For the WS who comes back:

1. You can't live with the vision of your WS having sex with someone else.

2. You don't think you can ever trust the WS again.

3. There were multiple A's and it seems impossible to cure the problem.

4. Your friends and family can never accept the WS after what has happened.

For the WS who does not come back:

1. The WS is addicted to the excitement and thrill of the affair and moves on to another as the first one burns out.

2. The WS has a sexual addiction but refuses to seek help for a cure.

3. The WS won't come back because he/she believes the damage caused by the A is irreparable (trust, etc.)

4. The WS has re-written your marital history while under the fog but has brainwashed his/her self to believe it even after the affair burns out.

Wow - so what is the point of trying to get the marriage back??? This is the million dollar question...

I can totally see that all the above are/could be true in my situation, but why does one still fight even if they believe the above statements are true??

They aren't necessarily true; they may or may not be depending on the case.

You could also add:

- Some WS could be of weak or questionable character and will cheat again regardless if its in the same marriage or a new one.

They carry it with them where ever they go because they don't realize changing everything but themselves won't fix the problem.

The thing is, most of those reasons why not to reconcile with a wayward spouse who comes back to the marriage are emotions experienced by the betrayed spouse very early in the recovery process. One learns the images are much worse than the reality and one trusts again as the wayward spouse earns it back. Friends and family will generally accept what the betrayed spouse accept. If they don't, new friends can be made and extended family can be cautioned they need to respect the betrayed one's wishes. Multiple adulteries are, of course, nearly impossible to recover from.

As for the wayward spouses who do not come home, I think the argument is moot, isn't it? Perhaps I don't understand.

Here's another reason some marriages just don't make it...... the marriage is way out of synch, and filled with the problems that created the vulnerability for an affair to take place, and those problems either aren't addressed and resolved, or, all efforts to resolve those problems simply aren't successful.

SD

my family would lynch him if they saw him...xh that is. he has had ZERO CONTACT with any of my family since I left him...no contact. NEVER SPOKEN to any of my family members b/c he is A LYING COWARD.

he couldn't do it. couldn't face em. just could sign the checks of his parents, pay them off, to buy acceptance for his immorality.

his actions when I left him were totally in the eyes of now myself, and definitely in eyes of my family, irreconciliable...he did something quite abusive and as a result I had bruising...my family will never forget that and won't forgive him....and he's never asked for it either.

my xh did things that were/are sooooo bad that he knows his bridges were burned by that point.

i can barely look at him to this day. he knows that. and he has forged himself the chains that now tie him forever to his unholy mistress/wife. he dug the grave he is now in.

i am in sort of a black mood tonight...

today makes seven years to the day I lost my true knight in shining armor..the man who would have always been my defender and my rock...my father.

i lost him seven years ago this night.

to this day, I am still in shock that in the wake of my fathers' death...just two years later..while I was still suffering and just learning how to deal and cope, that my xh would violate our vows and do the dastardly (replace d with b ok?) thing and become the "creature" he is still to this very day. My father would have hunted him down like the dog he's become after finding out what he had done.

I really am missing him now...my dad...

I am 100 percent supportive to bs who truly want their m back and work like heck to achieve it. I really am.

but there are some who along the way, will lose ALL MOMENTUM...it's not bad. it is not a fault. every person has their breaking point. and some will find it.

others will reconcile and do wonderfully as many here have..

others will never reconcile and end up doing wonderfully as I have.

and others sadly, will reconcile and still end up divorced..probably due to some of the issues that you initially brought up. unless the heart and soul of the WS is 100 percent committed to change and to making amends for their wicked behaviors, I think all the above could really RE HAPPEN AGAIN...

unless there is a true change of heart and soul and mind.

I don't believe WS's change unless those three things are altered: heart, soul, and MIND.

Longhorn,

It's not really an argument, just an observation. Some wayward spouses who don't come back may actually want to, but feel they can't because of the damage done, bridges burned, etc.

Shattered,

Good point. Very true. And some marriages fail because of the deep seated flaws in one spouse that only come to the surface when the right conditions are met, none of which may be the responsibility of the BS.

Longhorn
"One learns the images are much worse than the reality and one trusts again as the wayward spouse earns it back."

What if this is not the case. The reality was much worse then the images. Up until about 3-4 weeks ago I had the images in my head of what happened and now the reality is much worse?

I personally believe this is why radical honesty is so important. If I would have known the reality of what happened then I would have reacted differently. Not saying a D but a lot of the behavior I have tolerated I would have had a lot less tolerence for. Because I did not believe that behavior contributed to the A in the first place. Now I know differently.

Hiker,

"Good point. Very true. And some marriages fail because of the deep seated flaws in one spouse that only come to the surface when the right conditions are met, none of which may be the responsibility of the BS. "

I agree and I think again this is why radical honesty is necessary. If you are not being honest with the BS then they will work on issues that are not real or pertinent. The deep seated flaws need to be addressed. You can hope for recovery in the face of these deep seated flaws as long as you know they are the true issue. IC, AA etc can help with these flaws once they are realized.

I really believe the main reason it won't work after an A is a lack of remorse on the WS part. Continuing an A after it is exposed, dishonesty, lack of empathy etc will make any sane person realize that things are not just their fault as the WS would have you believe.

The WS will focus on the BS' past mistakes as to why this happened but not want to count the A as a past mistake.(in some cases) IMHO.

"1. You can't live with the vision of your WS having sex with someone else.

2. You don't think you can ever trust the WS again.

3. There were multiple A's and it seems impossible to cure the problem.

4. Your friends and family can never accept the WS after what has happened.

For the WS who does not come back:

1. The WS is addicted to the excitement and thrill of the affair and moves on to another as the first one burns out.

2. The WS has a sexual addiction but refuses to seek help for a cure.

3. The WS won't come back because he/she believes the damage caused by the A is irreparable (trust, etc.)

4. The WS has re-written your marital history while under the fog but has brainwashed his/her self to believe it even after the affair burns out."

All of these are conditional on forecasting the future and not living in the present. They give the BS that endless mirror reflection and they experience all of the emotions as if they are happening repeatedly, endlessly.

Which is what I hear Hiker saying about the WS's who don't come home...they predict there will only be more suffering and pain, so do not come back.

Two people doing the same thing, same result. Only takes one to change the dynamic.

Switch to the present...and acknowledge:

"1. You can't live with the vision of your WS having sex with someone else."

You are living with those visions...and you have control over them. Greater or less than reality...you have the choice over your thoughts...

"2. You don't think you can ever trust the WS again."

See how living your future creates it? Acknowleding you don't trust your WS now matters. It is reality. You don't know what you will do in the future...trust is two ways...first earned, then given...you have a part, a choice...a slow process...predicting the future robs you of your own choice and experience.

"3. There were multiple A's and it seems impossible to cure the problem." This is a truth worth living up to--you can't cure a human being...the human does. I was a serial cheater...I believe getting to the truth of one A or several is the same...getting to the truth of self. However, if a BS continues to choose to view their spouse as something they can cause, control or cure...there is no chance of recovery due to being disrespectfully based in fantasy.

"4. Your friends and family can never accept the WS after what has happened." Again, predicting the future cements it...what you can accept matters...what others accept or do not, doesn't...you're half the marriage...they are not...and the more you hold to your own boundaries, the more others respect and choose their actions accordingly...predicting others will reject and then cutting off their opportunity to choose, is a DJ...cuts off the opportunity for friends and family to love, anyway.

"For the WS who does not come back:

1. The WS is addicted to the excitement and thrill of the affair and moves on to another as the first one burns out.

2. The WS has a sexual addiction but refuses to seek help for a cure.

3. The WS won't come back because he/she believes the damage caused by the A is irreparable (trust, etc.)

4. The WS has re-written your marital history while under the fog but has brainwashed his/her self to believe it even after the affair burns out."

Brainwashing doesn't last...I believe when WS's take their journey solo, away from their marriage partner...at some point, they learn...God never stops reaching, signalling, what their soul wants...and the jumping into the future is another device of distraction used to self-deceive.

I use these parallel perspectives to show how much alike a BS and WS can become...their choice...and it begins with choosing the perspective of the present. Not the future.

LA

I should have entitled this thread "Reasons why it might not work . . ."

Part of the reason I started it is to try to account for all the apparent Plan A/B failures that seem to be occurring on these boards.

Yes, I know there are a few successes, but I am still haunted by those poor BS's who have been working for years rather than weeks or months at trying to get the marriage back on track with little or no success.

It's frightening.

Gee, HL, what is your highest EN?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would agree that living in the future is a bad idea.

However we are a product of our past. If we do not learn from our past we are doomed to repeat it.

In this case I think if you look at underlying factors that may have contributed to the A then you need to see changes in those.

I IMHO trust is the most important issue. Again back to radical honesty. Since the A I have tried to trust my FWW and it has not really worked out well for me. I believe that with trust anything can be rebuilt.

However while the FWS or WS is in the fog nothing matters not even trust.

I also believe that genuine remorse on the WS can help through this time.

No matter how long ago the A happened and what happened during the A if remorse is present after the fact then you have a chance. If you see true remorse you can start trusting they know what they did was wrong. Then you will look at that past and know they learned and may not repeat it.

I believe at some point we all want to save our M but now I will put it back on the BS.

How many sit there and try to win their WS or FWS back just to prove to themselves they are not worthless? In the meantime they don't see what the BS or FWS is doing good.

I am rambling on this but I think it is a good topic. People should know what they are getting themselves into when they want to recover from this.

I think there needs to be more this type candid discussion. For whatever reason, it seems to be taboo here to discuss the idea that recurrences of affairs, old or new, can happen (even years later) once a person has had one. Which I have witnessed too many times to count in my years here.

Even Willard Harley has said that if his wife was to cheat he would divorce her, no question.

Did Harley really say that? That's incredible!

You don't suppose that's Harley's way of preventing an affair by making the outcome clear should it happen, do you?

I always told my WH that if he ever cheated it would be over. Didn't stop him. He would always kid me and say..that's all it would take?

I am apparently one of those people. I don't post out here much because I have been stomped sometimes because some people think theirs is the only way.

My H's A began about 3 years ago. Was EA for around 6 mos. to a year (I think) became a PA which lasted a little over a year. I didn't find out until all this had been going on for almost two years. I took 6 months to gather evidence (PI, all kinds of stuff) and when I had absolute proof, I exposed. The PA ended. The EA did not. In fact, there is still some limited contact even now. I plan Ad for almost a year. I plan B'd (with a plan D) when I just couldn't take any more. It seemed to work, but even the NC letter was a sham. He is completely unrepentant, everything has always been my fault, yada yada yada. I continue to be the best wife he will allow me to be, and yet there is no recovery. At my age (57) I have decided I can wait until he regains his sanity. I really don't know if that is what MB would have me do, but it is my approach at this time.

I would love to have advice on what to do next, but don't need more criticism - I get plenty of that from my WH.

This thread struck a chime in me - as I have feared, maybe it will never work out. Several of the things you listed fit my situation to a T. I even did phone counseling with Steve twice, but WH REALLY resented it.

I would love to know how this is all going to turn out, but right now it's like staring down into a dark hole. And I have been staring into it for 3 years, approximately.

Any suggestions? Any help for a struggler? No 2X4's, please.

God, how I wish I could help people who are feeling the same pain as I am!

That may be the only saving grace of this board for people like me, that sharing our pain helps us through it.

For weeks I grasped at any thread of hope at saving my marriage. I tried so hard to find a solution to my own dilemma from the experience of others. I applied the MB principles as best I could, and yet I am clearly headed for divorce as soon as it is legally available.

I suggest you go to family counseling. The fact that your ss is threatening and being so disrespectful is very worrisome.

I'm okay. He's all talk; typical teenage bravado trying to act the way he thinks a man should act. I'm not intimidated, just hurt.

I've been counseled by SH. We weren't getting anywhere because my wife refuses counseling so I was in Plan A, but my contact with the OM has thrown my wife into a rage.

I have to say this is a really good thread for me and I hope it continues. I'm at the very starting point of my Husbands A. He is unrepentant and unremorseful and just wants to be able to tell the world he offered me reconciliation but I wouldn't let him. He has done and said EVERYTHING to make it impossible for me to say 'Yes'. Yet, I'm still confused and unsure and still trying to decide what to do. I've been wanting to ask the question 'how many people here have gone through years of trying to recover to only end up divorced anyway?' and the impression I'm getting from MB is that most marriages survive. Is that true? The way I'm looking at it is this: I've just turned 30. I have a baby who doesn't even really know that her Dad is 'Dad' because he's been away from her life for so long. I have a H who, when asked how I would know he would never do this to me again, said 'if you can't be the wife you should be and give me no reason to turn away from you again then you confirm all my suspicions'. So, what if I say yes and in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years realise that I had been given a way out of he!! and I should have taken it and run.

As resilient said, candid discussion like this might help someone like me to not make the biggest mistake of my life. But then, not trying might be too.

Lucyloo,

I've found that one of the most obvious tactics used by wandering spouses to justify the affair is to make the betrayed spouse the villain. This can be done in a lot of ways. For example, during the affair, when I was yet unaware of it, my wife tried to pick fights with me about the most ridiculous issues. What should have been a dead giveaway that something deeper was wrong was the extreme anger she showed and no attempt at reconciliation after the argument. Both the extreme anger and not softening up afterward were uncharacteristic of my wife. She was, in fact, trying to be angry with me to alleviate some of her guilt.

After the affair was revealed, she tried to justify not working on the marriage by saying things like "You could never trust me again." With her actions and her words she was trying to manipulate me to make the decision that we should get a divorce, so she could tell people she had no choice in the matter.

With regard to the apparent statistic that most affairs do not end in divorce, I would like to point out that:

1. At least half or more of all marriages end in divorce.
2. Many affairs go undetected by the betrayed spouse.

Couldn't it be that there are many more divorces due to affairs than we know about simply because the affair went undetected and the spouses divorced for what the BS thought was something else entirely?

I have been giving this some in depth thought over this weekend.

I think what really needs to be looked at before you commit to recovery is your spouses behavior before the A.

In many cases we look at the A as an isolated incident. Now what I have realized is that the A is the same problem that we have had in our M it just manifested itself in a different way.

If the A is just another way of manifesting the same behavior you have problems if you want to recover.

The main problem is that you need to ask a person with deep seeded problems to realize they have problems. We all know how that works.

If on the other hand things were really bad in your M before the A and you bear some responsibility for the deterioration of your M then maybe there is a chance for recovery.

I don't want to make this post to long but I have some other things I need to think through before posting them.

That makes sense. A deep-rooted problem in one spouse is a different animal than a marriage where some emotional needs have just been ignored or neglected.

My own marriage fell into a kind complacent stage after a few years. Not that anything was bad, but we lost some romance because of the kids, work, and our own efforts to go to night school to improve our credentials. But I certainly never had a sense that things were bad, nor apparently did my wife when one reads the last Father's Day card to me (just a month before the affair started).

She doesn't really know why it happened. I am her third husband, so I guess there's a good chance she needs a psychiatrist.

I thought it made sense too.

The other question that keeps coming to mind is how big these EN's that were not being met really were? Then how many are really just a revision of history?

The FWS has had a lot more time to think about how horrible things were to justify their behavior at the time.

Here we are going along not knowing anything. One day we get blasted out of the water. I don't know about anyone else but my power of reason disappeared. I am usually able to think coherently but at this point I couldn't so what she presented me with became my truth. If she told me I didn't do something or didn't meet her EN it must be true.

Now I realize what she presented me with regarding my deficiencies(sp) was blown way out of proportion.

Heck in trying to address some of her EN's that were not being met I realized I was not really the root cause.

Just like you some of the "romance" left because of our situation. Mine was a little different. I worked she stayed at home. Two kids. She refused to make my oldest sit down and do his homework when he came home. Usually after a great deal of fighting with him when I got home he finished between 7:30 and 8:30 pm. Then because my wife decided to lay down with the youngest, against my wishes, he would not go to sleep without one of us in there. That pretty much tied up every night until around 9:30. If it was her night to lay down with him she fell asleep in there or she was to pissed off to have a good night. On my nights she was either pissed off or drunk when I came out.

Now when we discussed this issue I brought up those two points and her response was "so it is all my fault?". I said I don't know who the fault lies with but I do remember saying at least a dozen times over this last year how tired I am of this and we never spend time together. You are the one who told me that this is what having kids is about.

Well didn't we make a little revision since then. MY EN's were not being met and that was fine but then you have an A and yours weren't being met because of this situation. I thought you said that's what happens when you have kids.

Then I asked her what I could have done at that time differently. You told me that situation was fine with you. It was not fine with me. But because you created the environment it was OK. I could understand if I was the one that started laying down with the youngest until he would not go to sleep without us in there but that's not what happened.

So now the answer is well it is not going to change anything no matter who caused the situation. It is what it is. Really my EN's were not being met you talked me into believing I should be fine with that then you go have an A and use that as a reason to have it.

It changes a lot. It means you are able to do something then try to blame me for it. Now when it is put back to you nobody should be to blame.

Guess what that is one of her deepseeded problems.

Well that was precisely my point to my wife. She had 9 months in the affair to basically document my every fault, real or imagined, on a list that might have been entitled "Reasons why my marriage is bad." The more emotionally involved she got with the OM, the more she contributed to that list. And nobody was in my corner to defend me.

Can you imagine what the conversation was with the OM while laying in bed? Yeah, my husband did this or doesn't do that, etc.

I posted this under another thread:

If I had it to do over again, I think I would leave immediately upon finding out about the affair. Why? Because on the night that I confronted her with the evidence she at least took the blame by saying "I don't know why I did it."

Now she is telling everyone that our marriage was at fault. In a sense I'm to blame for that, because I said we need to work on the marriage and "I need to do a better job of meeting your emotional needs." By doing that, I essentially accepted at least partial blame for the affair, and she has taken that ball and run with it. It allowed her to assuage her guilt and make me the villain. In short, by accepting blame I have given her an excuse to latch onto in explaining the affair.

Had I move out immediately into a no contact separation, that wouldn't have happened.

My FWW took full responsibility at first then the tide changed really quickly.

Mine happened in the second session of the MC. He asked me "Do you want to try to save your M. I said yes I do. He asked her the same thing she said "I don't know things have been so bad for so long and he has hurt me so much I don't know if I can ever forgive him."

BTW I had just taken responsibility for my actions. LOL.

I wish I would have walked out that night.

I accepted my faults and she ran with it.

Funny thing was that when it came down to it she made them all up to justify her actions.

Of course she had no EA with the OM to begin with. She barely knew the guy so he was not filling any EN's that I wasn't. She actually barely knew him. First night out boom she cheated. End of story. Deep seeded problems.

Took her 13 months to admit that it happened the first night. I would have to think she kept that to herself because if she admitted it was the first night then she really had no time to think of those justifications. Those happened after a week of so of her running around.

Boy do I feel stupid for buying into my part when she now says it was because of the Alcohol.

Yes, my wife couldn't have developed an emotional tie to the OM either. There were always too many people around for her to talk in anything but the most superficial way. Then one night she went to his motel room.

The rest is history, or maybe I should say, I was history. Because now this guy can do no wrong and I can do nothing right. It doesn't matter that he has a reputation as a womanizer. It doesn't matter that he is married too.

It doesn't matter that we have a little boy who will wonder why mommy and daddy don't live together anymore.

Is adultery a selfish act? I don't know if I can think of anything more selfish that hurts so many people so badly.

Well of course he can do nothing wrong it is a fantasy.

One time I made the comment about us fighting and them never fighting. She said we never had a reason to fight.

I reminded her that when my Aunt got tired of her running around on me and wanted to put a stop to it they got into a fist fight and she ran down to OM to help her get out.

He refused saying he would get kicked out if he did. He lived in my Aunts basement apartment. Thats where the A took place.

I asked if they fought about this and she said no. I said so you did all these things for him, threw your marriage away and he couldn't help you get your stuff out of my Aunts house and you didn't get mad at him? Where do I sign up for that treatment. LOL. No as a matter of fact she called and appologized to him for putting him in that situation.

So the OP can do wrong but if that is admitted wouldn't it be admitting there was a flaw in the WS not the marriage.

If the same problems exist everywhere you go maybe it's you.

As someone said, the lack of remorse really gets to you. The closest my wife has come to remorse was to say that she was sorry she hurt me; nothing about being sorry for the adultery itself, the lies, the deception, etc., and even then it was said in such a casual manner that no one could mistake it for sincerity.

If someone were to stab you in the back with a sharp knife and then say I'm sorry that hurt, what would that tell you about them? That they seem to lack empathy? That they seem to lack basic human decency?

Is that what this fantasy infatuation can do to a person, or is this just a side of my wife that has always existed and I haven't seen before?

HL & Hiker,

"Reasons why it won't work even after the A is over"

I think you've really hit on an important reason, contained in these last two posts...

An affair is entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

I see this in both of your posts...because going from wayward to formerly wayward is a process...takes two people, not one...

Your WW's felt entitled to their A's, fueled that entitlement with resentment and lack of respect for you.

Can you not see how you are doing the same?

Hiker...your wife said she was sorry for hurting you...and I hear you saying, "not good enough."

You were hurt by lies, the choice to betray, all the self-deception and deceiving she did to you...you were hurt by it. She is sorry...remorse is acting on that sorrow...

What appears a casual manner to you may indeed be a brave statement...your DJ is that lack of respect...same as she had before her A.

No one can undo the stab to your back...what would that tell you about them? That they give themselves permission to retaliate at real or imagined pain...they give themselves allowances to put their pain before the marriage...before you...and that is what I see you doing here.

The fantasy infatuation comes directly from the amount of resentment piled up, coupled with the permissions; resentment is self-created and devastating.

How's yours?

I have yet to see a marriage where only one partner resents...in mine, I know what it is to resent my H's resentment, and he, mine...and we piled it high...

"or is this just a side of my wife that has always existed and I haven't seen before?"

Have you not seen it in yourself, microscopically? Where you knew what your wife wanted to do something, you didn't want to...had something else you wanted to do...and you came up with reasons which sounded justified...and didn't do it? Or did?

No, adultery isn't microscopic...if you want to have a marriage between two humans, you gotta go within, too, to find answers.

Judgment does not rebuild marriages. Cannot establish intimacy, trust or security. It feels like a knife in the back, pre-A, post-A...and the stabbing continues. Only it's a blade without a handle...to plunge it in, you bleed, also.

LA

Here are some points I would like to make:

1. The BS is not at fault for the affair.
2. After the affair is discovered, if the BS accepts the notion that marital problems preceded the affair (e.g., not meeting emotional needs), the BS inadvertently gives the WS justification for the affair.
3. This is a boost to the affair and allows it to continue as the WS latches onto and cites a myriad of events (real or imagined) that are "proof" that the marriage had problems.
4. Plan A tries to counter this by removing the lovebusters from their daily existence.
5. Meanwhile, the A continues.
6. The WS still refuses to stop the A or vacillates or declares that he/she needs time to think.
7. A separation ensues, either by the WS to see the OP more often or by the BS for Plan B.
8. The outcome falls into three categories:

a. The WS and OP live happily ever after.
b. The WS and OP break up but either the BS or WS are no longer motivated to reconcile.
c. The WS and OP get back together and attempt reconciliation.

My problem is that the last outcome doesn't seem to happen very often. Am I wrong?

I served WH D papers last week. Something I did not at all take lightly. I felt it was the right thing to do at the time.

He has yet to admit to me that he is in an A.

They are living together.

Had he admitted, maybe things could have been different. I asked for truthfulness, I got lies.

D won't be final for a few more months. In a sick sort of way I still have hope, maybe he'll wake up and see the damage that he's done.

I would consider category "c" if he'll admit to it, but I think it's more realistic to see it will end up in category "a".

Category A is apparently the least probable of the three choices. I say that because of what I've read, but oddly enough, I have been hearing about numerous instances of the WS and OP staying together for years from my friends.

hiker

i realize that all of the reasons you listed for why it might not work are real possibilities

however, i am willing to accept the risk that they will happen to have the chance for a success reconcilliation

although, like you, all i seem to see right now are situations where the affair partners stay together for the long haul......my situation included

On point 1, first I don't understand the need to assign fault. IMHO, finding fault does not help end the A, help with marital recovery, etc. At the core of the choice to have an A is two things, opportunity and ability to justify the behavior. Opportunity comes from time apart, life style, someone making a pass at your S, etc. Yes, you can hope your S never has the opportunity, but realistically, there is always opportunity. The second is the ability to justify the action. Again, there a million reasons why people could justify the action. State of the marriage, mid life crisis, depression, drugs or alcohol, low moral character, revenge, etc. Some of these reasons, the BS played a part in, others they did not. I don't see this as cause and effect per se, where we need to find fault. I see this more as a stimulus and response. The BS did not cause the A, but may have provided a stimulus. The WS responded with a choice of action, that, at the time, they felt was justified. Getting to why they felt justified can be done without blame and with out agreeing that their logic or choice was the correct thing to do.

On points 2 and 3, I don't think the BS has to accept the notion that marital problems preceded the A. Either they come to that conclusion or they don't. I suppose one could argue that the mere fact an A occurred is evidence or marital problems, but I guess there could be a scenario where the M is bliss and an A occurs. Possible but not probable, so to speak. I don't think this gives a boost of justification to the WS. In fact, I would imagine that if in fact that the BS and WS agree there where M problems, this actually softens the WS ability to justify the A. I would imagine that many WS assume as part of there rationale to justify the A, that the BS would never understand that there were marital problems.

On Point 4, plan is not just about avoiding LB's. Plan A is about meeting EN's. More importantly, plan A is about reversing the trend in your M. Before D-Day, before the A, the WS was unhappy, an opportunity arose, they used their rationale to modify their value you system to justify an A, they start getting their EN's met elsewhere. Its all bliss for a period of time, because the interaction with the OP is so limited and so novel, that the real life troubles are suspended. As the A continues undiscovered, the BS starts LB'ng more, not understanding why his S is gone or becoming more detached. The WS feels stressed when they are around the BS because they have to hide the A and the BS is lashing out because the WS is meeting less and less on the BS needs. The WS feels great around the OP, nothing to hide, the OP is not lashing out because their needs are being met. This trend keeps moving in this direction until D-Day. The WS saying simply I feel great around OP and feel miserable around BS. Plan A is all about reversing this trend. Exposure is the first salvo of the fight and it immediately adds stress to the WS while the are with OP. Snooping, watching, confronting also reduce the happiness involved in the A. All the while, you are working on yourself. Increasing the amount of happiness the WS gets during their time with you. This process, this plan eats away at the WS justification. The WS thought the BS would never change, yet change is happening, the WS thought the BS didn't love them, yet they are loving them every day, the WS thought the OP was perfect, yet they are starting to see flaws.

On points 5 and 6, yes the A may continue, yes they may cake eat, yes they may say they need more time. You continue with plan A, with plan B in your pocket.

On point 7, separation does not always ensue. Sometimes the WS does leave, sometimes you have to do plan B.

On point 8, well these are going to be some of the outcomes. Also WS and BS could get a D and WS has nothing to do with OP or BS. I also assume you meant item C is the WS and BS get back together. Also, I think this board is full of people who achieve outcome C. Finally, not everyone has to go to a plan B.

Just my 2 cents

Saying the BS is not at fault for the affair is not assigning fault; simply saying what it says.

Does fault need to be assigned? I don't know, but responsibility needs to be taken for the choices we make, to say otherwise is to avoid taking responsibility.

No where did I say that an A can follow where the M is "bliss." How many married couples do you know who qualify for being blissful? ALL married couples have at least some kind of problems in their relationship; hopefully they don't all react to those problems by having an affair.

Getting a divorce falls into category b.

Hiker -

No plan B required to date in my sitch. WW and OM appear to be broken up owing to a major meltdown on OM's part after NC letter sent Friday.

WW no longer at the workplace, acting thoughtful and repentant. Has told me she'll do what it takes to rebuild.

Don't know if this is encouraging to your or not... Be very careful about getting caught up in "payback". Get stuck in that line of thinking and you'll never get out. There is nothing a WS can do to repay the BS for what they've done. Nothing. It's not about retribution. If it was no one would recover.

I agree remorse is what makes you want to pull closer.

Resentment can be fueled by a lot of issues.

My analogy to my wife was this.

You are walking down the street and some one bumps into you and knocks you down. There are several different things that can happen next that will give you an indication of what type of person it was that bumped into you.

That person can:
Stop, apologize and help you up.
Stop, apologize then keep going.
Apologize on the fly.
Give you a dirty look for getting in their way.
Give you a dirty look and tell you watch where you are going.
Stop, apologize and help you up then push you down yet again becuase it was your fault for the original collision.

Remorse is stopping, apologizing and helping you up.

Of course resentment will set in when someone stops apologizes then keeps pushing you down.

My FWW admitted after almost three years that she lied this whole time about the amount of everything.

When she did it went like this.

Did you....
Yes I did. Next question.

Did you....
Yes I did. Does that make you feel better now?

Am I missing the remorse?

When I asked how she could lie to me for 3 years her answer was "I didn't lie to you I just didn't think it was important" Trust me it was important. Then her words not mine "I have forgiven myself for these things long ago so they aren't important to me." I am sorry to tell you but my FWW sleeping with OM on our anniversary should be important to her. The fact that she could live with the lies lets me know the amount of remorse she really had.

So yes I resent the fact that she did that. Yes I resent the fact that she led me to believe there was something I could have done to stop it.

Her answer to not having the A was me being there. If I were there none of this would have happened. LOL and she expects me to trust her.

By the way HL - Honesty is your higest EN, right? I think that's great. When WW asked me - yet again - what I wanted I told her 1) for today, honesty about the present (feelings, events, etc) 2) for a later day, honesty about the past.

That's where it ALL starts -- honesty. My part in this being in being emotionally honest.

Also, GREAT analogy regarding resentment. I'm going to copy/paste that one into my notes. OK?

Hiker -

I guess your missing my point. I don't know the purpose of your question/statements.

If your premise was to lay out why it won't work after the A is over, then I can only assume that either A) this is what you believe will happen, or B) You are asking people to offer solutions to what you think will happen, or C) You are asking people to point out a flaw in your observation.

If its A, then I agree, that's exactly what will happen. If its B or C, then perhaps you can clarify what evidence on these boards leads you to believe points 2-7. As I have seen many other threads that have followed a different path.

Are you looking just to vent, which is okay, or are there specific points you don't understand or want people to share their own experience?

I only ask, because it is my personal opinion that at least the BS or the WS must wholeheartedly believe that marital recovery is possible. If neither do, then it will most likely not happen. If your WS does not believe this, then hopefully you can be convinced that it is possible.

Post deleted by Hiker45

rprynne,

The thread should have been entitled "Reasons why it MIGHT not work . . ."

MDC,

I wouldn't say honesty is my biggest EN. Because I demand honesty from everyone I deal with. If someone is not being honest or I beleive they are purposely lying though ommision the I have problems with them.

I demand this when dealing with me because I am an honest person. I really don't have the energy or the brain to keep up a lie.

I learned this at the tender age of 15. It is funny so I will tell you the story that changed my life.

I was 15 I met a girl at a teen night that was 18. I don't know what happened but I lied to her and told her I was 17. Ok I know what happened I wanted to be with her and thought if she knew I was only 15 she probably wouldn't want to be with me. So one day I actually hooked up with her best friend. Hey I was only 15 what do you expect.

A few days later she came over and asked me "Do you have something to tell me?" Well stupid me I fessed up to the thing with her friend. OOPS. She was talking about my age. She knew I was only 15 because she got a copy of my schools yearbook and saw I was only a freshmen.

She was shocked and said I was asking you about your age. I said oh then I am only 15. That pretty much ended that. LOL.

So from that time on I just figured why lie it only makes things confusing and I am not that smart. LOL.

The sad thing about the analogy is I told her that after I uncovered the 20th lie or so. She kept pushing me down for the next two years.

Now I look back and I do not see much remorse. I see someone that just wanted me to get over it.

I think the point of both people wanting recovery is true. I have tried to convince her things will work.

She actually said in our last information confirmation session she is always waiting for the next shoe to drop. I said of course you had to know I was not moving on until you were honest. You just dropped a whole bunch of next shoes. But of course it was my fault for the other shoe dropping. I should have just let it go and not demanded honesty in my relationship.

Hiker, I've been there... and in a way still am. My W has apologized in different ways... but probably never in the way that I wished she would.

I know you just want her to say how wrong she was, how great you are, it is all her fault, etc. etc.. ...and most importantly... it will never happen again, because she knows now just how fantastic her spouse is. We all do.

But what is worse? Not getting the remorse that you want right now, fairly soon after the A? Or your W just telling you what you want to hear to make things better but she not really changing or healing on the inside? It would make it so much easier if they would just "get it", come back 100% to the M and we live happily ever after. It just doesn't work that way. Be thankful that, at the very least, even if it is not what you want to hear, that your W is being honest with you.
My W has never came back and said she is so in love with me. She does love me but admits she doesn't know if she loves me enough. For now, that is enough. What I appreciate is that she has never given me false hope this past year. She could have taken the easy road and told me what I wanted to hear so we could sweep it under the carpet. She has respected me and our M enough to be truthful.
That is one of the first steps in recovery and rebuilding... is both of you being real and truthful.

It sucks... but I believe it shows hope. How you deal with her truth will partly determine how the future is.

Shaden

I believe that marital recovery is possible after an affair. I don't believe it is possible if the WS doesn't want it to work out. The idea with MB is to either help them want it by making a return to the marriage an attractive choice, or wait out the affair and try to pick up the pieces.

My problem is that as I study these boards I keep reading people who have been working at this for YEARS, and many who worked diligently and failed anyway.

That is depressing to me. And yes, I have been analyzing and overanalyzing my own situation to death trying to find answers. I have been to other sites where the philosophy is almost directly opposite of MB (Huizenga says NEVER accept blame in the marriage when your spouse is having an affair; NEVER tell family and friends because it will appear that you are trying to enlist their aid).

Who is right? Who gets results? I don't know.

Clearly I need to try to Plan A to move away from the animosity that my wife has developed for me since I have been exposing the affair, but the only time I have ever seen my wife act like this is with her 2nd ex-husband. From my vantage point, it looks as though I will be the third.

For those of you who are wondering, my reaction to my wife telling me she was sorry for hurting me was this:

"I know you didn't hurt me intentionally. And I'm sorry that I didn't meet all your needs."

I am acknowledging the apology and taking some blame for the marital issues that she now believes are responsible for setting up the conditions for the affair.

The WS doesn't want it to work out. That's the nature of a WS. There is way too much "rent" due in working it out. As you know, the A has to become less attractive and more difficult to maintain than the reward that WW is getting from it.

Don't take any blame. Your blame justifies the A. OK for you to own your behaviour pre-A but as you do so, separate that behavior from your WW's decision to have the A. "I know now that I did not place the highest priority on our M and our family. I see that now. And I am full of remorse and regret for my actions. My actions, however, were not responsible for your A. I did not 'cause' your A. Just as you did not 'cause' me to put our marriage 2nd."

Something like that. Separate your actions from hers. Constantly draw that line. In your own mind and hers. I was full of resentment for my WW pre-A. Could I trace it back to her and blame her for the resentment? Sure I could. Is that me owning my own behavior? No way. Resentment was my reaction to WW. I control my reaction. Affair was my WW's reaction to my resentment. She controls her reaction.

I'm sure WW could trace her behavior - that I responded to with resentment - to something I did. Which I could trace to something she did. And so on, and so on, and so on... Never ends. Stop. Own your stuff. Let her own hers.

See I think what the problem is here is that every WS is different in some ways.

Maybe we should set up a personality test for FWS or WS and not let them know it is about how we should try to get to recovery.

For example if you have a stubborn WS then you don't go to plan A you go to plan U. etc.

They take the test then based on the way they deal with situations we can put ourselves in the best position to deal with that type of personality.

If they wait for you to take responsibility then dump it on you then you should never admit fault. Because if you do they will be content with you fixing yourself and them not fixing themselves.

If they are responsible people then you can admit your part because you know they will take their part as well.

This may get to the root issues much quicker. If you know that your FWS will only work on her problems if she is forced to then you go into plan B until she does.

I am starting the site tomorrow. LOL.

Hiker,

You are right that sometimes this goes on for years and other times, one of the couple makes a decision to get out rather quickly... and then, fortunately, we hear about the successes.

I think that too much emphasis of Plan A is placed on meeting needs. This is important as your Spouse needs to feel there is something worth coming back to... but the more important part is learning about yourself and growing into a better person.

I don't necessarily think that either staying and working on the M or leaving to build a new life is right or wrong... it is what you are learning personally through it and it is different for each person. I have chosen to stay and work on my M, but more importantly to work on myself... to become accepting, loving, patient, compassionate, confident, strong, independent and so on. I told my W several times that neither I nor any other man can "make" her happy... she has to do that for herself... but I never got it until recently that I wasn't taking my own advice. I was relying on my W to make me happy and was miserable because she wasn't working as hard as I thought she should. When I talk to her about it, she thinks things are going well. I need to find my own happiness and choose to do so while staying in my M... because I love my W and my sons. Because I have hope, patience and faith.

It may not work out, but the time will come when either I know I have done everything for myself that I can in this relationship and then choose to leave, or our M will become so strong and loving because I have done the work I needed to do.

MB rules are guidelines that have helped a lot of people... but they aren't 100% accurate for all situations. I don't follow them 100% which is one of the reasons I don't offer advice very often on these threads... I don't feel I should unless they are in line with MB practices.

One of the best pieces of advice I recieved on here is to stop looking at the recovery on a daily basis. The ups and downs are so many that it is frustrating and disappointing most days. You need to measure on a monthly or longer period of time. When I was ready to give up a couple of weeks ago because I felt my W was not giving what I wanted... I forgot this advice. When I looked at how my life is now compared to 1 year ago, I would have to say it is a miracle... but when I look at it compared to 1 month ago... it felt like we had stalled or taken some steps back. Recovery will be like that. It is always better to look at the long range picture (kind of like the stock market). It has been difficult for me to learn patience... but it is the most important thing I am learning right now.

Shaden

Post deleted by Hiker45

The funny thing is that everyone in my house is "getting some" except for me and my four-year-old son.

Hiker - Ok - You believe it is possible. I saw on your other posts that it looks like you are doing the right things. I agree its not possible if your WS doesn't never wants to work it. I mean at first, they usually don't want to work it out, right? (all though some FWS do). So, in its simplest form MB principles try to influence the WS to want to work it out. But there is a lot of subtly and nuance to this influence.

Yes, there are people on these boards who have tried for years and worked hard. But I don't think they have failed. Look at it this way, the MB principles goal is for people to be happy. Period. They want people to be happy. Okay, so both the WS and BS have the same goal of a happy life. The hard part of recovery is both BS and WS agreeing on the way to get there.

Now, it is the assertion of MB that most people are their happiest when they are in a loving, romantic marriage. They don't say the only way to be happy is to be in a loving romantic M. In fact, they say the #1 cause of unhappiness is being in a non-loving, unromantic M. And thus, most of their principles focus on having a good M.

However, some BS disagree that a M recovery with their WS is they way to be happy. Some make that decision on D-Day, others during the process. But just because they don't recover their M doesn't mean they failed. Some WS disagree with the above assertion. Some agree but want to try it with OP. Some disagree at first, then eventually change their mind.

Post D-Day, and after the dust settles, everyone on these boards should sit down and say what is going to make me happy. I think most of us conclude (WS and BS), that having a loving, romantic M with our current S is the best choice. The BS usually comes to this conclusion first, a few weeks after D-Day. The WS usually takes a lot longer.

Why does it usually take longer, lots of reasons. 1) At that time, they believe they have to options to choose from to achieve the goal of a happy M. 2) Most likely they have spent considerable time pondering that question and are already leaning toward leaving the BS. 3)They are usually convinced that a happy M with BS was immpossible before and is even more so now that there is the discovery of an A. Another way to look at it is think if you were scoring this. Say it takes a score of 100 to decide to recommitt to the M. Pre-D-Day, a BS might score a 50, but the WS probably scores a -50. Post D-Day, the BS might drop to a 0, but the same drop happens in the WS and they are at -100. To get back to 100 for both people, the WS has to move twice as far as the BS, and this takes longer.

Plan A and plan B are in effect working on yourself. Working on your own personal recover. The side effect is that it provides evidence to the WS that having a loving, romantic M with their S is the best choice. Notice I don't say convince or manipulate, its about providing evidence.

As far as other methods. I think you can determine what is the right approach. I once posted a similar question. IMHO, its a combination of approaches and using what is appropriate. I think the real thing is to be different than what you were, if you know what I mean. I think the MB approach tends to believe that A's happen when the parties are withdrawn, so don't be withdrawn. I think some other approaches assume A's happen when one party is not attractive to another, so be attractive. (And there are many opinions about what is attractive). What may help, is to think about how you were when you first met. I know when I first met my FWW, I was active, did lots of different things, was upbeat, seldom was critical of her, always showing my best side, etc. Then somewhere along the way I developed some bad habits. Usually, going back to the habits you had when you first met are a good start. If your still not sure, post that question. Basically, "I'm thinking of being more ______, I say this because I think my FWW _____. What do you think?"

Also, agree 100% with what MDC said.

Hurting - also agree that the right path or plan varies very much based on the WS. I think the core principles always apply, but different sublities or nuances are appropriate depending on the sitch.

I think that should be the core principle. Find the beast you are dealing with before you start to deal with it.

It is also why I believe radical honesty is the most important thing when it comes to the A. There is nothing like dealing with the first set of "issues" for a few months only to find out they were BS. When more truth's come out.

The sooner you know the details the sooner you can figure out what beast you are trying to slay.

No sense pouring your energy into justifications if they are just that. Fixing your problem when in all reality it was just a justification can tend to piss someone off.

So I will be speaking with a web developer to get my personality test for FWS or WS in order.

Well I agree with most of what you are saying. First, I realize that the inability to convince your WS to work on the marriage leaves you one option; work on yourself.

I don't have the problem that some do from the physcal standpoint. I'm actually in better shape physically now than I was when we were married; not fat, athletically toned, etc. I run two miles three times a week and I lift weights. I have more gray hair than I did five years ago, but she has never complained about that. The fact is, my physical appearance shouldn't be a factor because everyone who has seen the OM finds it inexplicable that my wife would be drawn to him.

And the fact is, that isn't why she is drawn to him. Physical attraction wasn't even on her list of emotional needs.

So why was she attracted to this guy? I don't know. Maybe she doesn't either. It certainly couldn't be for conversation; he barely speaks English. Not admiration; he doesn't know anything about what she does. Not family commitment; he's cheating on his own wife. Sexual fulfillment; well, no one knows how to press her buttons better than I do -- but the psychological factor may be in his favor. Affection; I admit that trailed off in the last few years because we were so busy with work, school, and kids.

Naturally the physical side is just part of it. I'm working on other aspects of my self too. Did we have problems in the marriage? I didn't think so. We certainly had fewer problems than anyone I knew. Why did I get this wonderful Father's Day card this time last year telling me these were the best years of her life and she loved me more everyday -- this happening one month before the affair started.

Have I been tempted to have an affair? I had opportunity. I had a willing subject (a woman making advances). But I didn't act on it. Is that because all my emotional needs are being met to my satisfaction? No. It's because the risk of losing my family is not worth the "reward" of a relationship with another woman. And oddly enough, "knowing" that my wife would never cheat on me helped me stay on the right side of the line.

I don't believe that all affairs are due to the BS's failure to meet the WS's emotional needs.

I don't know what kind of beast I'm up against other than it has the most powerful hold on my wife that I have ever seen. Like an addiction to a drug or alcohol, my wife is willing to give up our family to pursue this affair. She has convinced herself that our 4 year old son can easily adjust to divorce even though her failed second marriage left my stepson an emotional cripple with a chip on his shoulder the size of a 2x4.

I don't doubt that the affair will burn out. What I doubt is my wife's ability to ever see things in their proper light. I believe she has convinced herself that our marriage was too seriously flawed to try to save. Will she change this opinion when the emotions of the fantasy fall flat?

That is the question. I would wait a long time if I could know the answer was yes.

You're right on this one, Hiker. Not meeting EN's is only a part of it...sometimes the main part, other times it had very little to do with it. Psychologists say that even just a person's past hurts can help put them into a position of an A... maybe they are afraid of abandonment, afraid of intimacy, have been abused or had parents who cheated... maybe they suffer from depression or an addiction. Mid-life crisis... a term used loosely is a real factor in some cases. There are so many variables... which is why we work on ourselves. There are always things we could do better in our marriage... but the reason or fault that she had an A is not yours.

My W would tell you that I was putting a lot more into our M pre-A and now... that I was trying to meet her ENs... but she still had an A. The MC thought it was to do with her past, and because of the good guy/bad guy theory. I was too nice.... Someone else is too distant, too busy, too ugly, too giving, too taking... there are so many reasons... but the simple fact is that the WS chooses the A. Not your fault.

Now what are you going to do about it. It sucks. It's not fair. It's BS for BS's. But now it's your choice to dig in and take control of your own life in whatever way you feel is best for your future.

Good luck.

Shaden

Hiker - I think you are on the right path. I don't think its so much that your left with only one option, I think its more of a realization that only one option ever existed. Be the best you can be, make the right decisions for your happiness, and the things around you will work out.

It sounds as if you've done a lot of thinking about what caused the A. What I would encourage is to think about what made your S unhappy. This is really the root cause. As Shaden listed, there are many things that can cause people to be unhappy. Meeting EN's may not have been the problem, it could be something else.

The thing is, usually once the A starts, the WS is either too confused, or too much running on a day to day type of approach to really tell you what made them unhappy. If that makes any sense.

So, you have to do that work yourself. Figure out what it is. Just keep reading, researching, and eventually it will become clear to you. You can pick it up in things she says and actions she takes.

When you think about convincing your WS about working on the M. Think of it this way, she was unhappy, she decided to experiment to see if something else can make her happy. She found something that appears to make her happy. She was/is going to hold onto that. Now post d-day, she is probably not happy again. Its time for her to experiment again. What will she choose? The M or the A. Well in her view, right now, she has tried both the A and the M and the A makes her happy. So you have to change the game, so to speak.

Finally, on the question of patience. The how long should you wait. What would you do right now, if the you knew her answer was no? Think about that, and think about it in the bigger picture of time. What are you losing by giving this some time? Really? Are you in a big hurry to start another R? Are you passing up anything?

I think this way of thinking can be very empowering. You aren't waiting around to see if she wants to save the M, your motivation is not derived via her desire. Its your choice and you are going to do what you think is best for you. Right now you think what is best is to save your M. Tommorrow, you may not think that. Whether she wants to come along for the ride or not, does not change your action plan.

Hiker - I'm a big fan of Shirly Glass' "Not Just Friends". Explains how various personalities, environments, upbringings, etc. spawn affairs. I'm a big believer in the MB pricipals but it was nice to get a different spin on the same line of thinking.

HIGHLY recommend this book.

Your WW may nor may not change her opinion when the affair falls flat. Your marriage may not recover. We're all taking the same risk, the same journey into unknown when we make the decision - it is a choice - to recover from an affair.

It's exasperating to think about all the steps between you and a fully recovered, happy marriage. I know. This is (i hope) the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. You're reaching into places inside of you that you didn't know existed. You're doing things you never though you could do. Do them not out of shame but out of pride. It takes a big man to do this. A hero. You are savior to your marriage and your kids. No one can do this but you. And you're doing it! Be proud!!

rp - well put.



We are independant of the WS. Our plan does not waver as the WS maims and destroys. BS is the rock. Lighthouse in a black, black storm.

I agree that my plan at this time must consider my future with or without my spouse. It centers on me and my son working to develop the best life we can have together in light of the circumstances.

On the A, there are a lot of subtle factors that lead me to believe that my spouse's affair could easily be termed a mid-life crisis. She is 42. My stepdaughter started seriously dating this time last year as she prepared to go to college. I noticed my wife was taking an unusual interest in the boys that came to our house to date my SD; fawning over them in a way I'd never seen before. My wife also talked about trying to lose weight and several other appearance things. I tried to reassure her that she was as beautiful as ever, but clearly she was concerned about the effects of aging on her looks.

Looking back, I honestly think she needed to know she was still attractive to the opposite sex. My telling her how beautiful she is and making love to her wasn't sufficient to fill the emptiness she felt about that aspect of her life. So she turned to an "objective" opinion; someone who didn't know her and whose opinion couldn't be discounted because they saw her through rose-colored glasses as I did.

That was the start of the affair. So why wasn't that one time enough to satisfy her ego? Why does it continue? The OP is a classic womanizer. He knows that withholding some affection is a powerful tool with women who have poor self-esteem. Thus he controls her by withholding the total love and commitment she is looking for. The insecurity of the affair keeps her wanting more from him, which is something he cannot or will not give.

So the next question is, how will the affair end? It could end when the strain of my wife wanting more collides with the OP's desire to keep things like they are. The OP has exactly what he wants now. He is the one who dictates the time and place they meet, how often, etc. She is the one calling him (about a dozen times to his one).

It's an incredible addiction whose basis lies in issues of self-esteem. And from what I read about self-esteem issues, conquering them can take a long time even with a good psychiatrist.

Ok so now you have the answer in regards to what beast you are working on. Self-esteem.

So what can you do to make her self esteem issues that this ongoing A is feeding into disappear. Right now the A is helping feed her self esteem issues. What can you do to make the ongoing A become a detriment.

Or what can you do to make yourself into the person she is chasing.

Sounds like to me IMHO that maybe going to plan B might be in order. She likes to chase and be wanted you don't want her maybe you will become the object of her chase.

Just a thought. Then you can deal with the self esteem issues with a psychiatirst.

Yes, a Plan B would be in order once I do a better job of Plan A. Right now she would probably be thrilled if I left because of my recent efforts at exposing the affair and contacting the OM.

If I Plan B now she would not be left with a good impression of me.

Also I think she is nowhere near the burnout stage with the OM, so it would probably be a long Plan B. The other problem with Plan B is my son. Custody for the father can be a precarious thing. If I move out it can be said in the divorce that I am in transition and my son would be better off in the home he grew up in with his half siblings. I need to avoid doing anything that can make a case for my wife becoming the custodial parent. In my state, the affair doesn't mean a thing in deciding custody unless I can prove that my wife's behavior has been detrimental to my son.

Well, obviously to anyone with common sense it has, but not to the court.

Hiker,

How old is your son?

I am in the same position regarding plan B with my FWW.

Custody for fathers is always precarious. I am lucky I documented all of her behavior that I knew that could help me and she threw in some things that have really hurt her.

I asked recently if you could plan B and stay in the same house and so far only one yes.

Then keep exposing and keep a documented journal of all of her behavior. One of them might tip the scale in your favor.

I think a MLC plays a part in quite a few A's.

It seems to be a difficult problem to address. IMHO, I don't think a MLC is a self-esteem issue. I may be totally wrong on that.

I look at as more of the reverse. The individuals self esteem is fine, in fact, when they look at themselves, they say I was destined for more than this.

When people are young, their opportunities seem relatively unconstrained. But with each successive year, the cumulative effect of their choices put them on a narrower and narrower path. Their opportunities become very constrained. As they look to the future down that path, they only see it leading to one place or what outcome. And they don't think they will be satisfied with that outcome.

The example I'll give is a standard career. When your young and single and starting a new job, you are trying to advance your career. If the place your working at isn't going to move you up, you say well, I'll just quit and find a new job. But, after a while, you have car payments, kids, a mortgage, responsibility. Quiting and finding a new job no longer looks like an option. You just have to stick it out and keep at the current job. Then one day, they say, look, you are never going to move any hire. This is the job your going to have until you retire or we let you go. Your stuck and when you look to the future, you say to yourself, jeez, if I had just done some things in the past differently, I would not be stuck her.

Feeling like your life is constrained is depressing. When one hits the point that they feel, this is the path I'm on, I know where it ends, and I don't like it, they are left with 2 options. Accept it or do something different. The people who decide to do something different come up with some wacky things. But I think the things they decide to do have a continuem. On one end is the complete start over. This one says, I am going to remove every constraint I can possibly remove. No M, no kids, change jobs, no responsibilites, new friends, new looks, etc. My future path is completely unconstrained. On the other end is the people who say I will adhere to my current constraints, but I am going to try some new things. I think most people end up in the middle.

So as a supportive spouse, it should be simple right. You just say, hey, I know your concerned about the path you are on, what can we do different. Usually doesn't work, because the person going through it has no earthly idea what they want to do. They go with the flow, become very impulsive. They don't know what they want to do, but they know they want to be unconstrained, and then they'll figure out what the want to do. Asking them to decide what they want to do, makes them feel more constrained.

I don't have a solution to this, but I can tell you what I tried in my sitch. I tried to think about how many constraints I could remove. I mean real and artificial. My FWW thought I thought she drank to much. She, therefore felt contstrained. I never really thought that, but I said to her, drink all you want, just please don't drive when you do. My FWW felt like she had to be there to wash my clothes, make meals, clean the house. I started doing it myself. Another constraint removed. My FWW felt like she had to buy gifts for family and friends for birthdays and what not. I started doing it. You get the point.

Now, I'm not saying that I believe the solution is to absolve your S of any responsibilities for all time. That's not going to make you happy. What I'm saying is deomnstrate that the path they are on is not as constrained as they think it is.

The last one I did, was to repeatedly tell me wife that I did not believe NC equals a committment to stay together forever. There are three distinct and isolated choices. NC is first. A committment to work on the M is second. A committment to stay together forever is third. Just because one agrees to the first does not mean they agree to the second or third and so on. I think when a MLC is a factor, this is an important distinction. IMHO, many WS believe that NC equals just accepting the path they are on. NC equals going back to the unhappiness they felt pre-A. It doesn't. I think many BS make the mistake of saying I want NC and you to agree to work on the M. This adds two constraints and makes the WS feel like your saying, I want things to go back to the way they were. The WS is going to say, uh, uh, no way. So instead, ask for NC only. This is only one constraint.

Also, FWIW, I think its too early for a Plan B. I wrote a long post about that once if your interested in my thoughts on it.

HL,

My son is 4 years old. I don't really think I can execute a true Plan B and stay in the same house, but I'm not quite at the stage where I need to worry about that.

I'm scheduled to meet a lawyer and talk about custody issues. Get this, $750 for the consultation! This guy better be good.


rprynne,

I agree completely. I've seen those kinds of mid-life crisises. It's like they've been caged all their life and suddenly want complete freedom from all their responsibilities.

But my wife doesn't fit that category or she would probably want to run away. She doesn't. She just wants the OM and a separation would help make more opportunities available for her to see him without me looking over her shoulder.

In a strange way it's almost like she sees me as her conscience.

We may be saying the same thing in a different way. Like I said, there is a continuem of actions one might take. So while some might want to run away, some aren't. I think wanting the sepration is looking for removal of a constraint.

In any case, perhaps she does not see you as her conscience. Perhaps she sees you as her saftey net

I agree with the safety net.

How long have you been in plan A?

You should not have to pay that much for the consultation. I met with two lawyers just to verify what the first one told me. The initial consultation for one was free the second one cost $50. Just an FYI.

Make sure you have all your ducks in a row. Amount of time spent with the kids. Amount of responsibility you have in the day to day upbrining etc. Also have documented your wifes A. Has she ever missed picking him, missed events, financial impact of her A. The more documentation you have the more they can tell you.

The kids are the ones that I hate seeing affected by this. Good luck on that one.

One of the reasons I have waited is for the kids.

It is hard deciding what to do. You have to look inside yourself for that answer.

I will tell you this you need to be 100% sure you want this. Not for a day, or a week but for a good long time. If you are only 99% sure you want a D then wait. It is up to you.

It isn't that I want a divorce, it's just that I'm afraid she is so firmly addicted to the OM and the fantasy that it could drag on for a year or two. I don't really want to be posting on this forum a year from now telling everyone that I've been in Plan A for 15 months, or Plan B for whatever with no real progress.

I hear you saying that you do not want to divorce, but your fear of the future is affecting your decisions in the present?

Your own fear. Within your control.

There's a reason wise people advise taking one day at a time. It is truly all we have. Make your decisions just for today...

LA

Right now I am trying to straddle a difficult line. On the one hand I am trying to Plan A in order to create a favorable environment for my wife to return to the marriage. On the other I am exposing the affair in order to stress it or kill it like the beast it is.

Now throw in something else in the mix: my wife has gone crazy spending on her credit cards putting us in debt to the tune of $54,000, of which $30,000 has occurred in the last 6 months. Where has the money gone? I don't know because those credit cards are in her name and she has hidden them from me. That amount already exceeds the equity we have in the house. So now I have to protect my finances by opening a separate bank account and paying only those bills that pertain to me or my son. This, with the exposure, has put me in an adversarial position as far as she is concerned.

In short, I am doing Plan A to try to save my marriage, but I must also do those things necessary to protect myself if the marriage fails. So the actions necessary for my protection counteract much of what I am trying to do to save the marriage.

The one day at a time theme is a good one, and operating that way will be helpful.

Why do you think they counteract? Boundaries are healthy...as is truth...your intent may be what is putting these at odds...

You choose your intent.

LA

Well I think they counteract because of their effect on my wife. She sees my separation of the finances as a step I am taking toward divorce. I'm sure she sees it that way because she wants to. By that I mean that everything my wife has done with regard to our marriage has been to try to get me to make the decision to get a divorce so that she can say to herself that she had no control over the outcome and thus absolve herself of any guilt.

Anyway, trying to make the home a safe place and preparing myself for the possibility of divorce are at odds. They are really elements of two opposing plans.

I filed for D from WH last week.

I never wanted a divorce, but WH isn't leaving OW. After all the exposure etc. They have no shame. They are living together. No remorse. WH is parading OW around town, dinners, shopping. Very disrespectful to me and the kids.

I couldn't go on, and had to protect my kids from this. I see no end to him stopping the A.

He has yet to even admit it!

I felt I did what I had to do to protect my kids and finances.

Is it the right thing? Some hours I think it is, some I think it's not.

I think I would be bothered by second guessing myself whatever decision I made.

Right now I still want to try to save the marriage even though that seems nearly impossible.

But I am also not far from making the same decision you did Catgirl.

As I said it was a very hard decison to make.

Never did I ever imagine I would get a divorce. Guess no one does.

Even in the attorney's office I was still hesitant.

But I felt at the time it was the right thing to do. Will I still feel this way 2 months from now? Who knows.

Had WH admitted A, or talked to me or even showed a bit of a tear in his eye for doing what he did, I probably wouldn't have filed.

Not that I really expected he would admit it, but people make mistakes, I realize that, and perhaps things would have been different, if he would have been truthful.

But I don't think he wants a M anymore and I can't control what he thinks or feels.

I do hope one day he realizes that his life with his family wasn't really all that bad after all, but by then it will probably be too late.

"Well I think they counteract because of their effect on my wife."

So you are doing Plan A based on response, and taking reasonable steps financially regardless of response?

The effect of your choices on your WW has nothing to do with your intent when you choose your actions. Making them dependent brings in the contradiction...

You could align your intent in this manner...

Plan A is being authentic and living in truth...searching yourself for behaviors and permissions which you no longer want to allow yourself...love busting, enmeshment, disrespect...or choosing to live reactively. It is about owning what was always yours, instead of putting it on your partners' shoulders...and giving back what wasn't yours...her thoughts, feelings, beliefs and choices...

Separating your finances would be in line with separating what was enmeshed, wouldn't it? Owning your responsibilities and not owning hers...though marital debt is considered shared and tought to prove legally...

That's living in truth...recognizing that debt she created in the last six months...and enforcing your boundary. You cannot make her stop spending...not within your control (though I would check into cancelling all credit cards based on marital debt laws). It is respectful and honest...which is what Plan A is about.

"She sees my separation of the finances as a step I am taking toward divorce." You cannot control what she believes...that's hers. If your intent is pure, then you know your truth.

"I'm sure she sees it that way because she wants to." You are still DJing here.

"By that I mean that everything my wife has done with regard to our marriage has been to try to get me to make the decision to get a divorce so that she can say to herself that she had no control over the outcome and thus absolve herself of any guilt." You don't know this for fact. I asked my WH if he was doing this to make me file for divorce and he said no. I struggled not to DJ...and I didn't...and it saved my marriage. I don't see you struggling not to DJ. Nothing fearful in not knowing why she is choosing what she's choosing, doing what she's doing...you'll only derive self-comfort from DJs if you have worse ones in your head and supplanting them with this one eases you.

"Anyway, trying to make the home a safe place and preparing myself for the possibility of divorce are at odds. They are really elements of two opposing plans."

If you are making yourself safe (which is all you control), and taking precautions against bigger debt, then you are safeguarding the marriage you're choosing to save, aren't you?

You're calling it preparing for the possibility of divorce...what if there was no affair and your wife was spending (betraying you financially) out of control...with no intention for divorce at all, wouldn't you separate your finances to protect the marriage?

Beliefs, perspective, perceptions and intent matter greatly...I am in no way judging your choices...I'm emphasizing you choose all of these...and choosing them wisely would benefit you.

LA

"I do hope one day he realizes that his life with his family wasn't really all that bad after all, but by then it will probably be too late. "

That is precisely what goes through my mind everyday. My wife shows no inclination to stop the affair no matter how much pain she causes the rest of us. No remorse. It's as though nothing is so important as seeing the OP and we should just understand and accept that.

It still astounds me that she can throw everything we had out the window for something that obviously is doomed to fail.

Oh Hiker,

I feel for you, as I'm going through the same thing.

You still have your WW there though. My WH is living with OW in his place.

People tell me it won't last. Just a fling or mid life crisis. She is 17 years younger than him. I believe it will last. He never was one to use someone for a few months and then dump them.

Maybe he is living in fantasyland though, who knows. Exposure didn't get him into reality, that's for sure.

He has turned me and the kid's lives topsy turvy with no remorse or care. I still can't believe this is happening.

How can a person look at themselves in the mirror everyday, knowing the he** they've caused their family?

I pray that we both get some peace soon. It's the kids that are suffering and I feel so bad for them. They never asked for this. WH could care less.

I really have a hard time understanding how a person can apparently make such a radical change. And the addictive quality of the affair is like nothing I've ever seen. She still lies to me all the time or attempts to deceive me on an almost daily basis.

Although she does live in the same house, I almost wish she would go move in with him. At least the affair would probably burn out sooner and I wouldn't have to see her pack up to go to a "trade show" every other weekend knowing full well she is headed for a romp in some motel room somewhere.

I'm sure it is difficult having her live with you.

My WH comes to see the kids for like an hour a week, and even seeing him then, makes me sick to my stomach knowing what he's doing with her.

I'm sure it is very painful in that way, to live with her.

They say having WS and OP live together burns the affair out. I'm not so sure. I think they are getting closer. WH is acting single, no responsibilies, eating out every night with her. Having a ball! That's why I see no end in sight to the A.

I'm trying to do plan B for me. I can't stand to look at him, so I want to avoid him at all costs, but it's hard having to see him at child's sports events.

I guess all we can do is hope that God has a plan for us and he knows what is best.

I'm a faithful person, but haven't gone to church in a few weeks. I'm losing my faith very fast.

Guess God's giving me what he thinks is best and not what I want. That's hard to take.

I believe your WS's affair will burn out faster by living together -- if it is going to burn out at all, which they say is by far the most likely situation.

If I end up getting a divorce, I still have to deal with her because of our son. If we get a divorce, I wish I could just stay away from her for the rest of my life, but that won't be possible because it's likely we will have to share custody.

Then there are all the legal restrictions. I won't be able to move wherever I want without the court's permission and adjustments in visitation.

What an awful mess!

It IS an awful mess. A terribly awful mess. A's are so cruel. So selfish. And what you're putting yourself through to save your M is the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. Give yourself props for what you HAVE done to date. You're not in a perfect Plan A - no one is. You're doiing the best you can against tremendous odds.

Hiker if you want a way out of it, engage LA. She helped me emotionally, mentally extract myself from the muck.

Hiker,

The first step I took when I found out about the A was set one boundary. I wrote a letter stating that I loved her and would be willing to talk in the future about getting past this, however, as long as she continued to see OM, she would have to leave. I wished her a good life, and that I and my sons would stay in the house.

She didn't leave... said she wanted to end it... she didn't right away, still contact up to 2 weeks later when they ended it themselves... (I wasn't aware of this contact until after). This is a boundary you may need to set for yourself. It may end in divorce. I did not want to lose my W... and have made a lot of mistakes since, but I was not going to have her continue in an A while living in our home with our sons.

This may go against other advice, but it was my personal boundary.

The important thing, though, if you choose this way, is that you really mean this boundary. If you are saying it, it cannot be as a manipulation hoping she will stay... and then backing down later. That will be her choice... she stays or goes... but you must keep the boundary. This type of action is from Dr. Dobson's book Tough Love. It is an excellent book that helped me see how I was making things worse prior to DD. It is also an action that strenghthens your own character. Plan A is about becoming a better person...NOT about convincing your W to stay. She may stay with a better person... you.

Shaden

MDC,

Thanks for the support.

Shaden,

I can't make her leave. When she asked me to leave in her harsh way last week I suggested that she be the one to leave, but she refused. We are both on the mortgage/title so legally I can't make her leave. It is further complicated by the fact that her two teenagers, my step children, live here as well.

I think I'm doing a pretty good job of Plan A in that I have tried to engage her in light conversation (she responds tersely and often in an annoyed voice), given her a few gifts, written friendly e-mails telling her that as bad as things are we could still work them out, and done lots of little things around the house to try to help her out.

Dr. Harley wants me to keep up the pressure on the OP, but the OP reports everything I do to my wife and she responds by getting angrier with me which manifests itself in ignoring me, taking my son away from me without telling me what she is doing and disappearing for the whole day, trying to get the step children to ostracize me, etc.

So you see there is a dilemma here. My wife sees me as the enemy, not as someone trying to preserve their marriage by breaking up the affair.

I understand that I cannot control what she thinks, but my actions certainly affect her and the exposing is bring about a lot of negative reactions from her.

Hiker,

You offered the following reasons why you didn’t think it would work out if the FWS came back.

[color:"blue"] 1. You can't live with the vision of your WS having sex with someone else. [/color]
This is about you and only you can fix this.

[color:"blue"]2. You don't think you can ever trust the WS again. [/color]
This is about you with their support. If they are demonstrative of truth then why couldn’t you ever trust them again. If they have done the hard work to figure out the “why’s” of their sick behavior then couldn’t you trust them after a long period of success through trust and verify?

[color:"blue"]3. There were multiple A's and it seems impossible to cure the problem. [/color]
I hear you here but people with problems of the mind change all the time. Recovered addicts and improved cases of mental disorders abound in life; it’s just not easy for them and requires dedication, support, and tough love to work through.

4. [color:"blue"] Your friends and family can never accept the WS after what has happened. [/color]
You think? Well, everyone in my family realizes that people make mistakes. If it’s corrected behavior then it was a mistake. If it’s something that continues on forever it’s what they are. There’s a difference to me and them. Besides they are formulating their opinions, in large part, on what you tell them and how you feel.

All the reasons that you listed for the WS not coming back don’t matter do they? If they aren’t back they aren’t back and there is nothing to work on.

The only thing you can do at that point is work on yourself and maybe do a plan A at the beginning if they will allow you to have that interaction.

Otherwise it’s plan B for a while then lifetime plan B which is really plan D.

The key here for you is YOU. You are the only thing that you can control so my advice to you is to work on that.

Be the H that you would want to have if you were a W. Be the partner that is good for ANYBODY. Be someone that you are proud of and always continue to work on yourself.

If it doesn’t work out with the one that you are with you only have you in the end. Take this time to work on yourself so that at the end of the day weather they come back or not you know that you have value and learned from all of this.

Best regards,
Plank.

Have you told your two step children?

Exposed to everyone under the sun including anyone you can dig up as a contact for OM?

Well, Plank, that's a touchy situation. Are they old enough to understand and handle it? Yes (17 and 19). But there are a lot of family members who would consider such an action on my part as being very inappropriate. Some would say, "Are you trying to turn the kids against their mother?"

It would definitely be a serious LB and lose me a lot of respect from those who are currently supporting me.

On the other hand, they will certainly hear the truth eventually because enough people have been told that it is inevitable.

With regard to my "reasons" post, I should have written "reasons why it MIGHT not work . . .etc."

I wasn't stating views on my personal situation, just trying to establish why the marriage might not survive the affair even if the WS comes back. In the reasons for the WS, the idea is that they may want to come back but see these things as insurmountable obstacles to reconciliation.

The reasons become a self fullfilling prophecy if either person believes them to be true.

I realize my FWW has never accepted the fact that I would forgive her.
She has said you will never forgive me so we might as well get a D.
She has not shown remorse. How do I forgive? Now I haven't forgiven because she hasn't shown remorse. She hasn't shown remorse because I will never forgive her.

Now the prophecy has been fullfilled. I never forgave her but the real question is why.

If the FWS or the BS knows this to be true. It is true because your perception is your reality.

Hiker,

I have no idea what you are thinking by not telling your children the truth about what is happening in their own lives. By being silence with respect to your WW’s A and the real reasons for the trouble in your M, you become an accomplice with your WW in deceiving your children about the true state of things. If you don’t mind lying for WW or don’t care about misleading your children by omission, then continue doing what you are doing.

Your children are way old enough to face this truth. Children are not stupid, and when they figure it out, they will be disappointed that you misled them, or that you did not respect them enough to tell them what is really going on. This is not just about you and WW. This is about them too. It is their lives too that are involved. I believe it is very cruel of you to keep them in the dark.

Second, telling your children will help WW come out of her fantasy sooner. The Harleys recommend it, as do most posters here who’ve had experience with this. Your WW will have to explain to the children why she prefers her fantasy over the stability of the family. It will not be fun. And it is not your job to protect your WW from the consequences of her adultery. You become an enabler when you do so. There is nothing wrong with telling your children the truth.

Lastly, those friends and family members who may not approve of you telling your children the TRUTH, are not marriage experts, nor have they thought about the moral implications of misleading by omission your own grown children.

I think your are making a big mistake by not telling your children the TRUTH, both from an practical point of view, i.e., as a way to help your M and from a moral point of view.

You need to MAN UP and do the right thing here.

God Bless.

This is an interesting point. I was "raked over the coals" in depositions for telling my children that the reason I was D their father was because I believed, based on evidence and TWO confessions that he was having an affair. I also told them when he decided to deny the affair that while he had admitted to me there was an affair he now was saying he just made that up because he thought it was what I wanted to hear. The lawyer for H said this made me an unfit mother, my children that I had this conversation with are 18, 16, and 14. I have not told the 5 year old anything accept that because Mom and Dad are having some very difficult problems we would be living apart. I felt honesty with the older kids was not only best but my only choice. If I am leaving a 20 year marriage there better be a reason that is beyond just I am unhappy. I wouldn't want my kids to think I would walk away even from a difficult marriage without just cause. I was in an abusive realtionship and worked very hard to save our marriage. The affair did me in. i felt my kids deserved to know. When I told them this they all said that they too had thought he was having an affair. They knew timing etc. without me saying a word. They are very perceptive. Now that we are months into this, their dad is saying he didn't have the affair that he just told me these things, and explained away all the questions, they at times say they believe him and I just have decided to tell them that it is important for them to build their relationship with him and that I have explained to them why I am divorcing him. I have tried to help them understand that they just need to focus on healing their realtionship with him and I will work on me. Because of the abuse, they know we are doing the right thing. It is still hard for them to accept what he has done. I understand because it is hard for me as well. I do know that in the long run they will have a peace about it as they already do to a certain dgree. I am still very much in grief mode myself. Sorry to ramble.

Hiker,


Since when is telling the truth a LB? I don't think that's a DJ, AO, IB, or SD.

If your family and WW can't stomach the real truth then they shouldn't live the life that offends them.

The kids deserve to understand that their mother's lunatic behavior is attributed to something that is not about them. I'm worried that what ever ugliness befalls them from all of this, they will carry it around with them thinking it could be thier fault. Not good for them.

EMN.

hiker

you CAN go back and change the title of this thread:)

Post deleted by Hiker45

Honestly Eav...sometimes it just doesn't work.

YOU CAN go back and begin living your life NOW.

not all marriages survive.

we hope most do.

not all will.

and that is reality when the evil that is adultery is poisoning famlies in this country,

but not all WS come back...and NOT ALL BS WANT THEIR WS BACK...if they are not repentant and not changing their adulterous situations. I would under no conditions accept a WS back without a 110 PERCENT COMMITTMENT TO MARRIAGE AND NC ENTHUSIASTICALLY FOR LIFE! but then, I lived this and lived thru this all the way...and see how it is on the other side...when a WS is NEVER REPENTANT...I reclaimed my life and while I have to deal with a wayward father, I do not have a WS anymore. Never in my lifetime will I ever be with somebody I have to look behind my back with. Life is too short.

Maybe she will pull her bottom lip over the top of her head..sure beats her dragging it around on the floor.

Pout pout pout.

Aren't you mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

justpeachy,

How long did you try to work things out before you realized it was time to hang it up?

Hiker, you will know my friend when your heart has had enough...you'll know.

otherwise, fight the good fight as your kids deserve it 100 percent...120 percent!

and different people grieve differently (eav are you listening?)...that is a FACT. I am NOT GRIEVING over the loss of my ws. I grieve over the loss of an intact famly...that's it now. he's destroyed any memories that I had of him. he did it well. i know 100 percent from my church family back home that I had reason and motive to divorce him. he never repented and really tried only a feeble try.

so many times we want to as BS BLAME OURSELVES for the affair or are eager to try to find some mental deficiency in our WS...FIND A MENTAL DEFICIENCY...we find it far too painful to believe they are just IMMORAL. NOT FIXABLE, JUST IMMORAL

it scares the hades outta people for me to say that...we want a quick fix for a problem. that is NOT THE CASE USUALLY. not at all.

while we want to repair marriages and families, I would be a total liar if I told you that I didn't feel better after I divorced.

Sure, finances are 100 percent tighter. but my self esteem is 100 percent higher too. and my ds is closer to me than ever before, despite having to have some time with his WS father. for about 3 years, my xh was damaging mentally to me...and to ds imho...ds hates the ow/wife..and hates the fact his dad did all he did...AND I NEVER SAID A WORD TO DS..and he was never around when I did either..my ds learned to dislike his dad from when his daddy lied to him about "why mommy fell down the stairs"...my ds saw me fall down the stairs at the hand of my now xh...I never knew he remembered it as he was so young. He even told my sis and bro in law the whole story...when he was four. I myself never wanted to believe my son saw him push me down a spiral staircase and crash. and was black and blue for days on end. I left immediately after that happened and took my child with me.

is it ever enough to really say here that I AM HAPPY AND OK WITH MY DIVORCE? IT IS ALMOST BLASPHEMY TO DO THAT...but i am here and will attest to it. was better than the alternative with an unrepentant and hedonistic spouse.

I've said it a dozen or more times on this forum. I can't understand how someone just tosses their family and a thousand great memories away for an unknown quantity. Yes, I know it's an addictive, fantasy relationship. But knowing that doesn't really help me understand it any better.

Look at all the people on this forum. Are we anachronisms who hold onto the idea of responsibility and commitment in a society that worships hedonism?

I held on for almost two years...from the first d day until I realized this man ain't gonna change...he got progressively WORSE...and his worse was reaaaaaallly bad ok?

he went from being just a ws...then he progressed to emotional cruelty...then the lies became so bad...I mean this guy is a master salesman...he could make you believe anything he told you...and he lied his [censored] off.

the end for me came after his emotional abuse and unrepentant adultery (had a few false times when he'd pretend to go NC...but it was all false..no real NC)actually morphed into physical cruelty...that very day when a specific event happened, I packed up all I could get into my suv, and packed up myself and ds and pets and left. that was a line I hoped and believed he'd never cross.

this was NOT the man I knew before the A began...the man I used to know? the man BEFORE THE FALL? we used to go walking together...he was so protective of me that he'd walk deliberately on the outside closest to the street so that *(in his words) "if a car was going to hit us, it would only hit him"...he was at one time the most respectful and kind and decent man I knew.

now? I dont know him at all. he is a total stranger to me..an alien behaving counter to ALL I HAD COME TO KNOW AND BELIEVE about him.

I think that definitely if there is unchecked/continued/incessant emotiuonal abuse and 100 percent after any and all physical abuse that is a deal breaker for a BS to deal with.

what alot of people here don't get is that affairs are forms of cruelty and emotional abuse. just not as some people today would define it.

each person has their own barometer...their own line to cross...and I think that when either the time limit a person sets in dealing with the adultery factor is not resolved/continues, or if they like my xh get progressively worse, that the BS will end up leaving the marriage. sadly.

I don't want people to get divorced...but then again, I see serial adulterers do this year in...false recovery after recovery and lose thier sense of self...and self worth...thankfully many WS here ARE NOT LIKE my xh...they do come around and eventually wake up from this horrid nightmare THEY THEMSELVES CREATED...

each person is different. each story unique. no textbook approach as NOBODY IS ONE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hiker - if you're looking for answers, and I was, read "Not Just Friends" by Shirly Glass. Not sure I've recommended it to you. Very scientific, analytical. And helpful.

It IS unfathomable the way that WSs trade gold for manure, treasure for trash. I too am hypersensitive to the ease at which marriages are entered into and cast off.

Quick story - one of the first people I talked to was a long-time friend that lives out on the east coast. We talk probably once a year. This is the kind of person that one can pick up after a year's time like the last conversation happened yesterday. Anyway, once I told my story, this person encouraged me to leave WW. Right away. "She's bad. Flawed. Get a new one. You're young." This was basically the message (repeated by others I've confided in).

I had not yet found MB but I was furious! WHY would I do that without trying! I'm not going to do the same thing that my W did when things got bad - run away - that's what I'm mad at HER about!! And give up my kids? Just like that??!!

I went on a rant about how LAZY people are when it comes to marriage and commitment. And that so few seem to respect the commitments they make to their families, god and spouse to love, honor, cherish. In the end the call was well timed because it really got me to dig into my commitment to rescue the M.

So yes. I believe we might be in the minority. How does that make you feel?

I call you out, MDC, on your belief of laziness causing this ditch and run lifestyle...

It is the fear. Fear keeps replacement as a choice in our beliefs...flawed, wrong, incompatible...an illfit. I believe it is this fear belief inside of us, from the era of broken and lost toys, which sabotage our marriages and feeds A's.

If we were taught truth--that people are irreplaceable...then we would not hold off in our minds, "I don't have to put up with this--it isn't me--I can get someone better," then our marriages would be held to reality.

MB brings that reality home...we can be in love with anyone meeting our needs...not draining our love banks...and they can be in love with us...why not the ones we vowed to? Why not stop judgment, insert discernment, inject respect...and thrive?

Takes not living from fear, but from choosing to love.

Not lazy, I believe...fearful. Reduce one, increase the other. By choice.

LA

I guess there are many reasons why marriage might not work after an affair. I think resentment and entitlement are two of the biggies.

Fear. That is big one.

I think many FWS think that if they return to the marriage that the A will always be there, that it will be brought up over and over again, you know, used as the ultimate weapon to win arguments. I guess some FWS just think that they are setting themselves up for a lifetime of punishment for a poor decision they have acknowledged, but cannot erase. I know that in my M, 4+ years past DD, the A is still dusted off, shined up, and used out of context whenever the moods strikes. It has happened so often it is losing its impact though.

I think that most FWS know that they damaged their marriage by having an affair. I think many, me included sometimes, wonder if recovery is really possible or just another Sisyphean task. Sometimes you just don’t want to push the rock anymore.

I’ve spoken for the FWS because that is my experience in this. I don’t know what motivates the FBS to reconcile. I never expected my FBS to want to stay married. She didn’t really give it much attention before my A and it didn’t appear that she was all that thrilled with being Mrs. Numb then (probably a DJ, but it is really what I think about the situation). I don’t really know why she did and she had to do a lot of early heavy lifting because I just wasn’t that interested then. I even kind of savored the idea of getting out, having my own place and being free of the conflict and bickering.

I think kids were the major factor in my wife’s decision to stay and try to work things out. Some others were probably: loss of income that would have resulted (#1 EN of my W by far), not wising to be a divorcee . . . she sees it a failure, loss of domestic support I provide (grocery shopping, cook, general handyman and grunt), not wanting to hear grief from her mom (this was a biggie too). I would like to say that it was endearing love for me that drove this, but somehow in my heart of hearts, I just know that isn’t the case. I also know that there is seething anger buried there, it is usually capped, but it is occasionally vented. And that is OK. It is welcome to be important enough to hate a little. It makes a nice change from our often mutual indifference.


I don’t know where this all came from today.

I'd like to add the total inability of either of the spouses to practice radical honesty to that list.

There was an interesting long-term study I read recently about marriage and divorce. I will have to look up the citation and post it here later, but the gist of it was this:

Several hundred couples were interviewed over a period of years. Some were in unhappy marriages and were divorced. Some were in unhappy marriages but did not divorce. It turns out that a majority of those who divorced were not happy five years later and were second guessing the divorce. Five years later, most of the couples who had not divorced but who had unhappy marriages were much happier than when interviewed previously.

Don't ask me how they determined anybody's level of happiness. I don't know. But I will find the study and post a link to it soon.

I read that article, too, Hiker...can't remember where.

MIM -

Not practicing radical honesty...fear of being honest...what do you think?

LA

Perhaps. I think some people are just incapable of doing it, because they've not had sufficient practice; they don't know HOW to be "radically honest".

For me Radical Honesty is the most important principle. I will not live a life where I have to worry about my chosen partner not being honest with me.

I will say that it goes both ways. I need to be honest as well. If I am not radically honest I should not expect it.

I will not allow my FWW tell me what she thinks is important and what is not important about her actions. You tell me your actions and I will decide what is important to me. I have realized that my FWW had a different idea of what is important depending which one of us is in the situation.

So I do not need a importance filter in my FWW. I need the truthe unfiltered. I will then decide the importance. If you keep telling me you didn't think something was important and I did it might lead me to believe you are not the person for me.

Funny thing about these unimportant details that they left out. They would think they were important if you did it to them. Which means they can't even practice radically honest about the way they would feel in your shoes.

You are correct, MIM. My W and I have talked about sharing the truth about our feelings... and agreed this was important. We didn't call it radical honesty as my W still won't read from MB... but it's the same principle.

I don't believe I am afraid of radical honesty anymore, but I had so many years of conflict avoidance... we both did... that my reaction is still a habit to withdraw or avoid. I have to consciously think about it and share. I have to learn to be radically honest. I'm not afraid of the outcome, it just still feels uncomfortable as a new behavior.

Shaden