"Well I think they counteract because of their effect on my wife."

So you are doing Plan A based on response, and taking reasonable steps financially regardless of response?

The effect of your choices on your WW has nothing to do with your intent when you choose your actions. Making them dependent brings in the contradiction...

You could align your intent in this manner...

Plan A is being authentic and living in truth...searching yourself for behaviors and permissions which you no longer want to allow yourself...love busting, enmeshment, disrespect...or choosing to live reactively. It is about owning what was always yours, instead of putting it on your partners' shoulders...and giving back what wasn't yours...her thoughts, feelings, beliefs and choices...

Separating your finances would be in line with separating what was enmeshed, wouldn't it? Owning your responsibilities and not owning hers...though marital debt is considered shared and tought to prove legally...

That's living in truth...recognizing that debt she created in the last six months...and enforcing your boundary. You cannot make her stop spending...not within your control (though I would check into cancelling all credit cards based on marital debt laws). It is respectful and honest...which is what Plan A is about.

"She sees my separation of the finances as a step I am taking toward divorce." You cannot control what she believes...that's hers. If your intent is pure, then you know your truth.

"I'm sure she sees it that way because she wants to." You are still DJing here.

"By that I mean that everything my wife has done with regard to our marriage has been to try to get me to make the decision to get a divorce so that she can say to herself that she had no control over the outcome and thus absolve herself of any guilt." You don't know this for fact. I asked my WH if he was doing this to make me file for divorce and he said no. I struggled not to DJ...and I didn't...and it saved my marriage. I don't see you struggling not to DJ. Nothing fearful in not knowing why she is choosing what she's choosing, doing what she's doing...you'll only derive self-comfort from DJs if you have worse ones in your head and supplanting them with this one eases you.

"Anyway, trying to make the home a safe place and preparing myself for the possibility of divorce are at odds. They are really elements of two opposing plans."

If you are making yourself safe (which is all you control), and taking precautions against bigger debt, then you are safeguarding the marriage you're choosing to save, aren't you?

You're calling it preparing for the possibility of divorce...what if there was no affair and your wife was spending (betraying you financially) out of control...with no intention for divorce at all, wouldn't you separate your finances to protect the marriage?

Beliefs, perspective, perceptions and intent matter greatly...I am in no way judging your choices...I'm emphasizing you choose all of these...and choosing them wisely would benefit you.

LA

"I do hope one day he realizes that his life with his family wasn't really all that bad after all, but by then it will probably be too late. "

That is precisely what goes through my mind everyday. My wife shows no inclination to stop the affair no matter how much pain she causes the rest of us. No remorse. It's as though nothing is so important as seeing the OP and we should just understand and accept that.

It still astounds me that she can throw everything we had out the window for something that obviously is doomed to fail.

Oh Hiker,

I feel for you, as I'm going through the same thing.

You still have your WW there though. My WH is living with OW in his place.

People tell me it won't last. Just a fling or mid life crisis. She is 17 years younger than him. I believe it will last. He never was one to use someone for a few months and then dump them.

Maybe he is living in fantasyland though, who knows. Exposure didn't get him into reality, that's for sure.

He has turned me and the kid's lives topsy turvy with no remorse or care. I still can't believe this is happening.

How can a person look at themselves in the mirror everyday, knowing the he** they've caused their family?

I pray that we both get some peace soon. It's the kids that are suffering and I feel so bad for them. They never asked for this. WH could care less.

I really have a hard time understanding how a person can apparently make such a radical change. And the addictive quality of the affair is like nothing I've ever seen. She still lies to me all the time or attempts to deceive me on an almost daily basis.

Although she does live in the same house, I almost wish she would go move in with him. At least the affair would probably burn out sooner and I wouldn't have to see her pack up to go to a "trade show" every other weekend knowing full well she is headed for a romp in some motel room somewhere.

I'm sure it is difficult having her live with you.

My WH comes to see the kids for like an hour a week, and even seeing him then, makes me sick to my stomach knowing what he's doing with her.

I'm sure it is very painful in that way, to live with her.

They say having WS and OP live together burns the affair out. I'm not so sure. I think they are getting closer. WH is acting single, no responsibilies, eating out every night with her. Having a ball! That's why I see no end in sight to the A.

I'm trying to do plan B for me. I can't stand to look at him, so I want to avoid him at all costs, but it's hard having to see him at child's sports events.

I guess all we can do is hope that God has a plan for us and he knows what is best.

I'm a faithful person, but haven't gone to church in a few weeks. I'm losing my faith very fast.

Guess God's giving me what he thinks is best and not what I want. That's hard to take.

I believe your WS's affair will burn out faster by living together -- if it is going to burn out at all, which they say is by far the most likely situation.

If I end up getting a divorce, I still have to deal with her because of our son. If we get a divorce, I wish I could just stay away from her for the rest of my life, but that won't be possible because it's likely we will have to share custody.

Then there are all the legal restrictions. I won't be able to move wherever I want without the court's permission and adjustments in visitation.

What an awful mess!

It IS an awful mess. A terribly awful mess. A's are so cruel. So selfish. And what you're putting yourself through to save your M is the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. Give yourself props for what you HAVE done to date. You're not in a perfect Plan A - no one is. You're doiing the best you can against tremendous odds.

Hiker if you want a way out of it, engage LA. She helped me emotionally, mentally extract myself from the muck.

Hiker,

The first step I took when I found out about the A was set one boundary. I wrote a letter stating that I loved her and would be willing to talk in the future about getting past this, however, as long as she continued to see OM, she would have to leave. I wished her a good life, and that I and my sons would stay in the house.

She didn't leave... said she wanted to end it... she didn't right away, still contact up to 2 weeks later when they ended it themselves... (I wasn't aware of this contact until after). This is a boundary you may need to set for yourself. It may end in divorce. I did not want to lose my W... and have made a lot of mistakes since, but I was not going to have her continue in an A while living in our home with our sons.

This may go against other advice, but it was my personal boundary.

The important thing, though, if you choose this way, is that you really mean this boundary. If you are saying it, it cannot be as a manipulation hoping she will stay... and then backing down later. That will be her choice... she stays or goes... but you must keep the boundary. This type of action is from Dr. Dobson's book Tough Love. It is an excellent book that helped me see how I was making things worse prior to DD. It is also an action that strenghthens your own character. Plan A is about becoming a better person...NOT about convincing your W to stay. She may stay with a better person... you.

Shaden

MDC,

Thanks for the support.

Shaden,

I can't make her leave. When she asked me to leave in her harsh way last week I suggested that she be the one to leave, but she refused. We are both on the mortgage/title so legally I can't make her leave. It is further complicated by the fact that her two teenagers, my step children, live here as well.

I think I'm doing a pretty good job of Plan A in that I have tried to engage her in light conversation (she responds tersely and often in an annoyed voice), given her a few gifts, written friendly e-mails telling her that as bad as things are we could still work them out, and done lots of little things around the house to try to help her out.

Dr. Harley wants me to keep up the pressure on the OP, but the OP reports everything I do to my wife and she responds by getting angrier with me which manifests itself in ignoring me, taking my son away from me without telling me what she is doing and disappearing for the whole day, trying to get the step children to ostracize me, etc.

So you see there is a dilemma here. My wife sees me as the enemy, not as someone trying to preserve their marriage by breaking up the affair.

I understand that I cannot control what she thinks, but my actions certainly affect her and the exposing is bring about a lot of negative reactions from her.

Hiker,

You offered the following reasons why you didn’t think it would work out if the FWS came back.

[color:"blue"] 1. You can't live with the vision of your WS having sex with someone else. [/color]
This is about you and only you can fix this.

[color:"blue"]2. You don't think you can ever trust the WS again. [/color]
This is about you with their support. If they are demonstrative of truth then why couldn’t you ever trust them again. If they have done the hard work to figure out the “why’s” of their sick behavior then couldn’t you trust them after a long period of success through trust and verify?

[color:"blue"]3. There were multiple A's and it seems impossible to cure the problem. [/color]
I hear you here but people with problems of the mind change all the time. Recovered addicts and improved cases of mental disorders abound in life; it’s just not easy for them and requires dedication, support, and tough love to work through.

4. [color:"blue"] Your friends and family can never accept the WS after what has happened. [/color]
You think? Well, everyone in my family realizes that people make mistakes. If it’s corrected behavior then it was a mistake. If it’s something that continues on forever it’s what they are. There’s a difference to me and them. Besides they are formulating their opinions, in large part, on what you tell them and how you feel.

All the reasons that you listed for the WS not coming back don’t matter do they? If they aren’t back they aren’t back and there is nothing to work on.

The only thing you can do at that point is work on yourself and maybe do a plan A at the beginning if they will allow you to have that interaction.

Otherwise it’s plan B for a while then lifetime plan B which is really plan D.

The key here for you is YOU. You are the only thing that you can control so my advice to you is to work on that.

Be the H that you would want to have if you were a W. Be the partner that is good for ANYBODY. Be someone that you are proud of and always continue to work on yourself.

If it doesn’t work out with the one that you are with you only have you in the end. Take this time to work on yourself so that at the end of the day weather they come back or not you know that you have value and learned from all of this.

Best regards,
Plank.

Have you told your two step children?

Exposed to everyone under the sun including anyone you can dig up as a contact for OM?

Well, Plank, that's a touchy situation. Are they old enough to understand and handle it? Yes (17 and 19). But there are a lot of family members who would consider such an action on my part as being very inappropriate. Some would say, "Are you trying to turn the kids against their mother?"

It would definitely be a serious LB and lose me a lot of respect from those who are currently supporting me.

On the other hand, they will certainly hear the truth eventually because enough people have been told that it is inevitable.

With regard to my "reasons" post, I should have written "reasons why it MIGHT not work . . .etc."

I wasn't stating views on my personal situation, just trying to establish why the marriage might not survive the affair even if the WS comes back. In the reasons for the WS, the idea is that they may want to come back but see these things as insurmountable obstacles to reconciliation.

The reasons become a self fullfilling prophecy if either person believes them to be true.

I realize my FWW has never accepted the fact that I would forgive her.
She has said you will never forgive me so we might as well get a D.
She has not shown remorse. How do I forgive? Now I haven't forgiven because she hasn't shown remorse. She hasn't shown remorse because I will never forgive her.

Now the prophecy has been fullfilled. I never forgave her but the real question is why.

If the FWS or the BS knows this to be true. It is true because your perception is your reality.

Hiker,

I have no idea what you are thinking by not telling your children the truth about what is happening in their own lives. By being silence with respect to your WW’s A and the real reasons for the trouble in your M, you become an accomplice with your WW in deceiving your children about the true state of things. If you don’t mind lying for WW or don’t care about misleading your children by omission, then continue doing what you are doing.

Your children are way old enough to face this truth. Children are not stupid, and when they figure it out, they will be disappointed that you misled them, or that you did not respect them enough to tell them what is really going on. This is not just about you and WW. This is about them too. It is their lives too that are involved. I believe it is very cruel of you to keep them in the dark.

Second, telling your children will help WW come out of her fantasy sooner. The Harleys recommend it, as do most posters here who’ve had experience with this. Your WW will have to explain to the children why she prefers her fantasy over the stability of the family. It will not be fun. And it is not your job to protect your WW from the consequences of her adultery. You become an enabler when you do so. There is nothing wrong with telling your children the truth.

Lastly, those friends and family members who may not approve of you telling your children the TRUTH, are not marriage experts, nor have they thought about the moral implications of misleading by omission your own grown children.

I think your are making a big mistake by not telling your children the TRUTH, both from an practical point of view, i.e., as a way to help your M and from a moral point of view.

You need to MAN UP and do the right thing here.

God Bless.

This is an interesting point. I was "raked over the coals" in depositions for telling my children that the reason I was D their father was because I believed, based on evidence and TWO confessions that he was having an affair. I also told them when he decided to deny the affair that while he had admitted to me there was an affair he now was saying he just made that up because he thought it was what I wanted to hear. The lawyer for H said this made me an unfit mother, my children that I had this conversation with are 18, 16, and 14. I have not told the 5 year old anything accept that because Mom and Dad are having some very difficult problems we would be living apart. I felt honesty with the older kids was not only best but my only choice. If I am leaving a 20 year marriage there better be a reason that is beyond just I am unhappy. I wouldn't want my kids to think I would walk away even from a difficult marriage without just cause. I was in an abusive realtionship and worked very hard to save our marriage. The affair did me in. i felt my kids deserved to know. When I told them this they all said that they too had thought he was having an affair. They knew timing etc. without me saying a word. They are very perceptive. Now that we are months into this, their dad is saying he didn't have the affair that he just told me these things, and explained away all the questions, they at times say they believe him and I just have decided to tell them that it is important for them to build their relationship with him and that I have explained to them why I am divorcing him. I have tried to help them understand that they just need to focus on healing their realtionship with him and I will work on me. Because of the abuse, they know we are doing the right thing. It is still hard for them to accept what he has done. I understand because it is hard for me as well. I do know that in the long run they will have a peace about it as they already do to a certain dgree. I am still very much in grief mode myself. Sorry to ramble.

Hiker,


Since when is telling the truth a LB? I don't think that's a DJ, AO, IB, or SD.

If your family and WW can't stomach the real truth then they shouldn't live the life that offends them.

The kids deserve to understand that their mother's lunatic behavior is attributed to something that is not about them. I'm worried that what ever ugliness befalls them from all of this, they will carry it around with them thinking it could be thier fault. Not good for them.

EMN.

hiker

you CAN go back and change the title of this thread:)

Post deleted by Hiker45

Honestly Eav...sometimes it just doesn't work.

YOU CAN go back and begin living your life NOW.

not all marriages survive.

we hope most do.

not all will.

and that is reality when the evil that is adultery is poisoning famlies in this country,

but not all WS come back...and NOT ALL BS WANT THEIR WS BACK...if they are not repentant and not changing their adulterous situations. I would under no conditions accept a WS back without a 110 PERCENT COMMITTMENT TO MARRIAGE AND NC ENTHUSIASTICALLY FOR LIFE! but then, I lived this and lived thru this all the way...and see how it is on the other side...when a WS is NEVER REPENTANT...I reclaimed my life and while I have to deal with a wayward father, I do not have a WS anymore. Never in my lifetime will I ever be with somebody I have to look behind my back with. Life is too short.