows how to maintain a great image (including suffering the requisite amount of "grief" for the - boo hoo - inevitable, sad end of the marriage). But let's look at actions, hmmm? What did he DO to save this marriage? (And again: you must look at how you KNOW what he did.) And what is he doing NOW? Is he having an affair, or isn't he? And if a man had a gram of integrity, wouldn't he do the honorable thing in ending the marriage in order to pursue another R? And what kind of a man is it that PUTS HIS BUSINESS AND HIS CUSTOMERS ahead of doing the right thing?

You most certainly share the same values. And the biggest value you seem to share is a disproportionate one about how great he is. A man of no substance. All sizzle, no steak. Great appearances, until you look closely. Just like every other cheating spouse. You want to fight for him? Go ahead. I predict that not too long down the track you'll look back on the "fight" as the most futile endeavor of your life.

Sorry, but you are in the wrong place for help in working on your affair. Your affair won't last and this married man will dump you like a hot potato as soon as the ***** gets old. You are being used as a **' by a man who is not at all interested in marriage material but in a piece of side ***.


You forgot some important "values" of his:

1. DISHONESTY
2. DECEITFUL
3. UNFAITHFUL

The opposite of these "values" are what make the foundation of marriage. Without them, you have nothing. Which is why your affair will fail. It is doomed to failure because it is based on deceit and fraud. You won't get him.

But that is neither here nor there. He won't marry you because he has no intention of leaving his wife. He knows you are not marriage material because you sleep with married men and are easy; a deal breaker for most men.

All I can say is that I hope you are getting paid for putting out. At least a prostitute gets paid for her services. Don't put out for free! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Before I read the entirety of your posts, one question:

How do you know of your married man's state of marriage?

And I'll have a followup question.

Nevermind, don't bother answering my question.

Young lady, I have tee shirts older than you.

You listen to me.

You may be intelligent, but you are neither smart nor mature.

Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit and wash your hands of this cess pool.

Absorb all the MB principles - most notably honesty and integrity - and start over with another man.

Drop your time table. Can't you see that putting a time table on expected love and starting a family is giving priority to the wrong things?

I will not assist you further in going down your current destructive path.

WAT

Don't think I didn't expect to get 'fired' by some, actually, a lot of people on here.

I will stay posting for a while, to see if I get any constructive feedback.

I will abandon the thread if I feel it is pouring salt in too many wounds.

First of all, let me apologise to BS's on MB. My parents are divorced. My mom was a BW. My dad is now remarried (over 10 years) and my mom is recovered (mostly). I lived the pain of their unhappy marriage. A can be killer and I am not exaggerating when I say it almost drove my mom insane.

Now, I won't accept insults MelodyLane. But I understand your anger.

The BIG questions so far, "HOW DO I KNOW ...".

How does anyone know anything?

We DON'T. We believe, we hope, we pray and we take a chance.

It could turn out that he lied to me (I doubt it, but it very well could be). It changes NOTHING.

I don't make a habit of dating married men. And like I said, I want to start a family, so he would be the first and last man with this kind of baggage that I entangle myself with.

Questions please, or constructive comments only.

Reread Tempest's Everyone's Opinion Counts post calling for respect to all MB forum users

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2940129

I'm not going to bash you....because I think you might really believe in the legitimacy of your relationship with MM. But honestly, I don't understand how you can read extensively here at MB and STILL not see the forest through the trees.

This guy had FIVE YEARS to extricate himself from his marriage if that's really what he wanted to do. The fact that he hasn't...ought to be telling you something right about now.

OWs "buy into" the story that the MM tells them. As mentioned to you by several earlier posters, you don't have the true facts here. You're seeing second-hand through not only a WH's perspective, but through your own rose-colored glasses as well.

If you could see your situation without the emotional connection, you'd see what we see. And you'd do as WAT suggested...'run, don't walk, for the nearest exit'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AllsFair, of course you won't find the truth constructive, because it interferes with your fantasy. But you will hear it on this forum ANYWAY. You may not like that, but folks here will not tell you what you want to hear.

I pointed out the truth that everyone here, except you apparently, can see. You are being USED. As a PIECE OF ***. You are being used by a deceitful, manipulative man for your free goods. I am sorry you don't LIKE that truth, but it is the truth, dear.

You know, in some countries, women don't even have the RIGHT to choose her husband. Why would you squander that freedom on a lying, cheating scumbag who does not think that adultery is WRONG? Don't you know that what he does to his W, he will do to you? Isn't that a little foolish to try and marry an unfaithful, deceitful man? As my momma would say: DUH!

Honey, please put on your thinking cap and apply some thinking skills for once. Don't squander your freedom by being a fool. There are lots of decent guys out there who are marriage material.

So I will ask again if you are being paid for your services? At least a prostitute gets paid. Are you getting compensated in some way for putting out?

I really hope you are not putting out for free.

PS I am WELL over the age thing.

Seriously, patronising me based on my age - no good WAT. And what do your tee shirts have to so with anything, really?

I have absorbed MB's principles and I do understand honesty and integrity. That's why I want this to be opened up.

At the end of the day, either we work out, or we take what we've given each other, count our blessings and move on.

Oh and by the way, I keep a VERY close check on what he says about the M, because I am no home wrecker. If I even caught a wiff of connection from her to him or him to her I would be out of there like a shot.

Oh and WAT, I give myself a timeline on most things I do, not because it's unmoveable, but as a way of assessing my progress.

There is nothing 'clean' about commiting adultery. it isn't a fight you can 'win.'

Did you expose this affair to his wife? Did you have a nice sit-down chat with her and check his story? And if not, why not?

Have you talked with his family members and friends? Do they know about you? Or is MM still keeping you as his deep, dark secret?

THAT's how you know the relationship isn't legitimate. Because it's hidden from the view of all his important people. And if he keeps this information quiet on the grounds that it'll make trouble in his life. Then he's going behind everyone's back in a deceitful way.

Why would you want a man who doesn't have much of a qualm about deceiving the important people in his life?

I gave you the best constructive feedback possible. There will be none better.

You mean you don't really know? You're "believing" and hoping?

I'll say you're taking a chance.

Sure, disregard this advice because it's not what you want to hear.

Take it or leave it.

Assuming you leave it, I promise that in 10 years, if not sooner, you'll think back on this very moment and wish you had followed this advice.

Think of me as the Father you need right now. This Fatherly advice will not fail you.

WAT

You may know those values, but you do not practice them in your own life. And more importantly, they are not important values to you in a marriage partner.

Did it occur to you that marrying someone who is dishonest, deceitful and unfaithful might not make for a good marriage partner?



Yes, you are. Screwing someone else's husband is contributing to the wreckage of another marriage. You are a homewrecker just like him.


And of course you would never "catch a whiff" because a deceitful man will LIE. And you know he is deceitful.

But the proof is in the pudding. He won't divorce her and that should tell you ALL you need to know. WAKE UP!

MelodyLane


Just so you KNOW, aint no one getting nothing for free from me. I am enough work that he wouldn't have bothered if he didn't feel something real.

And I never said, adultry isn't wrong (read my most about my own parents). But we started how we started, it's a shame he held out for 5 years yes, but I know many people who stayed in abusive relationships for YEARS and took their time leaving.

MelodyLane ... careful with your words. I'm sure you've lived a perfect, angelic life all your years and you've dedicated yourself to stomping out the evil in this world. But calm yourself down in this thread. I never said I was perfect. I'm just here sorting my life out as best as I see and choose, taking risks that I AM YOUNG ENOUGH to afford to take.

Way to go Mel, I was thinking the exact same thing.

And how can you Plan A and B him when you are not even married to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Alls:

I must say, I've not seen a more clever, better rationalized misuse of MB methods before now.

There are a number of BIG things wrong with your approach, and why it won't work 2 use MB methods. But mainly:

&hearts;(edited: crap, the hearts thingy doesn't work anymore!) MB methods require RADICAL HONESTY. Having an A, or calling yourself a "sort of" isn't honest with yourself, much less the other parties involved.

I think you're smarter than this, but you're "fogged" and can't see that (no WS can see the fog from the fog).

You'll find, with time, that "constructive criticism" is seldom soft and fluffy. You want 2 be validated for the choices you've made, but you can't expect that here.

If you insist on continuing on this path, however, there are other forums that cater 2 this sort of self-destructive behavior - sadly.

-ol' 2long

Of course none of us are perfect. But none of us have to be perfect to recognize a fool's mission or to know right from wrong, do we? It's one thing to say you know something is wrong, but it means nothing if you don't practice those principles. Talk is cheap! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Ya have to walk the walk if you want to get any credit!


But are you getting paid as would a prostitute? At least she leaves the bed with something TANGIBLE in her hands. Since he is a married man, you leave with NOTHING because he is committed to someone else. He can walk off tomorrow [which he will] and you will have...........nothing.

So, I will ask again, are you getting paid for your services or are you putting out for free?

Your subject line is very telling to me. You refer to yourself as the OW- sort of. It tells me that you KNOW that you are the OW (of course you are, as you are involved with a married man). Bu then you follow up with "sort of".

Well you are or you're not. By definition you are. The "sort of" suggests that you are JUSTIFYING it. I suspect that you could actually see what is happening here but because you have seen the destruction first hand you are justifying it to yourself.

An affair is what it is. Pain is the ONLY result.

You are pleading with him for a healthy relationship and so far, he is unwilling to give to you. 7 months, BTW, is a very young relationship. You should be in the care-free, fun stage still. The fact that you are not should be telling you that all is not well. Coming here is telling you that all is not well.

Again, I refer to your subject line about having a "clean" fight....whatever that is (no sarcasim here, I just don't know what that is). In a healthy, worthwhile relationship there should not be a NEED to fight.

You have a family history of bad relationships with your parents and you state that you, at such a young age, have had several of your own. Whether you CHOOSE to see it or not, you are in another one. BE smart, BE a big girl and go out have someone you truely deserve. This guy does not sound like he is it. Think with your brain, not your feelings.