Reposted from another thread (Mulan's post):

I have tried to understand what made my WH change from a loving, caring, loyal and protective husband and father into a man who can ignore and emotionally neglect his family for hours and days on end and get roaring mad if anybody tells him this is hurtful. His solution for this is to shout that I should "Stop Being Hurt! Just Stop!"

???

My theory, if anyone is interested, is that WH grew up poor. I mean dirt-poor, white-trash poor. He readily admits this and talks about it a lot, usually disguised as funny stories about his crazy hillbilly family. But I saw the house he grew up in and spent a lot of time with his five brothers, one sister, alcoholic dad and prescription-med-addicted and non-working mother over the years (almost always at my house, not theirs.)

The trouble is, there is nothing about growing up poor and hungry and with nothing that prepares you to handle success if and when it happens. We read about this all the time with rock stars and athletes.

When success did happen for WH, he still had his poor-boy mentality of "if something is free, grab all you can, because too many other people want it too and it might not be there five minutes from now."

So, when he started climbing the corporate ladder and started getting all the perks that go with that kind of success - money, attention, admiration, free lunches, free dinners, and most of all loads of sucking up from the single women there - he had *no* idea in the world as to how to handle this.

He had no idea that this sort of stuff has to be put in its place so it doesn't take over your life. It never occurred to him that just because somebody offers something for free, you DON'T have to take it -- and hey, maybe you shouldn't.

In other words, he was like a kid in a candy store where all the candy is suddenly free. And he still is. His social life with his coworkers, especially the females, is the A-Number-One priority in his life. He will lie for it, he will tolerate suffering and chaos in his home for it, and he WILL get a divorce if that's what it takes to protect that social life.

To this day, he absolutely refuses to give up the Free Candy. He sold his soul for it, in my opinion, and gets roaring mad at anybody who tries to interfere with it - like me.

That's why he refuses to use POJA, because he would have to POJA these work-related social events -- the company-sponsored lunches, dinners, awards banquets, etc etc etc where spouses are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to attend -- and he might have to miss one in order to spend that time with his wife instead. Or he would have to go through the ultimate humilation of bringing his wife anyway and being seen with her instead of with whatever bimbo he can spend that time with instead.

So - does that sound like unmet ENs to anyone here?

To me, it sounds like a very successful corporate manager who got caught gorging on Free Candy and now simply cannot bring himself to admit that what he did was wrong. So he doesn't. It sounds to me like poor-boy mentality running smack into the responsible, trustworthy man. He is completely unable to resolve this conflict, so he orders me to "stop hurting" and constantly threatens divorce if I don't.

He has actually said that the things I am so upset about - going off-site with women from work for lunches, behaving in public like these women's escorts and dinner companions at the company-sponsored events, and getting emotionally involved with them through very personal emails and cards and gifts (and lying about all of this, of course) - he has readily admitted that he would never have done these things if the same women worked anywhere else. "That would be wrong." But he insists that if he works at the same company with the same women, that makes it perfectly all right.

This goes along with the fact that some people cannot resolve the conflict between who they believe themselves to be and the behavior that they've been caught doing.

WH honestly believes himself to be a noble and honorable man - and for the first ten years of our marriage, he was. That's why I loved him and that's why I married him - and that's why it's been so hard to walk away from him, because I remember very well who he was.

But when WH is faced with year after year of poor-boy-grabbing-free-candy behavior, he is completely unable to resolve the conflict between the two selves. So he blames me instead, goes right on placing his social life with his coworkers at the top of his priority list, and constantly threatens divorce if I don't rustle up enough self-esteem to learn to be happy with this arrangement.

In other words - if you get caught being an *ss, you can either face up to it, admit you screwed up, and correct the behavior - OR, you can:

1) decide that NOBODY is going to accuse you of being an *ss (constantly threaten to abandon or divorce your spouse if they object to your behavior)

2) admit to NOTHING (ignore and stonewall your spouse if they try to discuss the problems)

3) change your value system to accomodate what you did (come up with lines like "it would be wrong if she worked at a different company, but not if we work at the same place")

4) and (most important) refuse to correct the behavior - because if you correct it, that would be admitting it was wrong, now wouldn't it? (utterly refuse all attempts your spouse makes at working together to have a real marriage, like using POJA and learning to meet each other's emotional needs.)

And so it goes.

I'm not looking for sympathy. Really, I'm not. I only posted this becase (a) I'm trying to understand it myself, and (b) maybe it will help somebody else.

Oh, and because Mulan is starved for conversation today. Can anybody else relate to this sort of thing?
Mulan

Mulan,

Our husbands are similar in their "entitlement" yet come from completely different backgrounds. My H grew up in "priviledge" and so he always felt entitled to whatever he wanted. Like your husband....it was never a matter of unmet needs...it was unbridled selfishness and opportunity that my husband was accustomed to having. I don't remember if you and H have divorced yet, or whether you're still together....but my husband DID change. My conditions for reconciliation were pretty brutal.....so if he hadn't....I was really VERY prepared to move forward without him....a part of me was actually kind of anxious to do that in fact. He sensed my seriousness.....and made a complete about face. Can you fill me on where you folks have ended up?

I'd like to come back to this when I have more time. But quickly: poor or rich, perhaps he grew up without learning morals, at least ethics.

My FOO was dirt poor when I was growing up. But ethical behavior, church, golden rule, call it what you will, was front and center.

The poorer we were the more my parents made us share what we had.

Poor is not the case now for any of my family. But the ethical behaviors remain strong.

Sorry for the brevity. More of a conversational canapé than a meal…

With prayers,

PS: What was his father like?

PPS: Ken Lay of Enron also calls himself an honerable man, under oath.

star*fish: I'm still in the house, if for no other reason than I have an 18-year-old son here and I do NOT want some other female in here (permanently or otherwise) before DS18 can move out.

Aphelion: Didn't mean to imply that growing up poor = growing up without morals. Glad you brought that up. No, there was not only no money but no guidance in that house, either.

WH's father worked for large union factories, but would spend the money on alcohol, bowling and girlfriends.

His mother never worked at all. She had seven kids but did next to nothing around the house. She had a purse full of cigarettes and prescription pills and that's pretty much all she lived for.

They're both gone now.

Yeah, I can easily see WH ending up like Ken Lay. The rules don't apply to him. If something is free, it's that much better - it's like you get extra points if you can get something for free. And Free Candy is the best.

WH never learned that *nothing* is free. Nothing. And that's a terrible shame.
Mulan

Mulan,

I thought I remembered you separating at one point....I remember feeling really happy for you at that time, because it seemed that you were willing to enforce your boundaries. I was really hoping your situation might change. So are you planning on leaving when the 18 year old goes off to college?

I think that whether you grow up in proverty or plenty, if you don't manage to absorb any morals, you are in trouble. A person who grew up poor might be nearly overcome by the good things that roll in. A person from a wealthy family might have such a sense of entitlement that they believe they simply deserve everything that comes their way. You might have religious parents that go to church all the time but what if it doesn't sink in

If one grows up with an absentee dad, a detached, pill and nicotine fogged mom and no moral base, there's seems like a good chance there will be problems. I'd wonder if everybody in that kind of family ends up with the same problem? What about parents that love each other a lot but don't give time to their kids?

Cheaters are cheater because they want to be.

mulan...my xh is very similar.

he did not grow up in poverty, but his parents were lower middle class...and his dad from all accounts as we now know, cheated rampantly on his mother.

in a nutshell....my xh would always praise his parents, describing their relationship as "perfect and loving" when it was in reality anything but...and was almost ashamed of them...their lifestyle.

since that time he became much like your H, but my xh is now cfo of his own company...and employs his father and mother....a WS and a BS in severe denial with his dad's most recent long term affair just 3 years prior...with a client nontheless.

entitlement? my xh is the poster child of it.

and yes, he is neuvo riche.

he loved the character in the movie (heck I read the darn book and told him how good it was) midnight in the garden of good and evil...he liked character of the poor boy turned antique dealer/social paragon of savannah...quote from that character in the movie my xh used to laugh and laugh at and also quoted himself, "people used to call me neuvo riche....I just tell them it's the "riche" that counts".

Mulan,

my xWS was the last of 5 children. His siblings were all much older than he was and all out of the house and married.
He grew up as a "Spoiled little Brat"............he was used to get what he wanted and if not he just needed to "pout" a little and he "got it".

His mother spoiled him to death and he was always seen as the family's "Little Boy".

I have came to realize this many years later...........I was actually never really aware of it until he had an affair.

This is when I started to rethink our complete situation.

Throughout our relationship/marriage it had always been a great pleasure for me to react enthusiastic when my husband wanted something.
No matter what. If he wanted "Free-time" I made it possible. I cared for the children and made sure that he had the time for himself.
I cared for all the things in our business.
I did all the finances.
I cleaned the house.
I did the shopping.
I did the cooking.
I did the organizing.
I bought the cars.
I organized the workers for the new house we were building.
I held back the pain I was going through and how lonely I felt because I knew he didn't like to talk about problems.

After I found out about my husbands affair, I went to a therapist and explained our situation. Her remark was: Oh, you're "Mrs Organizer"!
She explained that I had put myself into this situation and it was up to me to get myself out of it again.

After many years and plenty of discussions, I have reached the level of feeling comfortable.
My husband understands the situation that we had throughout the years and has really grown up!!!!

During his affair, he was able to describe the feelings he had. He felt"Grown-up" and very responsible. xOW admired him. He let her believe that he was the Top Organizer.
He knew it was NOT true and yet he loved this feeling.

Mulan, I hope you understand what I am saying.

My xWS never grew up poor. He had a great childhood. Everyone loved and pampered him, just because. He didn't even have to do anything..............

This has really changed and it was NOT easy.

I've handed over a great deal of responsibilty to my husband and he's learned/learning to do it.

This should of happened from the beginning on.

BTW: xOW also grew up as a "Spoiled" single child. She got what she wanted throughout her life.

I don't think that it makes a difference whether you grow up poor or not. I myself had a good life until I was 14yo. I left home at that age and have been on my own since then. I had abit of finacial support until I was 18 and I always had to take responsibilty for my actions. I learned to become very carefull with what I did because I knew, no one was there for me if I did the wrong thing.

I grew up seeing so much pain in my life and I knew I never wanted to see anyone in pain caused by "me" if I could prevent it.

bb

Hi Mulan

I am very sad to see the state you're life has reached now because of WH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Squid was abandoned on th doorstep of her Grandmothers house when she was 9 months old, along with her 2 sisters while her mother left for the mystic east with her latest wastrel hippie boufriend. Her father was young, dumb and full of.. and couldn't possibly look after 3 girls under 5.

Squid's gran and granddad ( then approaching their fifties, and having raised their own 5 kids) set legal history in Englishlaw for wnning urdianship of the kids while both parets were alive and sane.

They were certainly not rich by any standards. Nan went back to work as a bus conductor, and Granddad worked as a council official. Squid has SOME issue with her childhood now, but none because they were poor.

As for me, I was born 16 year after my elder brother as a surprise to 42 YO parents. They were poor as church mice. Lived in a council house. We never had a fridge, a car or colour TV until the very late 70's. We used to wear hand-me-down clothes.

However there was no abuse, huge love and I remember an overwhelmingly happy childhood despite our financial poverty. Squid and I have done pretty well for ourselves since then, though not rock star rich of course !

I think that having a financially poor start in life actually made me more determned to do well, and to appreciate what I achieved once I got it.

I don't take any of my blessings for granted, andnot just because of my affair experiences either.

Fiends I grew up with who have done well after an unpromising start ALSO find themselves very appreciative of their success. I think if your H can blame any part of his childhood it may be his fathers alcoholism and his moms med addictions rather than the financial poverty. Just MO.

I pray things improve for you Mulan. You've been dragging his rock a really long time now.