T/J MEDC - I have a non-MB question to ask you. Would you mind sending me an email please to my address below? Thanks MEDC.

2much,

Your last post says quite a lot. But one thing that draws my attention is that there are some incongruities and many assumptions. Without trying to sound too critical, one of the biggest mistakes that both the WS and BS make in this process of trying to recover the marriage is to automatically assume something - a thought, behavior or reaction - on the part of the other spouse. You have your H already painted into a pretty small corner. You haven't given him much breathing room. Unless you are a licensed psychologist, don't try analyzing your H so much. If you will stop doing that, it will help BOTH of you tremendously.

rainbowbeliever,

why did you delete all your posts?

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I dont want to bother you, but, you sound like a victim here... even Im a WS I want to be objective in this, and even and A is a choice I think building a marriage on proof of an affair is an issue for both (you and your wife).

"no quiero molestarte pero suenas como una víctima de todo esto", apesar de que soy una WS trato de ser objetiva en esto y creo que aunque el tener un A es una opción (que un WS hace) el construir un matrimonio a prueba de un A es una tarea de ambos (tuya y de tu esposa)"

P,
Thanks I'll read your hx and learn

Please give feedback on assumptions/incongruities I need all the help I can get...definitely not thin skinned FYI

Not licensed psych but medical...so we think we can save the world and analyze everything:) Too bad I have 20/20 vision for others but coke bottle vision for myself

Deleted RB posts due to fear at that point that H would discover...cultural issues about sharing personal info with others his #1 no-no and always has been; got to the point that I figured it was worth the risk for my sanity. Yep, I felt if he could share himself 1:1 I could anonomously share my plight to fight for M and if he won't understand that then...


I apologize, never intended to threadjack!!!!

tear,

I still don't know what you are trying to get at. I probably am the victim in the sense that something was done to me that was not my choosing. I don't think of it in those terms. I see myself in a struggle to find something right in our futures and feel like I am doing that all alone. I feel that gemela still has not made the decision that she will give her all for the M. She is playing a waiting game for reasons she won't explain to me. In fact, she explains nothing to me. We are not allowed to talk about the A, our M, nothing. The weather is always the same here: instense sunshine throughout the day with highs in the upper 40's / lower 50's with darkness prevailing through most of the night. So talking about the weather is pretty boring too. We did have a severe sand storm yesterday. That was interesting. We talked about that for a couple of minutes.

I am not sure what you are saying that I should do. I think I have given gemela more than enough opportunities. She is the one who is not all that interested. She needs to take time to decide what she wants in her life. She can always come back to us if she decides to. It is her choice. I am not running her off. But for her to stay in this marriage, we simply cannot continue to pretend the A never happened. We have to understand it, what caused it and, more importantly, what gemela really truly wants with her future.

pio
IMO you havent solved main reason that is keeping away from gemela (emotional way)
I dont know you, but you show you as a practical man, objective you always wanto go to the point. (no te gustan los rodeos) and I think since D day you have been more far from gemela than before...
Como no tengo mucho tiempo ahora, te escribiré en español,,,, a veces no digo las cosas muy suavemente asi que espero no te moleste lo que te voy a decir, es solo mi punto de vista.

Ok, tu tienes algo más de 40 años eso es seguro, el OM es menor de 30 y de alguna manera te sientes en desventaja, yo tengo 33 y puedo decirte que eso que ves como desventaja podría ser hasta una ventaja,, solo no actues como el papá de gemela... Sé que te mantienes en buena forma así no veo problema alguno.
Por que te comento esto? bueno, jamás me contestaste nada sobre la edad, y creo que internamente la diferencia de edades entre gemela y tu podrías pensar que influye en su comportamiento y en cómo te gustaría a tí que ella se comportase.

En mi matrimonio la mayoría de las decisiones las he tomado yo, porque soy dominante y ahora que ya no puedo con todo me estoy quejando, eso esta mal... yo misma construí mi relación de esta forma y ahora no me gusta... creo que en tu caso tú eres el dominante y has sobre protegido a gemela... ella no es una niña y sería bueno que la dejes tomar sus decisiones por si sola y algunas otras de común acuerdo.

Me da la impresión de que estas justificando elque tu matrimonio pueda terminar por el comportamiento de alguien que ahora no esta bien emocionalmente hablando... Un affair es como una enfermedad y puede ser incluso obsesivo... uno sabe que está mal, uno siente que no debe hacerlo, y sin embargo lo hace,,, por que? porque creemos que nos está ayudando a satisfacer ciertas necesidades que nuestro esposo o nuestra relación no nos la da... En mi caso fue atención. Sentía que mi esposo no me hacía el menor caso,, y el OM me llamaba hasta 5 veces al ´día.... me hacía sentir bien... Por lo general las mujeres nos llevamos por la parte emocional más que por la física, es decir no queremos acostarnos con el tipo, queremos que nos diga cosas bonitas, y claro lo otro puede darse ya que estamos bien involucradas...
Sé que has tenido paciencia con gemela,,, la mayoría de los hombres no la habrían tenido si alguien te dice "no te amo, nunca te he amado" eso es muy duro.. Pero hay cosas que creo que aún no has podido realizar antes de dejarle todo en las manos de alguienque no está bien ahora (gemela)

Creo que no has sabido comunicarte con ella, entrar en sus emociones, por que no te dice todo loque siente? cuál es tu reacción cuando ella te cuenta algo que no te agrada? te enojas? la agredes verbalmente? te quedas callado? te desquitas con algo?

Dime cómo ha cambiado piojito su relación con su esposa desde su D day que ha hecho para mejorar la relación, para estar más cerca de ella? , la llevaaste a festejar su cumpleaños a otro sitio para pasarla bien cierto? pero las cosas no estaban bien piojito, prueba de ello es que te molestó el hecho de que ella estuviera comprando la pulsera.

Que hacías antes del D day que ahora ya no haces? por ejemplo, si antes la regañabas o la presionabas por algo y ahora ya no lo haces.. que has hecho en concreto... además de tolerale sus mentiras posteriores al D day de las veces que seguía teniendo contacto con el OM...

Como WS te puedo decir que cuando mi esposo se puso violento, y estando borracho me llamó puta... me dieron muchas ganas de llamar al OM, pero no lo hice.. el punto es que puedes hacer mucho para ayudarla a que saque a OM de su mente... cierto que de ella va a depender, pero el punto es que tu cubras lo que ella cree que el OM cubría en ella.

Que hay de la intimidad? cómo se llevan en ese aspecto? tu dices que todo ok, e incluso has tolerado lo de la enfermedad que te contagió le has preguntado si le gustaría intentar algo nuevo? la conoces en esa área... hablan de eso sin tabúes... te prestas al diálogo?

No se trata de que hagas lo que hacia el OM, sabemos que OM no sirve, y es un hombre por el que no valdría la pena ni un centavo.. ni una lágrima tuya ni de gemela... solo que tu esposa no se ha dado cuenta, y probablemente no le has ayudado a que lo descubra....

Le dijiste de tu investigación del OM donde supiste que había tenido otras relaciones similares a la de ellla?

Sé que arreglaste tu horario para estar más tiempo con ella, pero dime el tiempo que pasas con ella es de calidad? no importa la cantidad...

Es fácil hablar y aconsejar pio, lo sé... es más dificil actuar y dar sin esperar, y /o aceptar al otro tal como es...

Algunas preguntas que te hice antes no las respondiste.. ¿por qué crees que gemela dejó no solo a su familia, sino incluso su país, para estar contigo? yo creo que ella te ama, y ahora está "como drogada" y esa droga es el OM... y como los drogadictos necesitan apoyo,no que los dejes solos en lugares donde pueden conseguir la droga.. Y si con todo el apoyo posible el drogadicto no quiere aceptar que tiene un problema y que está en sus manos superarse de ese vicio, pues entonces ya será responsable de sus actos..

Yo creo que no todo ha sido perfecto de tu parte , sin dejar de lado que has hecho mucho... un año no? pero cuántos de esos 12 meses realmente fuero de recuperaci´´on?

Si durante años tu relación con ella fue de cierta forma, es dificil modificarla... pero el cambio empieza con uno mismo...

Sabes por que gemela ya no escribe? no crees que pudiera ser porque tu podrías ver lo que ella escribe? bueno eso me pasa a mí,, hay cosas que se que mi esposo no toleraría ni leerlas y que no las entendería y conozco su reacción y sé que eso me hace distante de él

Antes mi esposo era mi mejor amigo, luego la vida diaria, nuestros trabajos, nos distanciaron y bueno dejó de serlo.. ahora yo quiero volver a ser como era antes con él y que seamos los mejores amigos como antes... ¿crees que gemela te tiene confianza? ¿eres su amigo? ¿por qué?

piojito, no te des por vencido... recuerda lo hermoso que viviste con ella, lo que te enamoró de ella.. y haz de cuenta que esta enferma... la dejarías por una enfermedad?..

Sé que soy una WS así que solo tengo una idea del daño que hacemos a quienes amamos.. pero todos merecemos una segunda oportunidad...
Lucha por gemela... y si en definitiva tu sientes y has hecho TODO cuanto has podido por mejora tu relación pues entonces si,,, deciden que harán con sus vidas... pero no le dejes la decisión a ella,no así como está ahora.. enferma...

tear,

I haven't read all of your post and am not going to either. Whatever happened before the A could have been resolved in many different ways. An A is never justified for any reason. Whether I have changed or not or if I feel I have is fairly unimportant. The only thing that really matters for gemela is how SHE feels.

She finally told me this AM that she did indeed sleep with OM in the house with the girls there. She has denied this all along until today. She has given me various reasons for lying. This is just one example. There are other things she has lied about and continues to lie about.

The biggest problem we have at the moment is not the A but the fact that she cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything. Most people here believe that to recover a marriage requires the WS to be completely open and transparent. Gemela is none of that. She continues to lie or bend truth to her convenience. The fact is she could say she was over the A and completely in love with me and I would never know if it were true or not. Until gemela learns that telling the truth is important no matter what the consequences, we have zero hope. She told me today she was afraid to tell me the truth. I asked if she was afraid I would harm her in any way. She said no. She said she was afraid of hurting me. She screwed the pool boy in my own house under the noses of my daughters. How are are few words going to hurt me? Gemela has no respect for my feelings whatsoever.

We cannot have a marriage based on secrets, lies and half-truths. I would be willing to work on a lot of things to try to save the marriage but I refuse to live with continual lies. Gemela says what she wants to say. The truth has no meaning to her.

P,
Does G have a twin brother? I think I'm married to him. Same exact issues. Sorry, I know you knew but the validation still hurts...you could be making some headway if she has disclosed this...

Can relate to you feelings about honesty...I am there now and have been for past 3 months...no real headway...for every truth there are 1/2 doz lies that I am aware of and ??? more I don't. This goes way beyond A's. Did the lies pre-exist the A for G? If not, there is hope.

Feeling your pain,
2much

The truth is I don't know. Someone else asked me that yesterday and it seemed like such a strange question because I had never thought about it. I do think she has always had the habit of telling white lies but I don't think she has ever told many bad ones. I think I understand now why I got so mad at her in the shopping mall last Wednesday. I had decided to go to the mall to get a new VHS to replace one that is acting up. WW had not mentioned any need to go to the mall and had recently been. I invited her to go with me just to be together. We walked into the mall and the Sony store was almost at the entrance we went in. I started to go into the store and she said she would be in the shop next door. I got the VHS and left and found her in the passage. She said she was hungry. So we went so she could get food. Then she said she wanted to go to another shop for something. I just got madder and madder. I never said anything though. What got me made was that the only reason for going to the mall was to get the VHS and yet she wouldn't even go in the store with me. Suddenly the mall trip that was only supposed to be for me became all about her and what she wanted to do. I told her this yesterday and she replied that she hated to go into electronics stores. I told her that I hated to go into her shoe stores but I did it anyway because I knew it was impportant to her and I loved her so I just suffered it.

I asked her if the IC told her that she should lie to me and she said no. The IC tells her to tell the truth. She doesn't know why she still lies to me. She says she doesn't understand why I want to ask about the affair and doesn't see the point of discussing it. I told her that, if she would simply tell me the truth, I could deal with it and let it go. Now she is starting to make more excuses. Her big excise now is that she wasn't thinking and she was out of control. Temporary insanity. Although it is probably true, she seems to use it as a panacea. "The devil made me do it."

I do think that time apart is about our only option left. We have agreed to a five month NC separation. I will fly her back to spend Christmas here with the girls. We will talk then and decide what each of us wants. I told her I refuse to maintain house just so the DDs have a "family". Both of us really need to want this marriage. I'll be honest. I am quickly losing interest. This has gone on way too long. Maybe the five months will give me some time to heal and ease the pain a bit and allow me to look at this in a better light. I don't know. I just can't keep going like we are going.

Pio, you've got much bigger fish to fry than hand holding in the mall. I don't see anything wrong with her looking in the next store while you are on a mission to buy a VCR or wanting something to eat while you are there. As Melody Lane has told me many a time "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

You say "Suddenly the mall trip that was only supposed to be for me became all about her and what she wanted to do."
What- look next door and get a bite to eat? Maybe I'm missing something but this sounds a tad selfish Pio.

I also want to comment on your post about her dishonesty and how she said she was afraid to tell you the truth. I could kind of relate to what she was saying. I'm just throwing MY thoughts and feelings out there for you to ponder, they may or may not be similar to what Gamela feels. There were many times I was afraid to tell my husband the truth about some things and I asked myself why. I know he would never hurt me physically, that thought never crossed my mind. Yet I was afraid to tell him some very insignificant things. Why? Because I knew he would get angry and I felt his reaction was inappropriate so it became easier to tell a white lie.

I have thought about this a lot today and kept asking myself, what was I so afraid of? I'm not a mouse and I will push back if pushed. Soooooo . . . . the conclusion I came to was that I felt he cut me down when he got angry about such stupid, insignificant things. I feel it is disrespectful and condescending and it made me feel very lousy. I felt an unbalance of power. I felt more like a subordinate than a peer and I HATED it with all my might. I am a gentle soul and I do not like to be yelled at by someone who professess to love me. I tried as best I could to tell him his angry outbursts really bothered me, but he was just wired that way. Eventually his angry outburts were countered with mine.

So I offer you this. I don't know how you and Gamela interacted in the past, BUT did you have angry outbursts when she told you something you didn't like? Have YOU changed so that Gamela feels safe telling you the truth?

Pio,

I haven’t posted on your thread for some time because I haven’t been sure about how my input might or could help. I did have a solution to the whole bread/knot/pissing in the shower thing but (wisely) decided to keep it to myself.

I have a feeling you and gemela are travelling separate paths right now towards a similar but not quite same goal. I just want to toss out a couple of thoughts:

I.
“She finally told me…” OK – learning the truth is hard. I guess what is even harder for you is that she did not say this some time ago. But are you focusing on the wrong thing here? She did tell the truth. There is one lie less today. Maybe – just maybe – she is finally starting to open up and becoming capable of telling the truth. Maybe the wrong reaction from you will curb that ability.

II.
So now the separation is on a schedule. Is this a scheduled “Plan B” with a timeline? Are you two possibly just postponing your issues? Taking a sabbatical? You have the flight dates and you have already told her she is coming back for Christmas. Sorry but I don’t see how this will benefit your marriage. I can see it benefit your decision to separate. Somehow I have always thought the part in Plan B that got the wayward spouse back was the threat of losing the betrayed spouse. In your case Mrs. Pio and you know you have 5 months to adapt to a certain level of self-pity (or recovery – I wont deny that is possible) and the make a decision around Christmas.

Infidelity is serious stuff with serious consequences. One of those consequences can be divorce and a consequence of that is very often that one parent does not see the kids for birthdays and holidays. So why are you setting a timed fuse on your case? Please don’t say you’re “doing it for the DD”. If that were the case then using the same logic you would stay with G “for the kids”.

I had noted that in your initial Plan B letter you left her unlimited time to make up her mind. As contradictory as it sounds I wasn’t happy with that. I really think that in order for Plan B to have an increased chance of success you have to get the message clearly over that while you are open to reconciliation on certain terms then also you are working on moving on and that might mean your emotions change – thereby your willingness to reconcile. This places the pressure of deciding to reconcile squarely on the WS but giving you the option of accepting an offer of reconciliation.

III.
How will enforced separation benefit your marriage?
I offer another option: Send her to Bahrain to stay at a hotel for 2 weeks. Give her unlimited and unmonitored access to phones and enough money to get to Mexico or UK. Tell her that 14 days from now she either comes back to commit to the marriage and to work on R or she doesn’t. Frankly I think you will get the same result as the 5 months in Mexico will offer you. If she does come back I once again strongly recommend you two seek MC with the Harley’s.

IV.
I’ve told you previously I often use proven business method to solve personal issues. What if this was a project at work? Have you sat down with G and made your thoughts very clear? The options and consequences? And if she doesn’t seem to react have you considered your method of getting the points across might not be working? Just like when I am giving an employee an important assignment or final warning: I get the message across in more than one way and have then recite it back in their words. Only when I am certain both have the same view do I move on.

Pio,

The Chirstmas revisit is a new wrinkle, no?

I am with the bigger on this one. And also on your Plan B statement that you will wait for her decision.

She has to feel there is something to loose and not view this as a five month junket to Mexico and/or the UK.

As to trip to the mall, your point about WW going next door and then wanting something to eat is what? I missed it.

BTW, hey Bigger.

I think the Christmas visit is a mistake too. Basically it is not fair to you. Gemela can just have her visit in Mexico and have fun, fun, fun. Meanwhile you have the responsibility for the family.

By the way, I think you hit the nail on the head ie the no peace in the Middle East thing.

Christmas visit was always on the table. Our agreement was she go to Mexico indefinitely but I would bring her back for Christmas and then return her back to Mexico after Christmas. That is still the working plan. We will talk about where we both are emotionally at Christmas but there is no commitment that she come back to stay then.

I am not sure why I got angry about the mall thing but I definitely did. This always seems to happen. When we take DDs to the mall, they want to go to the amusement park so we take them. When we get there, WW always tells me she wants to go look at something or even just go to the toilet. She will show up an hour later. Meantime I cannot leave the kids. I am stuck. There is never any POJA about the mall. Gemela does whatever she wants. If she had just gone into the video store with me, I think everything would have been fine. But it is like nothing I am interested in doing has any importance for her. I can't begin to imagine how many hours I have spent looking for shoes (size 7 1/2). I always do it with a smile.

I have no idea what she will do or feel in Mexico. I plan to use the next few months to be a full-time father and work on sewing up this gaping wound in my chest. Gemela and I have made no promise to each other. Our only agreement is visitation with the kids.

She is starting to say some of the right things. She says her A may have been fantasy. She says OM may not have been the prince she thought he was. It does look like she is making personal progress. But, as everyone says, it is actions that count - not words.

As believer has said before, it looks like I am now the one impeding progress.

I did tell her though that if she does restart her A with OM that the marriage is definitely over. She is well aware of the consequences of contacting OM.

Shattered,

The mall is a symptom - not a problem. it is an incongruity that I cannot reconcile. I mention it exactly to open myself up to scrutiny. I am not venting the mall thing - I am trying to understand it. Thanks for your input. Maybe it is selfish. I have always thought of myself as unselfish in the M. I have always put gemela first. Maybe I am just now trying to find a better balance. I don't know. I will gladly accept more criticism.

I can appreciate your feelings about not wanting to talk about hurtful things. As a BS, it is also important for me to understand them. Up til now, gemela has maintained a thick curtain wrapped around the A. For me, I need to be able to know more about it to allow me to cope with it. I admit that knowing little details is crazy on the surface. I asked gemela last night what they had to eat the first night he came over to the house. What difference does that make? But she did answer and that meant so much. yes maybe she finally is starting to tell some of the truth. I need to give that positive reinforcement. I totally agree.

I am not upset about the fact that I just found out for sure that OM came over to the house. In my heart I always knew because it is the only thing that made sense. For it to have happened any other way would have been totally out of character for gemela. Now she has told me something that fits with what I believe her to be and I mean that in a good way. Just two weeks ago I asked about OM in the house because I told her I did read her post on MB. She told me another lie that she wrote it just to get a reaction out of me. Most BS's get to ask the WS about the A. Most WS's are open and transparent. My WW is totally dark about the A and that, IMO, has made it very difficult to cope.

Now the problem is that her credibility is totally shot. She lies so easily that I will never know for sure what is the truth and what is a lie. I asked her to help me know how I could tell. She doesn't know either. She admits it is a problem for both of us.

"Most WS's are open and transparent."

HUH????? I haven't seen any.

I think one of your biggest problems is your location. You can't do a Plan B. Everything is very difficult.

I am talking about WS's in recovery. Is my assumption wrong? I thought SAA said that it was important for the WS to be transparent.

Most are not transparent for quite a long time. It would be nice if they were.

Usually Plan B does the trick.

Poor Lebanon. And just when they got rid of Syria. Do you know how much revenue Syria has given up over leaving Lebanon? Now that reveune will go elsewhere. Peace in the Middle East is an oxymoron until someone can find a way to make peace profitable. The only downside is that war is a competitive business. What is needed is government subsidies. People getting paid for doing nothing. That may be the answer. In effect, it is already being done - just not on a wide enough scale.