My H was a drug user and about a year after d-day he decided to stop. I consulted my H`s uncle who has been a regular 20 year member of AA. He has done the meetings twice a week all these years, he goes to speak in prisons and the special AA functions as well.

H and I had a long talk with his AA uncle...and the uncle`s W who had also been through the AA program three times.

My H then attended just a handful of meetings. I attended one with him because I was curious. And then H stopped going. He never did the program. I think he did the first step or two but didn`t go further. He mentioned the step of making amends and told me he didn`t think he could to do that.

He`s been completely clean for 5 years now. He has not had one puff of pot. He also stopped drininkg at the same time although he did not have a problem with alcohol. His AA uncle recommended no mind altering substances of any kind ever and H has stuck faithfully by that.

At first my H`s reluctance to do the program greatly worried me. But here we are 5 years later with no relapse. I don`t worry about this anymore. That`s not to say I don`t think he could never fall back....it`s just no longer something I worry about on a daily basis.

The funny thing is that I know a few people who did do the WHOLE program...some more than once who are now active substance abusers. Including AA Uncle`s now former W.

From this I have drawn the conclusion that each person is different. AA is not going to help every substance abuser, and not every substance abuser need to do the AA program.

It all boils to personal will. If you want to be clean you will. If you don`t, you won`t.

I do believe that AA is a great program for people seeking tools to accomplish sobriety. But if the personal will is not there all the tools in the world will not cut it.

This is very true, Daisy. All that is required to make it is a strong DESIRE and the willingness to go to any length to get it. In all the years I have been in AA, I have never seen a person fail who really worked the program and was willing to go to any length to get it. IT's a real simple program for very stupid people.

Even so, if a person decides to stay drunk, that is not the fault of AA, but the fault of the person who made that choice, the DRUNK. The buck always stops right there.

Melody,

Do you ever wish you could have just one drink?

I ask you this because my H will periodically mention this. As I posted above, he never had a problem with alcohol but his aa uncle counselled him to never take another drink. However occasionally H will mention this....he says "I don`t necessarily agree with the no booze policy"

When he says this I answer "I don`t know what to tell you H...I am not the expert...but your uncle is...if you don`t agree with this then you should speak with him to gain clarification"

The uncle did clarify this point 5 years ago by telling us that addictions are interchangeable. He explained to us that although H wasn`t an alcoholic he could fall into to that once he stopped smoking pot.

This makes sense to me....but I don`t think I am the one who should debate this with H.

Still H has not touched a drop of alcohol. I am 100% certain of this. He`s not touching it but he does not agree with the policy.

What do you make of this?

Mel

"In all the years I have been in AA, I have never seen a person fail who really worked the program and was willing to go to any length to get it."

Isn't this a personal opinion? How do you know who really worked the program? Is every failure because they didn't work the program?

What about the success stories like Daisy's H. That flies in the face of what AA says. He was supposed to be powerless over his addiction.

As you stated it is up to the drunk. I understand your belief in the program. It works for you.

As far as not recruiting is that really true. When I read through this board and someone asks about Alcoholism people "strongly recommend" getting into AA. These people are usually in AA themselves. Is this not a form of recruitment?

But AA does have something to prove. Their success rate. So far I have not found one published report that puts AA success rate above that of spontaneous remmision. Meaning people that were inclined to quit drinking on their own. If AA encourages people to go to meetings and work the steps and tells them they are successful shouldn't there be some proof of that. AA tells people that sobriety through the program is a life long commitment. As you stated you have never seen someone fail that works the program. Thats an awful lot of commitment so wouldn't you say they should get proof their commitment makes sense.

"Before AA, NO ONE made it. Now, at least some can."
This is not even close to the truth. People did quit drinking before AA. Before AA and the "designation" of alcohol as a disease there may not have been studies but it doesn't mean NO ONE made it. Please do not tell me through the entire history of man and alcohol that before AA nobody ever quit drinking.

Again if that were the case nobody could quit unless they went to AA and that is not the case.

When this thread started I knew some of my statments were the cause of it. What got my dander up was how judgemental the thread was in regards to not speaking about what you didn't know.

One more question. Do you have to quit drinking before you start the steps or do the steps help you quit drinking.

YOH -


Just curious if you could elaborate on what you don't like about Alanon a bit. Is it just the philosophy that we are powerless or is it other stuff? What have you found that gives you the most support strength for dealing with your wife's alcoholism? Just wondering because I like to learn from everyone's different ideas and philosophies on how they glean strength and courage to deal in these situations.

Thanks,
RH

I know this wasn`t directed to me but this is where I found my source of strength.

I decided that I was not willing to live with an active substance abuser anymore. It was that simple.

Once I realised I had no control over my H but I had full control over my own circumstances I knew I had the power in my life.

Setting that boundary changed my whole outlook on the situation.

While I am very glad H is no longer using drugs I no longer really worry about because I know how I would handle a relapse. While I would prefer not to ever divorce my H...If I had to I would. And I would be fine.

Perhaps my clear boundary helps my H to keep the promise to himself.

RH,

I would rather not comment on what I didn't like. It may sound judgemental of the people that are there I think.

What helps me through her recovery is my children. No matter what she does to stay sober it is the best for them. I did not like her when she was drinking so what are my choices. I man up and move forward.

Perhaps people can quit without AA but I doubt a person can quit without getting some sort of information on the nature of substance abuse and some type of support. But you can find information and support from a variety of sources. Some people need more support than others.

My grandfather was an alcoholic...he eventually died from cirrohsis of the liver. When discussing this with my mother I asked her if he ever tried to stop. She told me that back in those days (40`s and 50`s) there was no AA....if you wanted information or wanted support to help you stop you had very few options. You`d have to jump through hoops to get help. You had to risk exposure and judgement to get information and help.

The fact that today you can go to an AA meeting any day at any time, it costs nothing, and you are surrounded by those who will not judge you I think has made it easier for more people to seek help. And in this day and age addictions are not as stigmatizing as the were 50-60 years ago. I think AA played an important role in removing the humiliation of being addicted.

I think there are as many people who fail at AA as there are people who succeed. About 50% And of the 50% who fail they either don`t really want to stop the addiction OR AA is not the right program for them. And not everyone needs a FULL program either.

One size does not fit all.

Daisy

You are echoing what I said re the program. However AA does not have a 50% success rate. Depending on where you look including AA information it is more closer to 5% on a high estimate.

The one common denominator seems to be the addict realizing they have had enough.

I am with you when it comes to not living with an addict. My FWW understands this as well. As a matter of fact I asked her to get sober so I could leave her. She now knows she has something to lose if she starts again.

Yes, it is a failure to work the program. The program does not "work" us, after all; we have to work IT. You have this backwards. Those that work it, and are willing to go to any length, make it. If someone decides to drink again, it is always because of THEIR OWN CHOICE. AA did not make that choice for them.

If someone really desires to stop drinking and will commit to the program, they do make it.


No. It doesn't "work" for anyone. People have to WORK IT.


Of course not. We are not AA representatives. We are only alcoholics who don't drink anymore thanks to the 12 steps of AA. AA does not recruit and is not trying to drum up membership.


No, they have to prove nothing. They make no claims except about what has worked for them. Again, they are not recruiting and have nothing to prove. There are NO published or non-published reports on AA "success" because AA doesn't keep records. Therefore there are NO accurate statistics. NONE. If you require proven statistics, then AA isn't your program.

yoh, there really is no need for all this hostility towards AA. Just don't go. I get the sense that you are blaming AA for your wife's failure to stay sober. Your W is 100% responsible for her choice to drink and can't blame AA. AA cannot force someone to stay sober against their will.

All the steps and all the meetings in the world cannot overcome an unwillingness to stop drinking. But no one cares if you go. We only told you because we found something we know works and because we were being nice. You are not compelled to go, though.

If you know of another way to do it, then you should do so. It's no sweat off us.

Again, there are no accurate statistics because AA does not keep records. Never has, never will, because they have nothing to prove. Any statistics thrown around are just a wild [censored] guess based on nothing.

Who really cares how the alcoholic stops drinking, just so they do. I've seen people go into recovery thru AA, church, different programs, and just stop on their own.

Personally, I don't think you can beat a 12-Step program. It works for not only alcohol, but all kinds of addictions.

Mel,

I think you are getting a little of track. I hold no resentment toward the program. My FWW is in it now.

I was called out about mis information.

BTW AA did keep records in a triennial report published a few years ago you should check it out. It was done in philly. So there are published reports. The report was based on people in the program for 3, 6, 9 and 12 months.

There has also been research by sending people to rehab, AA and no treatment. Not kept by AA but they tracked the findings of each group.

So again off base on no statistics.

There have also been studies by an AA group in I think Australia.

You made the statment that nobody does it on their own before AA.

Again I agree with everyone when they say that whatever the Alchohlic chooses to get sober and stay sober is what is important.

I think you are taking it personally and it is not meant to be personal.

But people from AA are suggesting 12 steps when dealing with a wayward spouse and alcohol. 90 meetings in 90 days is a strain on a marriage already in trouble. If other ways of sobriety might have the same result as AA without the lifelong commitment.

If you would like me to link you to some research I will.

yoh - I really wish that you would accept the 90 meetings in 90 days, and try to read more about the 12-step program. You could even work it for things that you would like to change. Until you have seen the miracle, it is hard to believe.

yoh, I know all about the surveys, but those are not controlled studies and they are not records. Even so, it really doesn't matter. What matters is that she finds what works for HER. And I only hope that you don't discourage her from trying it out. Until she gets her drinking under control, there is no marriage to work on. I know that I would not be sober for 21 years if I had not found AA. Your wife has to find what works for her.

Thats what I don't think anyone is getting here.

My FWW is in AA. I even said I supported her. She does not even know about my doubts about the program. Her prior failures led me to the research which led to my doubts. On this her thrid attempt she wanted to go back to AA. I said nothing derogatory about the program. She does go and I support her for staying sober.

I was called to the table for mis-information. Nothing I said was mis informed. After explaining my comments I made a comment about the effectiveness of AA. Started all the fireworks.

Mel I understand you are dedicated to the program and you are working the program. I think this is like a religious(sp) conversation. You have your beliefs and I am a doubter.

The information that I have read seems very credible and unbiased. They were controlled studies done on several occasions. Some by people trying to prove the effectiveness of AA. But no matter what I say you will remain a believer which proves your dedication to working the program, which is good. And no matter what you say I will have my doubts.

As far as the 90 meetings in 90 days I am not an Alcholic. I appreciate the steps for what they are but I will never admit I am powerless. Which would mean I would never get past step 1. In addition to that I am not a very religious person. (Please do not tell me AA is not about God)

yoh, the point I have tried to make all along is that all the statistics in the world are IRRELEVENT if this is the one program that reaches her. If it reaches HER then the relevant "statistic" is 100%. At least she has a better chance going to AA than she did drinking, you can see where that got her. Her best thinking has kept her drunk for years. The reason I am a "believer" is because 21 years of sobriety tends to have that weird effect. Has nothing to do with "religion" but with a long term demonstrated pattern of success. That tends to be convincing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All of this back and forth has been nothing but a waste of my time. I wish you the best and hope you don't interfere with your wife's recovery.

YOH, I'd like to give you a bit of encouragement.

I will admit from the start that I am a 12-step advocate. My support comes from seeing the program succeed with two people I care about very deeply, both of whom had been unable to stop on their own. And on seeing the diffrerence that Al-Anon made in my life.

I know there are some people who seem to trade their addiction to alcohol for an addiction to AA, but those folks are pretty few and far between in my experience.

While there is a lifelong commitment to the principals of AA, not every member requires frequent meeting attendance forever.

At 86, my dad has 53 years of sobriety. It took him quite a few tries to quit drinking, even after my mother said she would take us and leave him if he did not stop. The Army tried unsuccessfully to help him, as did his family and the church. What worked for him was AA. And yet he's been to only one meeting in the last 50 years.

My husband, who was an alcoholic and addicted to multiple drugs (including IV narcotics) has 16 years sober. He did his 90 in 90 while in rehab, then went to two meetings per week for a year, then weekly for another year. After that he went once a month for a bit. And now he may attend three or four meetings a year, usually if he is asked to speak. It really is far less burdensome and soul-defeating than his addictions ever were.

Both my husband and my father may have eventually quit through other methods, but they chose AA (and a 12-step based rehab in my H's case). And why not? It's free, it's readily available, and it does provide the support of people who have been there/done that.

And by the way, the "powerlessness" that Al-Anon talks about is merely the understanding that we do not and cannot control another person. Do you believe you can control your wife, or her drinking? If you don't, then step one should be no problem for you.

Tru

YOH,

AA stands for Alcoholics ANONYMOUS, hence any studies that involve active AA members are BS.

In the AA traditions it states " Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and film."

Also, the only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking.

If you think your wife doesn't feel your negativity and hostility towards the program you have your head squarely and directly up your a$$.

Your D-day happened almost 3 years ago...don't you think it's time to get off the pity pot and let go of the past, not to mention letting go of your W's previous failures in the program? After all...did you learn how to ride a bike on your first attempt?

Just for today.

272 Joe

Another point...

AA is a SPIRITUAL program, not a GOD program.

Religion is for those who don't want to go to ******, SPIRITUALISM is for those who have already been to ****** and DON'T WANT TO GO BACK.

You are no longer alone.

272 Joe