Hiker - I think you are on the right path. I don't think its so much that your left with only one option, I think its more of a realization that only one option ever existed. Be the best you can be, make the right decisions for your happiness, and the things around you will work out.

It sounds as if you've done a lot of thinking about what caused the A. What I would encourage is to think about what made your S unhappy. This is really the root cause. As Shaden listed, there are many things that can cause people to be unhappy. Meeting EN's may not have been the problem, it could be something else.

The thing is, usually once the A starts, the WS is either too confused, or too much running on a day to day type of approach to really tell you what made them unhappy. If that makes any sense.

So, you have to do that work yourself. Figure out what it is. Just keep reading, researching, and eventually it will become clear to you. You can pick it up in things she says and actions she takes.

When you think about convincing your WS about working on the M. Think of it this way, she was unhappy, she decided to experiment to see if something else can make her happy. She found something that appears to make her happy. She was/is going to hold onto that. Now post d-day, she is probably not happy again. Its time for her to experiment again. What will she choose? The M or the A. Well in her view, right now, she has tried both the A and the M and the A makes her happy. So you have to change the game, so to speak.

Finally, on the question of patience. The how long should you wait. What would you do right now, if the you knew her answer was no? Think about that, and think about it in the bigger picture of time. What are you losing by giving this some time? Really? Are you in a big hurry to start another R? Are you passing up anything?

I think this way of thinking can be very empowering. You aren't waiting around to see if she wants to save the M, your motivation is not derived via her desire. Its your choice and you are going to do what you think is best for you. Right now you think what is best is to save your M. Tommorrow, you may not think that. Whether she wants to come along for the ride or not, does not change your action plan.

Hiker - I'm a big fan of Shirly Glass' "Not Just Friends". Explains how various personalities, environments, upbringings, etc. spawn affairs. I'm a big believer in the MB pricipals but it was nice to get a different spin on the same line of thinking.

HIGHLY recommend this book.

Your WW may nor may not change her opinion when the affair falls flat. Your marriage may not recover. We're all taking the same risk, the same journey into unknown when we make the decision - it is a choice - to recover from an affair.

It's exasperating to think about all the steps between you and a fully recovered, happy marriage. I know. This is (i hope) the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. You're reaching into places inside of you that you didn't know existed. You're doing things you never though you could do. Do them not out of shame but out of pride. It takes a big man to do this. A hero. You are savior to your marriage and your kids. No one can do this but you. And you're doing it! Be proud!!

rp - well put.



We are independant of the WS. Our plan does not waver as the WS maims and destroys. BS is the rock. Lighthouse in a black, black storm.

I agree that my plan at this time must consider my future with or without my spouse. It centers on me and my son working to develop the best life we can have together in light of the circumstances.

On the A, there are a lot of subtle factors that lead me to believe that my spouse's affair could easily be termed a mid-life crisis. She is 42. My stepdaughter started seriously dating this time last year as she prepared to go to college. I noticed my wife was taking an unusual interest in the boys that came to our house to date my SD; fawning over them in a way I'd never seen before. My wife also talked about trying to lose weight and several other appearance things. I tried to reassure her that she was as beautiful as ever, but clearly she was concerned about the effects of aging on her looks.

Looking back, I honestly think she needed to know she was still attractive to the opposite sex. My telling her how beautiful she is and making love to her wasn't sufficient to fill the emptiness she felt about that aspect of her life. So she turned to an "objective" opinion; someone who didn't know her and whose opinion couldn't be discounted because they saw her through rose-colored glasses as I did.

That was the start of the affair. So why wasn't that one time enough to satisfy her ego? Why does it continue? The OP is a classic womanizer. He knows that withholding some affection is a powerful tool with women who have poor self-esteem. Thus he controls her by withholding the total love and commitment she is looking for. The insecurity of the affair keeps her wanting more from him, which is something he cannot or will not give.

So the next question is, how will the affair end? It could end when the strain of my wife wanting more collides with the OP's desire to keep things like they are. The OP has exactly what he wants now. He is the one who dictates the time and place they meet, how often, etc. She is the one calling him (about a dozen times to his one).

It's an incredible addiction whose basis lies in issues of self-esteem. And from what I read about self-esteem issues, conquering them can take a long time even with a good psychiatrist.

Ok so now you have the answer in regards to what beast you are working on. Self-esteem.

So what can you do to make her self esteem issues that this ongoing A is feeding into disappear. Right now the A is helping feed her self esteem issues. What can you do to make the ongoing A become a detriment.

Or what can you do to make yourself into the person she is chasing.

Sounds like to me IMHO that maybe going to plan B might be in order. She likes to chase and be wanted you don't want her maybe you will become the object of her chase.

Just a thought. Then you can deal with the self esteem issues with a psychiatirst.

Yes, a Plan B would be in order once I do a better job of Plan A. Right now she would probably be thrilled if I left because of my recent efforts at exposing the affair and contacting the OM.

If I Plan B now she would not be left with a good impression of me.

Also I think she is nowhere near the burnout stage with the OM, so it would probably be a long Plan B. The other problem with Plan B is my son. Custody for the father can be a precarious thing. If I move out it can be said in the divorce that I am in transition and my son would be better off in the home he grew up in with his half siblings. I need to avoid doing anything that can make a case for my wife becoming the custodial parent. In my state, the affair doesn't mean a thing in deciding custody unless I can prove that my wife's behavior has been detrimental to my son.

Well, obviously to anyone with common sense it has, but not to the court.

Hiker,

How old is your son?

I am in the same position regarding plan B with my FWW.

Custody for fathers is always precarious. I am lucky I documented all of her behavior that I knew that could help me and she threw in some things that have really hurt her.

I asked recently if you could plan B and stay in the same house and so far only one yes.

Then keep exposing and keep a documented journal of all of her behavior. One of them might tip the scale in your favor.

I think a MLC plays a part in quite a few A's.

It seems to be a difficult problem to address. IMHO, I don't think a MLC is a self-esteem issue. I may be totally wrong on that.

I look at as more of the reverse. The individuals self esteem is fine, in fact, when they look at themselves, they say I was destined for more than this.

When people are young, their opportunities seem relatively unconstrained. But with each successive year, the cumulative effect of their choices put them on a narrower and narrower path. Their opportunities become very constrained. As they look to the future down that path, they only see it leading to one place or what outcome. And they don't think they will be satisfied with that outcome.

The example I'll give is a standard career. When your young and single and starting a new job, you are trying to advance your career. If the place your working at isn't going to move you up, you say well, I'll just quit and find a new job. But, after a while, you have car payments, kids, a mortgage, responsibility. Quiting and finding a new job no longer looks like an option. You just have to stick it out and keep at the current job. Then one day, they say, look, you are never going to move any hire. This is the job your going to have until you retire or we let you go. Your stuck and when you look to the future, you say to yourself, jeez, if I had just done some things in the past differently, I would not be stuck her.

Feeling like your life is constrained is depressing. When one hits the point that they feel, this is the path I'm on, I know where it ends, and I don't like it, they are left with 2 options. Accept it or do something different. The people who decide to do something different come up with some wacky things. But I think the things they decide to do have a continuem. On one end is the complete start over. This one says, I am going to remove every constraint I can possibly remove. No M, no kids, change jobs, no responsibilites, new friends, new looks, etc. My future path is completely unconstrained. On the other end is the people who say I will adhere to my current constraints, but I am going to try some new things. I think most people end up in the middle.

So as a supportive spouse, it should be simple right. You just say, hey, I know your concerned about the path you are on, what can we do different. Usually doesn't work, because the person going through it has no earthly idea what they want to do. They go with the flow, become very impulsive. They don't know what they want to do, but they know they want to be unconstrained, and then they'll figure out what the want to do. Asking them to decide what they want to do, makes them feel more constrained.

I don't have a solution to this, but I can tell you what I tried in my sitch. I tried to think about how many constraints I could remove. I mean real and artificial. My FWW thought I thought she drank to much. She, therefore felt contstrained. I never really thought that, but I said to her, drink all you want, just please don't drive when you do. My FWW felt like she had to be there to wash my clothes, make meals, clean the house. I started doing it myself. Another constraint removed. My FWW felt like she had to buy gifts for family and friends for birthdays and what not. I started doing it. You get the point.

Now, I'm not saying that I believe the solution is to absolve your S of any responsibilities for all time. That's not going to make you happy. What I'm saying is deomnstrate that the path they are on is not as constrained as they think it is.

The last one I did, was to repeatedly tell me wife that I did not believe NC equals a committment to stay together forever. There are three distinct and isolated choices. NC is first. A committment to work on the M is second. A committment to stay together forever is third. Just because one agrees to the first does not mean they agree to the second or third and so on. I think when a MLC is a factor, this is an important distinction. IMHO, many WS believe that NC equals just accepting the path they are on. NC equals going back to the unhappiness they felt pre-A. It doesn't. I think many BS make the mistake of saying I want NC and you to agree to work on the M. This adds two constraints and makes the WS feel like your saying, I want things to go back to the way they were. The WS is going to say, uh, uh, no way. So instead, ask for NC only. This is only one constraint.

Also, FWIW, I think its too early for a Plan B. I wrote a long post about that once if your interested in my thoughts on it.

HL,

My son is 4 years old. I don't really think I can execute a true Plan B and stay in the same house, but I'm not quite at the stage where I need to worry about that.

I'm scheduled to meet a lawyer and talk about custody issues. Get this, $750 for the consultation! This guy better be good.


rprynne,

I agree completely. I've seen those kinds of mid-life crisises. It's like they've been caged all their life and suddenly want complete freedom from all their responsibilities.

But my wife doesn't fit that category or she would probably want to run away. She doesn't. She just wants the OM and a separation would help make more opportunities available for her to see him without me looking over her shoulder.

In a strange way it's almost like she sees me as her conscience.

We may be saying the same thing in a different way. Like I said, there is a continuem of actions one might take. So while some might want to run away, some aren't. I think wanting the sepration is looking for removal of a constraint.

In any case, perhaps she does not see you as her conscience. Perhaps she sees you as her saftey net

I agree with the safety net.

How long have you been in plan A?

You should not have to pay that much for the consultation. I met with two lawyers just to verify what the first one told me. The initial consultation for one was free the second one cost $50. Just an FYI.

Make sure you have all your ducks in a row. Amount of time spent with the kids. Amount of responsibility you have in the day to day upbrining etc. Also have documented your wifes A. Has she ever missed picking him, missed events, financial impact of her A. The more documentation you have the more they can tell you.

The kids are the ones that I hate seeing affected by this. Good luck on that one.

One of the reasons I have waited is for the kids.

It is hard deciding what to do. You have to look inside yourself for that answer.

I will tell you this you need to be 100% sure you want this. Not for a day, or a week but for a good long time. If you are only 99% sure you want a D then wait. It is up to you.

It isn't that I want a divorce, it's just that I'm afraid she is so firmly addicted to the OM and the fantasy that it could drag on for a year or two. I don't really want to be posting on this forum a year from now telling everyone that I've been in Plan A for 15 months, or Plan B for whatever with no real progress.

I hear you saying that you do not want to divorce, but your fear of the future is affecting your decisions in the present?

Your own fear. Within your control.

There's a reason wise people advise taking one day at a time. It is truly all we have. Make your decisions just for today...

LA

Right now I am trying to straddle a difficult line. On the one hand I am trying to Plan A in order to create a favorable environment for my wife to return to the marriage. On the other I am exposing the affair in order to stress it or kill it like the beast it is.

Now throw in something else in the mix: my wife has gone crazy spending on her credit cards putting us in debt to the tune of $54,000, of which $30,000 has occurred in the last 6 months. Where has the money gone? I don't know because those credit cards are in her name and she has hidden them from me. That amount already exceeds the equity we have in the house. So now I have to protect my finances by opening a separate bank account and paying only those bills that pertain to me or my son. This, with the exposure, has put me in an adversarial position as far as she is concerned.

In short, I am doing Plan A to try to save my marriage, but I must also do those things necessary to protect myself if the marriage fails. So the actions necessary for my protection counteract much of what I am trying to do to save the marriage.

The one day at a time theme is a good one, and operating that way will be helpful.

Why do you think they counteract? Boundaries are healthy...as is truth...your intent may be what is putting these at odds...

You choose your intent.

LA

Well I think they counteract because of their effect on my wife. She sees my separation of the finances as a step I am taking toward divorce. I'm sure she sees it that way because she wants to. By that I mean that everything my wife has done with regard to our marriage has been to try to get me to make the decision to get a divorce so that she can say to herself that she had no control over the outcome and thus absolve herself of any guilt.

Anyway, trying to make the home a safe place and preparing myself for the possibility of divorce are at odds. They are really elements of two opposing plans.

I filed for D from WH last week.

I never wanted a divorce, but WH isn't leaving OW. After all the exposure etc. They have no shame. They are living together. No remorse. WH is parading OW around town, dinners, shopping. Very disrespectful to me and the kids.

I couldn't go on, and had to protect my kids from this. I see no end to him stopping the A.

He has yet to even admit it!

I felt I did what I had to do to protect my kids and finances.

Is it the right thing? Some hours I think it is, some I think it's not.

I think I would be bothered by second guessing myself whatever decision I made.

Right now I still want to try to save the marriage even though that seems nearly impossible.

But I am also not far from making the same decision you did Catgirl.

As I said it was a very hard decison to make.

Never did I ever imagine I would get a divorce. Guess no one does.

Even in the attorney's office I was still hesitant.

But I felt at the time it was the right thing to do. Will I still feel this way 2 months from now? Who knows.

Had WH admitted A, or talked to me or even showed a bit of a tear in his eye for doing what he did, I probably wouldn't have filed.

Not that I really expected he would admit it, but people make mistakes, I realize that, and perhaps things would have been different, if he would have been truthful.

But I don't think he wants a M anymore and I can't control what he thinks or feels.

I do hope one day he realizes that his life with his family wasn't really all that bad after all, but by then it will probably be too late.