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I really like your MC, Tony. Good choice.

How is he/she with No Contact? Making it what your WW must do to make a clear-headed choice about her marriage?

You're doing really well, of course...even if you're not feeling really well. Can take a long time to see the slimey OM as slimey...'cuz part of the fog is making that fantasy up and NOT seeing who OM really is...my DH only recently said he saw how ruthless his OW was. That's over a year and a half. Then again, he may have seen it much earlier, only he didn't share.

That happens, too.

Choose what to believe, Tony...(do not state this belief to her because it would contradict her truth right now)...I choose to believe your WW loves you with real, enduring love...not fantasy...and that you will have a thriving marriage--got to get to real NC, though. I believe in it, totally. No matter what it takes, Tony. Because of the phone, I would move the kids and her away from the church. I would. That's you protecting her weaknesses when she refuses right now.

Consequences...not retaliation. Please consider it, and calculate the cost of remaining anywhere near that school/church, 'k?

LA

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Hey Tony,

How are you doing? How is your wife? making any progress with NC or moving away from the church/school?


FWW- Me (44) BH (47) married 23 years EA/PA 02/05 - 07/06 in REAL recovery since 8/06
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HI 2crazy

I read your post you are doing great.

No my wife is not doing well with no contact. Contact never stopped more then 17 days,
And [censored], called her secret cell, the first time he got the chance.
And he is been lying about the contact all along.

She woke up for about a week and we tried to have a meeting with the pastor which is OM’s boss, in order to get OM fired, but we hit a road block, no body wants to hear the truth, I had met with the pastor when I first found out about the contact, told him about the secret cell phone and that nobody have that cell number, he chose not to hear it, I know he believed me, but he chose to stick his head in the sand.

Then OM called her they met.

And she put her blindfold back; yes she is back in the fog.

And on Friday she got a letter from school asking her to stay away,

And things took a turn to the worst. She is back blaming me for what’s happening
To her because “ I told the OMW”.
Figure that one out.

She wanted me to just sit back and enjoy the show, enjoy some JACK A$$, having S**
With my wife, and don’t do nothing about it.

Anyway.

Now she doesn’t want to work on the marriage anymore, she doesn’t want to go to MC anymore. She went twice it was her choice.

I admire your courage 2crazy, you chose to stop contact, even when you thought that OM was your soul mate, your best friend, even when you thought that you didn’t want to work on your M, it was hard but you chose to give your M another chance, and it’s working out for you, now you know, you can see how toxic the A was,
And you can see OM’s true colors, and the whole fantasy world of an A. you knew
What you needed to do through your darkest days, you could see the truth through the fog, I don’t know how you did it, but you did it, and I am proud of you.

My WW tells me OM has nothing to do with us our M is been over for more then 4 years.
And this is how she justify the A, and she told me that she didn’t feel any guilt about it,
And she is still not taking any ownership of her actions, (sounds familiar) she is sorry all right, sorry she got caught.

This woman is not my wife, and I told her that!
I told her that,

My wife is not a liar, my wife is not a cheater, my wife is not ungrateful, my wife is a wonderful, loving, and funny person that everybody loves so what’s going on.

I told her I’m not trying to revive our M I have learned a lot, and I know we can put everything behind us and start over again.

She thinks it will take too long to get there and she can not wait that long.

Bottom line she cannot imagine having SF with me, and she wants to get it else ware.

Maybe one day she will wake up, maybe it will be too late; maybe she is not even asleep,
I don’t know anymore.

What I do know is that I love my wife but this woman is not my wife.

I think I’m losing my feelings; maybe it’s my self defense mechanism, my subconscious,

Maybe I’m doing what she did, maybe I’m pulling away from her to protect myself.

When she was out of the fog that week we agreed that we would make every decision together from now on, and she promised she wouldn’t hurt me anymore,
Well it was good while it lasted, 12 days to be exact.

What a promise.

When she was awake, she told me that she could see how bad she was acting when she was
In full A mode, and how much she pushed the kids away, and that she doesn’t want to go back there anymore.

Well looks to me like she is on her way back, she is half way there.

She was mad at me when the school send her that letter, her words where:
“ I hope you are happy now? I know you where praying for them to do that”

I was choked I would rather have her at school, because I know she will be watched,
Now that they think she is not there, they will loosen up the noose on OM, and guess what
They where not seeing each other at school, they usually meet somewhere, so now it is going to be easier for them, and knowing that her life revolved around her volunteering
At school, and that most of her friends are at school, she is going to get bored again, at home, and guess what? OM will be a very attractive option again, this is how her A started, she was down on her self, very low self esteem, she thought that she was worthless, she didn’t like her life, and so on, and OM came along…

Now I know she is reading this, she thinks I’m obsessed with this site, so please take consideration when you reply, a pretty please for everybody.

Tony.


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Tony,

I'm so sorry to hear that contact has continued...and I know you realize your WW is as responsible for it as OM...she got the secret cell...and he called it. She took the bait. She's not a blind fish, Tony. She's KNOWS what she is choosing.

She does.

She's choosing to be wayward...to justify her entitlement (what, she's bored therefore she chooses to cheat, rather than get a healthy circle of friends, not related to the school, and occupy her time with self-care, children and meeting her DH's needs?)...she steeps in her resentment and holds no respect for the marriage, for you or her family.

You know that definition of wayward...and you know it well.

Your choices are your own. All contact continues the affair...you know what you have to do...do you want support, affirmation? Yes, you have mine for the next plan. Re-expose to all family members and church friends she prized...she's doing this...not you.

I don't see where you're making plans to transfer the children to a new school, Tony...how come? I ask because Plan D requires this...doesn't it? Why not your plan, the one you would do if she didn't end contact and get through withdrawal?

Move...get something smaller, more affordable for you and the children...she can get a job...can't she?

She'll have to, won't she?

She chooses independent behavior, attacks the marriage...you must protect it, and your remaining love...this does not end the marriage...it is your last attempt to save it, by protecting it from her assaults.

You can do this. You can plan out the move, the schedule with the children, the finances, the intermediary...all of it. Let's work on that...and I doubt she's reading here...she's in an affair and has no time to focus enough to hear truth...I remember.

In your corner,

LA

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Thanks LA.

yes she is reading here i don't know if she is here to keep
an eye on what I'm doing, or what I will do next, but she is here, reading I hope she reads enough to understand what's going on with her, and how strong the Addiction is, I told her about 2crazy and the state of mind she was in
just a few weeks ago, she wasn't even sure that she wanted
to save her M, and look at her now.
I am so proud of her, arn't you LA, she is a remarkable woman.

why WW can't see the love spilling out of their BH, I mean
if I wanted to leave I would have left long time ago.

why can't they see that? how strong is this addiction?

how strong is it? sometimes I just don't get it, and Iam a very smart guy, ask my WW.


BH 44
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Why would you ever leave? You're not consciously committing adultery, attacking your marriage, with every contact, are you? She would leave.

How strong is the addiction? As strong as the pattern of our lives, Tony. My pattern was to make an image of myself to please others, to feed me from the outside...because I was detestable to myself.

If I'm making up who I am, how much more do I make up? Others...in order to meet my own desire for admiration, appreciation and acceptance, I made up others into fantasy human beings, outside reality, to fill me up with what I wasn't giving myself. That's the drug. That's the injection...all from the outside...all fake, and having fake feelings...temporary, conflicting, transitory.

Until I got that pattern...which had gone on my whole life, I couldn't break my addiction. I got that I was in control of choosing this...this fake life...and wondering why I couldn't experience authentic and intimate love...all the way inside me.

My fake self blocked it all. The real love from my DH and family...friends...I only felt loved enough when my IMAGE was enough.

Precarious way to live.

Not real.

I learned the love like what you are exampling in your loving acts and choices to your WW hurt.

It hurt...physically and emotionally. It couldn't be. I didn't make it up, had no control and CERTAINLY it wasn't authentic because I didn't MAKE BH love me. Filled with fear, no control.

And in that hurt was the sweetest redemption...the reason why, when I opened enough to feel the hurt and think about it, that I began to see my patterns.

By that time, my BH was gone.

I believe I would have learned it earlier had I moved out, taken responsibility for my choices--because a dam inside breaks down...and reality flows in and it's a million times more painful and shocking than my BH's love for me was...and I remain deeply grateful for my BH's giving me that chance to change all of my life by loving me, anyway.

Your humor, Tony, is a saving grace within you. When you're circling within your thoughts, stop and laugh...you see it...I know you do...wrestling what you have no idea about...you have authentic love from your real self for your WW...and she's won't get to learn how to love that way until she stops making up her life, choosing to be fake and feeling false.

She will be priceless when she gets there, I believe.

I am.

LA

P.S. I forgot...when's that MC appt? Hmmm?

Last edited by LovingAnyway; 09/05/06 07:24 PM.
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213, does she have some marketable job skills and a good education? Because I would suggest she start looking for a job if she wants to behave as a single [loose] woman. She can't expect you to support her while she plays around with married men. Her marriage won't last that way.

So, I would suggest that she start looking for jobs and perhaps a room in a good boarding house since nice homes are very expensive. I hear its not expensive to get a furnished room in a clean boarding house. Just be careful for bed bugs!

I would also advise that you not give her any money when you ask her to leave. That would be financing her affair and you can't take your familys' money to finance a sleazy affair.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Any idea if the OM would support her? How much money does he make as a janitor? Would his wife allow that? Hopefully, your wife is not putting out for free and can get some compensation for her services.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Mel prompted a thought for me...

OM loves his wife. He loves his family. He doesn't love your WW...which is the fantasy he made up. Humans can't love a fantasy...they can only enjoy it until it dissolves.

OM chose his wife and family. Just because he's choosing to hide and be sneaky with your WW, doesn't mean he loves her.

I forgot to think of that...just wanted to share.

LA

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LA is right, if he cared about your wife he wouldn't be screwing around with her. Screwing around with a marriage woman is nothing but gross disrespect. He wouldn 't do it if he had any respect or care for your wife. Very sad and shameful. I hope your wife can find a good job.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hey Tony,

Hope this day finds you in a better place. Something else to remember.....do what is healthy & necessary for YOU ..for YOUR children...for YOUR life. Of course you want her to be part of that, but you cannot no matter how hard you try..make her SEE just yet..she has to open her eyes herself...

what will make her do that? It is different for everyone. The thought of losing my husband, children, family, friends made me realize that I was being selfish...okay first step!...reading here and realizing my OM was no different than the others...made me begin to think differently!..okay second step!...actually sticking to NC..WOW!...THAT is the key!..NC, getting away from the illusion, putting some clear distance between myself & om...she has to begin to think differently..and until she can "get away" from the lure and constant contact with the OM...she will not see that!

A change has to be made to save her, to save your marraige. Get the kids out of there...get her out of there...find a way to do it!...she will not come to this realization on her own.

You have to turn the tables, and keep the upper hand...and as far as how far I have come!?...I still have a long long way to go...everyday is an adventure on the "wheel of emotions"...

Take care of yourself and your children....hopefully she will follow....


FWW- Me (44) BH (47) married 23 years EA/PA 02/05 - 07/06 in REAL recovery since 8/06
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Justpeachy and I have been talking for a few weeks now and we have a theory....

1. The addiction is very strong and it in some cases is unfortunately laced with mental instability, physical problems (post partum, hormone imbalance, chemical imbalance, etc) and others. This makes an already strong addiction all consuming. They can and won't see anything as long as this is happening. It isn't possible.
2. You don't get it and you will not get it. You can understand it academically and from studying the board here at MB and from talking with others who have suffered through this but you will never really get it. If you got it you would be mentally unhealthy. I cannot get it either for as much as I loved my EX WW and two other women in my lifetime I was never addicted to them. To be addicted to them would have meant I was unhealthy, needy, had low self esteem, that something was wrong with me....

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LA what a wonderful reply, like always.

Straight from your heart, MC was last night, actually IC she doesn’t want to go anymore,
She asked me not to try to save this M anymore I told her that this would be my choice, not hers.

I took a copy of your reply to my counselor, he was very impressed, he said this is exactly what WW is going through, and like any other addiction, she will not wake up, until she hit rock bottom.

He even told me that this is worse then any substance addiction, because in case of a substance addiction, it’s easy to see the problem, and send them to rehab, sometimes
It’s not even their choice, the court will order it or they will go to jail.

So Tony you have to take care of yourself and the kids, spend some more time with
Your friends, away from this chaos, I’m worried about you Tony.

I told him I have a great support network here on MB, he said this is good but you need
To blow some steam with your friends to.

So far my plan A is been unselfish love that is even unwanted or unappreciated,
I need to work on myself now, I need to switch gears and disconnect myself from
This Toxic environment, while keeping the line of communications on all she have to do
Is picking up the other end.

ML
You tell the truth, as it is, no packaging no sugar coating, I wish she could see that.

The answer to your question is NO, and she didn’t work for a long time.
And about OM I would want to laugh, but his wife makes most of the money, and she wears the pants too, and he is not going to leave his family, and his wife is not going to kick him out.

I know he loves his wife, and he doesn’t love my WW, it is the fantasy and he is taking
Advantage of my WW’s feelings, she thinks he loves her because he tells her that, he is telling her that he doesn’t love his Wife and he is only staying for the kids, and that he would have left long time ago.


So it’s a dead end, this is why I don’t understand.

2crazy thank you for the lovely post, like I said you are a strong and wonderful lady
To have single handedly stopped the A, and I know you still have a long road to travel,
At least you know you are heading the right direction, more power to you, you are going to be ok.

HandP.

Thanks for the input I guess you have a point here.

Tony.


BH 44
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Tony...you're welcome! Gratitude right back at you for creating the opportunity for me to come straight from my heart...

This non-wayward being is a journey, too...and reliving what I did, why I did...how I got there...ensures there's no return road...and it's layered and deep...just as your IC said...because if it were something I was ingesting or injecting, I could see me doing it...make the substance the demon...and adultery was the invisible demon in my head, kicking in all my own drug reactions in my brain...hard to see me doing it to myself...and I did...with only my thoughts.

Thoughts are powerful.

Where my thoughts are, there is my treasure.

That goes for you, too, Tony...if you constantly think about your WW, then your marriage suffers...what? Yeah. The marriage is like a third part to your partnership...taking care of yourself, your children and The Marriage, instead of caretaking her feelings, thoughts and beliefs...which are TOXIC to the marriage right now...is what I believe your IC is really saying.

Treasure your marriage and not your WW. Like Orchid urges...Plan A your W, Plan B your WW. Right now, she's all WW...do not take her calls lamenting the letter, telling you how she feels...if it's A-related, which she is CHOOSING, don't meet those needs.

AmIok is now in your shoes...can you read her thread and see what she's doing? What she's choosing to live in truth instead of reality? I respect and support your choices for your life, Tony. You matter. I'm asking you to see this extremely fine line between W and WW.

Which is so difficult because they look strikingly similar, don't they?

LOL

Not in actions...only physically.

All fantasies are deadends...because they aren't real...there is no honesty between APs...only illusion and making each other up in their minds. That's why hopeandpray and justpeachy can't get it...they live heartily in truth. I want you to live there, too.

Accept you can't understand A's...not logical, reasonable or REAL. 2Crazy got REAL. Her choice. Her power. Same as everyone on the planet...including your WW's. Remember to see reality and not get caught up in her fantasy, Tony.

What does her fantasy include? That she's not sexually attracted to you...isn't really married...those are bits and pieces of her unreality. Know your own reality, your own truth. Listen and repeat only...keep your O&H focused on sharing YOU...not in responding to her fantasy.

You bear the responsibility of reality...to live, breathe and proclaim it...in this partnership, you're the only one right now who can.

LA

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IF you have been in plan A for awhile it may be time for plan B. She claims she does not want you trying to save the marriage but have you noticed she has not filed for divorce? You may need to break your contact with her for her to see what she stands to lose.

Please read up on plan B and consider it.

God Bless,

JL

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Agree with JL. She openly admits she doesn't want the marriage. What she does want is to have her cake and eat it too. She wants you to support her while she carries on like an alley cat in heat. Time to treat her to some consequences and let her really live the single life. With freedom comes responsibility. She wants the freedom to carry on with a married man but wants none of the responsibility.

Also,I wonder if it would help to have a meeting with yourself, your wife, the OM and his wife to discuss this "open marriage" that she and the OM want to live? If there is to be an "open marriage" this should be "openly" discussed among all marriage partners. The OMW might not agree to your wife's plans, though.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Morning everybody.

I want to thank all the people here that helped me through my darkest times,

Before my wife found my posts this was my safe haven to vent, to laugh, and to cry
Without being judged.

I thought I could hang here after she found out but I guess I don’t feel safe here anymore,

I talked to her yesterday, she said she is been reading this, and she was upset about some of the replies.

I do understand her point, she said people don’t know her here and they are judging her
Through my words.

So I will no longer be posting here, at least not about my situation, I will read other peoples struggle I will pitch in wherever I can help.

((((((((((LA)))))))))) you where my guiding light through this, we are alike, you helped me understand those thoughts in my head.

((((((((((2crazy)))))))))) Your story is uplifting I will keep an eye on your progress,

I will pitch in when I can. Keep your head up high and move forward you are heading
The right direction.

I will update when major changes happens.

Thanks everybody.

And RAIN if you are reading this I still love you with all my heart, now that I know how to love, now that I know what love is, I know you don't want my love anymore, but you have it anyway, yes I love you anyway, maybe one day it will
matter, maybe it's too late, but this is all I have to offer,
evrything else you have, thank you for loving me when you did, I know it was a long time ago, but I still remember,
it's more vivid now then it was back then.

I LOVE YOU.

Tony


BH 44
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I am sorry that you find yourself unable to post here about your situation. You may try and find someone that you can email or speak w/ that can provide advice and hope.

BUT, I want to address one thing you said about your WW,Rain and if she is reading this then I personally address it to her.

"she said people don’t know her here and they are judging her through my words."

Well let me take a shot at this. I know all I need to know about who this woman is now and has become. She is an adulteress and there is no justification or reasoning that will change that. She has betrayed her vows before God, hurt her husband, hurt her children, interfered in another man's life (married?), lost her integrity, destroyed her reputation, is a quitter and is quite happy to go on doing all of this in spite of all that she knows about affair relationships and the destruction they cause. What else do I need to know about her. I don't care what you did if anything. The above is true about her irregardless of you and your actions past or present. Rain, until you accept what you did and are doing, take full responsibility for your actions past and present, resolve to find your dignity and integrity and end it with the OM whether you go back to your M or not, become repentant and remorseful, you have left yourself open to people judging you from plain, cold, hard evidence.

The judging you are feeling is justified and you know it. When you lie down at night and try to ignore the facts and the cold hard truth you know it. The real problem is is that you aren't willing to do anything about it. You DESERVE to be happy, to feel good, to have what I want no matter who gets hurt including my children. I just don't FEEL it for my husband, well guess what there will come a day, I promise, when you will not "feel it" for this OM and the difference is that this OM will have moved on to conquest # ___. You will look up and your husband, who not perfect, will have moved on, improved himself and found someone new who loves the new him. Your children will have been served an unrequested of hard luck and mental and emotional pain that you cannot understand right now and your relationship with them will never be what it was meant to be. You will look up and wonder "I gave everything up for this man who really wasn't so special after all, no, is anything but special", but it will be too late.

There is still time but you don't care because you don't know what real, hard work, kind of love is. You are only concerned about instant gratification. Guess what, so is the OM and when that wears off he's done with you, bet on it. there is a reason that 97% of affair relationship/marriages die and end. think about it!

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She get's to call all the shot's? Every single one of them? I agree, plan B. Let her put her $ where here mouth is. She'll torture you as long as you allow it. This she has proven. I am very sorry - Dru

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Tony,

The only shared truth is on the actions we choose. We are not judging Rain as a person, but on her choice of actions.

We cannot help her to know the difference. She doesn't post.

You cannot help her to know the difference. It is what adults learn on their own.

She can feel judged, wrongly so...and that's her perception. Your choice to not post here because it upsets her feelings--which are hers, coming from inside her...not us or you doing them to her...is your choice.

My wish is for you to choose from your standards, not your feelings.

She is making adult choices in destroying your family. Do not treat her as a child who does not know what she's doing. She does. She knows. And she's doing it anyway.

If someone was threatening your children, what would you do? Would you protect them? Rain is threatening your marriage...and carrying out those threats by continuing her affair.

Protect your marriage and your children...it would be worth great debt, asking your family for help and telling her to leave, now...because her choices are hurting her children, you and the marriage.

Protect your love for her and your children's love for her. My father did this and I no longer saw him as a wonderful man...I saw him as someone who made terrible choices, did not love me or my sister or my mother. I learned men hurt...I was six years old...I didn't know about sex or infidelity...children know. They learn what their parents teach...and that is that if husbands are replaceable, then they are, too.

Maybe she'll meet other children she'll like better and leave them. Maybe she'll find a child so good and nice, who isn't loud or needy, and love them more.

So they try to take better care of Mommy's feelings...work harder to be gooder, create a false self and hate themselves because they weren't just born good enough for her. And they will grow up believing this...and replace those they love greatly because they will have low self esteem, depend on others to fill them up, instead of loving themselves...and why not? Their mother wouldn't choose to stop putting others ahead of them to spite her BH for not fixing her enough.

Stop caretaking Rain's feelings, Tony. She's fully capable, whole and complete...treat her as she truly is...do not be her crutch...she has no need to lean...

Respect her, Tony. You learned how to take care of others' emotions...which teaches them they are incapable of taking care of what is inherently their own.

As hopeandpray said, Rain is choosing her life...choose yours. You choose to love her...do not allow this open marriage...do not stick it out...because you'll be stuck. Divorce her. Legally separate. Protect your family and your marriage from her abuse.

Affairs are abusive.

Can you see better why there is redemption in this world? When we stop abusing, we begin our amends...just as when we go no contact with our partner who helped to destroy our family...we learn who they really were...all our choice.

Our actions do not define who we really are...which is why God said to hate the sins, not the sinner. Redemption is for everyone who chooses to love themselves, thereby truly loving others.

Your WW chooses to have no faith in today, her own power...you cannot make her know she is powerful...she has to recognize she is. Someone who is powerless could not wreak such destruction and pain, daily, on her family.

She has always had her own power...choosing not learn about it is her responsibility, not yours. You know your power and its limits.

And what she reads here is many others believe also. How can you trust someone to be your friend who chooses to betray her husband, the man she vowed to? Who betrays her children and herself?

Judging her through your words? Not at all. Judging her because she continues to betray? Yes. You report truth, Tony. You are a truth bringer. Why would you choose to join in her deception by NOT bringing truth?

You brought your truth here...your devastation, heartache, believing you earned love and punishment...how you obsessed on what wasn't yours...and you read, studied and learned another way to live.

Plan A was this path...to learn all about yourself, stop your LBs, change your patterns and live in truth, loving your authentic self. Why? So that you would be a great partner, with or WITHOUT your WW.

Doesn't mean you choose to stop loving her...means you stop enabling her...stop being a hostage to her feelings. Just because she chooses to be a hostage to hers does not mean you surrender yourself and your children to that emotional extortion.

I hope you'll continue posting. I know you won't stop learning. I respect your choices and appreciate you listening to what I think...it's only my opinion. I am not trying to stop you from hurting...you hurt. I am here to support your goal to live in reality, in truth...in real freedom, responsibility and love.

LA

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