Thanks for everything... I think I too have had it and need to stop saying I'm sorry for my feelings and probably call her D bluff more in the way ManInMotion says. This could be really bad since I think she would go that route just because she thinks it will end her pain. I don't want that - but I also need to have more respect for my feelings.

One more thing...Is it a bad idea to contact the other BS to see what she really knows. I don't know her well, but I have met her about 6-7 times at company functions. I fear that this could come back at me. Its been about 4 months since d-day and my W says she *thinks* they are in MC. Like she doesn't know...

Dazed, please listen to me. You've waited this long, now get your strategy in place. Don't fly by the seat of your pants here. Personally I think it is a great idea to talk to OM's W. Information is power. Knowing what you are dealing with can only help you. But you need to have a plan. Before you do anything find out about your legal rights regarding your child if that will ease your mind. If you know you are ready to tell you're W NC is a dealbreaker, then go for it. If she won't leave her job then exposure needs to follow. Truthfully I'm not sure when's a good time to talk to the OM's W. Hopefully some of the experts here can advise you on that. She can be a real ally if she wants to save her M.

The conversation that MIM describes is a good example of conversing with a fog-bound WS. Orchid has some great info on fogbabble. When my H was in withdrawal and I couldn't stand it I did something probably very un-MB-like, but I think it worked for me. I said, "H, if your love with OW is so special and beautiful then go follow your bliss. If it's so beautiful then you shouldn't mind everyone knowing about it."

I think that it's a good idea - if they are up to it. In my case, the OMGF does not want to have anything to do with me. I tried contacting her once, and was told never to contact her again. I subsequently found out that she was angry with me for taking my FWW back after D-Day instead of kicking her out. And interestingly enough, she's back with the OM. if the stories I've heard about her are true (online EAs), I think she's just as screwed up as the OM, and they both deserve each other.

Yes, I'd like to hear what the OMGF feels about this situation, but I'm not sure it's going to be all that helpful.

In your case, you have more experience interacting with the OMW, so I'd say go for it if you really feel you need to do so. Getting over the first minute or two of awkwardness is going to be difficult though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I suggest arranging for the meeting in "neutral territory".

BTW - your meeting the OMW is probably going to drive your (F)WW and the OM nuts when they find out. They'll probably start wondering if their lies match up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I suggest that you do NOT let either of them know that you're meeting with the OMW, otherwise you really have to.

...then you need to concentrate on showing her that D will lead to even more pain than what she's currently experiencing.

Question: have you ever asked her why she wants to stay M'd to you? Why she wants the M to recover?

Having her quit her job is not an ultimatum. It's part and parcel of a fixed boundary that you have set...to wit, you will not allow another man to intrude into your marriage. I wouldn't worry about whether she sees it as an ultimatum or not. She's an alien right now, deep in the fog, and her ability to reason logically has been severely impaired.

Dazed, you are going at this helter-skelter. I don't see any coherent plan to break up this adultery and bring your wife's focus back to the marriage. Specifically, I don't see where you've used your most powerful tool--exposure.

I will be blunt, expose this adultery to the Human Resources Director where she works or your marriage may well be forfeit. So long as they can maintain their sordid little secret there and continue to work together, the adultey is ongoing and can flare back up into outright sexual activity with the slightest spark.

Write a formal letter (registered mail) or go to the HR director in person. Lay out the facts and ask them what they are going to do about it.

Scrolling up in your thread, I see you've received advice to expose from several informed individuals. You haven't done it yet. Apparently, you fear her temper or you're trying to avoid embarrassing her in the workplace. Dazed, marriages can survive lots of anger and tons of embarrassment but they can't survive having a third person in them.

The answer to whether you should meet with OMW is a resounding, "H3ll yes!" By exposing to OMW and having her work with you to smash this obscenity up, your chances are much improved.

Mister, you've got a LOT of work to do. If you keep sitting on your hands and watching the world go by, you will lose your marriage. Are you going to get to work?

MIM - I've asked why she wants to stay in the M and it is because of our son. That's what she says. I believe she really wants to for other reasons as well... but she won't say that. She is really stubborn - knows she did very wrong - but doesn't want to own any of this - nor its solution. Heck we just finished building a new house - moved in 1 week before D-DAY. so ungrateful huh?

Longhorn - The A has been exposed to her entire family and mine. Most of my friends know - but hers not. Also I haven't jepardized her work situation. Why? I guess because I fear that will just seal the D. Your right though - if her workplace knew - that would remove only people that she thinks still respect her.

My W isn't talking to anyone about this. If believe she is internalizing a lot of guilt, anger and pain. I really feel sorry for her situation. But I guess I also need to be concerned about mine and my sons.

I fear the possibility of D more than anything. Even more so, I fear a very bitter D where my son becomes a pawn. Those are reasons why I haven't dropped the final hammer.

Yes, my W is horrible for what she did... I need to keep remembering that to help me through this. While she looks like the person I married, she really is not on the inside right now.

Everyone is right... I need establish my boundaries...

1.) No contact with OM - someone must leave
2.) Must resume going to counseling - even if it is just for her to work through her issues initially.
3.) Must work to rebuild marriage

The problem with #1 is I know that she will say no way and that I will need to follow up with exposure. I'm having a hard time building courage to do that.

Can you explain to even yourself how your current circumstances are any better than being divorced? There is life after divorce. I'm living proof of that. What you're letting happen is slow death.

Alright Dazed - looks like you haven't walked away from MB for a little while to follow up on some of the advice you've been given. What gives? What are waiting for to happen? Are you waiting for the other shoe to drop? The other shoe is dropping in slow motion right before your eyes!

1) There is no "right" opportunity when to expose. This should have been done on D-day!

2) YES! Call the OMW! When my FWH told me he wasn't seeing the OW during plan A, I called the OW myself and we compared notes! You can't imagine the words I don't usually use came out of my mouth!

Most importantly, get your legal rights squared away immediately! IF you CHOOSE to NOT prepare yourself for D, (chances are your W could be preparing for D as well) you will be worse off than you are right now.

So STOP over analyzing what your WW is telling you. Your betrayed emotional state of mind will play tricks on you. Set it aside and start preparing yourself and your son for the possibility of a D. We know it's NOT what you want. BUT there is that possibility. It happens!

When and if it should happen, you will be prepared. In fact, the next time your W threatens you with the D, ask her:

1) "Is that what you really want?" Say nothing else. Just listen. If she gives the "you deserve better" answer, say:

2) "Is that how you really feel?" Again say nothing. In fact do NOT give away your emotion or expression. Nod a few times if you have to.

In other words, don't give any of your opinions because it won't matter to her. Just answer her in a question format CALMLY.

If it escalates to her threatening you with the D, again be calm and ask this "REALITY QUESTION":

1) "Where will you go?" Personally, if it were me, I'd point her the door and say, "If that's what you want, there's the door!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> What this question does is that it establishes that YOU are NOT the one leaving your home or the family. It also tells her that YOU CAN'T force her to stay. This is totally OPPOSITE of what she would expect from you. And THIS might be a reality check for her that she needs because NOW she has to "THINK" what her options are. As long as the OM is still living w/his W, she knows she can't just move out and shack out w/the OM. And IF your W runs to the OM, guess what do you think will happen? Your W will be faced with 2 options:

1) Give the OM an ultimatum to leave his W so that they can finally live out their "fantasy". Now, the OM is also faced with the ugly reality of his A.

2) She moves out and she finally get to face the consquences of the A.

Remember, stay calm. Let her talk. If she sounds like she's got a plan and tells you abou it, just say, "Okay". Then WALK AWAY. LEAVE the room. In fact, just leave the house and take your son for an ice cream , walk the neighborhood or something. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING MORE because nothing you say will matter. If anything else, your action will drive her nuts and confused. She needs that!

But for now, get some legal advice.

...then the next time you talk to her, you might want to try focusing on the damage she's doing to the M by continuing to be a cause for your unhappiness, ask her what effect she thinks that would have on her son, and ask if she still believes that keeping her current job is the best thing to do in this situation.

Dazed, I wrote you a post that got lost in cyberspace. I hate when that happens. Since then you've already received several more posts that are great. Star in particular ssid it all.

I ended my lost post to you with these wrods. "Take your power back." Your very foggy, very deceptive, lying, manipulative WW is now running the show here. That's the unfortunate truth! You need to do what Star said and get your affairs in order. You wrote:

"The problem with #1 is I know that she will say no way and that I will need to follow up with exposure. I'm having a hard time building courage to do that."

I don't think you ever gave your W a real choice here. Meaning "WW, you can choose to continue working with OM, but then you'll need to leave." She's continuing to hold all the cards because she's been allowed to so far.

I didn't need to expose my H's A because he implimented NC. If your W refuses to do that you have no other choice if you want to save your M. Unless you want to live in this tortured state indefinitely. Stop trying to control this. Do you know the Serenity Prayer? After D-day I said that prayer a lot. Still do. Here it is:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

You can't control what your W will choose to do. Whether she will get her soul back and her integrity, or not. But you can choose the life you want. Your W had sex with the OM, maybe many times. She is now working next door to him, and goes out to business lunches. This is not acceptable. I've told this story often here, but I think it made my H pay attention. When he was in deep withdrawal and I couldn't stand it I told him, "You know, this isn't all about YOU choosing me. I need to decide if I want to choose you now." TAKE YOUR POWER BACK!!! Start getting your strategy together. Put your armor on and get ready for the battle!

Update... still in a mess... I walked away from MB for a while and tried to do the things mentioned here... this is what's happened...

Last Tuesday, I called the OW. She never returned my call... but apparently told her H about it. He told my W and she went ballistic. She told me she was at work and picked up some for-rent books and had a list of lawyers to call. That was on Wednesday. I asked if that is what she really wants to do and she said yes. So I didn't stop her...

Not much happened on Thursday - Friday except that she didn't talk to me at the house. Basically I got the silent treatment. Oh and she always had the Rental magazines with her in her day bag. Obviously for me to see.

On Saturday morning, she came up to me and apologized for being so crazy lately. Wuw! We did a few projects on the house that day. Things were somewhat normal.

On Sunday we were supposed to go to a birthday party with our son as a family. This was at one of my relatives houses. My W seems very concerned about what other people think and said she was going to run errands instead. So I ask, "Are you going to look for apartments"? She ends up saying maybe she will and makes a big production of getting out the paper and making calls.

I end up going to the party with my son and she goes out looking. Doesn't find much except for one apartment about 20 miles away that would meet her standards.

We end up having a converstation about her have NC with the OM and how she needs to go back to MC with me. She says she doesn't want to leave the only place where people still respect her and going to MC just makes her feel bad.

She knows exactly what I want her to do but won't make any moves in that direction. I don't believe that she is have a PA at this point. But I do think she is still fogged.

The other part of the this story is that we just built a house and moved in during the Affair. My W makes constant comments regarding moving forward with stuff on the house (landscaping and etc)... but at the same time makes comments about Divorce and moving out.

What does she really want?

I know I've made mistakes in this process... I told my MC that yesterday. She advised against me telling people at her work early on... I told her that advice was bad in retrospect and that had I did that - she probably wouldn't be in this job anymore. I do however believe that exposing it now will appear vindictive especially if we head to divorce. I don't want that used against me.

I've tried giving her the exactly same silent treatment back - but in reality it is just pushing her further away. Everyone is right - this is dying a slow death. And I can't keep up with her and her games.

Is there anyway to talk to a fogged out W who is very stubborn? I need to find a way to calmly tell her what I need (NC and MC) to move forward with our M without it being confrontational. She turns everything into a confrontation.

Write it in an email or in a letter!!!

I accomplished almost as much by not talking to her directly as I did talking directly.

It is hard to get defensive toward a letter or a computer. LOL. Plus all of the symantics were gone. We would talk for a half hour regarding how I worded something or how she interpreted it. I asked her to read it at least twice then we could talk about it later.

I also told my FWW that all conversations we had would end if she brought up a D. No sense in talking if you want a D. A few times after that she did and the conversation ended. I would not grovel for her not to D me or apologize for making her want a D. She did it one more time and I got out the yellow pages and opened it to D lawyers and handed her the phone. She told me to stop being so dramatic I said I am not being dramatic. I will not be threatned into ending a fight with those words and I do not want to be with someone that wants a D. Should I start dialing or are you going to.

Lastly it takes two people to be in a confrontation. If it gets confrontational take a time out. Say "I can see that this is going down a road I do not want to take. I need a little time to gather my thoughts so we can have a productive conversation." then walk away. Do not take the bait and become confrontational.

Letter... good... I've been working on one of those compiled from some other that I've seen here... Sorry its long, but I'd like some advice on changes that I should make to it.

Here it is...

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand that no one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he know by now that I love him? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith or because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions and want to talk about our relationship. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need for discussion stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

So, now we are at a fork in the road. The direction on the Right points to separation and divorce. The direction on the Left points to a life where we try to make this work respecting each others feelings and needs. I don’t know what lies down each road or how each road will go. Both have their own problems. I do know that the road we are on is not working.

When I try to have discussions with you, you repeatedly tell me you want to go Right. I don’t honestly believe that you feel that way otherwise you would have left by now.

I do believe that you love me. I do believe that you enjoy and love the life and family that we have built together. I also believe that you don’t regard our relationship as a mistake. I don’t want to go down this road – but will follow along if you feel that is what you must do.

If you want to join me down the Left road, you will have to work with me on issues to rebuild trust and love in our marriage. Trust is earned and not given. I do have it in me to forgive you for the past. If I didn’t I would not be writing this letter.

To accompany me on this road, I can not accept your contact with <HIM>. I’ve tried over the past few months, but it eats at me daily. In March, you told me that you were truly sorry about everything that had happened. I believe you. You also told me that you had 3 weeks left on your project. That project was important to you and I believed that you would consider other options once it was complete. This has been a very difficult time for me and I’m sorry that I am asking you to make this kind of decision.

I also need you to start accompanying me to marriage counseling. Not to dwell in the past, but to work on our marriage to make it better.

So, here I am, standing at the fork in the road. I’m facing left, ready to go. Will you join me here?