Yes boss. I guess you read that if you sent me an email I have not read it. Go ahead and beat me up here on the board. I can take it.

Does that go for me as well?

Right, here goes.

I think you are quite proud of gemela's too much luggage and too much buying stuff. Quite a lot of affection comes through the stories.

Grownup asked this a while ago and you dodged the issue just like you're dodging it now. Are you equal partners, is gemela your intellectual equal and if she isn't does it matter to you? If it doesn't, fine, but I bet it matters to her. All your posts portray gemela as a selfish, shallow, slightly stupid woman. I'm not buying it. And if it IS true, what exactly do you get out of your marriage.

I want to take everyone back to when Pio was at about six to eight months in Plan A. This is the time frame BTW where Dr. Harley says to abandon Plan A and move to Plan B. Pio was encouraged, even chastised for thinking of leaving Plan A in the dust of WW's A. He stuck with it. It is obvious now that for his own emotional health, he stayed with Plan A much too long.

Then comes the discovery of the love cards that WW received from OM. We can all laugh about it and demean OM as BoyToy or whatever, and Pio even saw humor in cards and OM's pic, but the fact remains that the discovery had to cut deep into Pio and hurt very much. He earlier had learned that OM had been with WW in Pio and WW's bed. If I remember correctly from Pio's websie (and bear in mind what has surely happened to my memory in the last few weeks) OM talked to DD1 and even shared with her how much he loved her mom. Now, I'll tell you, if my OM had told that to one of my adult sons, let alone a minor child, I would have gone to the UK and left with OM's head in a basket. Now folks, put away the lumber. This is a metaphor. Simile? Analogy? Symbolism?

My point is, let's cut Pio some slack. Let's not forget who had the A and put this entire sorry mess in motion. Let's worry a lot more about WW, her actions and her burying her hand in the sand rather than how Pio cajoles WW to have her luggage conform to international flying rules and regulations.

Okay, here is my MB take. Put away the lumber; you will never convince me otherwise. This stuff about WS having affairs because their EN's weren't being met is a bunch of cow hockey. At any point in time, in the overwhelming majority of marriages, there is at least one spouse who has EN's that are not being met. Moreover, there are plenty of healthy marriages in which a spouse cheats. I subscribe to the Frank Pittman theory. If a spouse wants to shake up their marriage, burn the house down. It will be less expensive and hurtful in the long run. He also puts the blame for the A squarely on the shoulders of the WS. Imagine that folks.

2much, sorry about the T/J.

Do you have your own thread going?

And btw Bigger, who the heck are you? Do I know you? I don't think so. And you claim you brought me over to MB? What the heck is MB anyway?

I'd be interested in the intellectual thing too.

I work with 10 engineers.

ToddAC,

Either one of us has had the potato on full blast for too long. I am certain you are the same guy I digitally met some time ago. Maybe his twin brother? Well, if I didn’t pull you over on this site (MB) that’s one thing off my conscience.

Totally agree the blame for the A is squarely on WS shoulders. The decision not to leave the marriage is however on both spouses shoulders. P always had the prerogative of walking away. He chose to stay and take on the fight knowing full well it would be hard.

Totally 100% agree on the inappropriateness of both OM and WW of involving the DD. I’ll even weave you a basket for the head.

The amount of pain a BS is expected to bear when in Plan A is tremendous. There are “classic” cases here on MB (Marriage Builders for you ToddAC) where people have stuck to Plan A long after the majority of posters scream for Plan B. Mainly because the BS have been getting consultation from Dr. Hartley (your host here ToddAC) telling them to stick to Plan A. Remember DazedandConfused? I don’t think many husbands could carry the cross placed on his shoulders.

I have told Mr. piojitos this: I don’t think he stayed in Plan A too long. I think Mr. and Mrs. P stayed in limbo too long playing emotional turkey with who went to Mexico and who goes home. Now they have finally moved on from that emotional plateau. I’m just encouraging him to stay away from the next plateau and move on.

Todd...no need for apology...I am the t/j'er. Used to have my own thread but had been at a stand still and didn't feel worthy of advice since no matter what I did nothing changed and I wasn't ready for Plan B. Not to mention my sitch is not the typical one time A scenario. Some of the seasoned MBers have alluded to what problem do I have that I would tolerate such behavior...that was not exactly the support I was looking for since I thought the whole point of MB was to try to do what it takes to salvage M. To me there is no point in establishing boundaries if you aren't willing to defend them...up to recently I wasn't defending. Early on I identified with Pio's attitude, sitch and humor and have followed since March 06.

I think Pio loves G but doesn't have the same type of intellectual banter he enjoys with Todd and others. I think G requires lots of reassurance, admiration and appreciation of her desirablility...I sense that Pio despite all his complaining about all her vanity enjoys and appreciates her beauty but maybe doesn't communicate it the way G needs it. No excuse for an A but an opportunity to rebuild if desires. I also think Pio is likely one who likes to control situations or at least guide/direct things/plan/responsible/fixer etc. G seems from description to be more of a free spirit, spontaneity and adventure. I bet over the years they both moved further in their own directions and are now more of at the ends of the spectrums vs. together in the middle. Think they need something to bring them back to common ground aside from the DD's... good thing all this insight huh? Where has it gotten me?? JMHO

Bigger,

I remember you now. You are married to the woman from Colombia right? You are moving back to North Carolina from somewhere. Anyway, sorry...

When the tumor itself was playing with my memory, I had almost zero short term memory. I could recall the license plate numbers from my first car but I would have a conversatin with someone and two minutes later I wouldn't remember what we had talked about. Now, it seems to be a combination of short and mid term memory. I guess you were locked in a vapor lock in the mid term. Anyway, sorry for the confusion. Didn't mean to slight you.

Pio, are you in OK?

2many,

Were the DD's all the same OW or unique OW in each case?

How old are your kids?

Did you see any hints of this behavior in WH while in the courtship/engagement stages?

I thought affairs happened because of failure of WS to 'protect' weaknesses....

and that's why it has nothing to do with BS....and why affairs can happen whether EN are being met, or not!

Well I think they happen because WS did not have, or took down boundaries that would have kept their behavior in check. For instance, the first time my WW went into OM's house with him while his BW, my WW's BF was away on a trip, it was a boundary a prudent person would have kept intact. But don't you know by then she was madly in love with OM. Boundaries don't matter when you have met your soulmate. Thirty six yearz of marriage? Bah, wasted on the man you thought was your soulmate. But then,as Kiwi said, I am Mr. Potato Head.

But regardless of boundaries, affairs occur because of something wrong with the WS, not the BS or the relationship. As Shirley Glass (think it was Glass, who knows at this point, lol), the WS thinks he/she is not getting enough from the marriage; it turns out that the WS is typically not giving enough to the marriage. My sitch is a little unusual but not unique unfortunately. I did Plan A for four months and moved on. My kids are "grown" and I didn't have the considerations that Pio has. I admire what he has done. BTW, he didn't stay only for DD's; he truly loves Gemela. That much is obvious to me.

For his sorry part, OM is a serial predator who exclusively targets married women. My WW is nothing more than a notch in his belt. She still thinks that OM considers her to be special. That is his special talent I suppose. Each victim is made to feel special long enough to lower their panties and hop in bed with him. He is a sick cookie. For more reference, read Pittman's description of the Philandering Man. Very insightful.

Todd,
LOL 2many!!! DDs all different OWs. Kids 10,9,6. Very short courtship but yes tons of redflags...I was one of a 2 women he was simultaneously courting but I won and thought I was special. Of course you think that they will change and blow it off to immaturity etc. You think I would have learned after my 1st M ended after 6 yrs that you can't change someone...1st H didn't want children...good thing I didn't believe him and spent 6 yr's trying to make him change his mind...left without children...18 yrs later now and he still has no children...guess it was good I didn't hang in longer huh?

Hmmmmm, tonight H agreed to counseling...1st time ever as last ditch effort to attempt recovery. I will try not to be reading into it and set up an appt for after the kids and I return from our vacation. I just hate limbo...getting to the point of needing a definite direction and committing to it. Tell me why we have to have feelings??? Oh yeah, to prevent us from permanent and irrepairable injuries...

2much and bigger, very, very good insight and replies.

Todd,



This is so, so, so, so true.

I think you know we've been married 32 years next week. We, too, had grown up children but my H was going to fight for me no matter what. He just WAS NOT going to lose me. Our sitch seemed completely and absolutely hopeless after d-day, my recent setback (how and why did I do that???????????????) just put us back a bit but not much.

The fact that he thought I was worth it really helped me.

Oh and Lunamare, correct - failure to protect weaknesses.

I forgot the number one reason why I think people have affairs. I think it is because they need external validation - IOW, from others - instead of getting it from inside.

WW referred to OM as "very charming". He "said and did the right things". For whatever the reasons why, his "admiration" of her validated her in her mind. Meanwhile, I was unable to provide her with validation. For the first time in our M, I needed to lean on her. She couldn't handle it. Nothing left for her to do but jump in bed with the philandering neighbor.

But, I'm not bitter about it or anything...

Hi Todd,

«took down boundaries» .....and failure to protect 'weaknesses'...I think it's the same...said differently

«she was madly in love with OM....met soulmate»...... unfortunely, we are made to believe in fairytales.....and many buy into 'it'...some of us....at any COST!

...maturity is looking squarily in the 'eyes' of fairytales.... and admit they don't exist.... and then see ALL that reality has to offer....which is much much more richer than any fairytale I know of!

«Thirty six yearz of marriage?».....that's 'reality' and why it can't compete with WS's 'imagination'........

....guess who will have the last laugh?......reality! ....that's why it's been said...that time is on BS's side...and ultimately....BS may have the 'last word'!

.....«because of something wrong with the WS» ....don't we all have some 'damaged goods' at various degrees?.... the 'key' is 'knowing about it'

«She still thinks that OM considers her to be special»....so, 'reality' hasn't hit them....YET!

«they need external validation».....easy to fail to 'protect' one's weakness if you don't KNOW what it is to begin with!.....the importance of 'personal recovery'......and learning what ARE our 'weaknesses'.....set needed boundaries to avoid being 'manipulated' through our weaknesses.....

....for me, as a BS....a WS that 'looks like' my S.....could easily 'manipulate' me....he is my 'weakness'......which is why I am 'sticking' to PLAN B and N/C like a non-swimmer to a piece of wood out in the ocean! (...which in turn is why N/C between WS and OP is essential for recovery!)

....just like an alcoholic who needs to NOT go into a bar!

2much,

«you can't change someone».....right....they can...if they want!

Kiwi, «Our sitch seemed completely and absolutely hopeless after d-day».....that's why 'hope' is important...and avoid outguessing 'future'....the human spirit should not be underestimated.....I do 'believe' it can move mountains!

....I am an incorrigible OPTIMIST!

....case in point....personally I was a 'basketcase' last year.....and as some have pointed out (and I do agree).... I have come a 'long way baby!

«I'm not bitter about it or anything...».... Todd, I am sorry for your loss!

Well until I started getting questioned about it on this website, the issue of intellectual equality had never ever crossed my mind. That is absolutely true.

Do I like gemela dressing up nice? Of course. Who wouldn't. I actually was thinking it was a bit strange until our trip to Mexico last December. Then I realized even 50 year old women dressed the same way. It is just a Latin thing. Even so, during her A and considering the fact that we live in Saudi Arabia, she was dressing very inappropriately - especially for pool visits.

Yes I did stay in Plan A too long. Yes Bigger is right in that I just need to suck it up. I think I posted a long time ago that one of my greatest fears was that I might reach the point where WW wanted the M but I didn't. The only question in my mind is whether "prerogative" is really a word or not.

...now....I am up so early because I can't sleep....because I am too......excited!

way back....DS15 asked me if we could take a trip to NYC this summer..... at first I really couldn't see myself alone in NYC with my beautiful two boys.... well....the wonders of visualization.....I worked on 'it' enough to see myself.....and as one of my 'former' employers put it.... being the 'efficient, responsible, intelligent person' that I am........the three of us are off for three days to NYC this weekend!

...besides not looking too 'touristy' in the Big Apple.....any suggestions of what to 'avoid' there....HAHAHAHAHA!

lunamare, you really need to learn how to use the "quote" button.

I am not sure who got ToddAC over here but I have been trying my best to keep him off that other site. It is just too painful to see so many people basking in self-pity. Either way you look at it, you can all blame bigger for the fact that we are on this site.

Pio,

geessh! ...didn't think it was bothering that much!


done....