If that question was directed at me Pio, we are all already in h*ll.

Finding our way out is the problem...

When there are differing beliefs, opinions, etc. it might be helpful to explore the concepts of "defending" vs. "fighting" for one's beliefs, opinions, causes, etc.

For me "defending" is a type of boundary, a fence, wall of protection. It says "Stop. This is as far as I allow you to go with regards to your attack. If you continue beyond this, I will protect myself, even if that means counter-attacking in response to your attack. It's your choice. You can hold true to your beliefs and retreat or continue with your attack."

I view "fighting" as actively projecting out towards others.... taking the initiative in trying to force one's beliefs, opinions, causes, etc. on others who disagree or may be neutral. There is a conscious intent to intimidate, punish, or destroy others who refuse to accept your way of seeing an issue.

Second thought...
How does one go about proving something didn't happen? For example, did the parting of the Red Sea really happen? Response: "You can't prove it didn't!" So that's proof that it did happen?? Huh?????

What exactly constitutes "proof"? Much is based on what premise you start with. Carbon dating? Literal biblical interpretation? Carbon dating presumes that each part of the process utilized is valid, e.g. Does it really measure what it's intended to measure? Is the process reliable...can it be duplicated 100% of the time? Heck, in the future we may find our "premises" were raw, primitive, in terms of what we later discovered. We once thought that the atom was the smallest particle of matter. Look at the jump from our initial understanding of physics to quantum
physics!

For me,literal biblical interpretation assumes that there was no human error, that God literally dictated each word, each sentence of the Bible in order to guarantee it's accuracy. If "error" did occur, God met with a group of chosen ones who sorted through the various scriptures to determine which were accurately written.

I have never seen a physical "God" who speaks with a human voice that can be heard with the human auditory system. None of my family or friends report having this experience. Does this prove it couldn't have happened?? Perhaps it's a reflection of my lack of faith, or a vision/hearing impairment, or refusal to try and hear "Him". Perhaps it was a "miracle", a one time event which cannot be duplicated.

I don't find consistency from the Old to the New Testament. Many times in the O.T. statements are made to the effect of, "This is how it shall be for evermore. Unchanging. God has deemed it to be so." OK, so let's say I accept statements to that effect as being literal, dictated by God. How can this possibly be true when one moves into the New Testament only to find that dictates, beliefs, statements in the O.T. are no longer applicable?? Either something is unchanging, for evermore...or it isn't. God certainly has the right to change His mind, but this is not in keeping with what He dictated in the OT. Evermore is evermore...unless I change my mind. Huh???

None of this precludes me from believing in the existence of a Creator, a Higher Power that some call "God". It doesn't create confusion for me in looking at "science". Science only leads me to marvel more at the "miracle" of how extensive and wonderful the way "life" functions. And most of it functions quite well without we humans having to stick our little hands into it to make it happen!

And the beat goes on.......

My question was not directed at anyone in particular. Just being surrounded by 6 million muslims on any given day and an additional 2 million during Haj season, it is a question I sometimes ask myself. Since the issue of path width came up, I was curious exactly how wide the path was although it is by definition narrow. But how narrow is narrow?

On the other hand, I really liked the explanation from the college student who had to answer the thermodynamics question as to whether he11 was an endothermic or exothermic process.

That was a wonderful post heartmending. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And what was his answer? I'm slow so don't smack me one if that was the joke in it's entirety, or even if it wasn't a joke. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Can be found here:

Is he11 an endothermic or exothermic process?

an unBiblical example of what I will fight for:

My son, who wasn't breathing when he was born, has myriad disabilities. (He's 21 now)

In the last month or so, he and I have been going through all the letters I wrote, as well as all the medical, psych and educational testing, etc. he went through while in school.

I "saw/heard" myself go through a five year cycle. First, I was irritated, then terrified, then begging, then I got pi$$ed, and not just a little. I began to fight - and whatever compassion I had for the district, the teachers and the educational system at large WAS GONE. This wasn't about THEM, it was about MY SON.

I could write a very long response right now about the struggles he went through, however it's been discussed on this site before... specifically and recently on a post begun in Recovery by Daisy. At the worst of it, my son was suicidal (at eight years old) and did try to hang himself.

My son's life was (and IS) worth fighting for... and forgive me for putting it this way, but... screw anyone who tried to keep him down. I have no compassion for a system that almost killed him physically and darn near emotionally.

So, while I believe in compassionate care as a first line response... and hope and pray it *works*... if it doesn't... I go into fight mode.

I'm not totally comfortable with it, obviously, or I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

Still, I wouldn't change a thing in the way I handled my son... except maybe to have gone into fight mode MUCH SOONER.

Sometimes compassion is enabling. I've seen the results of it.

Yo 2long.

Instead of bantering on this thread, I went to Mars to check on your fav rover.

No one can prove I didn't.

WAT

To me, discussing religious beliefs is so interesting.

It shows how different we all are.

Take me, for example.

Yes. I have been going through somewhat of a spiritual crisis since discovering my H's affair..a lot of my beliefs have been trampled on...especially I have turned away from institutionalized religion..which has been a major part of my life since I can remember...

However, I have never turned away from Jesus with whom I have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP as MM describes. I FEEL the SPIRIT often. I FEEL that I have personally been touched by HIM and continue to do so as HE grants me HIS BLESSINGS as I remain righteous in my belief in HIM...Just part of my personal testimony..not necessary to recount here now. Let's just say I fully believe in miracles...

For me, MBers has been a Blessing. I believe that God led me here. The teachings from Forever and the teachings and counseling of MM have actually strengthened my faith. MM kept encouraging me to FIGHT EVIL and to maintain my trust in the Lord as I struggled with my H's infidelity. It was the Lord that was with me during my darkest hours..as has been true throughout my entire life. I was a little girl who loved the song.."Jesus Loves Me This I Know..for the Bible tells me so..." LOVE THAT SONG!!!

More importantly, FH and MM have helped me to continue to grow in my LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE of others..regardless of their beliefs, religion, color, gender....

For me, GOD IS LOVE... so I am more open than ever to other viewpoints that are different than mine..open to hearing and learning from WAT and 2Long and Mulan and even Lemonman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> who look at the world differently than I do...

Interesting....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh, as what it teaches...I agree. It doesnt diminish the story. The issue I have is that so many do not take the literal parts of the Bible literally. The Bible has a very distinct way of setting apart stories/parables/etc, from fact. About 5 yearsa ago, I took a whole two day study just on how the Bible is written and how that works.

Which, when I read the accounting of the Great Flood, I do not see the writing style that told us that it was just a story. So, for now...since the Bible reads as a literal event, and no one has yet proven it did not happen...I must accept on faith that this is true. But my faith is not without factual basis and reason. It is NOT a leap into the dark, as many suggest.

Where di all of the water go? Dunno. I do know that God is not confined by His laws. He is not confined by time, or gravity, or matter. He transcends all of that. So, if there is a God, and He did create the Earth...isnt it within His skill set to be able to create enough water to flood the Earth? Sure.

Again, the HOW of this is not written in the Bible. And sicne we have yet to get scientific fact concerning the veracity of this event, then we are just left with the Biblical accounting.

Just as many said there were no Baths of Bethesda...until they were discovered recently...the veracity of what we know about the Bible lends credence to my faith that the parts we do not know are indeed factual.

Hope I explained how I view this well enough.

In His arms.

Very true, Pep. But to me, the difference is that this fiction held true to the nature of God, to who Jesus was and is. This current movie and book do not.

In His arms.

Oh, thanks UVA. I do try to do that, as my faith is not based on just make believe.

Anyone who knows me knows I hate being wrong. So, if I am...I want to know it so I can change what I am thinking or doing. So, I am always questioning my position on things. On everything.

That is why I actual enjoy all sides of these debates. It challenges me...it makes me search for the truth.

Thanks UVA.

In His arms.

I DID read the book, but it has been so long ago... Can someone who is familiar with Christianity AND who read the DVC remind me...

What are the fundamental differences being purported in DVC compared to what is in the Bible?

I just want to be clear what we are "discussing".

Mortarman, I know you haven't seen the movie, but did you read the book (DVC)?

Simply asking because I'm curious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lori

Well, I typoed the "wife"...it was supposed to be "wide." Personally, I am non-denominational. I only attend church where they teach the Bible...and nothing else. I dont get into the arguments about "immersion" baptism versus sprinkling. Or whether the deacons control the church or the pastor. All not of my concern. My concern is what God has to say. Period. I will let you know this...if it were "Mortarman's path," I would have chosen one much different than the one outlined by God.

I attended a baptist church for many years. Then one day, another couple we are good friends with sat together in service one day. The pastor came in and said we were going to have a joint-faith service the next Sunday at a local park. We were like "great!!" But, then we found out what faiths we were joining with. Sure, there were the baptists, and Assembly of God, and the Catholic church, and the Methodists, etc. But then we saw on the list the Universalist unitarians, who are distinctly not Christian.

We approached the pastor afterwards and asked why we were havign a prayer vigil with a non-Christian church. And we asked that they be un-invited or that our church pull out of the service (even though our church set it all up). He would not do that...so we left that church.

Why? Because the Bible is very clear on such things. So, I do not care what some Baptist church says, or what ForeverHers says, or what Weaver says...I care what Scripture says. So, if someone tells me that something is of God, I will go and research it. I will find out if it is indeed in line with what He has written. If it is, then great. If it isnt, then it is clearly not of God.


No proof?? There is much proof! Even Scripture says that just the Earth and Heavens speak to who He is. But you question about freewill is answered like this: just because God gave usa freewill, did not mean He gave up His freewill. He is God. He is the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe. In the end, we are created beings. We belong to Him, and He has every right to make up the rules as He deems fit.

ultimately, we are given the narrow path because He wants to know that we love Him. That is why we were created in the first place. But love assumes that the person has the choice NOT to love. God has set forth the rules on how we are to love Him. Just as we set forth the rules on how our spouses love us (such as...you cant have sex with someone else!!). As He said, if we love Him, then we will obey His commands. It is that simple.


Because He loves us! Because He loves us enough to have given us a way out of the predicament that we got ourselves into do to freewill. If God just accepted us no matter what we have done, no matter if we obeyed His rules...then He would be unjust and unholy. He still loves those in ******. He loved them enough to let them choose ******.

And we all get that choice to make.


I never ask anyone to accept MY views on this. I ALWAYS point people to Scripture and to God. I am not the author of the book, and I am not God. This is not my universe and not my show. And I think Fh will tell you the same thing. But I do believe if you considered completely what God has done, what we have done...and how He went the extra mile out of love to save all of us...I think you would understand that he did the only loving thing He could for those that turned their backs on Him right from the beginning.


What is your definition of a Christian?


I am on no such mission. I have not the power to convert even one person. Were I to think that, I would be placing on me a power I do not possess.

No person on this planet converted me. Sure, there were people that planted the seeds, that introduced me to Scripture...to a loving God. But they didnt convert me. They didnt even try. They jsut told me the truth, showed me why it is the truth...and left me to make up my own mind. "Come, let us reason together."

I was converted by Jesus Christ Himself. Before that happened, I was doubtful. I didnt know Him, so I believed much of what you do. But then one day He choose to meet me. You see, it wasnt me finding Jesus, as if He was the one who was lost. It was Jesus finding me, for I was VERY lost! And in love, He put out His hand and asked me to follow Him. To lay everything down and put my life in His hands.

He gave me a choice. And He respected my choice to love Him, just as He will respect those that choose not to love Him. And as I said before, He has said that the only way to love Him is to obey His commands. We do not get to choose how to love Him. He is God...it is His show.

I know the doubts you have concerning what Scripture says. but as FH is always saying on here...that really isnt the question that we should be asking ourselves. Those questions can be answered, once we have the answer to THE question:

Who do you say Jesus is?

And make no mistake, EVERYONE will choose who they think He is. I have no say in that. I am only called to speak what He has asked me to speak. The rest is the responsibility of each individual.

My daughter and youngest son are saved. My oldest is not yet. he asks many questions...he is Thomas, he wants proof. And we have continued to reason together.

But I dont force it down his throat. It is his life, and his relationship with Jesus...not mine. In the end, if I do my part by teaching him the Word and showing him what God expects...then if He chooses not to love Jesus, then that is not my concern. Sure, I would be sad. As I am sad with many that I will not see in Heaven. But if God respects their choice...I must also.

Again, I cannto speak for FH or anyone else. But when you write these things about me, I wonder if you actually read what I am saying...or if you are jsut reacting to content that you dont agree with. I do not force anythign on anyone. I speak what Jesus has told me to speak, and leave it up to you to decide.

Knowing, that when you do coem face-to-face with Him, that you will be without excuse. As we all are.

As always, I remain:
In His arms.

Read the book...not going to see the movie.

In His arms.

Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lori

Do you think Jesus would have refused to sit next to the non-believers or do you think he would have invited them in? Really, to me your behavior was very selfish, fearful, and the very opposite of humble. I don't doubt you are a nice person, but wouldn't it have been better to model your faith to others than to protest being in their presence? What else won't you do or support around people of other faiths?

Great question, Hobbs! And I did not want you to get the idea that this is how I am.

Would I want to sit next to unbelievers? Sure!! Would I want to witness to them? Yes! Do I want a service where unbelievers led the service and say prayers that God does not hear? No.

A worship service is for those that believe in Him to worship Him. I have no problem with the unitarians coming in and being a part of the service in the audience, as long as they are not running the service. Only the truth should be spoken in a Christian worship service.

Our contention with our pastor was that the leaders of the unitarian church would be a part of the service, would offer prayers and preach. And that is clearly NOT allowed by Scripture!

Hope that clears up what I meant.

In His arms.

One more thing Hobbs, as I dont think I answered your questions fully.


I think Jesus hung out where unbelievers were. I think it was the unbeliever that he was trying to reach.

I also know He walked into the church and began dumping over tables and whipping people who had turned His Father's house into something that was clearly NOT in keeping with His Father's commands.

So, what do I think Jesus would do in that situation? I think my ex-pastor and the other leaders responsible for this would possibly be very close to being "whipped" themselves.

In His arms.