Hiker -

No plan B required to date in my sitch. WW and OM appear to be broken up owing to a major meltdown on OM's part after NC letter sent Friday.

WW no longer at the workplace, acting thoughtful and repentant. Has told me she'll do what it takes to rebuild.

Don't know if this is encouraging to your or not... Be very careful about getting caught up in "payback". Get stuck in that line of thinking and you'll never get out. There is nothing a WS can do to repay the BS for what they've done. Nothing. It's not about retribution. If it was no one would recover.

I agree remorse is what makes you want to pull closer.

Resentment can be fueled by a lot of issues.

My analogy to my wife was this.

You are walking down the street and some one bumps into you and knocks you down. There are several different things that can happen next that will give you an indication of what type of person it was that bumped into you.

That person can:
Stop, apologize and help you up.
Stop, apologize then keep going.
Apologize on the fly.
Give you a dirty look for getting in their way.
Give you a dirty look and tell you watch where you are going.
Stop, apologize and help you up then push you down yet again becuase it was your fault for the original collision.

Remorse is stopping, apologizing and helping you up.

Of course resentment will set in when someone stops apologizes then keeps pushing you down.

My FWW admitted after almost three years that she lied this whole time about the amount of everything.

When she did it went like this.

Did you....
Yes I did. Next question.

Did you....
Yes I did. Does that make you feel better now?

Am I missing the remorse?

When I asked how she could lie to me for 3 years her answer was "I didn't lie to you I just didn't think it was important" Trust me it was important. Then her words not mine "I have forgiven myself for these things long ago so they aren't important to me." I am sorry to tell you but my FWW sleeping with OM on our anniversary should be important to her. The fact that she could live with the lies lets me know the amount of remorse she really had.

So yes I resent the fact that she did that. Yes I resent the fact that she led me to believe there was something I could have done to stop it.

Her answer to not having the A was me being there. If I were there none of this would have happened. LOL and she expects me to trust her.

By the way HL - Honesty is your higest EN, right? I think that's great. When WW asked me - yet again - what I wanted I told her 1) for today, honesty about the present (feelings, events, etc) 2) for a later day, honesty about the past.

That's where it ALL starts -- honesty. My part in this being in being emotionally honest.

Also, GREAT analogy regarding resentment. I'm going to copy/paste that one into my notes. OK?

Hiker -

I guess your missing my point. I don't know the purpose of your question/statements.

If your premise was to lay out why it won't work after the A is over, then I can only assume that either A) this is what you believe will happen, or B) You are asking people to offer solutions to what you think will happen, or C) You are asking people to point out a flaw in your observation.

If its A, then I agree, that's exactly what will happen. If its B or C, then perhaps you can clarify what evidence on these boards leads you to believe points 2-7. As I have seen many other threads that have followed a different path.

Are you looking just to vent, which is okay, or are there specific points you don't understand or want people to share their own experience?

I only ask, because it is my personal opinion that at least the BS or the WS must wholeheartedly believe that marital recovery is possible. If neither do, then it will most likely not happen. If your WS does not believe this, then hopefully you can be convinced that it is possible.

Post deleted by Hiker45

rprynne,

The thread should have been entitled "Reasons why it MIGHT not work . . ."

MDC,

I wouldn't say honesty is my biggest EN. Because I demand honesty from everyone I deal with. If someone is not being honest or I beleive they are purposely lying though ommision the I have problems with them.

I demand this when dealing with me because I am an honest person. I really don't have the energy or the brain to keep up a lie.

I learned this at the tender age of 15. It is funny so I will tell you the story that changed my life.

I was 15 I met a girl at a teen night that was 18. I don't know what happened but I lied to her and told her I was 17. Ok I know what happened I wanted to be with her and thought if she knew I was only 15 she probably wouldn't want to be with me. So one day I actually hooked up with her best friend. Hey I was only 15 what do you expect.

A few days later she came over and asked me "Do you have something to tell me?" Well stupid me I fessed up to the thing with her friend. OOPS. She was talking about my age. She knew I was only 15 because she got a copy of my schools yearbook and saw I was only a freshmen.

She was shocked and said I was asking you about your age. I said oh then I am only 15. That pretty much ended that. LOL.

So from that time on I just figured why lie it only makes things confusing and I am not that smart. LOL.

The sad thing about the analogy is I told her that after I uncovered the 20th lie or so. She kept pushing me down for the next two years.

Now I look back and I do not see much remorse. I see someone that just wanted me to get over it.

I think the point of both people wanting recovery is true. I have tried to convince her things will work.

She actually said in our last information confirmation session she is always waiting for the next shoe to drop. I said of course you had to know I was not moving on until you were honest. You just dropped a whole bunch of next shoes. But of course it was my fault for the other shoe dropping. I should have just let it go and not demanded honesty in my relationship.

Hiker, I've been there... and in a way still am. My W has apologized in different ways... but probably never in the way that I wished she would.

I know you just want her to say how wrong she was, how great you are, it is all her fault, etc. etc.. ...and most importantly... it will never happen again, because she knows now just how fantastic her spouse is. We all do.

But what is worse? Not getting the remorse that you want right now, fairly soon after the A? Or your W just telling you what you want to hear to make things better but she not really changing or healing on the inside? It would make it so much easier if they would just "get it", come back 100% to the M and we live happily ever after. It just doesn't work that way. Be thankful that, at the very least, even if it is not what you want to hear, that your W is being honest with you.
My W has never came back and said she is so in love with me. She does love me but admits she doesn't know if she loves me enough. For now, that is enough. What I appreciate is that she has never given me false hope this past year. She could have taken the easy road and told me what I wanted to hear so we could sweep it under the carpet. She has respected me and our M enough to be truthful.
That is one of the first steps in recovery and rebuilding... is both of you being real and truthful.

It sucks... but I believe it shows hope. How you deal with her truth will partly determine how the future is.

Shaden

I believe that marital recovery is possible after an affair. I don't believe it is possible if the WS doesn't want it to work out. The idea with MB is to either help them want it by making a return to the marriage an attractive choice, or wait out the affair and try to pick up the pieces.

My problem is that as I study these boards I keep reading people who have been working at this for YEARS, and many who worked diligently and failed anyway.

That is depressing to me. And yes, I have been analyzing and overanalyzing my own situation to death trying to find answers. I have been to other sites where the philosophy is almost directly opposite of MB (Huizenga says NEVER accept blame in the marriage when your spouse is having an affair; NEVER tell family and friends because it will appear that you are trying to enlist their aid).

Who is right? Who gets results? I don't know.

Clearly I need to try to Plan A to move away from the animosity that my wife has developed for me since I have been exposing the affair, but the only time I have ever seen my wife act like this is with her 2nd ex-husband. From my vantage point, it looks as though I will be the third.

For those of you who are wondering, my reaction to my wife telling me she was sorry for hurting me was this:

"I know you didn't hurt me intentionally. And I'm sorry that I didn't meet all your needs."

I am acknowledging the apology and taking some blame for the marital issues that she now believes are responsible for setting up the conditions for the affair.

The WS doesn't want it to work out. That's the nature of a WS. There is way too much "rent" due in working it out. As you know, the A has to become less attractive and more difficult to maintain than the reward that WW is getting from it.

Don't take any blame. Your blame justifies the A. OK for you to own your behaviour pre-A but as you do so, separate that behavior from your WW's decision to have the A. "I know now that I did not place the highest priority on our M and our family. I see that now. And I am full of remorse and regret for my actions. My actions, however, were not responsible for your A. I did not 'cause' your A. Just as you did not 'cause' me to put our marriage 2nd."

Something like that. Separate your actions from hers. Constantly draw that line. In your own mind and hers. I was full of resentment for my WW pre-A. Could I trace it back to her and blame her for the resentment? Sure I could. Is that me owning my own behavior? No way. Resentment was my reaction to WW. I control my reaction. Affair was my WW's reaction to my resentment. She controls her reaction.

I'm sure WW could trace her behavior - that I responded to with resentment - to something I did. Which I could trace to something she did. And so on, and so on, and so on... Never ends. Stop. Own your stuff. Let her own hers.

See I think what the problem is here is that every WS is different in some ways.

Maybe we should set up a personality test for FWS or WS and not let them know it is about how we should try to get to recovery.

For example if you have a stubborn WS then you don't go to plan A you go to plan U. etc.

They take the test then based on the way they deal with situations we can put ourselves in the best position to deal with that type of personality.

If they wait for you to take responsibility then dump it on you then you should never admit fault. Because if you do they will be content with you fixing yourself and them not fixing themselves.

If they are responsible people then you can admit your part because you know they will take their part as well.

This may get to the root issues much quicker. If you know that your FWS will only work on her problems if she is forced to then you go into plan B until she does.

I am starting the site tomorrow. LOL.

Hiker,

You are right that sometimes this goes on for years and other times, one of the couple makes a decision to get out rather quickly... and then, fortunately, we hear about the successes.

I think that too much emphasis of Plan A is placed on meeting needs. This is important as your Spouse needs to feel there is something worth coming back to... but the more important part is learning about yourself and growing into a better person.

I don't necessarily think that either staying and working on the M or leaving to build a new life is right or wrong... it is what you are learning personally through it and it is different for each person. I have chosen to stay and work on my M, but more importantly to work on myself... to become accepting, loving, patient, compassionate, confident, strong, independent and so on. I told my W several times that neither I nor any other man can "make" her happy... she has to do that for herself... but I never got it until recently that I wasn't taking my own advice. I was relying on my W to make me happy and was miserable because she wasn't working as hard as I thought she should. When I talk to her about it, she thinks things are going well. I need to find my own happiness and choose to do so while staying in my M... because I love my W and my sons. Because I have hope, patience and faith.

It may not work out, but the time will come when either I know I have done everything for myself that I can in this relationship and then choose to leave, or our M will become so strong and loving because I have done the work I needed to do.

MB rules are guidelines that have helped a lot of people... but they aren't 100% accurate for all situations. I don't follow them 100% which is one of the reasons I don't offer advice very often on these threads... I don't feel I should unless they are in line with MB practices.

One of the best pieces of advice I recieved on here is to stop looking at the recovery on a daily basis. The ups and downs are so many that it is frustrating and disappointing most days. You need to measure on a monthly or longer period of time. When I was ready to give up a couple of weeks ago because I felt my W was not giving what I wanted... I forgot this advice. When I looked at how my life is now compared to 1 year ago, I would have to say it is a miracle... but when I look at it compared to 1 month ago... it felt like we had stalled or taken some steps back. Recovery will be like that. It is always better to look at the long range picture (kind of like the stock market). It has been difficult for me to learn patience... but it is the most important thing I am learning right now.

Shaden

Post deleted by Hiker45

The funny thing is that everyone in my house is "getting some" except for me and my four-year-old son.

Hiker - Ok - You believe it is possible. I saw on your other posts that it looks like you are doing the right things. I agree its not possible if your WS doesn't never wants to work it. I mean at first, they usually don't want to work it out, right? (all though some FWS do). So, in its simplest form MB principles try to influence the WS to want to work it out. But there is a lot of subtly and nuance to this influence.

Yes, there are people on these boards who have tried for years and worked hard. But I don't think they have failed. Look at it this way, the MB principles goal is for people to be happy. Period. They want people to be happy. Okay, so both the WS and BS have the same goal of a happy life. The hard part of recovery is both BS and WS agreeing on the way to get there.

Now, it is the assertion of MB that most people are their happiest when they are in a loving, romantic marriage. They don't say the only way to be happy is to be in a loving romantic M. In fact, they say the #1 cause of unhappiness is being in a non-loving, unromantic M. And thus, most of their principles focus on having a good M.

However, some BS disagree that a M recovery with their WS is they way to be happy. Some make that decision on D-Day, others during the process. But just because they don't recover their M doesn't mean they failed. Some WS disagree with the above assertion. Some agree but want to try it with OP. Some disagree at first, then eventually change their mind.

Post D-Day, and after the dust settles, everyone on these boards should sit down and say what is going to make me happy. I think most of us conclude (WS and BS), that having a loving, romantic M with our current S is the best choice. The BS usually comes to this conclusion first, a few weeks after D-Day. The WS usually takes a lot longer.

Why does it usually take longer, lots of reasons. 1) At that time, they believe they have to options to choose from to achieve the goal of a happy M. 2) Most likely they have spent considerable time pondering that question and are already leaning toward leaving the BS. 3)They are usually convinced that a happy M with BS was immpossible before and is even more so now that there is the discovery of an A. Another way to look at it is think if you were scoring this. Say it takes a score of 100 to decide to recommitt to the M. Pre-D-Day, a BS might score a 50, but the WS probably scores a -50. Post D-Day, the BS might drop to a 0, but the same drop happens in the WS and they are at -100. To get back to 100 for both people, the WS has to move twice as far as the BS, and this takes longer.

Plan A and plan B are in effect working on yourself. Working on your own personal recover. The side effect is that it provides evidence to the WS that having a loving, romantic M with their S is the best choice. Notice I don't say convince or manipulate, its about providing evidence.

As far as other methods. I think you can determine what is the right approach. I once posted a similar question. IMHO, its a combination of approaches and using what is appropriate. I think the real thing is to be different than what you were, if you know what I mean. I think the MB approach tends to believe that A's happen when the parties are withdrawn, so don't be withdrawn. I think some other approaches assume A's happen when one party is not attractive to another, so be attractive. (And there are many opinions about what is attractive). What may help, is to think about how you were when you first met. I know when I first met my FWW, I was active, did lots of different things, was upbeat, seldom was critical of her, always showing my best side, etc. Then somewhere along the way I developed some bad habits. Usually, going back to the habits you had when you first met are a good start. If your still not sure, post that question. Basically, "I'm thinking of being more ______, I say this because I think my FWW _____. What do you think?"

Also, agree 100% with what MDC said.

Hurting - also agree that the right path or plan varies very much based on the WS. I think the core principles always apply, but different sublities or nuances are appropriate depending on the sitch.

I think that should be the core principle. Find the beast you are dealing with before you start to deal with it.

It is also why I believe radical honesty is the most important thing when it comes to the A. There is nothing like dealing with the first set of "issues" for a few months only to find out they were BS. When more truth's come out.

The sooner you know the details the sooner you can figure out what beast you are trying to slay.

No sense pouring your energy into justifications if they are just that. Fixing your problem when in all reality it was just a justification can tend to piss someone off.

So I will be speaking with a web developer to get my personality test for FWS or WS in order.

Well I agree with most of what you are saying. First, I realize that the inability to convince your WS to work on the marriage leaves you one option; work on yourself.

I don't have the problem that some do from the physcal standpoint. I'm actually in better shape physically now than I was when we were married; not fat, athletically toned, etc. I run two miles three times a week and I lift weights. I have more gray hair than I did five years ago, but she has never complained about that. The fact is, my physical appearance shouldn't be a factor because everyone who has seen the OM finds it inexplicable that my wife would be drawn to him.

And the fact is, that isn't why she is drawn to him. Physical attraction wasn't even on her list of emotional needs.

So why was she attracted to this guy? I don't know. Maybe she doesn't either. It certainly couldn't be for conversation; he barely speaks English. Not admiration; he doesn't know anything about what she does. Not family commitment; he's cheating on his own wife. Sexual fulfillment; well, no one knows how to press her buttons better than I do -- but the psychological factor may be in his favor. Affection; I admit that trailed off in the last few years because we were so busy with work, school, and kids.

Naturally the physical side is just part of it. I'm working on other aspects of my self too. Did we have problems in the marriage? I didn't think so. We certainly had fewer problems than anyone I knew. Why did I get this wonderful Father's Day card this time last year telling me these were the best years of her life and she loved me more everyday -- this happening one month before the affair started.

Have I been tempted to have an affair? I had opportunity. I had a willing subject (a woman making advances). But I didn't act on it. Is that because all my emotional needs are being met to my satisfaction? No. It's because the risk of losing my family is not worth the "reward" of a relationship with another woman. And oddly enough, "knowing" that my wife would never cheat on me helped me stay on the right side of the line.

I don't believe that all affairs are due to the BS's failure to meet the WS's emotional needs.

I don't know what kind of beast I'm up against other than it has the most powerful hold on my wife that I have ever seen. Like an addiction to a drug or alcohol, my wife is willing to give up our family to pursue this affair. She has convinced herself that our 4 year old son can easily adjust to divorce even though her failed second marriage left my stepson an emotional cripple with a chip on his shoulder the size of a 2x4.

I don't doubt that the affair will burn out. What I doubt is my wife's ability to ever see things in their proper light. I believe she has convinced herself that our marriage was too seriously flawed to try to save. Will she change this opinion when the emotions of the fantasy fall flat?

That is the question. I would wait a long time if I could know the answer was yes.

You're right on this one, Hiker. Not meeting EN's is only a part of it...sometimes the main part, other times it had very little to do with it. Psychologists say that even just a person's past hurts can help put them into a position of an A... maybe they are afraid of abandonment, afraid of intimacy, have been abused or had parents who cheated... maybe they suffer from depression or an addiction. Mid-life crisis... a term used loosely is a real factor in some cases. There are so many variables... which is why we work on ourselves. There are always things we could do better in our marriage... but the reason or fault that she had an A is not yours.

My W would tell you that I was putting a lot more into our M pre-A and now... that I was trying to meet her ENs... but she still had an A. The MC thought it was to do with her past, and because of the good guy/bad guy theory. I was too nice.... Someone else is too distant, too busy, too ugly, too giving, too taking... there are so many reasons... but the simple fact is that the WS chooses the A. Not your fault.

Now what are you going to do about it. It sucks. It's not fair. It's BS for BS's. But now it's your choice to dig in and take control of your own life in whatever way you feel is best for your future.

Good luck.

Shaden